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Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Butterflyleo: 4:35pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
frank317: The law of cause and effect nullifies infinite regress and that is why we have an uncaused cause as the first cause. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Gggg102(m): 4:42pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: what I saw is that the universe began from a singularity which started expanding. where did you get the information of extraordinary amount of energy acting on it? |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by frank317: 5:22pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
vaxx: I really will not be patiemt enough to go through the thread as it os a long one... for now pls based om ir knpwledge that the universe was creates by an uncaused cause... can u confirm with prove that it is a singular uncaused cause? Further clarify where this uncaused cause lives and how it/he/they look like. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by budaatum: 5:23pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
The level of stupidity we resort to when we have nothing intelligent to say is just sad, and if there weren't a devil intending to derail any seeds of progress by our discussions we sure create one ourselves in the attempt to hold on to illogical positions. Ops thread set up a basis for intelligent discussion, except that he was rather ill prepared to defend his position once questioned and resorted to his usual underhandedness once accosted. Below is [url=httpbutter.iep.utm.edu/hume/]David Hume[/url] in his An Understanding of Human Knowledge, dealing with the same issues this thread posed, though, since we seem to lack the ability to comprehend our simple use of words, Hume's is likely to fly over the heads of some. In a word, if we proceed not upon some fact present to the memory or senses, our reasonings would be merely hypothetical; and however the particular links might be connected with each other the whole chain of inferences would have nothing to support it, nor could we ever, by its means arrive at the knowledge of any real existence. If I ask you why you believe a particular matter of fact which you relate, you must tell me some reason; and this reason will be some other fact connected with it. But as you cannot proceed after this manner in infinitum, you must at last terminate with some fact which is present to your memory or senses or must allow that your belief is entirely without foundation. (Hume 1955 [1748], pp. 59–60) It can be seen that butter has decided to opt for the latter, 'terminate with some fact present to his own senses', rather than admit his belief is entirely without foundation. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by vaxx: 5:28pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
frank317:The fist four page of that thread will have put paid to you question. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by budaatum: 5:34pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
vaxx:You keep making this erroneous claim, with no evidence to support it. Personally, I wish it were true. I could subjectively tell the Ferrari salesman I have a million pounds in my bank account, write a cheque and drive out of the showroom with a brand spanking new red Ferrari. The fact is that things we know, and call 'knowledge' - if you mean, "facts that are valid", in that they are statements that "correspond to reality" - are not dependant on an observer. If they, any statement made by anyone would be true if they claimed it was. 1 Like |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by vaxx: 6:19pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
budaatum:My claim can only become erroneous if your rebuttal is in anyway accurate,my evidence are tautology at best not necessarily the absolute truth, it is subjective,There is no absolute truth anywhere. Everybody validate or makes claims all the time, because each word that are used in their claims comes from just one source, you, or some other individual.Even if you have a solid scientific truth, like gravity, there is total and constant change across the entire Universe, so the parameters are never fixed. To what degree can we access the absolute truth is the question we can only tackle and not the absolute truth itself. The best way we have of doing that is through the methods of science. It does not give us direct access to absolute truths, but give us provisional truths which are better and better approximations to reality as time goes by. what we can do as of now is to depend on some tautology for is survival. and this will be consider subjective truth. Philosophers have come up with a number of different possibilities for what is true or not. There is correspondence theory, the pragmatic theory, the coherence theory, various permutations and combinations of these and other ideas. Google it and you will find many well written sources. 1 Like |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by budaatum: 6:24pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
superhumanist:Funny enough, people fail to want to consider that something must have existed for it to go bang, and which might have at that very point formed the universe as we know it. And even that which existed prior to the bang we know of itself might have come about from an even previous bang of what existed prior to that point. And who's to say that what existed prior to the bang that was prior to the bang we know of itself didn't come into existence by prior bangs ad infinitum? But no, in our arrogance we exclude that possibility and insert a godthingy in the gap instead. It wouldn't really be a problem if the god people admit they are just filling in gaps of the unknown, and if they didn't ask that those bangs be worshipped! |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Gggg102(m): 6:34pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: 1.first cause God is not based on verifiable science. 2.first cause God is only an assumption also. 3.science doesn't say anything about an extraordinary amount of energy. 4.no one knows that, you assume. 5. so is the first cause God. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Gggg102(m): 6:48pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: 1.first cause God is not based on verifiable science. 2.first cause God is only an assumption also. 3.science doesn't say anything about an extraordinary amount of energy. 4a. no-one knows that, you assume. b. and even if you want to remove randomness in the creation, it does not still mean the first cause has to be intelligent. even without randomness the first cause could be inanimate. the 'outside earth magnet' is like a programmed machine that is used to build artificial intelligence androids. it follows this in built program even without being conscious. this programmed machine although is unintelligent, creates an intelligent Android. so also, the 'outside earth magnet' has a specific 'program' it follows to create the universe. this 'program' has been part of it for eternity. the 'program' is the property of the 'magnet', so they both have always existed without a cause since the 'magnet' is uncaused. the 'magnet' is still unconscious but it does not operate based on randomness. so there is still an unintelligent first cause that can create intelligence. also for 3&4, don't forget that these things are happening outside the universe where our scientific laws don't apply. 5. so is the first cause god. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Gggg102(m): 6:54pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: why isn't the singularity/big bang the first cause then? after all, it is only the universe that had a beginning. the singularity doesn't. why do you have to add a first cause god? |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Butterflyleo: 7:00pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Gggg102: This is a diagram derived from NASA and at the very left end you see quantum fluctuations. Quantum fluctuations simply means a temporary change in the amount of ENERGY in a point in space. We are told by science that this big bang cause intense and unimaginable heat which was over 100 times the power of the sun and the universe began to expand from this singularity and began to cool down at the same time. Can you tell me an energy source known to our universe that can be over 100 times the power of the sun? 1 Like
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Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Butterflyleo: 7:04pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Gggg102: At the words in bold I already offered you the diagram to help your ignorance. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Butterflyleo: 7:05pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Gggg102: The singularity isn't the first cause because quantum fluctuations impacted the singularity. This is pretty elementary. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Gggg102(m): 7:10pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: it never said extraordinary amount of energy caused the big bang. in quantum physics, those fluctuations come come and go randomly from nothing. so it would mean something can come from nothing. the big bang caused a large amount of energy, no one says a large amount of energy caused it. science tells us we know what happened from the 1*10^-36 seconds and that is the beginning of the inflation. anything from the point of the big bang is speculation at least for now. science currently does not know what happened before the big bang and there probably isn't a before since time began with the big bang. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Butterflyleo: 7:11pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Gggg102 I will quote genesis 1:3 to you This was what the bible recorded happened AT THE BEGINNING AFTER THE SPIRIT OF GOD SAW EVERYWHERE WAS DARK AND FORMLESS AND VOID. Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. LIGHT IS ENERGY and according to science, at the beginning there was immense energy which we call QUANTUM FLUCTUATIONS which triggered the singularity to expand and become our universe. This will be probably the only time I will draw a link to both science and the bible. How did early unscientific man know that energy aka light came before the big bang? |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Butterflyleo: 7:12pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Gggg102: The diagram speaks for itself. The quantum fluctuations came before the inflation. The inflation was caused by the singularity which was acted upon by energy. Do you deny the diagram? It is right there in front of you |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Butterflyleo: 7:14pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Gggg102: At the words in bold. Are you saying NASA lied? 1 Like |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by MuttleyLaff: 7:18pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
darkchild64:Its alright this way, because that's how OP wants it. I however have noticed, from reading all your comments, so far on this thread that OP in removing the "how" complexities, so as to be intellectually undemanding has cleverly managed to challenge you to try and think about: Could anything actually exist in the universe, some powerful thing, becoming visible after being concealed, as science understands it, that is, worthy of being called "God"? darkchild64:[img]https://s1/images/HistoryUniverse.jpg[/img] I am sorry I cant, in toto, tell you exactly how "God" created the universe. Reiterating, conventional wisdom, plus science, as seen in above pic, however each give a simplified understanding of everything that happened 1 second after the Big Bang darkchild64:You not being satisfied with an answer is not an epiphany Even astronomers, are at sea, because all the stars, planets and galaxies that can be seen today, make up just 4% of the universe, whilst the rest 96% of the universe, is made of mysterious and invisible matter. These mysterious substances are called dark energy and dark matter Dark matter, which makes up 22% of the universe, is a material that has yet to be detected in the laboratory Dark energy is a gravitationally repulsive entity. Its existence is confirmed and determined to fill 74% of the universe. darkchild64:Bill Gates and Microsoft products are within almost every one's reach and/or the average IT-savvy Joe Public can easily relate to it darkchild64:"God" is the Intelligent Designer and Programmer with aspiration(s) like Bill Gates is an intelligent designer and programmer with aspiration(s) so "God", just as Bill Gates, does with building Microsoft computer software, used the "knowledge" of object-oriented programming, to create the universe darkchild64:The "method" He used? The "method" He used, purely supernatural, well, is out of this world Dumbing-down, it's among other things, a combination of writing Functions and Methods. Function or a method, as a matter of fact, is a named callable piece of code, used to accomplish a specific task and so therefore, when called, executes instructions on data "taken in", process it, and optionally return a value or result. 1 Like |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Gggg102(m): 7:28pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: @ your words in bold, the big bang caused the unimaginable heat more than 100 times the power of the sun. this heat is what began to expand from this singularity. this heat is the total energy in the universe. this energy did not cause the big bang but was caused by it. quantum fluctuations did not imply the amount of energy. it also comes from nothing , showing something comes from nothing. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Gggg102(m): 7:29pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: the extraordinary amount of energy you are showing me came after the big bang. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Gggg102(m): 7:30pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: then we might as well say quantum fluctuation is the first cause. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Butterflyleo: 7:32pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff: This was a very powerful statement from national geographic. Big bang proponents suggest that some 10 billion to 20 billion years ago, a massive blast allowed all the universe's known matter and energy—even space and time themselves—to spring from some ancient and unknown type of energy. And this is from discover magazine In late 1979, a Stanford physics postdoc named Alan Guth offered an explanation for the explosive force behind the Big Bang. Guth’s intellectual leap stemmed from theories in particle physics, which held that at extremely high energies — far higher than could ever be reached in a laboratory — a special state of matter would turn gravity upside down, rendering it a repulsive rather than an attractive force. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Gggg102(m): 7:33pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: quantum fluctuation is different from the immense energy. quantum fluctuation was before the big bang while immense energy was after the big bang. and quantum fluctuation comes from nothing. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Gggg102(m): 7:34pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: quantum fluctuation caused the big bang, the immense energy is an effect of the big bang. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Butterflyleo: 7:35pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Gggg102: I honestly do not see how you could possibly not understand a diagram right in front of you. How do you think the big bang model was gotten? How do you think NASA and their Hubble telescope got this diagram done? The singularity did not trigger itself. It was triggered by an energy which is alien to this universe. This was how theories about aliens existing outside our planet came about FYI. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Butterflyleo: 7:37pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Gggg102: Young man, quantum fluctuation IS ENERGY and for the singularity to explode and expand it needed an immense energy source, one we do not have available in our known universe for it to occur. This is the same principle that governs particle acceleration and particle accelerators. This is elementary. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Butterflyleo: 7:37pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Gggg102: Do you know what a particle accelerator is? |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Gggg102(m): 7:40pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.space.com/31192-what-triggered-the-big-bang.html&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwippsiG9rzaAhVSbFAKHWlQB7oQFjAAegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw18iSWCCzOV_A9m67eim-Yg https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.space.com/13347-big-bang-origins-universe-birth.html&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwippsiG9rzaAhVSbFAKHWlQB7oQFjABegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw2PsuMGz2rcZ9nnFxQ8CE7Q scientist thick they can pick up what happened 1*10^-36 seconds after the big bang. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Butterflyleo: 7:41pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Gggg102: I ask again, are you saying NASA lied? Answer this and win a Nobel prize |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Gggg102(m): 7:45pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: it was triggered by quantum fluctuations. the immense amount of energy is a result of the big bang. |
Re: Proof Of God. Scientifically Derived. by Gggg102(m): 7:46pm On Apr 15, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: where does it state that the singularity needed an immense form of energy. |
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