iv4fb:
@wiegraf and logic..., apologies for my choice of words, they were solely my opinion and I might be wrong, just that I never knew you guys would resort to insults and some touch of violence to protect what you've got. Once again, I'm sorry!

VIOLENCE? YOU'RE STILL SENSELESSLY ACCUSING PEOPLE? HAVE YOU LEARNED ANYTHING AT ALL?

Why so serious? You don't take any of this personally, yes? I'm pretty sure I'm very wrong sometimes as well

@wiegraf, I think u need to grow up, u don't have to insult ppl to make a point. For heaven's sake you haven't posted anything without insults. Are u so full of shyte? Who's accusing u? Aint u even worse that whatever accusation u got? If I don't learn-have u ever learnt anything in life? Appraise yourself before condemning ppl and fyi, if u got raised in the gutters of insults, u don't have to remain there-sometimes be positive and objective. I aint replying u no more, go ahead and spew more insults-thats what you're made up of.

iv4fb: @wiegraf, I think u need to grow up, u don't have to insult ppl to make a point. For heaven's sake you haven't posted anything without insults. Are u so full of shyte? Who's accusing u? Aint u even worse that whatever accusation u got? If I don't learn-have u ever learnt anything in life? Appraise yourself before condemning ppl and fyi, if u got raised in the gutters of insults, u don't have to remain there-sometimes be positive and objective. I aint replying u no more, go ahead and spew more insults-thats what you're made up of.

Holier than thou? You're bigot, you think you should be preaching? Well, if you accept your bigotry and maybe hypocrisy then you should be fine.

I'm not claiming to be mature half-wit. You clearly seem to be lacking some thinking skills. Where did I insult you in that post? Are you completely incapable of telling when one is serious and when one is not?

That said, again, you really are a bigot. Hopefully before you actually harm anyone you educate yourself

The muslims didn't get mad coz I said some breed 'bombers', the christians didn't get mad coz I said some defraud the poor but the atheist were already shouting 'troll', 'brain damage', 'bigot', 'hypocrisy', 'holier than thou' coz I said some support homosexuality-which isn't far from the truth.

Nevertheless, I've learnt that SOME atheist are more intolerant than any other sect and maybe one of the doctrines for those is 'Insults'.

Back to topic, I think there's hope only that its conditional.

iv4fb: The muslims didn't get mad coz I said some breed 'bombers', the christians didn't get mad coz I said some defraud the poor but the atheist were already shouting 'troll', 'brain damage', 'bigot', 'hypocrisy', 'holier than thou' coz I said some support homosexuality-which isn't far from the truth.

Nevertheless, I've learnt that SOME atheist are more intolerant than any other sect and maybe one of the doctrines for those is 'Insults'.

Back to topic, I think there's hope only that its conditional.

Why do you lie so much? Is that all you said about atheists? You lied that atheists contributed to the problems in Nigeria. You lied that there is a homosexual problem in Nigeria and atheists made it so.

iv4fb: @wiegraf, now I see why you're an atheist-! If atheism is not a religion then its what? Classify it for indeed I have no idea what it is. I didn't even talk abt persecutions here but abt extremists like you. My friend, you can call me whatever you like-thats absolutely what I think atheists are made up of. serve your self if you like. Atheism has contributed negatively to Nigeria-at least, look what you've turned to. If indeed you guys have no doctrine, no belief/unbelief, then its absolutely nothing. The 'no god', 'equality', 'evolution' and the likes are what?

If indeed I was wrong, shouldn't u have corrected me since you're one rather than fighting for it? You're a bigger bigot- now go ahead and spew more trash, that's atheism-hateism!

Chrisbenogor: This thread was opened to discuss the issues with Nigeria away from the razzzmattaz of the politics section. Y'all should take a chill pill and let of on all these back and forth accusations.
Even though different people have got different methods of dealing with issues, one of the signs I think of a very immature conversation is the trading of insults back and forth.

To those who are "atheists" kindly search Nairaland for nferyn and read his posts, to be honest the way some people go about it makes even me feel like it a religion to you guys. I believe there are countless threads to fully utilise this vitriol, no amount of shout downs or accusations back and forth would make anyone here have a damascus moment to go "aha the atheists are right or the christians are right".

To those who are theists I need not point out more that our honorable Mod Jesoul, I am not religious she is, Pastor Aio is in his own weird way but we all get along together. I know I am probably asking the boderline impossible but sheath your swords, I know a whole bunch of people I have learned a thing or two from on here that have stopped posting.

If only for this thread biko sheath your swords, let's discuss like its over yam, palm oil and some palm wine

Cheers guys.

Good talk. But maybe you for save your wisdom. All vex-vex de get expiry, se you know.

[quote author=iv4fb]@mee234, u should at least read through what you wrote before posting.

"bros u don't need to concentrate in other to be able to spell your name and you don't a university education to do that ether."

Maybe you intend saying "you don't NEED a university..."; btw, I think its 'either' not 'ether' and maybe you should have started ur sentence with a capital letter. So what were you trying to say again? I'm not qualified to criticize your post, I only pointed at those to show you that nobody is perfect, so channel your strength to do something else.

Okay, but that ur story is nothing but fiction. The list of cult members doing well is a very long one. Thank goodness you have the good sense to know nobody is perfect but your attitude on this thread shows you are a jackazz.
Tanx for the correction anyway.

Great thread. Sad thread.

This is an interesting topic – can Nigeria be salvaged? It’s a topic one spends good amounts of time discussing with friends and colleagues. The thread has progressed quite so permit me to first offer some comments on some of the interesting and brilliant perspectives offered so far before stating a few thoughts of my own.

Terrible experience Deep Sight had – a robbing tour of Victoria Island! Nothing shocks me in Nigeria anymore and honestly his story didn’t. Well, since he survived it – thank God! – I think it’s okay to banter about it. One phrase that will stay with me from the write-up is “the boy with the land cruiser” – you know, just like “binders full of women” scored a hit among the Twitterati. I even got someone to translate it into Yoruba for me and I tried to visualise them boys saying “Ma gbagbe lati my bobo kunrin to ni Landcruiser yen wa o”. And I’m still thinking about that Adam’s hammer thing. Anyone here has a clue as to what can be done? I’m thinking poured concrete ceiling, titanium steel doors, hardened iron windows. Where’s InesQor? He would have some ideas.

I have always said Nigeria does not have the worst rates of crime but the official response to crime is the problem. The issue of police response at the crime scene Deep Sight highlighted at the end of his article is well known. When Funsho Williams was murdered the Scotland Yard officers brought in to help with the investigation told us that our police could not even take the simple of steps of cordoning off the crime, taking photographs and looking for finger prints. The police allowed every Tomiwa, Dike and Harrietta to enter the place and the Yard officers, when they arrived, had a thousand prints on their hands! The senior officers travel abroad and probably watch C & I. They know about forensic investigation – so what is the problem? We can’t afford labs and computers and computer experts? We can’t afford helicopters and night vision and equipments? Within the last 24 hours we have had two successful attacks on a military base and a police special unit headquarters.

The arguments made by logicboy and Enigma are similar – that Nigerians are not necessarily bad people, they are forced by their environment to become bad and even amidst such badness you still get to see a lot of good everyday, sometimes even from the people who do otherwise bad things. There are a lot of tangents to this argument, but I won’t explore them. I will break the argument into just two – (i) whether Nigerians are inherently good, and (ii) whether Nigerians are good. I would agree that the majority of Nigerians are inherently good, but I seriously doubt the Nigerians we can classify as good people are the majority. I used to think that the majority of Nigerians are good, but like JeSoul, things I have seen have forced me to have a rethink. In fact, my exact words to a colleague recently was that “I had given up” on Nigerians and that “nothing good will come of Nigeria”. I apologise to anyone who feels shocked by these statements but they were not lightly made, and note I used the word will, not can.

I don’t want to dwell much on this, and I certainly don’t want to bore you but Wanja’s statement in Ngugi’s Petals of Blood helps explain things. “This world, this Kenya, this Africa knows only one law. You eat somebody or you are eaten. You sit on somebody or somebody sits on you.… Nothing would I ever let for free…. No, I will never return to the herd of victims.”

I think people are driven by a sense of “eat or be eaten”. In an environment such as ours it takes a lot – perhaps, a highly elevated spirit or advanced intellect – to stay above it. It is possible to remain a good person – in fact, lowering your standards or morals is not really an option, but you better be “smart” otherwise people may keep taking advantage of you.

Sometimes I think maybe we are just plain dumb as a people. A couple of days ago someone was heaping praises on the Lagos commissioner of police for “working assiduously to route crime” in the city and they were giving an award to the IGP for “pragmatism”. We focus on irrelevant things like titles. We are always organising awards. Whenever anyone who held high office dies they go there and heap praises on him. Yet the country is messed up. Who messed it up? And what about those who steal billions and spend a little of it building churches in an unconscious attempt to bribe God and “make heaven”?

*BRB with my thoughts on JeSoul’s question.*

MyJoe: Great thread. Sad thread.

This is an interesting topic – can Nigeria be salvaged? It’s a topic one spends good amounts of time discussing with friends and colleagues. The thread has progressed quite so permit me to first offer some comments on some of the interesting and brilliant perspectives offered so far before stating a few thoughts of my own.

Terrible experience Deep Sight had – a robbing tour of Victoria Island! Nothing shocks me in Nigeria anymore and honestly his story didn’t. Well, since he survived it – thank God! – I think it’s okay to banter about it. One phrase that will stay with me from the write-up is “the boy with the land cruiser” – you know, just like “binders full of women” scored a hit among the Twitterati. I even got someone to translate it into Yoruba for me and I tried to visualise them boys saying “Ma gbagbe lati my bobo kunrin to ni Landcruiser yen wa o”. And I’m still thinking about that Adam’s hammer thing. Anyone here has a clue as to what can be done? I’m thinking poured concrete ceiling, titanium steel doors, hardened iron windows. Where’s InesQor? He would have some ideas.

I have always said Nigeria does not have the worst rates of crime but the official response to crime is the problem. The issue of police response at the crime scene Deep Sight highlighted at the end of his article is well known. When Funsho Williams was murdered the Scotland Yard officers brought in to help with the investigation told us that our police could not even take the simple of steps of cordoning off the crime, taking photographs and looking for finger prints. The police allowed every Tomiwa, Dike and Harrietta to enter the place and the Yard officers, when they arrived, had a thousand prints on their hands! The senior officers travel abroad and probably watch C & I. They know about forensic investigation – so what is the problem? We can’t afford labs and computers and computer experts? We can’t afford helicopters and night vision and equipments? Within the last 24 hours we have had two successful attacks on a military base and a police special unit headquarters.

The arguments made by logicboy and Enigma are similar – that Nigerians are not necessarily bad people, they are forced by their environment to become bad and even amidst such badness you still get to see a lot of good everyday, sometimes even from the people who do otherwise bad things. There are a lot of tangents to this argument, but I won’t explore them. I will break the argument into just two – (i) whether Nigerians are inherently good, and (ii) whether Nigerians are good. I would agree that the majority of Nigerians are inherently good, but I seriously doubt the Nigerians we can classify as good people are the majority. I used to think that the majority of Nigerians are good, but like JeSoul, things I have seen have forced me to have a rethink. In fact, my exact words to a colleague recently was that “I had given up” on Nigerians and that “nothing good will come of Nigeria”. I apologise to anyone who feels shocked by these statements but they were not lightly made, and note I used the word will, not can.

I don’t want to dwell much on this, and I certainly don’t want to bore you but Wanja’s statement in Ngugi’s Petals of Blood helps explain things. “This world, this Kenya, this Africa knows only one law. You eat somebody or you are eaten. You sit on somebody or somebody sits on you.… Nothing would I ever let for free…. No, I will never return to the herd of victims.”

I think people are driven by a sense of “eat or be eaten”. In an environment such as ours it takes a lot – perhaps, a highly elevated spirit or advanced intellect – to stay above it. It is possible to remain a good person – in fact, lowering your standards or morals is not really an option, but you better be “smart” otherwise people may keep taking advantage of you.

Sometimes I think maybe we are just plain dumb as a people. A couple of days ago someone was heaping praises on the Lagos commissioner of police for “working assiduously to route crime” in the city and they were giving an award to the IGP for “pragmatism”. We focus on irrelevant things like titles. We are always organising awards. Whenever anyone who held high office dies they go there and heap praises on him. Yet the country is messed up. Who messed it up? And what about those who steal billions and spend a little of it building churches in an unconscious attempt to bribe God and “make heaven”?

*BRB with my thoughts on JeSoul’s question.*

Gbam...gbam....gbam!!


Great comment! My sentiments exactly!

What I have observed is that the "intellectuals" among Nigerians are enormously skilled at defining and redefining Nigeria's problems. I think that is an indispensable skill but when it is unaccompanied by its twin - creativity - said intellectuals become cynics reeking of pessimism.

@JeSoul
Long time and how is you doing?

I want to attempt the ICAN kweshun.

Can Nigeria change for the better? My short answer is Yes.

Will Nigeria change for the better? My short answer is No.

For Nigeria to change, you need a top down approach. I agree with plaetton that the problem is bottom up since the leadership don’t drop from outer space. But the solution cannot be bottom up since it is impossible to get everyone to be good at the same time. It will have to be top down. To those who said the solution lies in business – well, I feel qualified to comment on that, having made three attempts at starting business in Nigeria, two of them unsuccessful and the other successful. Maybe some other time. But I do agree firmly with logicboy and Enigma that the idea that people can simply go back to the land is simplistic. Nigeria is not business friendly. I have heard people lately saying we should forget about the government and simply embrace entrepreneurship. I think they are living in a parallel world. The government is one huge problem in Nigeria and we can’t just forget about them. Many of the countries that have had devastating civil wars have better infrastructure than Nigeria. Even Somalia where there is no government and DR Congo where the government is of no use are better than Nigeria in many respects. At least, they have stable power supply in Mogadishu and if Deep Sight was in Mogadishu he would have known the score and definitely had one or two bodyguards carrying AK-47s with him in the car.

Yes, it is possible to do business in Nigeria. But it is hard, especially if you don’t have a solid financial background. Let me tell an anecdote to drive home the point. A teenage boy had a fascination with computers - he didn’t have access to them growing up. But one day he managed to attend a roadside computer training school. Then he went on the Internet and discovered business opportunities in affiliate marketing. He decided to purchase a computer so he could work from home and not spend too much on poor service in cybercafés. He had no money for a computer so he took on some afterschool jobs and “worked his a.ss off”. He begged and borrowed from friends and relatives. It took three quarters of a year, but the money was completed and he bought his computer. It took him about a week to realise that to “enjoy” his computer, he needed a UPS, as he kept loosing unsaved work and he was told his hard drive was at risk of crashing if he did nothing about the shock to it resulting from frequent power outage. He managed to buy a UPS. But guess what? The power holding company was fond of supplying “low current” to his place. The UPS brand he bought did not work well with “low current” and the frequent beeping was driving him crazy. He needed a stabilizer. And he bought one. But his problems were not over. The power holding company was getting worse by the day and nothing short of purchasing a generator would save him….

Yes, life is often about facing up to challenges. So some boy will overcome all the above and go on to be successful. Another will crumble and give up and vow never to attempt to start his own business again. Yet another will sell what remains of his computer and UPS and use the proceeds to proceed to a cybercafé for full time “yahoo runs”. I don’t think you or me are in a position to put down the one who gave up and vowed not to do business again as lazy or something like that just because someone else succeeded under the same circumstances. There are complex situations people face – temperament, family wahaha, upbringing, etc. And that, there, is a very small example.

The country is crawling with business opportunities, they say. And it is true, too. When you look around you, you can see these opportunities. But the fact is that if you do not have a strong financial background, nothing for you. First you need millions to buy a big generator. If you are in Lagos, God help you about rental, as that city’s property market has been distorted out of shape by people with stolen government money who buy houses in Victoria Island and Lekki and can leave these houses unoccupied for years while waiting for someone who can pay N10m rents. That is the reality: if you are among the few with N10 to pay for rent and another N10m to splash on generators, you can start a business. It is for these people that Nigeria is crawling with opportunities. Small business? Well, that is a matter for another day, but let’s just quickly say it’s the same problem. The same set of people distorting the property market have their wives and girlfriends leasing shops in upscale shopping malls. When you look at what they pay in rent and do some maths in your head you realise they are not really there for business but for the status of owning a shop at so and so place! The “common man” simply can’t complete. At places like Tejuosho the pro-elite Fashola administration has demolished “common man” shops and they are replacing them with these million naira shops. I personally know a couple of people who lost shops there. One of them, a lady, has joined the large army of those who wait on randy men to get by.

What was I saying? Yes, change will have to be top down. Two things are all it will take in my opinion – (i) leaders will have to lead by personal example, and (ii) crime will have to be punished. Once this is done the majority who are inherently good but turned bad because of their “environment” will see a reason to manifest good and it will be easier to deal with the few bad ones. This is not presently the case. What we need is a leader who can look Nigerians in the eye while telling them to make sacrifices. I am talking of a system where people see their legislator driving a simple car and living in a modest house and where the president’s feeding does not blow a hole in the budget. I believe this will go a long way in addressing the matter of impatience on the part of Nigerians that plaetton alluded to. Those who do figures will recall the figures that were bandied about during the fuel protest of early 2012. For example, we were shown figures comparing what the Spanish king spends in one year with what the Nigerian president spends.

In Lee Kwan Yew’s famous book, From Third World to First Word: The Singapore Story, he narrated the story of an African leader who came to a Commonwealth CHOGM asking that help be given to his country – not technical help, of course, but financial help. On a tarmac visible from the venue of the summit was a glistening jumbo jet belonging to the said African leader. It was parked there, idle, throughout the summit. The mumu leader did not see the irony, but those he was asking for money, leaders from serious countries who flew to the summit in commercial aircrafts did.

Anyone reading this thread who has either lived in Germany or is familiar with their people and culture will likely agree with me that frugality is partly responsible for their being Europe’s number one after taking a beating in two world wars. (Which is why I think them Greeks don’t get it and probably never will!) You can argue that the bottom up thing has worked for the Germans and the government reflects the people. But ostentatiousness was hardly our lifestyle.

Now to the issue that brought us where we are today – impunity. Corruption at the top was not so bad in early Nigeria. First Republic minister of petroleum, Maitama Sule, did not even own a house. Many of them left power not having houses – yet they created the problems that got us where we are today. Reports got to them of how much civil servants were stealing and they did nothing about it. A classic case was that of Joseph Tarka, Gowon’s young and flamboyant minister for communications. Mr Tarka was accused of corrupt dealing and self enrichment in his official capacity as a minister – or federal commissioner, as they called it then. No, not barroom gossip or banters made at the meat section of Ketu Market. The finger pointer took out an affidavit at the Lagos High Court and affidavit was complete with facts and figures – amounts, Swiss account numbers, addresses of houses, photographs, phone numbers, names of accomplices and all.

The government’s response? Gowon and his fellow “officers and gentlemen” running Nigeria simply chose to ignore it! In fact, when the minister for information was cornered by reporters at the airport, his pre-emptive response before the reporters could say anything summed up the attitude of the government - “Let me tell you questions I will not answer,” Anthony Enahoro said. “Don’t ask me any questions on Tarka. I will not answer”.

Today, impunity has assumed Olympian heights, with the justice system firmly in grips of the thieving and murdering political elite. Who has forgotten the efforts put in by our own AGF Aondoakaa to scuttle the prosecution of Dan Etete in Paris and the investigation of James Ibori in London? Ibrahim Lamorde, the serving head of the EFCC was a few days ago lamenting how his agency was only sending yahoo boys to jail while the big thieves got away.

I don’t know if you are familiar with the Odili case. About N100b is said to have “disappeared” during his time as governor of Rivers State. In the twilight of his days as governor, as his immunity from prosecution was about to expire and the then EFCC’s Nuhu Ribadu was talking tough, Mr Odili’s AG went to the High Court of Rivers State and obtained – wait for it – “a perpetual injunction” restraining just about anybody from ever asking him just about any question. A gelded EFCC later appealed against the injunction but they have never diligently pursued the appeal. A US-based Nigerian wrote a letter to the former CJN – the immediate past one, the same one who loudly asked for the death penalty for corruption, can’t recall his name right now - questioning the whole matter and asking how a judge could grant such an injunction. His Lordship told the Nigerian there was a problem with his letter and that was that. The case is effectively dead at the Court of Appeal. Someone said something about “orders from above”. Odili is free. In fact, his wife has risen rapidly from the Rivers State High Court to the Supreme Court within the time in question.

Odili is just one example. They are many and they only steal in billions.

Nigerian courts don’t convict. If they do, the big man gets away with a fine of N3m or so – Lucky Igbinedion - or they get sentenced to a few months in jail under special treatment – in the case of Cecilia Ibru the judge not only ordered that she serve the jail term in a hospital but actually specified a high brow hospital in Victoria Island. There is zero anti-corruption fight going on in Nigeria. There is a flash in the pan every now and then - like Bode George who was actually jailed and James Ibori who had to run like Ben Johnson – involving someone who fell out with “them”, but there is no sustained fight going on.

People see these and take note – if you steal small you go jail; if you steal billions, nothing dey happen. Elsewhere when the system catches a big thief like Bernard Madoff it is particularly harsh on him and example is made of him. In fact, the FBI will spend good money tracking such a person and letting small accomplices off the hook so they can build a good case against the big thief. In Nigeria, the reverse is the case. Some Arewa leaders just called for the death penalty for corruption – calls for the death penalty for corruption or kidnaping or just about any crime have been dropping from mouths like ripe mangoes from an overburdened tree lately. The foolishness of it is bewildering. It is not because the penalties are not harsh enough that there is corruption. One wonders what police or judiciary will bring people to their death penalty.

Now, can we get a leader who can lead by personal example and end impunity? A leader who will initiate laws to make “excellencies” and political office holders and mothers of the nation and honourables to live like normal people? A leader who can make political office less attractive? A leader who can do something about judges granting “perpetual injunction” against Nigeria? A leader who will roll up his sleeves and tackle the tough challenge of building institutions? A leader who is prepared to put his life on the line – yes, conspiracies and cabals do exist?

Flaunting is a Nigerian word and that is a problem. To curtail the Nigerian problem people will have to see their political and religious leaders living like middle class people. You can’t ask successful businessmen or oil workers or bank executives or telecomm “big boys” not to show off. But getting political and religious leaders on board can make some huge difference. Well, some religious leaders – there is still a measure of order in the old churches like Catholic and Anglican even if we can’t hope to get the Pentecostal leaders to “take it easy” with the ostentatious lifestyle since they are free citizens running private businesses in a capitalist system.

Now, to the second issue – will Nigeria change? No, because nothing leads me to believe that the kind of leaders I have fantasised about will emerge. The current system is bad and can be trusted to always throw up either a reprobate who stands at the head of a tribe of gluttons who eat so much and vomit on our shoes like Ibrahim Babangida, or someone whose obsession for power will blind him to real issues like Olusegun Obasanjo, or someone who is simply useless like Umaru Musa Yar’Adua, or someone who is just content to be president like Goodluck Jonathan.

The possible alternative to the solution I outlined above is a revolution. When a former establishment person like Bolaji Akinyemi and someone who has spent most of his life teaching and preaching constitutionalism and the rule of law like Ben Nwabueze start calling for a revolution, you know how bad things have got. But personally, I am deeply sceptical about revolutions. First, I doubt Nigerians can do it. If we march on the Nass and demand to be heard I think they will simply identify the leaders and pay dollars into their accounts. What if we make it a violent revolution like the Bolsheviks and the Iranians and the Arabs did and we march on Aso Rock and the Nass and beat them to death? Not that I would support any such killing of people, but let’s say it does happen - you can never tell how it will end. Well, maybe we can tell. The bolshies got Stalin – I’m not saying communism is of itself bad, far from it. Look what the Iranians got – the fatwa-spouting Ayatollahs and reactionary judges who can send a girl to jail for wearing something called “bad hijab”. Libya has replaced the rule of a crazy dictator with anarchy. Tunisia and Egypt offered some hope but look what Mursi just did, making the judiciary and just about anyone but himself irrelevant.

And back home look what happened after the 1966 revolution – over a million of us dead from pogroms, bullets, bombs and kwashiorkor. All for nothing because corruption reinforced and came back. Look what happened after every military coup we have had in Nigeria and other West African countries. After any Nigerian revolution tomorrow I would expect a batch of selfish mumus to take over and syphon money to Swiss accounts the way we never saw it before since it is their turn to “hammer”. Our traders will continue to go to China to give them specifications for bad products and electricity will not come. The reason most revolutions and coups fail to change things for the better is simple: the revolutionaries or soldiers who plot coups do not have the answers to the complex socioeconomic problems that plague countries. Revolutions and coups merely serve as outlets of pent up anger and frustrations. No, for a society that is so broken, one where values are no more, change will have to come from the top and it will have to take some time. My “it will have to take some time” cannot be a subterfuge for empty promises of a better future made by administrations like those of Obasanjo and Jonathan because once we get on the right track, once we get the kind of leadership I am fantasizing about here, it should be possible to tell.

There are many examples of countries that have been turned around from a hopeless state to that of hope. Stalin came through a revolution and turned a country of poor peasants into a superpower. But look at the cost. For more admirable examples of the kind of leader I am fantasising about, you have to look at post World War II Germany under Erhard and Adenaur. The United States under Roosevelt and England under Churchill. The “Asian Tigers” of Singapore, S. Korea and Malaysia also got such leaders. Even here in Africa, Museveni nearly made the list before he derailed and went the way of the rest of them “African leaders”.

@mee234, seriously, are u ok? Can you read? Who's talking about fiction and who's talking about cultism? Please contribute to the topic and if u have nothing to say then hold your peace and if you have comprehension issues, please I can't help you.

phew! I've been trying to attend to this thread for a few days now...

thanks to myjoe for injecting a fresh perspective to further enhance the conversation...myjoe you're just so darn smart chei! see response. Lemme try to respond proper...

---

@Ihedinobi, I have not removed the hook from your polo shirt yet oh I dey come too...

JeSoul: phew! I've been trying to attend to this thread for a few days now...

thanks to myjoe for injecting a fresh perspective to further enhance the conversation...myjoe you're just so darn smart chei! see response. Lemme try to respond proper...

Abi o! Me sef confirm am, lol. But sha I get answer

---

@Ihedinobi, I have not removed the hook from your polo shirt yet oh I dey come too...

hehehehehehehehe......... I go try make I no run

MyJoe: Great thread. Sad thread.

This is an interesting topic – can Nigeria be salvaged? It’s a topic one spends good amounts of time discussing with friends and colleagues. The thread has progressed quite so permit me to first offer some comments on some of the interesting and brilliant perspectives offered so far before stating a few thoughts of my own.

Terrible experience Deep Sight had – a robbing tour of Victoria Island! Nothing shocks me in Nigeria anymore and honestly his story didn’t. Well, since he survived it – thank God! – I think it’s okay to banter about it. One phrase that will stay with me from the write-up is “the boy with the land cruiser” – you know, just like “binders full of women” scored a hit among the Twitterati. I even got someone to translate it into Yoruba for me and I tried to visualise them boys saying “Ma gbagbe lati my bobo kunrin to ni Landcruiser yen wa o”. And I’m still thinking about that Adam’s hammer thing. Anyone here has a clue as to what can be done? I’m thinking poured concrete ceiling, titanium steel doors, hardened iron windows. Where’s InesQor? He would have some ideas.

You know all through the thread a poster here & there spoke about how to re-inforce their homes to protect against such a device...the only thing I could think of was "is this how to live? stowed away behind concrete walls or in a panic room beneath the floor - that you'll have had to hire out-of-town laborers to build for fear of an 'inside-job', constantly under fear? is this really how to live?

The arguments made by logicboy and Enigma are similar – that Nigerians are not necessarily bad people, they are forced by their environment to become bad and even amidst such badness you still get to see a lot of good everyday, sometimes even from the people who do otherwise bad things. There are a lot of tangents to this argument, but I won’t explore them.

And to be honest I don't even disagree with their assessment - my gripe is as you've continued below:

I will break the argument into just two – (i) whether Nigerians are inherently good, and (ii) whether Nigerians are good. I would agree that the majority of Nigerians are inherently good, but I seriously doubt the Nigerians we can classify as good people are the majority.

I used to think that the majority of Nigerians are good, but like JeSoul, things I have seen have forced me to have a rethink. In fact, my exact words to a colleague recently was that “I had given up” on Nigerians and that “nothing good will come of Nigeria”. I apologise to anyone who feels shocked by these statements but they were not lightly made, and note I used the word will, not can.

I don’t want to dwell much on this, and I certainly don’t want to bore you but Wanja’s statement in Ngugi’s Petals of Blood helps explain things. “This world, this Kenya, this Africa knows only one law. You eat somebody or you are eaten. You sit on somebody or somebody sits on you.… Nothing would I ever let for free…. No, I will never return to the herd of victims.”

I think people are driven by a sense of “eat or be eaten”. In an environment such as ours it takes a lot – perhaps, a highly elevated spirit or advanced intellect – to stay above it. It is possible to remain a good person – in fact, lowering your standards or morals is not really an option, but you better be “smart” otherwise people may keep taking advantage of you.

I'd like to explore this - this I think is my main gripe with Ihedinobi. Chris had earlier asked (and I loosely paraphrase) where does the sense of dog-eat-dog come into play in cases like stealing fuel from a rolled over tanker? like the recent story on the homepage of omoniles scamming unsuspecting land buyers? and other cases of mass reactions that were not directly influenced by the "eat or be eaten" concept? the man than jumped the line in front of me, the customs agent that wanted a bribe, the car robbery that we witnessed where the others cars simply 'throwayed' face? I'm having trouble attributing these kinds of behavior to simply the need to survive another dog trying to eat you - or maybe self-preservation is pre-emtive in this case.

Sometimes I think maybe we are just plain dumb as a people. A couple of days ago someone was heaping praises on the Lagos commissioner of police for “working assiduously to route crime” in the city and they were giving an award to the IGP for “pragmatism”. We focus on irrelevant things like titles. We are always organising awards. Whenever anyone who held high office dies they go there and heap praises on him. Yet the country is messed up. Who messed it up? And what about those who steal billions and spend a little of it building churches in an unconscious attempt to bribe God and “make heaven”?

Infact ehn, may your grey matter never loose shade lol. Thanks for pointing this out.

*BRB with my thoughts on JeSoul’s question.*

...that^ was just his introduction oh...

Ihedinobi:

Abi o! Me sef confirm am, lol. But sha I get answer

Lol. Myjoe is one dude I won't ever mess with

hehehehehehehehe......... I go try make I no run

Lol. We cannot lose one of our only 2 'optimists' on this thread . Wia is Enigma? I'd like to see his response to Myjoe's dissertation.

For someone that lives in the USA, you should know that the dog-eat-dog attitude mostly arises from the situation of the environment.


Take for instance the gangster and mafia era of the usa. The mafia were the omoniles (or omo niles). The charged businesses just for operating in their neighborhood. Sub-machine guns were use to rob banks and take out opposing gangs. Why did this all happen? The police were corrupt in the pocket of gangsters and politicians. The police didnt have firepower to match the weapons of the gangsters. The Federal government had to step in to solve this problem with the FBI.


So you see, people will take advantage of the lawlesness and corruption. The strong survive. Eat or be eaten. This is what happens when society is corrupt and broken down.

MyJoe: @JeSoul
Long time and how is you doing?

I'm doing oh sir. We thank God. And you? hope happyness is harrasing you daily. On another subject...you see wetin dey happen with our friends the MB in Egypt? hmm...

I want to attempt the ICAN kweshun.

Can Nigeria change for the better? My short answer is Yes.

Will Nigeria change for the better? My short answer is No.

Chei! Myjoe has summarized in 2 lines what I (thought I) have been trying to say for 7 pages.

For Nigeria to change, you need a top down approach. I agree with plaetton that the problem is bottom up since the leadership don’t drop from outer space.

nodding...agree too.

But the solution cannot be bottom up since it is impossible to get everyone to be good at the same time. It will have to be top down. To those who said the solution lies in business – well, I feel qualified to comment on that, having made three attempts at starting business in Nigeria, two of them unsuccessful and the other successful. Maybe some other time. But I do agree firmly with logicboy and Enigma that the idea that people can simply go back to the land is simplistic.

Seen this article? https://www.nairaland.com/1111613/70-yr-old-farmer-makes-n2m-annually

Farming is not an answer for everyone, I do think it is a viable option for many currently roaming the streets joblessly. And not solely farming for business reasons, but also for self-sustenance. It certainly beats what the vast majority of them are doing now - nothing. And by the way, I feel the need to say "much respect" for being able to start & grow a business in the nigerian landscape...only God knows the amount of hoops & hopskotch you've had to do.

Nigeria is not business friendly.

Ain't that the stonecold hardcore truth.

I have heard people lately saying we should forget about the government and simply embrace entrepreneurship. I think they are living in a parallel world. The government is one huge problem in Nigeria and we can’t just forget about them. Many of the countries that have had devastating civil wars have better infrastructure than Nigeria. Even Somalia where there is no government and DR Congo where the government is of no use are better than Nigeria in many respects. At least, they have stable power supply in Mogadishu and if Deep Sight was in Mogadishu he would have known the score and definitely had one or two bodyguards carrying AK-47s with him in the car.

Yes, it is possible to do business in Nigeria. But it is hard, especially if you don’t have a solid financial background. Let me tell an anecdote to drive home the point. A teenage boy had a fascination with computers - he didn’t have access to them growing up. But one day he managed to attend a roadside computer training school. Then he went on the Internet and discovered business opportunities in affiliate marketing. He decided to purchase a computer so he could work from home and not spend too much on poor service in cybercafés. He had no money for a computer so he took on some afterschool jobs and “worked his a.ss off”. He begged and borrowed from friends and relatives. It took three quarters of a year, but the money was completed and he bought his computer. It took him about a week to realise that to “enjoy” his computer, he needed a UPS, as he kept loosing unsaved work and he was told his hard drive was at risk of crashing if he did nothing about the shock to it resulting from frequent power outage. He managed to buy a UPS. But guess what? The power holding company was fond of supplying “low current” to his place. The UPS brand he bought did not work well with “low current” and the frequent beeping was driving him crazy. He needed a stabilizer. And he bought one. But his problems were not over. The power holding company was getting worse by the day and nothing short of purchasing a generator would save him….

Yes, life is often about facing up to challenges. So some boy will overcome all the above and go on to be successful. Another will crumble and give up and vow never to attempt to start his own business again. Yet another will sell what remains of his computer and UPS and use the proceeds to proceed to a cybercafé for full time “yahoo runs”. I don’t think you or me are in a position to put down the one who gave up and vowed not to do business again as lazy or something like that just because someone else succeeded under the same circumstances. There are complex situations people face – temperament, family wahaha, upbringing, etc. And that, there, is a very small example.

The country is crawling with business opportunities, they say. And it is true, too. When you look around you, you can see these opportunities. But the fact is that if you do not have a strong financial background, nothing for you. First you need millions to buy a big generator. If you are in Lagos, God help you about rental, as that city’s property market has been distorted out of shape by people with stolen government money who buy houses in Victoria Island and Lekki and can leave these houses unoccupied for years while waiting for someone who can pay N10m rents. That is the reality: if you are among the few with N10 to pay for rent and another N10m to splash on generators, you can start a business. It is for these people that Nigeria is crawling with opportunities. Small business? Well, that is a matter for another day, but let’s just quickly say it’s the same problem. The same set of people distorting the property market have their wives and girlfriends leasing shops in upscale shopping malls. When you look at what they pay in rent and do some maths in your head you realise they are not really there for business but for the status of owning a shop at so and so place! The “common man” simply can’t complete. At places like Tejuosho the pro-elite Fashola administration has demolished “common man” shops and they are replacing them with these million naira shops. I personally know a couple of people who lost shops there. One of them, a lady, has joined the large army of those who wait on randy men to get by.

Very well laid out and Logicboy said as much. The last paragraph and bolded bit is something I've always thought about and to hear someone in the know voice it out confirms what I suspected.

Where do you stand in the criticism or praise of what Fashola is trying to do with Lagos?

Logicboy03: For someone that lives in the USA, you should know that the dog-eat-dog attitude mostly arises from the situation of the environment.


Take for instance the gangster and mafia era of the usa. The mafia were the omoniles (or omo niles). The charged businesses just for operating in their neighborhood. Sub-machine guns were use to rob banks and take out opposing gangs. Why did this all happen? The police were corrupt in the pocket of gangsters and politicians. The police didnt have firepower to match the weapons of the gangsters. The Federal government had to step in to solve this problem with the FBI.


So you see, people will take advantage of the lawlesness and corruption. The strong survive. Eat or be eaten. This is what happens when society is corrupt and broken down.

I don't disagree with this LB. I'm asking about being in the proactive - scamming, misbehaving & harming people when no direct or immediate danger is posed to you.

JeSoul: I don't disagree with this LB. I'm asking about being in the proactive - scamming, misbehaving & harming people when no direct or immediate danger is posed to you.

Okay, I see

MyJoe: What was I saying? Yes, change will have to be top down. Two things are all it will take in my opinion – (i) leaders will have to lead by personal example, and (ii) crime will have to be punished. Once this is done the majority who are inherently good but turned bad because of their “environment” will see a reason to manifest good and it will be easier to deal with the few bad ones. This is not presently the case. What we need is a leader who can look Nigerians in the eye while telling them to make sacrifices.

men...this one go hard oh! lol. Even here in a developed nation where the going is relatively okay, people don't want to hear they need to make more sacrifices talkless of one where they're being sacrificed already on the daily. Dem go stone you out lol.

I am talking of a system where people see their legislator driving a simple car and living in a modest house and where the president’s feeding does not blow a hole in the budget. I believe this will go a long way in addressing the matter of impatience on the part of Nigerians that plaetton alluded to. Those who do figures will recall the figures that were bandied about during the fuel protest of early 2012. For example, we were shown figures comparing what the Spanish king spends in one year with what the Nigerian president spends.

In Lee Kwan Yew’s famous book, From Third World to First Word: The Singapore Story, he narrated the story of an African leader who came to a Commonwealth CHOGM asking that help be given to his country – not technical help, of course, but financial help. On a tarmac visible from the venue of the summit was a glistening jumbo jet belonging to the said African leader. It was parked there, idle, throughout the summit. The mumu leader did not see the irony, but those he was asking for money, leaders from serious countries who flew to the summit in commercial aircrafts did.

I think fish will fly, cows will run and Usain bolt will stroll before a Nigerian politician gives up his 'right' to flaunt. Is it possible? yes. Is it probable? hells no. And this has been my tussle with Ihedinobi.

Anyone reading this thread who has either lived in Germany or is familiar with their people and culture will likely agree with me that frugality is partly responsible for their being Europe’s number one after taking a beating in two world wars. (Which is why I think them Greeks don’t get it and probably never will!) You can argue that the bottom up thing has worked for the Germans and the government reflects the people. But ostentatiousness was hardly our lifestyle.

Excellent excellent point. The Greece meltdown is a whole nother thread.

Now to the issue that brought us where we are today – impunity. Corruption at the top was not so bad in early Nigeria. First Republic minister of petroleum, Maitama Sule, did not even own a house. Many of them left power not having houses – yet they created the problems that got us where we are today. Reports got to them of how much civil servants were stealing and they did nothing about it. A classic case was that of Joseph Tarka, Gowon’s young and flamboyant minister for communications. Mr Tarka was accused of corrupt dealing and self enrichment in his official capacity as a minister – or federal commissioner, as they called it then. No, not barroom gossip or banters made at the meat section of Ketu Market. The finger pointer took out an affidavit at the Lagos High Court and affidavit was complete with facts and figures – amounts, Swiss account numbers, addresses of houses, photographs, phone numbers, names of accomplices and all.

The government’s response? Gowon and his fellow “officers and gentlemen” running Nigeria simply chose to ignore it! In fact, when the minister for information was cornered by reporters at the airport, his pre-emptive response before the reporters could say anything summed up the attitude of the government - “Let me tell you questions I will not answer,” Anthony Enahoro said. “Don’t ask me any questions on Tarka. I will not answer”.

Today, impunity has assumed Olympian heights, with the justice system firmly in grips of the thieving and murdering political elite. Who has forgotten the efforts put in by our own AGF Aondoakaa to scuttle the prosecution of Dan Etete in Paris and the investigation of James Ibori in London? Ibrahim Lamorde, the serving head of the EFCC was a few days ago lamenting how his agency was only sending yahoo boys to jail while the big thieves got away.

I don’t know if you are familiar with the Odili case. About N100b is said to have “disappeared” during his time as governor of Rivers State. In the twilight of his days as governor, as his immunity from prosecution was about to expire and the then EFCC’s Nuhu Ribadu was talking tough, Mr Odili’s AG went to the High Court of Rivers State and obtained – wait for it – “a perpetual injunction” restraining just about anybody from ever asking him just about any question. A gelded EFCC later appealed against the injunction but they have never diligently pursued the appeal. A US-based Nigerian wrote a letter to the former CJN – the immediate past one, the same one who loudly asked for the death penalty for corruption, can’t recall his name right now - questioning the whole matter and asking how a judge could grant such an injunction. His Lordship told the Nigerian there was a problem with his letter and that was that. The case is effectively dead at the Court of Appeal. Someone said something about “orders from above”. Odili is free. In fact, his wife has risen rapidly from the Rivers State High Court to the Supreme Court within the time in question.

Odili is just one example. They are many and they only steal in billions.

Nigerian courts don’t convict. If they do, the big man gets away with a fine of N3m or so – Lucky Igbinedion - or they get sentenced to a few months in jail under special treatment – in the case of Cecilia Ibru the judge not only ordered that she serve the jail term in a hospital but actually specified a high brow hospital in Victoria Island. There is zero anti-corruption fight going on in Nigeria. There is a flash in the pan every now and then - like Bode George who was actually jailed and James Ibori who had to run like Ben Johnson – involving someone who fell out with “them”, but there is no sustained fight going on.

People see these and take note – if you steal small you go jail; if you steal billions, nothing dey happen. Elsewhere when the system catches a big thief like Bernard Madoff it is particularly harsh on him and example is made of him. In fact, the FBI will spend good money tracking such a person and letting small accomplices off the hook so they can build a good case against the big thief. In Nigeria, the reverse is the case. Some Arewa leaders just called for the death penalty for corruption – calls for the death penalty for corruption or kidnaping or just about any crime have been dropping from mouths like ripe mangoes from an overburdened tree lately. The foolishness of it is bewildering. It is not because the penalties are not harsh enough that there is corruption. One wonders what police or judiciary will bring people to their death penalty.

Mehn thanks so much for this history (and current) lesson. I do not doubt for an instant it is as you have laid it out here. We all 'know' this is what happens in the courtyards of power ........

I will be back to continue this post...duty calls. Hopefully be back 2moro to finish....

Logicboy03: For someone that lives in the USA, you should know that the dog-eat-dog attitude mostly arises from the situation of the environment.


Take for instance the gangster and mafia era of the usa. The mafia were the omoniles (or omo niles). The charged businesses just for operating in their neighborhood. Sub-machine guns were use to rob banks and take out opposing gangs. Why did this all happen? The police were corrupt in the pocket of gangsters and politicians. The police didnt have firepower to match the weapons of the gangsters. The Federal government had to step in to solve this problem with the FBI.


So you see, people will take advantage of the lawlesness and corruption. The strong survive. Eat or be eaten. This is what happens when society is corrupt and broken down.

Actually, this is quite an apt response.

JeSoul, I did explain that the survivalist mentality has become entrenched. It's a question of getting there first even if in reality you're in the race all by yourself. I don't mean that it's right, just that the psychology of the average Nigerian today is: look out for number 1 first and always, because any "dulling", no show for you.

A crashed petrol tanker is gold on the surface for the average Nigerian. A willing buyer of anything is nearly an irresistible prospect for the average Nigerian. An ongoing robbery that can be ignored for one's health's sake will be ignored by the average Nigerian.

In short, the average Nigerian no send again. Him own na "pepper de?" This is not right, but it is what is. The average Nigerian has mostly given up trying to build Nigeria, in fact, he's not certain what Nigeria is anymore. He's only totally certain that he'll do whatever it takes to never go hungry again.

That's just an effort to explain the "eat or be eaten" syndrome. And like logicboy said, you should know it intimately from US history. JeSoul, if I told you all the negative stuff I know about Nigeria, you'd appreciate that my stand that there is hope is no mere sentimental persuasion. For instance, I grew up in a home where poverty is not defined by unavailability of private-owned transportation or inability to keep up with the latest fashions, it was defined by the availability/lack of food and not necessarily nutritious food, just something that won't kill you for eating it.

Now the truth is that I agree in very large part with MyJoe. The only real point of disagreement I have with him is in the assumption that nothing will change. This assumption discounts the possibility of his envisioned kind of leader rising out of the masses to reclaim the nation.

Why should it be an utter impossibility? That it is very very improbable does not make it completely impossible. Yes, the decay is entrenched. Anarchy is settling in. Impudence is rife. Etc etc. Granted, all of this is true. But, apart from the lack of a real national identity, is the situation worse than it was for Germany after the First World War? Please judge both situations according to their uniqueness. Even Germany after the Second World War was not an easy problem to solve.

I agree with the declaration that Nigeria needs the kind of leader MyJoe alluded to to be set right and that such a leader is not readily available. But I do not agree that he does not exist. It may take some time for him to emerge but he does exist . . . among the impoverished masses.

Why would I say that? Because I know at least three people who love this land and take every opportunity they get to fight for her life. There need not be more for a start. Whereas it appears that some efforts are too small to matter, those very efforts are the things that steadily push up that person that will drive the change until he is positioned for that responsibility.

Two things I believe are the things most necessary to the work of changing the fate of this country: practicality and steadfastness. The people who believe in a positive future for Nigeria cannot afford to do so for merely sentimental reasons. It must be clear and solid why such a future is possible and worth pursuing. Also, every solution that they prepare must be true to the Nigerian situation. In this case, one size does not fit all. If these people have practical reasons and practical methods, they will not easily give up.

As for business, I agree with MyJoe that financial backing is indispensable. The business environment is exceedingly harsh. But I also know that Nigerians are mostly too tied up with ensuring survival to bother about doing things right. So, a visionary entrepreneur and a smart, practical one will ride on their negligence to incredible success. That's just too obvious. Not saying it's easy. I'm just saying that an attentive businessman can do a lot with Nigeria. And the truth is that wielding economic power actually translates to wielding political and social power as well. So the man who makes a tangible and praiseworthy difference in/for Nigeria economically stands in a good position to interest Nigerians politically and socially in his dreams.

JeSoul: . . . Wia is Enigma? . . . .

I've been rather heavily involved in some other matters.

Anyway, my answer is simple but expressed in terms of a question: if you say that Nigeria's case is "hopeless", do you mean for ever and always?

Supplementary questions?

"Hopeless" in what respect anyway? What is it you expect from Nigeria that you believe it will never realise?

If it takes 100 years for Nigeria to realise "it", is that "hopeless"? Can you see that far ahead?

Has there ever been a country that at any point in history could have been said to be in similarly bad and 'lawless' situation as Nigeria (eg someone mentioned America of an era; others?)? How long did it take any such country to get better?

The so-called advanced countries ---- how long did it take them to get where they are today and what did it cost them?

Even as things are today, are there some countries that are worse to be in than Nigeria or not (corruption or no corruption)? Are those countries "hopeless" too? Even those among them where there is little or no "corruption"?

Ah, by the way in that same Naija, there are people who are running businesses (of various sizes ranging from tiny to huge) successfully, legitimately and with reasonable honesty. I have examples.

*and she returns almost a week later*

Sorry folks...I can't believe how busy I have been and the little time I have to spend is spent cleaning threads, issuing cautions and stopping e-fights...my apologies to my in-law & Ihe for not being able to pursue the discussion in a timely manner .

Lemme see to Enigma's nice post...

Enigma:

I've been rather heavily involved in some other matters.

Oga I have no doubt...infact self na wonder you dey spend small time with us, big man like you .

Now to the jamb questions,

Anyway, my answer is simple but expressed in terms of a question: if you say that Nigeria's case is "hopeless", do you mean for ever and always?

Uhmm...erhmmm...lemme re-quote Myjoe:

Can Nigeria change for the better? My short answer is Yes.

Will Nigeria change for the better? My short answer is No.

Supplementary questions?

"Hopeless" in what respect anyway? What is it you expect from Nigeria that you believe it will never realise?

I expect "progress" - socially, financially, politically, 'infrastructurally' and other 'allys'...for starters, it would really be nice to be able to pass through customs at the airport without having to bribe somebody to do their job and not harrass you.

When my dad asked us to make sure we had extra money in our hands for customs I thought it was "optional".

If it takes 100 years for Nigeria to realise "it", is that "hopeless"? Can you see that far ahead?

Has there ever been a country that at any point in history could have been said to be in similarly bad and 'lawless' situation as Nigeria (eg someone mentioned America of an era; others?)? How long did it take any such country to get better?

That is one bone I can give you - the USA is ~230yrs - development does not happen overnight. But I will argue the seeds that have grown to what it is today were visible during the Lincoln days.

What positive seeds can you point to in our political system that inspires hope?

The so-called advanced countries ---- how long did it take them to get where they are today and what did it cost them?

Hold on dia....what do you mean by "so-called advanced countries"? you mean they are not advanced? mind yaself oh.

Even as things are today, are there some countries that are worse to be in than Nigeria or not (corruption or no corruption)? Are those countries "hopeless" too? Even those among them where there is little or no "corruption"?

Yup. Some countries are definitely worse than us - I don't intimately know enough about them to declare which is 'hopeless' and which isn't.

Ah, by the way in that same Naija, there are people who are running businesses (of various sizes ranging from tiny to huge) successfully, legitimately and with reasonable honesty. I have examples.

Ehen now, no argument that some are have thriving business - my singular qualm - what percetage of the population does this constitute? even cactuses grow in arid deserts so there is always a small resilient remnant that will be smart & lucky enough to 'make it'.

Above all...I really LOVE this part of your last quote:

there are people who are running businesses (of various sizes ranging from tiny to huge) successfully, legitimately and with reasonable honesty

in-law, what does "reasonable honesty" mean? lol. Someone opened a thread a while back and the surmised gist was it is impossible to do business successfully in naija without having to bribe or grease someone along the way. Myjoe alluded to this as well.

ps. pls don't feel obliged to reply...no telling when I'll have the time to reply again . At this rate I'm replying threads at a weekly pace ...dahm modding 'duties'.

I meant there is a pervasive sense of eat or you are eaten. To be sure, I agree it doesn’t explain everything, but you have to look at things on a larger scale. The Ononiles are collecting their “own” – that is how they see it. They know what’s happening in Abuja and Alausa and elsewhere. The only way it’s ever going to get to them is that piece of land! The same goes for those who siphon fuel, the sheer idiocy of their action being a separate matter. Some people will say this sort of morality is neither right nor wrong – it’s just the way things are. To me it is wrong; but still, it’s the way things are. People normally think they will be shortchanged if they play fair when everyone else isn't.

But I agree that Nigerians don’t live right. It’s complex like I said and eat or you are eaten does not quite suffice to explain it. Nigerians are, generally speaking, just badly behaved, even in the smallest of things – leaving the outside lights on in the daytime, throwing thrash out of a moving car and into the drainage, wasting food, etc. Things were not always like. There was a time in this country things worked – when you reported a problem to a government agency you got a response. When a kid failed a class he repeated it. When you entered a fuel station you had no fear someone would sell you bad fuel as good one. I think the situation of your environment creates a mentality. I can’t produce the link with scientific precision, but some evidence points to it. Let me tell you an incident to illustrate how the general mood of the country can affect a people. Around 2001 – not sure I’m getting the year right but it should be about then – when a new party came to power in Kenya, after the long years of Kanu and Moi. Shortly after President Kibaki and his gang of former opposition crowd were sworn in, promising “zero corruption” and a brand new Kenya, an incident took place in Nairobi. The bus got to a police checkpoint and as usual, the driver produce a crumpled note and was offering it to the cop. Suddenly, the passengers erupted – “Nooooo, they don’t do that anymore! Nooooo, they don’t do that anymore!” The policeman and the driver were shamed into aborting their foul act. Of course, it didn’t take long to become clear to everyone that it was business as usual, as the new leaders not only failed to deliver on their promises to get to the bottom of old corruption but started their own new corruption, Kenya being one of those countries that would give Nigeria a run for its money if you make an Olympic event of corruption.

Ihedinobi:
I agree with the declaration that Nigeria needs the kind of leader MyJoe alluded to to be set right and that such a leader is not readily available. But I do not agree that he does not exist. It may take some time for him to emerge but he does exist . . . among the impoverished masses.

Right, basically. But let’s look at one biblical parallel. When Elijah (or was it Elisha?) thought he was the only Yahweh loyalist remaining in Israel he was told there were 7000 besides him. No matter how bad a society gets, there are always good people. The presence of 7000 who had not bowed to Baal was ground for hope – hope that the nation was not lost and that the Messiah would still come. But it would all have been false hope if Elijah had then hoped for a renaissance in which Israel would be rid of idolatry and be restored fully to the worship of Yahweh just like things were in the glorious days of Moses and Joshua because that never happened in the prophet’s lifetime.

JeSoul: I'm doing oh sir. We thank God. And you? hope happyness is harrasing you daily. On another subject...you see wetin dey happen with our friends the MB in Egypt? hmm...

I'm fine o. Thank you for all your kind words.

I think something is going down down there. The MB already served us notice long ago, though - I'm just watching.

JeSoul:
Farming is not an answer for everyone, I do think it is a viable option for many currently roaming the streets joblessly. And not solely farming for business reasons, but also for self-sustenance. It certainly beats what the vast majority of them are doing now - nothing.

Unfortunately, there are many many practical problems in the way of this. On subsistence farming, I have been to a few staff quarters of universities and secondary schools in Nigeria. In those staff quarters where land is available, many professors have the sort of farm you are talking about behind their quarters. But in many places such land is not there. A lot of Nigerians would like to plant yams and melons beside their house if only they had the option.

Besides, you see, I know quite a bit about the grim task of farming in Nigeria, although, again, I am not going into many details. You see, many will tell you that Pa Oladeji is “lucky”. One of the reasons Nigerians are so self-centered and keen on “hammering” is the absence of social security. The extended family system that used to provide this is withering away and, of course, it was never available to everyone. In other words, once tragedy befalls you, you are on your own. Farming has a lot of hazards. As a commercial farmer in Nigeria, you are on your own because the government does not “send you”. Tell you what I mean.

In 1999 or 2000 (one of them) Nigerian farmers had a bumper cassava harvest – in fact, it was like one of the seven years of plenty once prophesied by a Yusuf. A certain commercial farmer in the SW was whistling contentedly to himself that morning as he oversaw final preparations for the harvest – the men and women that would uproot the cassava out of the ground, the trucks to convey them to the market, everything. Work stated. The workers uprooted cassava. The trucks loaded and made the first trip. They came back. And then the whole work stopped. The price of cassava had crashed – it had crashed such that sales was unlikely to cover the cost of labour for the day. The great farmer’s only option was to suspend work and send everyone home. He never returned to that farm because the price of cassava did not pick up that year. That was the fate of many cassava farmers that year. The following year this particular farmer did not plant – neither did many others. And that year saw the steepest rise in the price of cassava products the country had seen because we started importing [i]garri [/i]from Benin Republic to meet demand!

JeSoul:
That is one bone I can give you - the USA is ~230yrs - development does not happen overnight. But I will argue the seeds that have grown to what it is today were visible during the Lincoln days.

What positive seeds can you point to in our political system that inspires hope?

Exactly. I have had course to argue this point than once. When I heard Dieziani Alison-Madueke saying that at 50 Nigeria was not doing badly because at 50 Britain was still fighting the knights of the roundtable, I shook my head in pity. Or when someone reminds us that it took the US over a century (or how long was it?) to extend voting rights to women and longer than that to extend full constitutional protection to blacks. For God’s sakes the US got independence in 1776, not 1976. How do you use the standards of the past to judge today? That the US did not give women the vote in 1776 was not because they were backward or corrupt and not progressing, it was because of the TIME. You have to compare Britain’s level of development at 50 with countries that were 50 at the time not Nigeria in the 21st century. Nigerian leaders are not siphoning their country’s money to foreign accounts because it is what is expected of leaders in the 21st century. Customs aren’t stealing at our borders because of the TIME and Mrs Madueke and her fellow ministers aren’t awarding contracts and oil deals to friends and relatives who aren’t qualified and without due process because our country needs to pass through that process to get it right. The indices of progress were there in the States back then. The people cared about the country – especially the elite. Even the colonialists that came here 150 years ago did not steal to line their own pockets. They stole for their queen and country.

Now, let me say something briefly about Nigerian optimism. Optimism is good. No, not just for sentimental reasons like Ihedinobi pointed out, but there are practical reasons why keeping the hope alive can bring positive results. And optimism is certainly not something I can sit here and debunk (Copyright © logicboy0-3, logicbwoy, MacDaddy0-2, Cheers0-3).

The only thing I can do is to question the basis for Nigerian optimism. To illustrate. In 2002, shortly after Obasanjo and Buhari were announced as presidential candidates of the two leading parties for the presidential election of 2003, a British commentator said “the fact that it is these two that have been put forward shows that the Nigerian elite have not made up their minds for things to change.” Today, ten years later, where are we? A couple of days or so ago I saw a newspaper headline – “2015 Election: North Considers Atiku, Buhari and Lamido”! (You can Google it). Yes, in 2012, Nigerian kingmakers are seriously considering Atiku Abubakar, the former Customs boss whose name is synonymous with graft, who it is said used to collect $20,000 to sign contract papers when he was VP for the post of Nigeria’s presidency. And if that fails they can’t see past Buhari, a common coup plotter and a bye-word for ethno-religious irredentism. And if “worse comes to worse”, they have on standby Sule Lamido, the uninspiring governor of a sparsely populated semi-desert state whose account books have never balanced. When Obasanjo came in 1999, many Nigerians, including me, were optimistic. You asked about Fashola. He also filled some people with optimism and proved the naysayers wrong in the early part of his time at Lagos House. Look how he has turned out – the sort of leader that lacks problem solving skills and so buries his head in the sand in the belief that once you deploy mobile policemen with AK-47s and whips and armoured tanks to coerce the people to obey your latest edict, you have sorted things out. That is what we always get whenever we dare to hope – disappointment.

Going further, most Nigerians will agree that the governorship elections held in Edo and Ondo states were free and fair – by “Nigerian standards”. Do these fill me with hope? Well, we have to scratch above the surface. It is a fact that the president made a heavy deployment of policemen, SSS and soldiers to nearly every street in these states during the elections. In other words, there was no snatching of ballot boxes because security agents were heavily deployed and instructed not to allow ballot box snatching, not because our politicians have decided to let us enjoy our rights to choose our rulers. So what happens in a general election since we don’t have enough security agents to deploy in 36 states in this manner? You see why it can be hard to find a strong basis for hope?

Look, again, at corruption. It’s not uniquely Nigerian. In Indonesia, Pakistan, Mexico and countless other countries, including even first world South Korea, it happens that when a minister gives someone a contract, the contractor would give him a kickback of 10%. That is not what happens in Nigeria. Here, you can award a contract and collect 100%, that is, simply put the money in your pocket and let the grass grow on site. Alternatively, you can award a contract for N10 million and get the contractor to sign for N80 million. And then (this happens in the LGs) you can have someone hint the contractor that he has no business going to site because “we use that road to eat every year”.

Where is the hope then? We have a whole generation who have emigrated to the West. Those who have difficulties getting to the West have gone to the East. The rest have gone to neighbouring countries – anything just to be far from Nigeria! And it’s our best brains mostly affected.

Our problems are not too hard to solve such that they are unsolvable – all you need is some radical thinking and a preparedness to rock the boat. This point must be made. On health for instance, a thinking president would probably call the NMA, the NRD and the others and say, “look, our people are traveling to die in Mumbai and London and Berlin. What do we do? Tell us what we need and we will build a few of these good hospitals in Nigeria and fly in the specialists to carry out procedures so our people can study things and domesticate the expertise”. On the state of our security he would possibly ask states to recruit their own police forces, dissolve the present federal police and build a new one modelled after the American FBI – for good measure I would bring in a foreigner or foreigners to run it at start-up. (Britain, the country where the industrial revolution started, the country that gave birth to the USA, the home of Cambridge and Oxford universities, home of London “the world’s capital”, just hired a foreigner to run its central bank). On corruption he would call the Body of SANs, the NBA and others and bark at them that enough is enough. How do we reform our laws to ensure judges aren’t able to grant these injunctions and criminal trials can really go on the way they do in countries inhabited by civilised people? He would call his cabinet and other appointees and tell them enough is enough – there is an interagency monitoring of movement of money and anyone found stealing will lose his job first and face the courts next. Corruption is not really a monster you can’t tackle. Let the pension systems work, let there be some form of social security, and let thieves go to jail like Ibori and Blagoyevitch and corruption will go down.

Getting the right leader – that is the challenge. I am not saying that a good leader will never emerge in Nigeria – that would not be a reasonable conclusion. That one will emerge in the foreseeable future, my lifetime, is what nothing points to. Gut feeling that it can happen? I have no issues with that. But no hard evidence seriously points to it.

MyJoe, good posts. All I'll add is that that good leader will never emerge at all if way is not made for him. As far as I'm concerned, Nigeria may not become a first world country in my lifetime, but by the time my own time is done, I should have have helped bring her near to being one at least.

That's what I demand from Nigerians: reasonableness. I'm not asking for more than true appraisals and honest effort. If I can't raise such a leader in my time, I'll at least bring the nation one step (if not more) closer to acquiring one.

All you have said agrees with my submission that Nigeria can change and will too if we give her half a chance. And we are. I'm a brain (rate me as you please) and I'm not baling on Nigeria. I'm making her my problem.