@deep sight
I need not say more. Oxford should look you up if they need another definition for trauma. Sorry o bros.

@sight
Whoa....

So, aluu, your feelings towards jungle justice after your ordeal?

Random: do you know why they didn't consider the expats for ransom as well?

@Deep sight

What can I say...I'm just glad you came out alive.

Most people who go through such experience never live to tell the tale.

About the Nigerian police, its obvious that the lack basic training. Nigeria as a Nation is bad.

So when the head of a man is bad, other parts of its body can never be good.

wiegraf: @sight
Whoa....

So, aluu, your feelings towards jungle justice after your ordeal?

You see, I read an article in Thisday recently about Capital Punishment by Funke Aboyade. I have always been against capital punishment (and more so against mob/ jungle justice) but she made the interesting point that its people who have been victims of murderous attacks that are in the best position to really know what the issue is.

Honestly, when I saw the careless impunity with which these boys shot people dead - people who are husbands,fathers, brothers to someone out there), the way the ra.ped that young newly engaged girl, I cannot sincerely say that I wouldbe remorseful if they were caught and "aluuued".

Nevertheless, I do not and can not support mob justice espceially the gruesome sort.

I have always and will always be for capital punishment. I lean more towards the laws of moses with regard to crime and punishment.
Mob actions are usually as a result of pent-up frustrations, and are more common in failed states where citizens have little or no access to transparent justice.

plaetton: I have always and will always be for capital punishment. I lean more towards the laws of moses with regard to crime and punishment.
Mob actions are usually as a result of pent-up frustrations, and are more common in failed states where citizens have little or no access to transparent justice.

My concern is for the innocent. What restitution is possible after someone is wrongly executed either by the law or a mob? Better a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent man killed.

On another note I've been a 'victim' before. If you're as absent minded as I am, have a few drinks, and can't tell the difference between cars so long as they have similar colors, shapes etc a few accidents happen. So on one occasion, well. But mid town abj, so police showed up before the mob could find tires (when d police show sef, see how dem dey hi five some ashis for d joint, collect hugs from others). Anyways, from there on it was over quickly. Luckily one of us that night was extremely useful (unlike me, though as usual, I was calm when under real pressure), and comes from a big boi clan. So considering police, once they figured out who he was, the treatment became a lot better. See how big man fit do anyhow? Luckily on my side that night, heh. The eediot accuser even apologized to me later on, but that was when I bumped into him elsewhere. Giving me some story about millions in his boot, blah blah. So I got off with people laughing hysterically whenever they saw my face for a day or two, even the pharmacist. I still get into wrong cars on occasion. So yeah, it's rather easy to kill an innocent.

Even before this I nearly got into trouble once trying to break up a similar crowd. Had to let go of course, considering the looks I was beginning to get. I doubt they would have eventually killed that one though because it was abuja as well...

Failed society? Simple-minded barbarians? Meh

Phew... my apologies to Ihedinobi, Chris & others...I was suddenly blizted with 'busy-ness'.

and upon reading Deepsight's tale I'm just speechless. I see its also on the front page where it belongs for others to read and be amazed.

@Deepsight,
I'm truly speechless and not sure what to even say, but I'm glad that you made it, like really really glad. I'm not even sure how your state of mind is after such an experience but I charge you to the graceful hand of God, may it be more than well with your soul. Also the part where you said it'd been a tough year and death may not be so bad....please be encouraged through whatever has happened, it shall be well with your soul. wow...I'm still stunned by this story...

Ihedinobi:
I'm sorry that you think it's mere optimism. I am a Christian, JeSoul, and my faith rules all that I do and say. There is no dichotomy for me between Christ and the circumstances of life. As long as there is one untried solution to Nigeria's problem and a will to pursue it, there is hope. It's not really mere emotional optimism. Unless of course you mean, hope, by which I mean godly hope that maketh not ashamed.

I understand. As a christian myself my faith does also color practically everything I do...the only difference is I tend to be more a realist.

I am not saying that we should not say "Nigeria, Ghana is doing great, you should be too". I am saying that we should not say, "Nigeria, you're a waste of time. Just look at Ghana: wasn't she so and so and now she is . . . and you are still . . ." One is an excuse, the other is pep talk. I'm sure you can tell which is which. The fact is that Nigeria is not what or where she can and should be, but there's no sense in overflogging that.

Okay that's a fair point.

We already talked about peculiarities. That's what I mean. Say, the average Nigerian is an extremely self-centered douche bag, is that the whole story? No. There is a why. It could be a survival mechanism. If it is, then, anyone who wants to work on Nigeria would be better off factoring in the reason of this self-centeredness. Such a person would have to indicate very overtly that he can be trusted with the average Obi's problem of survival. If he does not, whatever he attempts to do with Nigeria will fail on that point. Obi will steal every resource entrusted to him the first instant he touches it. But if Obi's fear is evidently accounted for, Obi will be more likely to be helpful.

This argument would work...except for there are societies that exist where people have next to nothin but do not resort to violence & misbehavior as a "coping (or survival) mechanism". Some of the biggest smiles & happiest people I've come across were in some of the poorest places on earth.

Chris laid it out earlier - its greed & lust of the eyes that is the average naija man's problem. He is not satisfied to have just his daily bread, he must have daily jeep, daily mansion and daily fat bank account.

plaetton: We can all hope and keep hoping till thy kingdom come. Thy kingdom better come fast, because, the future doesn't look pretty.
The nations that are prosperous, all the nations that are just emerging from entrenched poverty like Brazil, India, etc, did not achieve these feats by merely hoping. There is nothing miraculous about attaining national prosperity.
Our pioneer elites were too simple minded, myopic and extremely selfish to have laid the foundations for a prosperous future.
For example, we conduct a hundred times the volume of trade with nations 10,000 kilometres away than we do with our regional West African brothers.There are no rail links between Nigerai and our neigbors in the West, East or North, just like the British and French colonialist wanted and left it.

This is sooooooooo on point. And it is even reflected in some africans who go abroad to set up businesses...I can't tell you how many times I get frustrated trying to patronize african businesses only to be met with that "african mentality" that does not think beyond wetin I go chop today and try to expand to reach new heights.

Our educational system was tailored to produce clerks for the colonial administration, and not thinkers. 52 yrs later,We have not changed the basic platforms of that educational system. Our police force was modelled and the force trained to pacify native agitations, they were trained and housed in barracks, isolated from the greater community, and encouraged to see the greater community as the enemies. That system remains firmly in place 52yrs after the departure of the colonialist. Just go to police college at Ikeja and see how our policemen are trained.

You can pretty much take this quote and apply it to many other aspects...its seems as a whole, africans do things one certain way - and never deviate from it. Never think on how to improve, streamline it. Never innovate, simply consume.

I remember when I first returned to Nigeria In 1994, I was alarmed that all the factories and warehouses in my old neighborhhods in Ikeja and Oregun areas of Lagos had been taken over by Churches, and, ironically, everyone was shouting halleluya.
I remember shaking my head in horror, and telling my cousin that this country was in deep deep trouble.

Things have gotten a lot worse since then, and ofcourse, the Shouts of Halleluya have also gotten much more frenzied and louder.

I'm a christian but the over-saturation of 'churches' in naija is a big problem. They are not really churches, they are merely another outlet of the pent-up frustration. Rather than face reality and put hand to plow we prefer to sing & pray all day hoping for a windfall.

Na wa oh...anything that inspires hope at all in/for naija?

Chrisbenogor:
Chai, Nna see enjoyment kwa, I hope say you reach nkwobi and isiewu joints oh, if not better book another flight kia kia. Even me d̶̲̥̅̊ε̲̣γ̲̣ hope say the paper "is stacking" hehehehe.
Hmmmmmm Ihedinobi, well make I try.

Lol...next time you show me where all the good spots are . And why won't the paper stack? I know you're a hard worker, whatever you put your hands to do will be blessed.

First off let me say I respect your religious beliefs and your faith. What I am going to try and do however is stick to the facts as they are because I am not one for wishful thinking.
After my run in with discovering myself religion wise and my deciding to drop it in 2008, my subsequent anger at religious folks for lying and deceiving people, I have reached a stage in my epiphany which is simple.
"There are good people and there are bad people"

Word! if truer words were ever spoken...

It doesn't matter what they believe, what they claim they practice, the good ones are good. The bad ones however would find ways to be bad, this is all so evident in Nigeria especially in the business of selling hope which is evident in the proliferation of those that are "called" today.
I however would like to keep this discussion away from all that and focus on that which we can see daily.
I had the very unintersting experience of doing business in Nigeria recently. Nine times out of tenwhen you have to buy something in Nigeria do you ever ask if "its the original".
I tried to buy a used car recently in Nigeria and I tell you its one thing that would show you how much we have no moral dignity in this country and what people will do for a quick buck. While in the US you could walk into a car dealership and get the exact history of a car (at least to the best of my knowledge and the ones I checked), if it was damaged anywhere or salvaged you would know. But again the hassles of importing and clearance made me decide to get it in lagos.
When I arrived lagos I was taken to meet a guy who would guide me through my search and I don't want to go into the sorry details but suffice to say after 5 days of searching I gave up.
Doing business in Nigeria and making it legitimately without cutting corners has got to be a sleight of hand that houdini would have loved to learn. 99 percent of businesses running in Nigeria are just......
I once had this friend who does supplies, and he told me the story of how this very big Supermarket in port harcourt went to Aba to get things, stocked them up like they were "original" and slapped exhorbitant prices on them, unsuspecting Nigerians in the bid to avoid these Aba substandard products still go there and get ripped off.
So I don't know where your optimism is coming from, petrol stations on January 1st this year all turned their pumps to 140 naira per litre even when they knew fully well the products the bought they got at 97 naira per litre. What does that say about us as a people?
I am sorry but each time I hear the whole I have faith and I serve a living God I cannot help but scoff because I know these same people would go back to their rip off businesses come monday.
Simple question is this how many small businesses in Nigeria pay tax?
Goods in most countries in the world come from china, but our Nigerian business men go there and make sure they get sub standard goods for a massive profit. I am sorry but I refuse to share your optimism about business being the hope for Nigeria.


As for GEJ, that's another epistle on its own.

I really cannot fault anything you've said at all, infact it merely reinforces what I already hold to be the case. I hope naija changes but all the indications are drastically to the contrary and that is where as I said to Ihedinobi I'm a realist. Thanks for sharing this bit...and I hope you've gotten a good car from elsewhere

JeSoul:
I understand. As a christian myself my faith does also color practically everything I do...the only difference is I tend to be more a realist.

This is the point at which we truly differ. I do not believe that it is possible to be a Christian and not be a realist or that it is possible to be a realist without the Faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Being realistic means taking full account of all the factors at play in the situation under study. Is God a factor or is He not? Should He be accounted for in Nigeria's situation or not? Also, is there sense in my point that as long as there is one untried solution and a will to pursue it there's hope or is there not? I don't mean to sound confrontational o, sorry if I do.

This argument would work...except for there are societies that exist where people have next to nothin but do not resort to violence & misbehavior as a "coping (or survival) mechanism". Some of the biggest smiles & happiest people I've come across were in some of the poorest places on earth.

Do these places of which you speak have a history of deprivation and deliberate impoverishment of whole people-groups by other people-groups? Or, at least, such perceptions or mentalities?

Chris laid it out earlier - its greed & lust of the eyes that is the average naija man's problem. He is not satisfied to have just his daily bread, he must have daily jeep, daily mansion and daily fat bank account.

Chris was quite wrong, at least when you take the Nigeria story wholesale. I know that the average Nigerian is self-centered and grabbing, but it is not a situation in isolation. Every people- and interest-group in Nigeria claims some history of deprivation. We are an insecure people. We are self-centered because we are afraid of getting trampled in the rush for survival. If I did business with a Nigerian, I'd factor in a survivalist mentality.

I believe the problem to be very solvable. If serious business factors Nigeria's psychology in, the economic landscape would begin to significantly transform. And with that, so would so much more.

Ihedinobi:

This is the point at which we truly differ. I do not believe that it is possible to be a Christian and not be a realist or that it is possible to be a realist without the Faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Did you mean to say the opposite^? that you do not believe you can be a christian AND a realist at the same time?

Being realistic means taking full account of all the factors at play in the situation under study. Is God a factor or is He not? Should He be accounted for in Nigeria's situation or not? Also, is there sense in my point that as long as there is one untried solution and a will to pursue it there's hope or is there not? I don't mean to sound confrontational o, sorry if I do.

Not confrontational at all, we're having a spirited discussion .

Is God "accountable" for Nigeria's situation? He is - to the extent He is accountable for the choices & decisions you make - and last I checked there are no zombies with God pulling the strings. I believe He is able to work within our personal and individual choices toward His greater purpose - His Will will ultimately prevail. So no. God is not 'responsible' for what naija has become, we are.

I admire your optimism really, cos you're one of very few who feel that way.

Do these places of which you speak have a history of deprivation and deliberate impoverishment of whole people-groups by other people-groups? Or, at least, such perceptions or mentalities?

Ah, you would first have to seperate issues.

On a historical scale of 1-10 of 'deprivation' & 'impoverishment' where do you think nigerians fall? I don't think we're close to even tipping the balance self. Furthermore, we tend to speak often as though the evil that happens in naija is inflicted by a ruling class upon the poorer - I say a big fat wrong! all classes are equally jawing after the other. All levels are corrupt from the gateman who colludes with armed robbers to rob his oga to the lowly customs agent who wants you to 'settle' him before releasing your goods to the politician looting millions - everyone is guilty.

Let us use ghana again for comparison. I spent some good time there and visited some slums, I entered living rooms that were the size of my bathroom at home, I visited shacks built on water - the whole time we were never scared for our lives or concerned about crime cos they were peaceful places in spite of their lack. Infact I was so humbled by the grace of these people, cooking the fresh fish they caught that day for strangers and hugging you with big smiles on their faces....I'm sure they wish for better living conditions - the difference is they don't go about stealing from, killing & violating their fellow citizens out of "frustration".

nah, I'm certain of it - Poverty merely amplifies what you already are inside.

Chris was quite wrong, at least when you take the Nigeria story wholesale. I know that the average Nigerian is self-centered and grabbing, but it is not a situation in isolation. Every people- and interest-group in Nigeria claims some history of deprivation. We are an insecure people. We are self-centered because we are afraid of getting trampled in the rush for survival. If I did business with a Nigerian, I'd factor in a survivalist mentality.

I believe the problem to be very solvable. If serious business factors Nigeria's psychology in, the economic landscape would begin to significantly transform. And with that, so would so much more.

And it is an excuse! a weak one that seeks to deflect personal accountability and instead blame others or a system for their own shortcomings. Self-preservation does not have to come at the expense of 'trampling' on your neighbor in the rush to 'survive' - I put survive in quote because I don't think its just 'survivalist mentality' - its I want to be rich mentality - simply put. I don't think the average nigerian would be content to have just his daily bread - I honestly don't.

JeSoul: Did you mean to say the opposite^? that you do not believe you can be a christian AND a realist at the same time?

No I mean exactly what I said. Your earlier statement implies that realism is a persuasion separate from faith. That is untrue. It is because we're Christians that we are realists. Realism isn't something we can carry on in addition to our faith.

Is God "accountable" for Nigeria's situation? He is - to the extent He is accountable for the choices & decisions you make - and last I checked there are no zombies with God pulling the strings. I believe He is able to work within our personal and individual choices toward His greater purpose - His Will will ultimately prevail. So no. God is not 'responsible' for what naija has become, we are.

You misunderstand me, sis. I asked whether God is a factor that can be accounted for in an appraisal of the Nigerian situation or not. That is, is He a factor worthy of consideration when evaluating Nigeria? Not, is He the cause, in any way, of Nigeria's woes?

I admire your optimism really, cos you're one of very few who feel that way.

I am trying to tell you that it's not emotional optimism or unfounded hope. I think that anyone who writes off Nigeria is ill-educated on her situation.

Ah, you would first have to seperate issues.

On a historical scale of 1-10 of 'deprivation' & 'impoverishment' where do you think nigerians fall? I don't think we're close to even tipping the balance self. Furthermore, we tend to speak often as though the evil that happens in naija is inflicted by a ruling class upon the poorer - I say a big fat wrong! all classes are equally jawing after the other. All levels are corrupt from the gateman who colludes with armed robbers to rob his oga to the lowly customs agent who wants you to 'settle' him before releasing your goods to the politician looting millions - everyone is guilty.

Forgive me, but I think you miss the point again. I asked if the places you spoke of have complexities like Nigeria's? I saw a cartoon once depicting every ethnic interest in Nigeria as claiming marginalization. The cartoon asked, "who is marginalizing who?"

My point was Nigeria has baggage beyond mere poverty (which poverty is actually imaginary).

Let us use ghana again for comparison. I spent some good time there and visited some slums, I entered living rooms that were the size of my bathroom at home, I visited shacks built on water - the whole time we were never scared for our lives or concerned about crime cos they were peaceful places in spite of their lack. Infact I was so humbled by the grace of these people, cooking the fresh fish they caught that day for strangers and hugging you with big smiles on their faces....I'm sure they wish for better living conditions - the difference is they don't go about stealing from, killing & violating their fellow citizens out of "frustration".

I find this story reminiscent of the accounts and testimonies of westerners who visit spots in Africa they were hitherto unfamiliar with and which they had pretty low expectations of. Their testimonies tended toward "such happy people . . .", "such hardworking people . . .", "such (insert necessary ooh's and aah's here) . . ."

Suffice to say, Ghana has to be beating the same troubles Nigeria is plagued with before I take significant notice of them. Also, foreigners have been to some parts of Naija about which they said pretty much the same things.

nah, I'm certain of it - Poverty merely amplifies what you already are inside.

So does wealth.

And it is an excuse! a weak one that seeks to deflect personal accountability and instead blame others or a system for their own shortcomings. Self-preservation does not have to come at the expense of 'trampling' on your neighbor in the rush to 'survive' - I put survive in quote because I don't think its just 'survivalist mentality' - its I want to be rich mentality - simply put. I don't think the average nigerian would be content to have just his daily bread - I honestly don't.

Forgive my saying so, sis, but you're terribly out of touch with Nigerian realities.

The Nigerian is a ravenously hungry man who's sitting and watching a feast he's been told is his disappearing into the bellies of the people who say it's his and who assure him they mean to feed him with it. The (un)funny thing is these same people were his comrades right the minute before agitating with him for control of the feast so that they don't starve to death. He's seen it so many times that he's just gone cynical. He no longer believes or trusts anyone to care about him. So he takes care of himself.

Obi steals all he can because he feels entitled to it and if he doesn't try to get it somehow, he might end up out in the cold with no warm clothes, not merely cos he's greedy. That's Nigerian reality.

Ihedinobi:

No I mean exactly what I said. Your earlier statement implies that realism is a persuasion separate from faith. That is untrue. It is because we're Christians that we are realists. Realism isn't something we can carry on in addition to our faith.

Unless my comphrehension is suddenly failing me... aren't these two statements contradictory?

-It is because we're Christians that we are realists
-Realism isn't something we can carry on in addition to our faith


In either case, I didn't imply having a realistic approach is incompatible with faith - infact I was trying to say that was exactly my stance.

You misunderstand me, sis. I asked whether God is a factor that can be accounted for in an appraisal of the Nigerian situation or not. That is, is He a factor worthy of consideration when evaluating Nigeria? Not, is He the cause, in any way, of Nigeria's woes?

You're asking a christian if "God is a factor worth considering" (in whatever situation)?

I am trying to tell you that it's not emotional optimism or unfounded hope. I think that anyone who writes off Nigeria is ill-educated on her situation.

You would be hard-pressed to prove this point my dear. Is there a chance anything can happen? of course. The probability of that is what would render your hope/optimism realistic or not - and if you're truly a realist you must admit nigeria's situation is dire.

Forgive me, but I think you miss the point again. I asked if the places you spoke of have complexities like Nigeria's? I saw a cartoon once depicting every ethnic interest in Nigeria as claiming marginalization. The cartoon asked, "who is marginalizing who?"

You seem to be echoing my points without realizing it.

I maintained naija's case is not one of an elite class pushing around the lower class - but rather a vicious cycle where all are perpetuating evil towards each other.

I don't disagree nigeria has unique complexities - heck which country on earth doesn't have its own unique challenges? Perhaps nigerian's seperate themselves on tribe - someone mentioned earlier if human being could seperate themselves by hair color they would.

My point was Nigeria has baggage beyond mere poverty (which poverty is actually imaginary).

Again, I never said otherwise, I merely mentioned poverty as one of the problems.

I find this story reminiscent of the accounts and testimonies of westerners who visit spots in Africa they were hitherto unfamiliar with and which they had pretty low expectations of. Their testimonies tended toward "such happy people . . .", "such hardworking people . . .", "such (insert necessary ooh's and aah's here) . . ."

So because it echoes of something a westerner might say it should be dismissed?

Suffice to say, Ghana has to be beating the same troubles Nigeria is plagued with before I take significant notice of them. Also, foreigners have been to some parts of Naija about which they said pretty much the same things.

Now you miss the point. Every country from 1st world to 3rd world will have good & bad areas - I'm trying to point you in the direction of the mentality of the people and how even though ghanians are our next door neighbors, they differ in thinking from us - to their credit.

So does wealth.

not in dispute.

Forgive my saying so, sis, but you're terribly out of touch with Nigerian realities.

Along with all the other posters on this thread who've echoed my sentiments?

No one is saying Nigerians aren't "poor" or don't have it difficult. I asked you to rank it on a scale of 1-10 compared to other poor countries out there so we can put things in perspective.

Wanting to have the same well-off life mr Emeka has does NOT count as suffering. Chris eloquently said that nigerians are not satisfied to simply have their daily bread and he is right.

The Nigerian is a ravenously hungry man who's sitting and watching a feast he's been told is his disappearing into the bellies of the people who say it's his and who assure him they mean to feed him with it. The (un)funny thing is these same people were his comrades right the minute before agitating with him for control of the feast so that they don't starve to death. He's seen it so many times that he's just gone cynical. He no longer believes or trusts anyone to care about him. So he takes care of himself.

Obi steals all he can because he feels entitled to it and if he doesn't try to get it somehow, he might end up out in the cold with no warm clothes, not merely cos he's greedy. That's Nigerian reality.

I don't necessarily disagree with this part...I'm just trying to hit home the fact that this does not qualify as 'suffering' - it is coveting what someone else has though you have enough to live on.

Jesoul, I avoided this thread because my solution is first to do with illogical baggage that Nigerians carry. Power distance, institutionalized bribery and unrestrained religion.



Religion is part of the problem in Nigeria and second to only corruption. The fact that you believe faith and realistic solutions can go hand in hand is problematic.


There is a limit to which we can agree on solutions. We can talk about corruption and lack of security in Nigeria but we will never agree on religion.


Quite shameful. You fail to see that when you carry christianity or islam as good things for Nigeria, you are part of the problem.


I wonder why someone will look at Sweden, Denmark, Japan and many other top advanced countries and still think that religion is necessary or a good thing

Logicboy03: Jesoul, I avoided this thread because my solution is first to do with illogical baggage that Nigerians carry. Power distance, institutionalized bribery and unrestrained religion.

Which one be "power distance"? abeg explain.

Religion is part of the problem in Nigeria and second to only corruption. The fact that you believe faith and realistic solutions can go hand in hand is problematic.

There is a limit to which we can agree on solutions. We can talk about corruption and lack of security in Nigeria but we will never agree on religion.


Quite shameful. You fail to see that when you carry christianity or islam as good things for Nigeria, you are part of the problem.


I wonder why someone will look at Sweden, Denmark, Japan and many other top advanced countries and still think that religion is necessary or a good thing

I look at it the same way I look at partisan politics.

A hallmark of a well-functioning society is not the absence of religion (as some of you atheists will insist) or else why are countries like the US doing fine? It is rather assigning & relegating issues to their proper place...^by this I mean I will not bring in principles in the Beatitudes or parables and attempt to apply them when I'm mixing chemical compunds in the Lab.

A hallmark of a well-functioning society is not the absence of religion - it is the proper practice of it in proper context - along with other pillars of science, economics, common-sense etc.

JeSoul: Which one be "power distance"? abeg explain.


I look at it the same way I look at partisan politics.

A hallmark of a well-functioning society is not the absence of religion (as some of you atheists will insist) or else why are countries like the US doing fine? It is rather assigning & relegating issues to their proper place...^by this I mean I will not bring in principles in the Beatitudes or parables and attempt to apply them when I'm mixing chemical compunds in the Lab.

A hallmark of a well-functioning society is not the absence of religion - it is the proper practice of it in proper context - along with other pillars of science, economics, common-sense etc.

Power distance (You learn this in Management/Business when dealin with international culture). Power distance is the degree to which people in a society accept inequality in authority among people. Power distance in Nigeria ia high as we give huge respect to elders/leaders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_distance#Dimensions_of_national_cultures



I dont want to eliminate religion. However, the importance of religion has to be reduced to a personal level where everybody is free to practice his religion but can not force it on others. This also means that religion is not given any preferential treatment- no blasphemy and no laws based on religion.

This can not happen in a society where someone is not allowed to put up a signboard saying "there is no god" without death threats and destrcution of private property.


I want a country where the people understand that secularism is the default position. Your faith is taking a leap with no evidence. The moment you understand that, you will never ever think of forcing morals on someone who doesnt share your faith.

I have no problem with people of faith sharing their religion but they must understand that they are not doing something that is plainly good. Religion is neither good nor bad. It has both negative and positive consequences

The excesses of religion - 'over reliance on God, willful disregard for scientific advice and solutions in place of miracles, amongst others'

@logicboy: were those nations advanced, then atheism? Or their atheism preceded their advancement?

I live with a few guys here, who were sponsored by a church in Nigeria. These guys are not ready to listen to common sense. A normal dialogue with them would go as follows

Me: are the indians going to hell?
Them: yes

Me: but you're here learning from them, living a much better and secure life here, compared to the guys you left home
Them: and so? God has a purpose for everything. Satan also has power.

Me: but your country is messed up.. Does that mean God's powerless?
Them: God has a time for everything.. One day, indians will come to Nigeria for education too.

After a few of these dialogues, I've literally given up.
It'll be difficult to make Nigerians drop their religion, even IF You tell them it'll bring an end to corruption..

@Jesoul:

You are right on. Nigerians are an extremely covetous lot.
Ofcourse, there are lack of opportunities for many in Nigeria,but like you said, that is not unique to Nigeria.

Nigeria is also full of opportunities for anyone willing to work hard(or suffer, as they call it). But everyone has been lulled into this culture of instant gratifications and instant riches. Our attitudes and work ethics are atrocious compared to what is obtained our third woorl peers like , as you mentioned, Ghana.

With a fertile land and 150 million to feed, how many are engaged in agriculture and food production?.
How many of our arm-robbery and kidnapping suspects would be proud to earn a living producing food, or trading in crayfish?

How many times has anyone of us tried to give someone an opportunity only for them to turn around and rob or swindle us in order to get their instant gratification?.
Covetousness is the word.
Covetousness at all levels, that is the bane of Nigeria's cultural,political and economic landscapes.

I like how religious people always make 2 wrong arguments


1) That atheists want to eliminate religion

2) USA is doing well with religion

-------------------------------


1) I dont want to eliminate religion as an atheist. What I want is for religion to be kept where it should be- away from government and laws. You can have your religious freedom to practice, spread and share your religion but you cant force it on others.


2) The USA is suffering with religion. Look at how they are still battling with creationism. Where a Senator in the science commitee was claiming that evolution is nonsense. What about Senators that are saying that rape is from God? What about violence that is much more compared to other Western countries like Sweden and Japan- where in America abortion clinics are bombed, gay children abused and bullied, etc.

America is not the most developed or the most peaceful nation in the world. The countries that beat America are quite atheistic.

plaetton: @Jesoul:

You are right on. Nigerians are an extremely covetous lot.
Ofcourse, there are lack of opportunities for many in Nigeria,but like you said, that is not unique to Nigeria.

Nigeria is also full of opportunities for anyone willing to work hard(or suffer, as they call it). But everyone has been lulled into this culture of instant gratifications and instant riches. Our attitudes and work ethics are atrocious compared to what is obtained our third woorl peers like , as you mentioned, Ghana.

With a fertile land and 150 million to feed, how many are engaged in agriculture and food production?.
How many of our arm-robbery and kidnapping suspects would be proud to earn a living producing food, or trading in crayfish?

How many times has anyone of us tried to give someone an opportunity only for them to turn around and rob or swindle us in order to get their instant gratification?.
Covetousness is the word.
Covetousness at all levels, that is the bane of Nigeria's cultural,political and economic landscapes.

If a white man in Britain said what you just said, he would be branded as a racist and accused of ignorance towards Nigerians.

It is not greed but a system of greed forced upon them from corrupt and ineffective governments.


Why would a young nigerian invest in farming crayfish when the govt provides no subsidy and he has no electricity to store the crayfish? In UK, there are govt incentives for farming and there is electricity. There are incentives for starting clean british businesses.

Logicboy03:


Power distance (You learn this in Management/Business when dealin with international culture). Power distance is the degree to which people in a society accept inequality in authority among people. Power distance in Nigeria ia high as we give huge respect to elders/leaders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_distance#Dimensions_of_national_cultures

Thanks for the education. Business courses were my least favorite

I dont want to eliminate religion. However, the importance of religion has to be reduced to a personal level where everybody is free to practice his religion but can not force it on others. This also means that religion is not given any preferential treatment- no blasphemy and no laws based on religion.

This can not happen in a society where someone is not allowed to put up a signboard saying "there is no god" without death threats and destrcution of private property.

I want a country where the people understand that secularism is the default position. Your faith is taking a leap with no evidence. The moment you understand that, you will never ever think of forcing morals on someone who doesnt share your faith.

I have no problem with people of faith sharing their religion but they must understand that they are not doing something that is plainly good. Religion is neither good nor bad. It has both negative and positive consequences

I have no problem with your quote here.

Except for where you're asking 'secularism' to be the 'default' position. By doing so you're unwittingly doing exactly the same thing you accuse religionists of - imposing a worldview on others. By "default", the majority of humans have historically held various religions sacred - sometimes towards their benefit and other times unto destruction - proving that religion itself it not the issue - it merely exposes what a person already is.

Logicboy03: I like how religious people always make 2 wrong arguments


1) That atheists want to eliminate religion

2) USA is doing well with religion

-------------------------------


1) I dont want to eliminate religion as an atheist. What I want is for religion to be kept where it should be- away from government and laws. You can have your religious freedom to practice, spread and share your religion but you cant force it on others.

Fair and is the position of many people of faith as well.

2) The USA is suffering with religion. Look at how they are still battling with creationism. Where a Senator in the science commitee was claiming that evolution is nonsense. What about Senators that are saying that rape is from God? What about violence that is much more compared to other Western countries like Sweden and Japan- where in America abortion clinics are bombed, gay children abused and bullied, etc.

America is not the most developed or the most peaceful nation in the world. The countries that beat America are quite atheistic.

The USA is "suffering" with religion? really? you may want to explain how. That a few rogue senators or people in leadership make boneheaded comments does not indicate a widespread epidemic of religious intolerance.

On violence in the USA - negro please . Violent crime happens practically everywhere. It may only seem to be more prevalent in the USA simply because it is reported and prosecuted, unlike many other places. Are you really arguing about gay tolerance in of all places the USA? please tell me how many other countries are better in tolerance save for a few european giants?

Logicboy03:


If a white man in Britain said what you just said, he would be branded as a racist and accused of ignorance towards Nigerians.

It is not greed but a system of greed forced upon them from corrupt and ineffective governments.


Why would a young nigerian invest in farming crayfish when the govt provides no subsidy and he has no electricity to store the crayfish? In UK, there are govt incentives for farming and there is electricity. There are incentives for starting clean british businesses.

Covetousness in Nigeria is from the bottom up, and not from top to bottom.
Effective Governments are not formed by aliens, they are from the populace. A corrupt culture will inevitably produce corrupt, ineffective governments.
the leaders of government are deaf and dumb not because they are foreign invaders who have come to loot our country, no, they are deaf and dumb because
that is what we, the people, produce and recycle.

plaetton: @Jesoul:

You are right on. Nigerians are an extremely covetous lot.
Ofcourse, there are lack of opportunities for many in Nigeria,but like you said, that is not unique to Nigeria.

Nigeria is also full of opportunities for anyone willing to work hard(or suffer, as they call it). But everyone has been lulled into this culture of instant gratifications and instant riches. Our attitudes and work ethics are atrocious compared to what is obtained our third woorl peers like , as you mentioned, Ghana.

With a fertile land and 150 million to feed, how many are engaged in agriculture and food production?.
How many of our arm-robbery and kidnapping suspects would be proud to earn a living producing food, or trading in crayfish?

Articulately said. The culture of instant gratification is a huge problem - along with the desire to out-do one another in material wealth. I was going to mention the farming aspect earlier and I'm glad you did. Many of the people "hustling" in lagos can return to their 'villages' and have a decent quality of life by living simply, if not begin an industry as you said.

But there is no "pride" or sense of "accomplishment" in tilling land or farming crayfish.

How many times has anyone of us tried to give someone an opportunity only for them to turn around and rob or swindle us in order to get their instant gratification?.
Covetousness is the word.
Covetousness at all levels, that is the bane of Nigeria's cultural,political and economic landscapes.

Infact ehn, Godbless you for this point. It is the one thing that truly takes my hope away, that someone can be so short-sighted as to take advantage of someone who's trying to help you advance. Naija problems ehn...

plaetton:

Covetousness in Nigeria is from the bottom up, and not from top to bottom.
Effective Governments are not formed by aliens, they are from the populace. A corrupt culture will inevitably produce corrupt, ineffective governments.
the leaders of government are deaf and dumb not because they are foreign invaders who have come to loot our country, no, they are deaf and dumb because
that is what we, the people, produce and recycle.

Agree completely. I was just about to reply logcboy to that effect.

@logicboy,
it is not the 'job' of the govt to provide you with a means of sustenance in form of work. As plaetton said, the govt is you. This is where personal responsibility and accountability comes in. Sure subsidizing programs and creating incentives are actions that go aways in helping, but they should not be the basis.

JeSoul: Thanks for the education. Business courses were my least favorite

No problem. We are all learning. Who knows, I might need marriage tips or some cultural knowledge from you someday!

JeSoul:
I have no problem with your quote here.

Except for where you're asking 'secularism' to be the 'default' position. By doing so you're unwittingly doing exactly the same thing you accuse religionists of - imposing a worldview on others. By "default", the majority of humans have historically held various religions sacred - sometimes towards their benefit and other times unto destruction - proving that religion itself it not the issue - it merely exposes what a person already is.

Wrong. Even many christians in Britain argue that secularism should be the defualt position of the government. Remember that secularism is not anti-religion but the only system where many religions have lived in harmony

JeSoul:
The USA is "suffering" with religion? really? you may want to explain how. That a few rogue senators or people in leadership make boneheaded comments does not indicate a widespread epidemic of religious intolerance.

On violence in the USA - negro please . Violent crime happens practically everywhere. It may only seem to be more prevalent in the USA simply because it is reported and prosecuted, unlike many other places. Are you really arguing about gay tolerance in of all places the USA? please tell me how many other countries are better in tolerance save for a few european giants?

In the UK, you wouldnt find MPs making the same statements on rape. You wouldnt find any MP equating creationism with evolutiuon when it comes to academic studies.

Atheists are disciminated against widely in America and so, there is widespread religious intolerance in the USA.


Violent crime happens everywhere, yes. But please, do not make the argument that crime is not well reported in many European countries please! Sorry but that argument fails. Even in Japan. Japan is more peaceful than america on the Peace index.


Tolerance of gays in the UK is well documented. The UK and EU countries are far more tolerant of gays than in the USA. Even your Senatoprs gfo as far as making homophobic retorts without fear. Even Japan and China are tolerant of gays.

The USA is backwards on many developed factors for a Western country thanks to religion

JeSoul: Agree completely. I was just about to reply logcboy to that effect.

@logicboy,
it is not the 'job' of the govt to provide you with a means of sustenance in form of work. As plaetton said, the govt is you. This is where personal responsibility and accountability comes in. Sure subsidizing programs and creating incentives are actions that go aways in helping, but they should not be the basis.

Electricity nko? Why did you ignore that part of my argument?

Security/police nko?



I never said the govt should provide work for people. My point is that the govt must create an environment conducive for people to start businesses and create jobs., That is a duty of the govt.

If the govt can not provide electricity, security, incentives for creating jobs and social amenties, then you have no right for criticing people that chose not to engage in productive activities.



Please, not every government activity for the people is welfare. If so go and build yor own roads and stop preaching over-hyped anti-welfare conservative rhetoric

Logicboy03:
No problem. We are all learning. Who knows, I might need marriage tips or some cultural knowledge from you someday!

cools .

Wrong. Even many christians in Britain argue that secularism should be the defualt position of the government. Remember that secularism is not anti-religion but the only system where many religions have lived in harmony

I don't contend that a neutral position would be 'best'. My point is the govt are simply people like you & me. Seperation of "church" & "state" can never be 'acheived' as long human beings are involved.

In the UK, you wouldnt find MPs making the same statements on rape. You wouldnt find any MP equating creationism with evolutiuon when it comes to academic studies.

But we would find you guys 'killing' yourselves over soccer & queen. Different flavas for different countries.

Atheists are disciminated against widely in America and so, there is widespread religious intolerance in the USA.

Please evidence & statistics, not emotional imaginations. I have never heard of anyone discriminated against based on their atheism - are you confusing it with naija?

Violent crime happens everywhere, yes. But please, do not make the argument that crime is not well reported in many European countries please! Sorry but that argument fails. Even in Japan. Japan is more peaceful than america on the Peace index.


Tolerance of gays in the UK is well documented. The UK and EU countries are far more tolerant of gays than in the USA. Even your Senatoprs gfo as far as making homophobic retorts without fear. Even Japan and China are tolerant of gays.

The USA is backwards on many developed factors for a Western country thanks to religion

Again many of these countries you've listed are notorious for racism, fascism and other isms... there is no utopian paradise anywhere. Some countries excel at one thing more than others. If you want to consider the entire package of socio-economic-politic-religious dynamics you'd be hard pressed to come up countries other than US, Canada, UK and a few other places. Or else why is everyone in the world flocking to those countries and not Slovenia, Qatar or Iceland on your index? quality of life is based on much more than just a "peace-index" rating.

Logicboy03:


Electricity nko? Why did you ignore that part of my argument?

Security/police nko?


I never said the govt should provide work for people. My point is that the govt must create an environment conducive for people to start businesses and create jobs., That is a duty of the govt.

If the govt can not provide electricity, security, incentives for creating jobs and social amenties, then you have no right for criticing people that chose not to engage in productive activities.



Please, not every government activity for the people is welfare. If so go and build yor own roads and stop preaching over-hyped anti-welfare conservative rhetoric

Lol...but you're the one who brought up with incentives & subsidies...I was merely replying to that. Where did I say the govt. should not provide security or proper infrastructures? In the presence of a govt. that has failed to provide these things the next thing is not to sit on your Behind and twiddle your thumbs in self-pity, (as plaetton said) there's an abundance of agricultural opportunities that otherwise 'proud' people won't take.

JeSoul: Lol...but you're the one who brought up with incentives & subsidies...I was merely replying to that. Where did I say the govt. should not provide security or proper infrastructures? In the presence of a govt. that has failed to provide these things the next thing is not to sit on your Behind and twiddle your thumbs in self-pity, (as plaetton said) there's an abundance of agricultural opportunities that otherwise 'proud' people won't take.

Farming is capital intensive.

You dont just start farming, you need capital to get land and tools and seeds/animals.


Government has to provide incentives in such industries.


Now, you claim that people shouldnt sit on their behind. How can they start farming when there is unemployment and they are poverty? Where does the money come from to start an agricultural business. God will provide,eh?


Furthermore, many Nigerians have left the honorable route due to lack of a conducive environment into yahoo-yahoo and oil bunkering.


Now, a christian like you will call them theives without looking at the big picture.

Will you steal to feed your starving child when you are broke? Thou shall not steal?

Logicboy03:


Electricity nko? Why did you ignore that part of my argument?

Security/police nko?



I never said the govt should provide work for people. My point is that the govt must create an environment conducive for people to start businesses and create jobs., That is a duty of the govt.


If the govt can not provide electricity, security, incentives for creating jobs and social amenties, then you have no right for criticing people that chose not to engage in productive activities.



Please, not every government activity for the people is welfare. If so go and build yor own roads and stop preaching over-hyped anti-welfare conservative rhetoric

Logicboy03, lets assume for the sake of this discussion that we suddenly get a committed leader who takes his time to repair and in some cases, demolish all the disfunctional parts of our social, political and economic system. This job, in reality would take about 20yrs of committed and sustained effort on the part of the leader, his appointees, and most importantly, the entire populace.
This would mean that the real gains of these efforts would not be fully manifest in least 20yrs.
Now, from our experience, what do you think would be the attitudes of the people after , lets say, 4yrs of sincere efforts(such as closing all the loopholes of fraud ,embezzlement and corruption,) but no visible benefits?.

Our recent experience shows that the people, the poor, the elites, the media, all would gang up and boo, insult, calumnise and resist this leader for not delivering the goods fast enough.
They would clamour for something new and someone new, and then, its deja vu all over again.