NoMoreTrolling:


BattleBorn:
Those 2 little 24v 50ah units can be recharged at C/2 rates and DO NOT NEED AN ABSORPTION PHASE, which means with 25amps, you'll be done charging in just 2 hours. If you don't mind taking a hit with your cycle life, then you can recharge at 1C during an emergency and have that battery full in just 1 hour. So instead of running your gen for 8 hours waiting for your battery to charge, you'd just need about 1 hour 30 mins of gen time to be back for another cycle.

Just curious, is there a reason why you are using 50ah for those batteries as they are indicate as 100ah on amazon?

Edit: I should have read further down before posting this...you answered the question already. Unfortunately am unable to delete the post

hisenjos:
Happy Easter all.
Our Easter Monday present from NEPA.

That's a fantastic stab you have there....i use the desktop version and i found it to be quite a good product.

earthrealm:


see what am saying here, you said the AH in 8 units 12V 200ah quanta battery is 200AH, this is wrong



lemme do it like this for a 24v system
2 x 12v x 200ah quanta vs 2x 12v x 100ah lipo4
200AH X 500 CYCLES = 100,000AH over its lifecycle cost 240k
100AH X 3000 CYCLES = 300,000AH Over its lifecycle cost 800k

you can see that the battleborn only beat the quanta x3 in terms of AH, but in terms of cost. it evens out again about 3.15x
so theoritically, one would have changed his quanta 3x, and still be at par with the lipo4 battleborns......

lastly if a bank is sized properly, it may take 10yrs for the quanta to hit 500 cycles...georged1 is a living example, his bank is 5yrs abi 7yrs and counting... so to me the only advantage the lipo4 has is the 100% DOD, and with the hefty price point, i would rather oversize my bank, than cough out the enormous sums involved in the Lipo4, Renewable energy is sweet, but at a point, if the cost outstrips utility, it becomes useless, thats why i would rather keep a meduim sized gen to top up my bank on the few days in the year where the bank dips below 50% dod...than expend funds trying to oversize my array or battery bank

I admire the LIPO4 battery, but till the prices get more pocket friendly, would they give the conventional lead acid battery a run for their money

While i am not a guru on this topic but one who hopes to lay hands on 2 100AH BB, i think the 100% DOD of BB vs 50% DOD for quanta is a big one. Apart from that, the weight of both of them and the space them consume cannot be under estimated. The idea of having many point of failure in quanta is also there[1] compare to BB which will be fewer.

Regards
1. Imagine one of the quanta batteries goes bad

ojeysky:


While i am not a guru on this topic but one who hopes to lay hands on 2 100AH BB, i think the 100% DOD of BB vs 50% DOD for quanta is a big one. Apart from that, the weight of both of them and the space them consume cannot be under estimated. The idea of having many point of failure in quanta is also there[1] compare to BB which will be fewer.

Regards
1. Imagine one of the quanta batteries goes bad

Replace all 8,

If you have the money, BB is a better choice, The OP stated his challenges with regular lead acid, which trigger his decision, we await more feedback from him, since he is using it already.

Niyi, thank you for your usual in-depth analysis.

But the matter is not as linear as put. You have to also factor in the round trip efficiency of both chemistries. For every 100AH you take out of lead acid battery you need 130AH to replenish (85% charge and discharge efficiency). Lithium on the contrary has a round trip efficiency of 99.9999% at discharge rates lower than 1C. You take out 100AH, you put back 100AH nothing more. This implies that you will require 30% more PVs, larger CC and bigger cables to charge the same battery if using Pb chemistry instead of Lithium.

I have used my LTO batteries for about 15 months without any loss of capacity. Zero degradation. The same mileage goes for the clients we installed them for. I have tons of raw data (5 minutes average sample rate) over the last 15 month which I am willing to share with anyone interested in analysing them.

The BattleBorn LifePo4 are unnecessarily expensive for that chemistry. If you are ready to do a little DIY, you can buy the same capacity at about half the BattleBorn price.

The most affordable Lithium battery money can buy is the used EV battery. It cost about the same price as the Pb equivalent and will outlast it by a factor of 2 (at least) if handled right.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Let us do this analysis differently using properly matched items.

The requirement is to power a 500watt load for 20hours and to keep things simple I have assumed any battery type can be fully recharged instantaneously without caring about how practical this is

To power my load, I can choose between

A) 8 Quanta 12v 200Ah Batteries (Useable 9.6kwh @ 50% DoD) costs NGN960K

B) 9 BattleBorn 12v 100Ah Batteries (Useable 9.6kwh @ 90% DoD) costs at least NGN3.8Million.

We need to be very careful here as one cannot use less than the stated number of batteries to power the stated load for the stated time

From here on I will just be saying Quanta vs BattleBorn for the specs above.

Quanta gives at least 700-750 cycles at 50% DoD based on empirical evidence vs BattleBorn 3,000 cycles. I will take 2 years & 730 cycles as a midpoint for Quanta performance and 3,000 cycles for BattleBorn.

If both batteries hold up, every 2 years I buy new Quanta batteries - 960K * 5 = NGN4.8Million over a 10 year period and over a 10 year period, I would have spent a prorated NGN4.6Million on BattleBorn batteries.

While the advantage is to BattleBorn, it is a rather close call and a few hard questions come to mind.

1) Would I rather spend 960K for Quanta today and replace every 2 years (assume inflation is zero) or would I rather sink NGN3.5Million in Battleborn and rest for 8 years?

2) Can I guarantee for sure that BattleBorn will give me 8 years service if I daily flog it to 90% DoD)? - we seek reviews regularly from Lithium users and they appear no better than Lead Acid so far - the common theme is failure/damage due to overcharge, overdischarge, over temperature and various other failure modes as the users and installers come to a full grasp of this new technology - it appears everyone is still learning Lithium and killing their Lithium banks prematurely seems to be a key part of the learning process

3) Standing where I am today, can I lock down my 10 year forward power needs and know that these BattleBorns I invested in will meet my power demand in 5 years time? I know I can easily upgrade every two years with Quanta.

4) On those days when I have peak demand, I can flog my Quanta and take them to 80% DoD - my expensive BattleBorns would have been fully spent and no extra power to draw out of them.

All the above assumptions can be flexed as you are inclined - people like Oga Dapsyra can tell us if his LTO batteries have maintained capacity with daily flogging to like 80% DoD and no decline whatsoever in performance.

earthrealm:


see what am saying here, you said the AH in 8 units 12V 200ah quanta battery is 200AH, this is wrong



lemme do it like this for a 24v system
2 x 12v x 200ah quanta vs 2x 12v x 100ah lipo4
200AH X 500 CYCLES = 100,000AH over its lifecycle cost 240k
100AH X 3000 CYCLES = 300,000AH Over its lifecycle cost 800k

you can see that the battleborn only beat the quanta x3 in terms of AH, but in terms of cost. it evens out again about 3.15x
so theoritically, one would have changed his quanta 3x, and still be at par with the lipo4 battleborns......

lastly if a bank is sized properly, it may take 10yrs for the quanta to hit 500 cycles...georged1 is a living example, his bank is 5yrs abi 7yrs and counting... so to me the only advantage the lipo4 has is the 100% DOD, and with the hefty price point, i would rather oversize my bank, than cough out the enormous sums involved in the Lipo4, Renewable energy is sweet, but at a point, if the cost outstrips utility, it becomes useless, thats why i would rather keep a meduim sized gen to top up my bank on the few days in the year where the bank dips below 50% dod...than expend funds trying to oversize my array or battery bank

I admire the LIPO4 battery, but till the prices get more pocket friendly, would they give the conventional lead acid battery a run for their money

The key words are properly sized and use in recommended environmental condition.

There are pros and cons for both:

By the time you consider time value of money, lithium may be at exactly the same prorated total amount as the lead acid if not higher.

However, you have not considered savings achievable in charging efficiency. Lithium is more efficient in absorbing charge while lead acid waste close to 20% of energy during charging and discharging.

Lithium can handle faster charging rate: so it's possible to get a full charge in 2hrs with public power supply or an oversized solar array (especially useful during rainy season when u don't have extended period of sunshine). This advantage enables you to need less battery capacity.

Lithium is more prone to damage from adverse conditions (heat, imbalance due to failure of circuitry etc) than lead acid battery. Lithium is expected to be placed in a well air-conditioned environment. Which inadvertently will add to the initial cost and running cost.

For small household use lead acid is better; for clients with adequate resources to throw around, lithium is more efficient and better in the long run provided it is we'll sized and runned in a conducive environment.

Lithium batteries do not require an air-conditioned environment especially for Solar Storage. Most Lithium Chemistries can be operated at temperatures between 0-45 deg Celsius without any side effect. They perform better than Pb batteries at high temperatures. They don't require temperature compensation for charging unlike Pb that must be temp compensated when charging at above 25 deg. Celsius.

In most EVs, the batteries are water cooled because they get very hot (>70 deg. Celsius) at high discharge rates. Under high acceleration the EV battery can see up to 5C discharge rate. In home Solar storage application, the battery might never go beyond 1C charge/discharge rate.

mank1234:


Lithium is more prone to damage from adverse conditions (heat, imbalance due to failure of circuitry etc) than lead acid battery. Lithium is expected to be placed in a well air-conditioned environment. Which inadvertently will add to the initial cost and running cost.

Good morning all good and solid arguments. I had earlier posted this article and based on thr exchanges above it is still relevant.

https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/2015/11/19/complete-battery-storage-comparison-and-review

earthrealm:


see what am saying here, you said the AH in 8 units 12V 200ah quanta battery is 200AH, this is wrong



lemme do it like this for a 24v system
2 x 12v x 200ah quanta vs 2x 12v x 100ah lipo4
200AH X 500 CYCLES = 100,000AH over its lifecycle cost 240k
100AH X 3000 CYCLES = 300,000AH Over its lifecycle cost 800k

you can see that the battleborn only beat the quanta x3 in terms of AH, but in terms of cost. it evens out again about 3.15x
so theoritically, one would have changed his quanta 3x, and still be at par with the lipo4 battleborns......

lastly if a bank is sized properly, it may take 10yrs for the quanta to hit 500 cycles...georged1 is a living example, his bank is 5yrs abi 7yrs and counting... so to me the only advantage the lipo4 has is the 100% DOD, and with the hefty price point, i would rather oversize my bank, than cough out the enormous sums involved in the Lipo4, Renewable energy is sweet, but at a point, if the cost outstrips utility, it becomes useless, thats why i would rather keep a meduim sized gen to top up my bank on the few days in the year where the bank dips below 50% dod...than expend funds trying to oversize my array or battery bank

I admire the LIPO4 battery, but till the prices get more pocket friendly, would they give the conventional lead acid battery a run for their money

I made a mistake with the cycle count in my earlier post, my apologies. If one cycle is using the entire battery capacity, then at 50% DOD, you should make use of the entire 200ah of the 2 quanta batteries. So your calculation below is correct:

200AH X 500 CYCLES = 100,000AH over its lifecycle cost 240k

I was of the impression before that a cycle would be from 100% state of charge to about 50% state of charge, but after breezing through cycle definitions on the web, I see that a cycle is using the entire battery capacity, albeit not all at once.

Keep in mind however that I also did my estimation for 100% DOD for cycle life, i.e 3,000 cycles @ 100% DOD. At 50% DOD, the cycle life for lifepo4 changes dramatically. According to the specs for lifepo4, please refer to graphs below, if you keep a 50% DOD, your cycle life can go up to about 10,000 cycles. I will use 6,000 cycles in my calculation to be conservative

Okay so new calculation

2 12V Quanta 200ah vs 2 BB 12v 100ah

Discharged to 50% DOD

Quanta:
Usable amphour - 200ah x 500 cycles = 100,000 ah

Battleborn
Useable amphour - 100ah x 6,000 cycles = 600,000ah

Cost of Quanta: N234K
Cost of Battleborn: N800K

So it would take about 6 PAIRS of quanta batteries, 12 quantas, to make up for the 2 Battleborn batteries if discharged to 50% DOD with a conservative 6,000 cycles for lifepo4.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Let us do this analysis differently using properly matched items.

The requirement is to power a 500watt load for 20hours and to keep things simple I have assumed any battery type can be fully recharged instantaneously without caring about how practical this is

To power my load, I can choose between

A) 8 Quanta 12v 200Ah Batteries (Useable 9.6kwh @ 50% DoD) costs NGN960K

B) 9 BattleBorn 12v 100Ah Batteries (Useable 9.6kwh @ 90% DoD) costs at least NGN3.8Million.

We need to be very careful here as one cannot use less than the stated number of batteries to power the stated load for the stated time

From here on I will just be saying Quanta vs BattleBorn for the specs above.

Quanta gives at least 700-750 cycles at 50% DoD based on empirical evidence vs BattleBorn 3,000 cycles. I will take 2 years & 730 cycles as a midpoint for Quanta performance and 3,000 cycles for BattleBorn.

If both batteries hold up, every 2 years I buy new Quanta batteries - 960K * 5 = NGN4.8Million over a 10 year period and over a 10 year period, I would have spent a prorated NGN4.6Million on BattleBorn batteries.

While the advantage is to BattleBorn, it is a rather close call and a few hard questions come to mind.

1) Would I rather spend 960K for Quanta today and replace every 2 years (assume inflation is zero) or would I rather sink NGN3.5Million in Battleborn and rest for 8 years?

2) Can I guarantee for sure that BattleBorn will give me 8 years service if I daily flog it to 90% DoD)? - we seek reviews regularly from Lithium users and they appear no better than Lead Acid so far - the common theme is failure/damage due to overcharge, overdischarge, over temperature and various other failure modes as the users and installers come to a full grasp of this new technology - it appears everyone is still learning Lithium and killing their Lithium banks prematurely seems to be a key part of the learning process

3) Standing where I am today, can I lock down my 10 year forward power needs and know that these BattleBorns I invested in will meet my power demand in 5 years time? I know I can easily upgrade every two years with Quanta.

4) On those days when I have peak demand, I can flog my Quanta and take them to 80% DoD - my expensive BattleBorns would have been fully spent and no extra power to draw out of them.

All the above assumptions can be flexed as you are inclined - people like Oga Dapsyra can tell us if his LTO batteries have maintained capacity with daily flogging to like 80% DoD and no decline whatsoever in performance.

hmmm, you make some very good points.


First off though you are overestimating quanta cycle life at 50% DOD. I have posted a graph from quanta datasheet, stating that you get 500 cycles at 50% DOD.

If you must power that 500 watt load for 20 hours straight, then we must take 8 battleborns to 100% DOD:

8 12v 200ah quanta batteries
usable amphour - 400ah x 500 cycles = 200,000ah @ 50% DOD

8 12 100ah BB
usable amphour - 200ah x 3000 cycles = 600,000ah @ 100% DOD

Cost of 8 quantas N1,000,000
Cost of 8 Battleborns N3,000,000

The ratios don't look that bad, however, at the end of the battleborns 3,000 cycles, you'd still have over 70% capacity remaining

According to Battleborn website:

Approximately 75-80% of the battery capacity will remain after 3000 cycles in applications recharging at 0.5C or lower

We have seen life spans well over 5000 cycles in our lab testing.

It's close but not really close due to the remaining capacity in the batteries.

Your concern about lithium failing is correct, hence why I chose lifepo4, a very stable lithium chemistry. Plus, things go wrong when you don't have an internal BMS.

I recon that the BB batteries would be less prone to failure as they are "smart" batteries, compared to typical lead acid batteries that just contain mechanical and chemical parts, no electronics in them to prevent failure from overdischarging and overcharging. Most people that record failure do so with lithium batteries installed without a BMS.

I like your way of looking at it from a load perspective and not just a DOD/cycle life perspective.

The cool thing I really like about this battery is that fact that you don't have to charge it to full each time. Mine have been sitting at 60% S.O.C for days now, without a care in the world.

Awesome review. To actually acquire the best handheld, we did a review on it. You can check it out https://www.fontation.com/reviews/best-handheld-vhf-radio-for-kayak/

NoMoreTrolling:


hmmm, you make some very good points.


First off though you are overestimating quanta cycle life at 50% DOD. I have posted a graph from quanta datasheet, stating that you get 500 cycles at 50% DOD.

If you must power that 500 watt load for 20 hours straight, then we must take 8 battleborns to 100% DOD:

8 12v 200ah quanta batteries
usable amphour - 400ah x 500 cycles = 200,000ah @ 50% DOD

8 12 100ah BB
usable amphour - 200ah x 3000 cycles = 600,000ah @ 100% DOD

Cost of 8 quantas N1,000,000
Cost of 8 Battleborns N3,000,000

The ratios don't look that bad, however, at the end of the battleborns 3,000 cycles, you'd still have over 70% capacity remaining

According to Battleborn website:


It's close but not really close due to the remaining capacity in the batteries.

Your concern about lithium failing is correct, hence why I chose lifepo4, a very stable lithium chemistry. Plus, things go wrong when you don't have an internal BMS.

I recon that the BB batteries would be less prone to failure as they are "smart" batteries, compared to typical lead acid batteries that just contain mechanical and chemical parts, no electronics in them to prevent failure from overdischarging and overcharging. Most people that record failure do so with lithium batteries installed without a BMS.

I like your way of looking at it from a load perspective and not just a DOD/cycle life perspective.

The cool thing I really like about this battery is that fact that you don't have to charge it to full each time. Mine have been sitting at 60% S.O.C for days now, without a care in the world.

Lolz..
@nomoretrolling you yaff win .
Before you misunderstand me...
I agree with you that Lipo4 is superb and is the future..perhaps cost is the major reason why i am very very reluctant to follow the train.
Plunking down 1m for 8units of quanta is quite draining, so the idea of putting down over 3m naira for Lipo4 batt bank is mission impossible for me...based on my purse .

Georged1's lead acid bank is clocking 7yrs...lead acid o..not Lipo4, so why use a sledge hammer to kill a fly.
Where a bugatti or gwagon can go..a well maintained hilux or lx470 can also get there

bigrovar:


Equalisation can only be enabled through the victron connect software for victron charge controllers. The particular brand of fangpuson u are using is a clone of the victron mppt bluesolar controllers. Since late 2016, victron have made it difficult to use their official victron connect software with the fangpusun clones.. Often times they inject a silent kill switch to the fangpunsun which gradually kill the controller. This happens when you try to connect the fangpusun with a victron connect software (least from november 2016).. It was because of this issue that fangpunsun starting making a "*new*" bluesolar with a new casing that comes without the victron connect port hence making it impossible for users of their product to mess with victron software and end up causing damage.

Your options are in 2 folds.

1 find online an older version of the victron connect app (I am using version 1.7) and that seem to work without issues. Once you get this you ccan connect it to the fanpusun cc with the ve usb port. The newer models without the port on the surface can still be used but it would need to be opened up.

The best and easiest option 2 is to just manually increase your absorption charge voltage to 15.5 per 12v and ensure you maintain this for close to 2 hours. This is pretty much what absorption charge does anyway. The downside is you lose automatic equalization which is suppose to happen once every 30 month at least. But trust me, you always want to be there when equalizing batteries just to keep an eye on things so option 2 might not be as bad as it sounds.

The victron app version 1.7 you use will ask for update from v1.16 to 1.17. Did you upgrade yours? I am afrasi to upgrade hence I looked for victron connect v1.4 and that's what I have been managing. I know you said the killer firmware is version 1.19 so please tell me if you upgraded to v1.17 to use your victron connect app v1.7

earthrealm:
Lolz..
@nomoretrolling you yaff win .
Before you misunderstand me...
I agree with you that Lipo4 is superb and is the future..perhaps cost is the major reason why i am very very reluctant to follow the train.
Plunking down 1m for 8units of quanta is quite draining, so the idea of putting down over 3m naira for Lipo4 batt bank is mission impossible for me...based on my purse .

Georged1's lead acid bank is clocking 7yrs...lead acid o..not Lipo4, so why use a sledge hammer to kill a fly.
Where a bugatti or gwagon can go..a well maintained hilux or lx470 can also get there

Hmmmmm,
Not so sure about the bolded o!

Namzy:

The victron app version 1.7 you use will ask for update from v1.16 to 1.17. Did you upgrade yours? I am afrasi to upgrade hence I looked for victron connect v1.4 and that's what I have been managing. I know you said the killer firmware is version 1.19 so please tell me if you upgraded to v1.17 to use your victron connect app v1.7

Let me guide you if you may, you need not be afraid to update. Go here: https://downloadapk.net/down_VictronConnect.html. Download no:17, 9, 7, 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 which is the latest version.
Now follow this sequence: You can update without a data connection, so SWITCH OFF your data connection of your phone. If you have an Android phone, go to settings, apps, find your Victronconnect app, then Data usage, background data - SWITCH THIS OFF. ( don't allow the app to run in the background.
Don't jump to v5.4 to update, do incremental updates starting from no: 17. Connect your phone to your device and when it ask for update do so with your data connection off. Work your update up until you reach v.5.4.
Very important: don't mess with the data settings unless your battery voltage and battery type. (I cannot emphasis this enough).
I am using Fangpusun 100/30 with v.1.39 and Fangpusun 702 BMV v.3.10 with no hassle.
Good luck.

Runx:


Let me guide you if you may, you need not be afraid to update. Go here: https://downloadapk.net/down_VictronConnect.html.
Download no: 22 which is VictronConnect 1.7 APK (2016-09-07). This is the update that require an update from v1.16 to v1.17. Download also no:17, 9, 7, 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 which is the latest version.
Now follow this sequence: You can update without a data connection, so SWITCH OFF your data connection of your phone. If you have an Android phone, go to settings, apps, find your Victronconnect app, then Data usage, background data - SWITCH THIS OFF. ( don't allow the app to run in the background.
Don't jump to v5.4 to update, do incremental updates starting from no: 17. Connect your phone to your device and when it ask for update do so with your data connection off. Work your update up until you reach v.5.4.
Very important: don't mess with the data settings unless your battery voltage and battery type. (I cannot emphasis this enough).
I am using Fangpusun 100/30 with v.1.39 and Fangpusun 702 BMV v.3.10 with no hassle.
Good luck.

I know the update file is embedded into the victronconnect app and doesn't need data to upgrade, but what about the killer firmware version 1.19? People complains it kills their fangpusun after a while. How long have you been using this your firmware

Namzy:

I thought the update file is embedded into the victronconnect app and doesn't need data to upgrade. How long have you been using this your firmware

Runx:

Yes it is embedded into the app but the app also communicate the mother server when it sees a connection and can track your location. So whenever you want to access the device switch off your data connection and when you are done, switch it back on. I used the Fangpusun cc since May 2018 and BMV 702 1month ago. I did my research and found someone at Amazon US who said that it is the PC/ Mac version of the app that the kill switch is and not the mobile version. I also use the latest Windows version with no issues.
The trick there is THOU SHALL SWITCH OFF DATA CONNECTION when you want to use the app with your device, then turn it off when you are done.

Turn it back on you mean? Meanwhile that's a great find. Would like if you still have the link about the pc firmware carrying the switch from Amazon us to send it here

I agree with these broad conclusions but 500 cycles for Quanta would imply end users get less than 2 years life at 50% DoD per day.

To throw in some real life into all these spec sheets;

I have actual field data from at least 100 12v 200Ah batteries I have installed - a good number of them have already passed the 2 year mark and still going strong - this with users who don't even know what DoD means or respect DoD.

I can only conclude that the Quanta manufacturer estimates are overly conservative or the battery capacity is understated.

Oga Dapsyra gave some hard field data for his LTO batteries over a 15month period - I look to similar field data for the BattleBorns instead of just projected lab results.

I do not think it is practical to use a 100% DoD assumption for any battery bank with more than one battery connected in series except the battery capacity was understated.

I would really love a LTO or similar bank to play with but the entry cost is rather steep - sad to say I 'd rather replace my Quanta 3 times over a 10 year period than throw 10 million naira into a Lithium battery bank and hope for a 10 year lifespan without field evidence to back me up.

Nearly 80% of the Lithium reviews I come across tell me people are still trying to gain mastery of this Lithium tech.

NoMoreTrolling:


I made a mistake with the cycle count in my earlier post, my apologies. If one cycle is using the entire battery capacity, then at 50% DOD, you should make use of the entire 200ah of the 2 quanta batteries. So your calculation below is correct:

200AH X 500 CYCLES = 100,000AH over its lifecycle cost 240k

I was of the impression before that a cycle would be from 100% state of charge to about 50% state of charge, but after breezing through cycle definitions on the web, I see that a cycle is using the entire battery capacity, albeit not all at once.

Keep in mind however that I also did my estimation for 100% DOD for cycle life, i.e 3,000 cycles @ 100% DOD. At 50% DOD, the cycle life for lifepo4 changes dramatically. According to the specs for lifepo4, please refer to graphs below, if you keep a 50% DOD, your cycle life can go up to about 10,000 cycles. I will use 6,000 cycles in my calculation to be conservative

Okay so new calculation

2 12V Quanta 200ah vs 2 BB 12v 100ah

Discharged to 50% DOD

Quanta:
Usable amphour - 200ah x 500 cycles = 100,000 ah

Battleborn
Useable amphour - 100ah x 6,000 cycles = 600,000ah

Cost of Quanta: N234K
Cost of Battleborn: N800K

So it would take about 6 PAIRS of quanta batteries, 12 quantas, to make up for the 2 Battleborn batteries if discharged to 50% DOD with a conservative 6,000 cycles for lifepo4.

Namzy:

Turn it back on you mean? Meanwhile that's a great find. Would like if you still have the link about the pc firmware carrying the switch from Amazon us to send it here

Yes turn it back on. The link for the PC firmware was pulled down to protect Fangpusun users and stop messing with settings. If you want the Windows version of victronconnect, go-to victron site, the latest version 5.4 with firmware 1.39 is there. You will also need to download additional files for ve to USB cable to connect with your Windows version.

NoMoretrolling,

Using your own analysis, 800k will get you almost 5 pairs of the quanta batteries over a ten year period if you grow the capital by at least 10% annually assuming zero inflation (it is not the most difficult thing to grow by 10% above nominal inflation).

Also the life cycle chart you posted shows 600 - 700 cycles at 50% DOD for the quanta. So 5 sets of the quanta to the 1 set of BB is more accurate statement.

Therefore a lithium battery would need to last over 10 years (80% original capacity) before it shows a cost advantage over lead acid and this period is not usually covered by warranty.

In Nigeria, unless you are willing to go the DIY route (which increases the probability of failure), the cost-benefit of lithium over lead acid is not as clear cut as you make it appear.

NoMoreTrolling:


I made a mistake with the cycle count in my earlier post, my apologies. If one cycle is using the entire battery capacity, then at 50% DOD, you should make use of the entire 200ah of the 2 quanta batteries. So your calculation below is correct:

200AH X 500 CYCLES = 100,000AH over its lifecycle cost 240k

I was of the impression before that a cycle would be from 100% state of charge to about 50% state of charge, but after breezing through cycle definitions on the web, I see that a cycle is using the entire battery capacity, albeit not all at once.

Keep in mind however that I also did my estimation for 100% DOD for cycle life, i.e 3,000 cycles @ 100% DOD. At 50% DOD, the cycle life for lifepo4 changes dramatically. According to the specs for lifepo4, please refer to graphs below, if you keep a 50% DOD, your cycle life can go up to about 10,000 cycles. I will use 6,000 cycles in my calculation to be conservative

Okay so new calculation

2 12V Quanta 200ah vs 2 BB 12v 100ah

Discharged to 50% DOD

Quanta:
Usable amphour - 200ah x 500 cycles = 100,000 ah

Battleborn
Useable amphour - 100ah x 6,000 cycles = 600,000ah

Cost of Quanta: N234K
Cost of Battleborn: N800K

So it would take about 6 PAIRS of quanta batteries, 12 quantas, to make up for the 2 Battleborn batteries if discharged to 50% DOD with a conservative 6,000 cycles for lifepo4.

lithium vs lead acid debate
am loving the analysis

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NiyiOmoIyunade:
I agree with these broad conclusions but 500 cycles for Quanta would imply end users get less than 2 years life at 50% DoD per day.

To throw in some real life into all these spec sheets;

I have actual field data from at least 100 12v 200Ah batteries I have installed - a good number of them have already passed the 2 year mark and still going strong - this with users who don't even know what DoD means or respect DoD.

I can only conclude that the Quanta manufacturer estimates are overly conservative or the battery capacity is understated.

Oga Dapsyra gave some hard field data for his LTO batteries over a 15month period - I look to similar field data for the BattleBorns instead of just projected lab results.

I do not think it is practical to use a 100% DoD assumption for any battery bank with more than one battery connected in series except the battery capacity was understated.

I would really love a LTO or similar bank to play with but the entry cost is rather steep - sad to say I 'd rather replace my Quanta 3 times over a 10 year period than throw 10 million naira into a Lithium battery bank and hope for a 10 year lifespan without field evidence to back me up.

Nearly 80% of the Lithium reviews I come across tell me people are still trying to gain mastery of this Lithium tech.

well done niyi. I couldn't have said it better.
for a small battery bank of less than 100ah one could take the risk of going lithium but
for peeps like us having an oversized bank, plunking down such a humongous amount of
dough on a technology whose overriding appeal is a promised future performance not yet
proven in real world applications, is a gamble taken too far.

We still need to give lithium time, d positive Stat sheets are nearly almost theoretical, we need more practical stats, with George d we nw knw with proper sizing lead acid can do 5yrs, 6yrs plus. Although dapsyra already gave us positive review abt LTO... As for me i ll jst observe from dt corner( my pple wey sabi as e go, dt place go mk gud 2nite o

GeorgeD1:


well done niyi. I couldn't have said it better.
for a small battery bank of less than 100ah one could take the risk of going lithium but
for peeps like us having an oversized bank, plunking down such a humongous amount of
dough on a technology whose overriding appeal is a promised future performance not yet
proven in real world applications, is a gamble taken too far.

My people, lithium has prove, we just need to look inward (though the price is killing o!). I just change my laptop battery(lithium ion) after 5yrs of draining it till shutdown. My Phones too (Iphone 4s) both started misbehaving (battery wise, after 6.5 years of use (till phones go dead). So the proves are there, but the price na die o for now.

Wazari:
NoMoretrolling,

Using your own analysis, 800k will get you almost 5 pairs of the quanta batteries over a ten year period if you grow the capital by at least 10% annually assuming zero inflation (it is not the most difficult thing to grow by 10% above nominal inflation).

Also the life cycle chart you posted shows 600 - 700 cycles at 50% DOD for the quanta. So 5 sets of the quanta to the 1 set of BB is more accurate statement.

Therefore a lithium battery would need to last over 10 years (80% original capacity) before it shows a cost advantage over lead acid and this period is not usually covered by warranty.

In Nigeria, unless you are willing to go the DIY route (which increases the probability of failure), the cost-benefit of lithium over lead acid is not as clear cut as you make it appear.

In my opinion, Lithium makes a cost effective scenario if you have fairly stable Nepa ( atleast 10-12 hours a day) and/or a diesel generator with your solar . In such a scenario you can severally undersize the lithium ( using ESS) but still cycle the lithium to maximize the solar use unlike pure offgrid or standby applications

The lithium charges by a factor of 3-4 times faster allowing you to reduce use of gen or running your solar on PEAK .. e.g in my case a 10 KWH battery can charge at 7 KWp ( 140 Amps DC) from my solar but to utilize 140 amps charge rate I will need 1400 AH in Trojan ( C10)
i.e. 7 x 4x 120,000 NGN= 3.3 million - which is the same cost of 200 AH Lithium

What the lithium brings for me is the peace of mind that I do not have to worry about equalizing, water topping , if the battries are discharged or fully charged etc.

( i have on few occasions run my battery down to 2 % SOC and charged in the morning after the sun has comeup without any adverse effects

p.s.
In my own case I have 10 KWp solar , 20 KVA GEN and 15 KVA + 6 KVA ( 3 phase) inverter all supported by a small 10 KWP/ 10 KWH BYD

Imagine how much space a 28 battery trojan setup will take

and yes the battries are ensured a good ventilation by using exhuast fan No airconditioning is needed . Although I am thinking of adding 5000 BTU solar operated unit to keep the inverters cool if I can find the correct unit .

Oshomo12:


My people, lithium has prove, we just need to look inward (though the price is killing o!). I just change my laptop battery(lithium ion) after 5yrs of draining it till shutdown. My Phones too (Iphone 4s) both started misbehaving (battery wise, after 6.5 years of use (till phones go dead). So the proves are there, but the price na die o for now.

you used a phone/laptop for 6.5 years?

OgogoroFreak:
you used a phone/laptop for 6.5 years?

Yes I did, the phones are still on (only that they are now desktops!). The laptop still working well (with a new battery of course), it all depend on how much you are willing to pay for stuff. I bought the laptop then for around 150k, when laptops were being sold for 70-95 max.

The Raspberry Pi 3 Model B is an incredible, nifty machine and is truly affordable. These will have to partially explain why many arrays of developers favour it so much as a platform of choice for apps and IoT stuff, majorly of the open-source types.

In this case, attached are four screen shots of the SolarSnoop/PCM60X Monitor app on the Pi, by a developer and in use with my charge controller. It's freely available on GitHub. It uses a browser interface and is thus available to be interacted with within the range of a WiFi network, or from anywhere on the Internet, on a browser.

I set up this my own particular install of the PCM60X Monitor to auto-refresh every minute, which interval is good enough for me.

Hope some of us who are not already using equivalent or better solutions to monitor/visualize their RE set ups, will be encouraged to find similar ones for own use.

........
P34c3
.....
...

duwdu:
The Raspberry Pi 3 Model B is an incredible, nifty machine and is truly affordable. These will have to partially explain why many arrays of developers favour it so much as a platform of choice for apps and IoT stuff, majorly of the open-source types.

In this case, attached are four screen shots of the SolarSnoop/PCM60X Monitor app on the Pi, by a developer and in use with my charge controller. It's freely available on GitHub. It uses a browser interface and is thus available to be interacted with within the range of a WiFi network, or from anywhere on the Internet, on a browser.

I set up this my own particular install of the PCM60X Monitor to auto-refresh every minute, which interval is good enough for me.

Hope some of us who are not already using equivalent or better solutions to monitor/visualize their RE set ups, will be encouraged to find similar ones for own use.

........
P34c3
.....
...

welcome to the club bro. The system I setup some times in july last year is still running and has been logging away without issues. Even when I am out of the country, I can still always take a peep and see what is happening. Using the solar equipment with open communication port and documentations (Looking at Victron and to some extent some tracer and epsolar devices) is also very important if you are considering going this route.

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