Kobojunkie:
Actually, you cannot just make up your own facts and then tell us it applies to all. Either you can show what you are saying even exists beyond your mind, or you accept it is likely just a crock of bull. . . . To declare that there are Nigeria-specific "VALUES" out there(note: not training method) you will at leasat need to show that these values do exist.

you said you grew up in Niaja, what values did you learn or did not learn. no need getting sentimental, tell us your experiences and we will go from there.

Kobojunkie:
If only that were true, then you would apply the same standards to how you train your boys. But unfortunately we all know that this specific training seems to apply only to your daughters, and it is applied in such a manner as to continue propagation of the mentality that woman NEED TO DO THINGS to hold on to their men.

what is wrong in training a child (a female daughter) how to keep her home and hold on to her husband? tell me what is wrong in that.

Kobojunkie:
I did not tell you kids are animals. You are the one who complained that Western kids get a jolt when screamed at but Nigerian kids are generally so hardened that they screaming at them does not even register on their "I CARE" meter.
You would need to tell us what is abnormal in letting a child grow up with no fear. I had much the same freedom growing up in Nigeria and I grew up into a sensible adult.

so staying out till 11.00pm is 'growing up with no fear", so that was or is the reason behind letting teenage kids to stay out late at night? So your parents gave you so much freedom as a female child in your teenage years in Nigeria, to stay out till midnight? oh!! i see!!

ronkebp:

3.Curfew: i really do not get the 11.00pm or 10.00pm curfews, they have here for their kids, their kids can be outside till 11.00pm, really? you gat to be kidding me, and you wonder why there are so many rape cases and teenage boys and girls are being murdered. what will a decent teenager be doing outside till 11.00pm....what type of friends are they keeping? anyways, in Nigeria i do not know any parent in their right senses that will allow their children to stay outside till 9.00 pm, infact in my house, if you are outside till 7.00pm, be ready to start answering questions on where you have been.

Lucky you!

At least you had 1 extra hour sef. Mine was: Make sure you're home before sunset

And even now, as a married working mum, body go dey do me one kind if I'm out late. Crazy isn't it?

Now this is one reason I love the long summer daylight!

coogar:
whilst their naija counterparts are laughing their way into abortion clinics, taking paraga and other dirty substances to flush out their fetus....
abegggi, be realistic.

i can see you are part of the men that have impregnated them and led them to abortion clinics , go to a secondary school, sample 100 female students in lets say ss2. and also sample 100 female students in America( for example) in 11th grade, and tell me the number of virgins in each school, when you have successfully done that, then tell me what the results are, if not you have not said anything.

coogar:
that's the point....if america have the same vices as nigeria, why then do nigerian parents apply strict discipline to restrict their kids?
what's the essence if there's no marked difference?

what is the essence of what? of training your kids? what is wrong in using strict discipline to an extent on a child? oh so because you were asked to kneel down and hands-up and pick-pins as a measure of discipline is now termed "abuse"?

coogar: stop abusing the children! that's the approach.
there's no point wasting muscles on these kids when we all know they are still going to behave like the kids of developed countries who don't get caned or punished severely...

and who is abusing their children? were you abused as a young boy?.....my parents never abused their kids in any way and i really have not come in contact with any parent in Nigeria that physically abused their children, only if i watch them on tv or like the lady that her pictures were displayed on NL sometime ago that beat her son to the point of "no recognition"...Any Nigerain trained adult here on NL that has been really abused by his or her parents should come out and say so.

ronkebp: you said you grew up in Niaja, what values did you learn or did not learn. no need getting sentimental, tell us your experiences and we will go from there.

I can tell you one thing, I did not learn any of your Nigeria-specific values. I was raised on values that you find in such places as the Bible, and turns out most every country in the world knows of many of them. On the trips I made as a kid to the village, I did not find these so called Nigeria-values.

ronkebp:
what is wrong in training a child (a female daughter) how to keep her home and hold on to her husband? tell me what is wrong in that.

There is something terribly wrong in doing something, over and over, without stopping to check if it is really getting you the results you think it should. In the last 50 years, divorce rate, even among those in the village has steadily risen, even with all the "Training for marriage" Nigerian parents(our parents and their grandparents) have done. In that time we have also come to realize that what the system we have had has done was create in our women, a sense that they are second class citizens defined in many ways by their marriages and nothing much else.

ronkebp:
so staying out till 11.00pm is 'growing up with no fear", so that was or is the reason behind letting teenage kids to stay out late at night? So your parents gave you so much freedom as a female child in your teenage years in Nigeria, to stay out till midnight? oh!! i see!!

You tell me cause you are the one who claims for security and safety, you would rather they not stay out late, and I only used my person as example. I had no fear of the night, which was just like the day back then really.

Aarrggh!! I see, so this is born out of fear that you cannot trust your female children to be just as responsible as your male children, am I right?

ronkebp: i can see you are part of the men that have impregnated them and led them to abortion clinics , go to a secondary school, sample 100 female students in lets say ss2. and also sample 100 female students in America( for example) in 11th grade, and tell me the number of virgins in each school, when you have successfully done that, then tell me what the results are, if not you have not said anything.

as at 1997, 610,000 abortions take place in nigeria every year between the age of 15-44. only 40% are carried out by qualified physicians.
abortion is prohibited in nigeria yet 25 women per 1000 go through the process every year. in america where abortion is not illegal, 23 per
1000 women under go abortion each year. have i answered your question?

i think you are buying into the hypocrisy in nigeria and you mistake it for decency.
if i sample 100 female students in ss2. at least 90 of them must have had sex through their uncles, cousins, neighbours, etc. did you not see the 13 yr old girl humping a 6 yr old boy some months back in a wretched bathroom? i bet their parents would also swear at okija shrine that
the kids are virgins.

what is the essence of what? of training your kids? what is wrong in using strict discipline to an extent on a child? oh so because you were asked to kneel down and hands-up and pick-pins as a measure of discipline is now termed "abuse"?

is that where it ends? you didn't see teachers beating up kids in school like domestic animals?

and who is abusing their children? were you abused as a young boy?.....my parents never abused their kids in any way and i really have not come in contact with any parent in Nigeria that physically abused their children, only if i watch them on tv or like the lady that her pictures were displayed on NL sometime ago that beat her son to the point of "no recognition"...Any Nigerain trained adult here on NL that has been really abused by his or her parents should come out and say so.

so using koboko to beat up children is not physical abuse?
keep lying to yourself.....

a research paper recently published by the department of ophthalmology at the college of health sciences in obafemi awolowo university, ife, cited a 4-year study which concluded that an astonishing 30.3% of all eye injuries, presented at that hospital alone, by children aged 5-15, were directly attributed to caning or whipping attacks that went horribly wrong, either in schools or at home.

i rest my case!

coogar:

as at 1997, 610,000 abortions take place in nigeria every year between the age of 15-44. only 40% are carried out by qualified physicians.
abortion is prohibited in nigeria yet 25 women per 1000 go through the process every year. in america where abortion is not illegal, 23 per
1000 women under go abortion each year. have i answered your question?

i think you are buying into the hypocrisy in nigeria and you mistake it
for decency.

Kobojunkie:
I can tell you one thing, I did not learn any of your Nigeria-specific values. I was raised on values that you find in such places as the Bible, and turns out most every country in the world knows of many of them.

And what are these bible specific values, that before the Bible came to Africa, Nigerian parents were not teaching their kids?

Kobojunkie:
There is something terribly wrong in doing something, over and over, without stopping to check if it is really getting you the results you think it should. In the last 50 years, divorce rate, even among those in the village has steadily risen, even with all the "Training for marriage" Nigerian parents(our parents and their grandparents) have done. In that time we have also come to realize that what the system we have had has done was create in our women, a sense that they are second class citizens defined in many ways by their marriages and nothing much else.

it depends on how you see the training or teachings, for example, my mum taught me how to cook well because the food is the way to a man's heart", she taught me how to clean the home, because cleanliness is next to godliness, (she did not teach me how to have s/e/x though) but made mention countless times on how to satisfy my husband sexually,she taught me how to behave in certain situations, i am a woman and my mum should be able to teach me things i should know when i eventually get married. I have a brother whom is also being taught how to be a responsible man and how to help out with some of the chores at home....so all the lessons i have learnt so far has made me a second class citizen? Do you think we do not have our responsibilities as a woman/mother in the home? since you were taught Bible-specific values you should know what the Bible (Proverb) says about what qualities a "virtuous woman" should possess.

Kobojunkie:
You tell me cause you are the one who claims for security and safety, you would rather they not stay out late, and I only used my person as example. I had no fear of the night, which was just like the day back then really.

Aarrggh!! I see, so this is born out of fear that you cannot trust your female children to be just as responsible as your male children, am I right?

Even if we have policemen leaving in every corner and the safety is such that, you can actually sleep in the house in Nigeria or anywhere for that matter with your doors open and no one will disturb....there is nothing my kids will belooking for as long as they still live under my roof, outside, anything passed 7.00pm...that is just the way i feel about it... if staying outside till late will avert fear in them, they should better remain afraid or fearful.

Trust female children? my dear it is not all about female children, so boys cannot keep bad companies and start to smoke marijuana at a tender age? it has nothing to do with being male or female....but come to think of it, who is more vulnerable, the male or females?

coogar:
as at 1997, 610,000 abortions take place in nigeria every year between the age of 15-44. only 40% are carried out by qualified physicians.
abortion is prohibited in nigeria yet 25 women per 1000 go through the process every year. in america where abortion is not illegal, 23 per
1000 women under go abortion each year. have i answered your question?

Good figures, 25 to 23, now how many teenagers are parents, give me that ratio, american to nigerian teenagers, thank God it is 25 per 1000 women, the figure is not so bad, at first i thought it would be 750 per 1000 women. mind you, you said 15-44, i was talking about 13-19 years of age.

coogar:
i think you are buying into the hypocrisy in nigeria and you mistake it for decency.
if i sample 100 female students in ss2. at least 90 of them must have had sex through their uncles, cousins, neighbours, etc. did you not see the 13 yr old girl humping a 6 yr old boy some months back in a wretched bathroom? i bet their parents would also swear at okija shrine that
the kids are virgins.

How many of your cousins have you slept with, (i direct the questions back at you because i want to start from you as an individual) and how you have also contributed to the hypocrisy, how many of your nieces have you disvirgined? and how many of your neighbours daughters have you slept with? Personally i have not had those experiences.

coogar:
is that where it ends? you didn't see teachers beating up kids in school like domestic animals?

My school was "girls" only...so did not see where anyone was beaten like an animal

coogar:
so using koboko to beat up children is not physical abuse?
keep lying to yourself.....

so your parents used koboko on you? hmmm!!! i know where the beaf is from and why you think training kids the Nigeria-way is wrong.

coogar:
i rest my case!

what case? what is the validity of that aritcle, for all i care it might have been copied from other sources that have been outdated...that means nothing.

ronkebp: Good figures, 25 to 23, now how many teenagers are parents, give me that ratio, american to nigerian teenagers, thank God it is 25 per 1000 women, the figure is not so bad, at first i thought it would be 750 per 1000 women. mind you, you said 15-44, i was talking about 13-19 years of age.

you're missing one fundamental point. it's legal in america, it's illegal in nigeria.
how can nigeria have more people doing abortion illegally than america where the process is legal? in a nutshell, if abortion was legal in nigeria, it would be 800 per 1000 women per year.

How many of your cousins have you slept with, (i direct the questions back at you because i want to start from you as an individual) and how you have also contributed to the hypocrisy, how many of your nieces have you disvirgined? and how many of your neighbours daughters have you slept with? Personally i have not had those experiences.

no need for the ad hominem sniping......concentrate on the issue, leave personal attacks out of it...
you're not blind - you have seen various news here on nairaland of fathers molesting their daughters, etc.

My school was "girls" only...so did not see where anyone was beaten like an animal

and britney spears is a virgin.....

so your parents used koboko on you? hmmm!!! i know where the beaf is from and why you think training kids the Nigeria-way is wrong.

keep your eyes on the matter, leave personal issues out of it.
i can understand this is your way of evading the questions posed to you....you claim not to have seen any parent beating his child before
in nigeria. even my rooster is laughing at this claim.

what case? what is the validity of that aritcle, for all i care it might have been copied from other sources that have been outdated...that means nothing.

roflmao!
admitting the discipline system is wrong is the first step to recovery! you can deny these things till cows come home but i won't tow that line.

coogar:
you're missing one fundamental point. it's legal in america, it's illegal in nigeria.
how can nigeria have more people doing abortion illegally than america where the process is legal? in a nutshell, if abortion was legal in nigeria, it would be 800 per 1000 women per year.

whether it is legal or not, abortion is still abortion. let me in to the number of young girls in secondary schools and high schools that are no longer virgins or are baby-mamas, that is what i asked.

coogar:
no need for the ad hominem sniping......concentrate on the issue, leave personal attacks out of it...
you're not blind - you have seen various news here on nairaland of fathers molesting their daughters, etc.

i am talking from my own personal view and experiences, you are evading the question, did you do it or not? it is a simple yes or no question.

coogar:
and britney spears is a virgin.....

you can believe whatever, it will not change the price of palmoil in the market....

coogar:
keep your eyes on the matter, leave personal issues out of it.
i can understand this is your way of evading the questions posed to you....you claim not to have seen any parent beating his child before
in nigeria. even my rooster is laughing at this claim.

why not answer the question, you are the one running away from it. answer the question.

coogar:
roflmao!
admitting the discipline system is wrong is the first step to recovery! you can deny these things till cows come home but i won't tow that line.

what discipline is wrong? and how many parents treat their kids like this supposed "animals"....like i said before, i don't know what happens in other people's home, but in my house ooooo, we children are loved, respected and disciplined when necessary....and that has not made us to get a room in "ward 7".

coogar:

but has this strict discipline worked in nigeria?
our country still ships the highest number of prostitutes to europe. the male youths are 419/yahoo-boys/armed robbers.
premarital sex is rife in the country - even worse than any of the developed countries you can mention.
so it begs the question - what is the essence of the naija value when it has not produced any positive impact amongst the youths?

to get the answer to this question, you need to consider the fail(s) in parenting. How many parents still instil these values. How many of those who instil them fail. I have heard of a girl whose mother gave a female condom immediately after her SSCE. the mother told her she could do anything but must not get pregnant. I know of another girl whose father is keeping from relationships at her first year in the University.

Fact is, the discipline is not as it used to be and that is responsible for the decline in our values.

It must have started from the need 'to belong', to appear as knowing how things are in the world, or to feel westernised, erroneously or otherwise.




btw at Kobojunkie, that they are western ideals doesnt make them less NIgerian. I have seen a place where giving things to elders with your left hand is no big deal. Would you still call that a 'human being value?'

coogar:

but has this strict discipline worked in nigeria?
our country still ships the highest number of prostitutes to europe. the male youths are 419/yahoo-boys/armed robbers.
premarital sex is rife in the country - even worse than any of the developed countries you can mention.
so it begs the question - what is the essence of the naija value when it has not produced any positive impact amongst the youths?

I disagree that it hasnt produced any positive impact. The impact are just not as they used to be. could it be that people got caught up in other aspects of life that they totally forgot about these ideals or they at some point just got lost, losing some sense of identity and just living while 'anything goes'.

It happens in certain societies that concerned citizens sit down and have a review of their values and then look out for ways of instilling them. The media could make a powerful tool. An end to poverty might also make a difference since poverty has been identified as a factor.

parental control might go a long way. If people would marry earlier too

deols:

btw at Kobojunkie, that they are western ideals doesnt make them less NIgerian[b]. I have seen a place where giving things to elders with your left hand is no big deal.[/b] Would you still call that a 'human being value?'

Why is this wrong?

I know it is a big deal in Nigeria but never really understood what exactly is wrong with the left hand. If you don't mind. . .please explain why this is bad, it can't be "Human Being Value"

what if your left handed - or is that un-nigerian - lol!!

Sisi_Kill:
Why is this wrong?

I know it is a big deal in Nigeria but never really understood what exactly is wrong with the left hand. If you don't mind. . .please explain why this is bad, it can't be "Human Being Value"

I didn't say it is bad. Just making it clear that all of these things cannot be generalised as human values. You never can tell what happens elsewhere.




It may be bad only because it is seen as bad or because you eat with your right and is expected to use your left at the loo.


ANother Nigerian value is at least bending to greet your elders. I dont think that can be generalised as human either

deols:
btw at Kobojunkie, that they are western ideals doesnt make them less NIgerian. I have seen a place where giving things to elders with your left hand is no big deal. Would you still call that a 'human being value?'

Yes, I know. With some of you, you believe a child is at fault for being born left-handed. . .

Look, when you say there are Nigerian ideals . .. at least be able to point them out and differentiate them from all those we know of that are out there.

deols:

I didn't say it is bad. Just making it clear that all of these things cannot be generalised as human values. You never can tell what happens elsewhere.
It may be bad only because it is seen as bad or because you eat with your right and is expected to[b] use your left at the loo. [/b]
ANother Nigerian value is at least bending to greet your elders. I dont think that can be generalised as human either

use your left hand in the loo? Who does that? I don't. I am not left handed so why would I use my left hand in the loo?

So, bending over to greet is Nigerian Value? Let's go with that for a second here. How does bending over contribute to morality our community? Does it mean those who don't generate backache from that exercise by the time they are in their 40's are good people?

what is wrong in training a child (a female daughter) how to keep her home and hold on to her husband? tell me what is wrong in that

There isn't anything wrong with this, if that's how you choose to bring up your child but why do you have to teach her how to keep a husband?

At a tender age, you are manipulating her mind. To keep a husband that's not even there and not sure whether that husband will be there.

This is the reason why many women feel suicidal when they approach their late 20s and 30s without a husband. Parents have been teaching them, it's a must to have husband and especially at so, so and so age. You are putting pressure on a child from a very early age. If you are going to teach a small child how to keep her husband, teach her how to keep herself first if the husband doesn't come.

deols:

I didn't say it is bad. Just making it clear that all of these things cannot be generalised as human values. You never can tell what happens elsewhere.




It may be bad only because it is seen as bad or because you eat with your right and is expected to use your left at the loo.


ANother Nigerian value is at least bending to greet your elders. I dont think that can be generalised as human either

WHy are you so backward?

First of all, WTF is loo?

Second, you use your left hand to clean shyt from your a/s/s? Who does that?


Third, who are you? You bend to greet your elders? I am a civilized, unshackled, Yoruba tokan tokan and I have never bent to greet my elders.


Fourth, Are you phocking trolling?

Sagamite:

Nah! It is sexercise!

I see.

@kobo, she's a muslim. As a muslim, she must use her left hand to clean shyt.

Kobojunkie:

use your left hand in the loo? Who does that? I don't. I am not left handed so why would I use my left hand in the loo?

So, bending over to greet is Nigerian Value? Let's go with that for a second here. How does bending over contribute to morality our community? Does it mean those who don't generate backache from that exercise by the time they are in their 40's are good people?

SO you use your right hand Kobo? Thats grosssssssssssssssssssssss

kandiikane: @kobo, she's a muslim. As a muslim, she must use her left hand to clean shyt.

The Quran goes that far?

kandiikane: @kobo, she's a muslim. As a muslim, she must use her left hand to clean shyt.

What? I have been around real muslims here in America and none of them as far as I know use their left hand to clean shyt from their a/s/sh/o/l/e. I have had many of them as roomamtes and I have dated many real muslim girls from muslim countries and they dont do that nonsense.

This deols girl must be a dirty swine, like most of her cohorts in Nigeria. You cant excuse her dirtiness on the basis of religion.

I don't understand your point.
Are you saying it's wrong to use your hands altogether or wrong to use your left hand?


We are advised to use our right hand for eating and we should not use our right hand to clean up.

Muslims MUST use water after doing number 2.
You use tissue, wipe and then use water.

When you use water, you have to use your left hand to clean up.


Same as after peeing(women).

what if your naturally left handed.

If she's left handed, from tender age muslim parents usually teach their child to use their right hand instead.

kandiikane: I don't understand your point.
Are you saying it's wrong to use your hands altogether or wrong to use your left hand?
We are advised to use our right hand for eating and we should not use our right hand to clean up.

Muslims MUST use water after doing number 2.
You use tissue, wipe and then use water.

When you use water, you have to use your left hand to clean up.
Same as after peeing(women).

a) What comes out of your arse is the food you use your right hand to put into your mouth in the first place. So I don't see why it should be treated as if it is an abomination of something of that sort.

b) Wiping your butt, and then washing the same with your left hand, what does that accomplish please? I mean is that so that when folks bend over in the mosque, the person facing their arse does not get some offensive odour there way? That I can understand but anything else, I don't think I can handle.

c) I still don't get why it is ok to use the right hand for food and not the left? I mean your hands touch about the same surfaces all day. So if cleanliness is the main, then rather than focus on trying to get people to use different hands, would it not simply make more sense to say folks wash their hands more often?

cotton101: what if your naturally left handed.

Probably can't be a muslim or you go to boot camp to get saved from your left-handedness.

Kobojunkie:

a) What comes out of your arse is the food you use your right hand to put into your mouth in the first place. So I don't see why it should be treated as if it is an abomination of something of that sort.

b) Wiping your butt, and then washing the same with your left hand, what does that accomplish please? I mean is that so that when folks bend over in the mosque, the person facing their arse does not get some offensive odour there way? That I can understand but anything else, I don't think I can handle.

c) I still don't get why it is ok to use the right hand for food and not the left? I mean your hands touch about the same surfaces all day. So if cleanliness is the main, then rather than focus on trying to get people to use different hands, would it not simply make more sense to say folks wash their hands more often?

No one is forcing you to wash your azz with water or wash your azz with your left hand.

If you are not muslim or a kaffir you can eat and wash your azz with any hand you want.

Any serious muslim follows these rules, the same way they follow the rules of not eating pork.

You, kobo, can wash your azz with any hand, it's a free world.

Here is another example of the difference in values between the West and Africa:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9477318/Deputy-head-cleared-of-slapping-uncontrollable-seven-year-old-after-five-month-legal-battle.html

That is an example of the logic that is part of the reasons why Western kids do not respect their elders.

This man must have gone through hell thinking about if he would lose his means of livelihood and go to jail because he had to deal with a useless child.

He was taken to court for allegedly slapping the child. If it was the worthless child that slapped him, it would not have been treated as such a serious case.

How would a kid not grow up lacking respect for adults if brought up with this philosophy?

Be a student in Nigeria and dare slap your teacher and see what happens.

Worse still, be my child and dare slap your teacher for trying to control you in class.

kandiikane:

No one is forcing you to wash your azz with water or wash your azz with your left hand.

If you are not muslim or a kaffir you can eat and wash your azz with any hand you want.

Any serious muslim follows these rules, the same way they follow the rules of not eating pork.

You, kobo, can wash your azz with any hand, it's a free world.

I didn't say anything of someone forcing me to wash one way or another. I am simply trying to understand how this "VALUE" as someone claimed it to be can be understood . . . the positives, if any, measured.