Logicboy03:
Farming is capital intensive.
You dont just start farming, you need capital to get land and tools and seeds/animals.


Government has to provide incentives in such industries.

That is if you intend to industrialize and make a business out of it. Farming to feed yourself and your family does not require a fortune as demonstrated by our fore-fathers.

Now, you claim that people shouldnt sit on their behind. How can they start farming when there is unemployment and they are poverty? Where does the money come from to start an agricultural business. God will provide,eh?


Furthermore, many Nigerians have left the honorable route due to lack of a conducive environment into yahoo-yahoo and oil bunkering.


Now, a christian like you will call them theives without looking at the big picture.

Will you steal to feed your starving child when you are broke? Thou shall not steal?

Take a step back. I will not have a child to begin with if I don't have the means to feed & care for it. Truth in fact - the vast majority of thieves & criminals are NOT stealing to "eat" or "feed their hungry children" - they do so because they want other peoples stuff without working hard for it.

JeSoul:
I don't contend that a neutral position would be 'best'. My point is the govt are simply people like you & me. Seperation of "church" & "state" can never be 'acheived' as long human beings are involved.

A neutral position is the best option we have available. If a better system of government comes up we will accept it. Do you see how illogical you are? You know that secularism is a better option than any religious alternative we have but you are fighting tooth and nail against it just because your faith keeps telling you to.

Face it, secularism is the best we can get for now. (best is different from perfect like the theocracists will tell you that a system by god is perfect)

JeSoul:
But we would find you guys 'killing' yourselves over soccer & queen. Different flavas for different countries.

Yes, Americans dont kill themselves or American football? Lol.

Who cares about the queen really?

JeSoul:
Please evidence & statistics, not emotional imaginations. I have never heard of anyone discriminated against based on their atheism - are you confusing it with naija?

Wow, how could you be ignorant about this? I dont mean to be insulting but I am just surprised. There are work place discrimination against atheists and evn in the public space.

Here is your evidence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#United_States
http://www.atheistrev.com/2009/11/atheists-face-discrimination-in-us.html

JeSoul:
Again many of these countries you've listed are notorious for racism, fascism and other isms... there is no utopian paradise anywhere. Some countries excel at one thing more than others. If you want to consider the entire package of socio-economic-politic-religious dynamics you'd be hard pressed to come up countries other than US, Canada, UK and a few other places. Or else why is everyone in the world flocking to those countries and not Slovenia, Qatar or Iceland on your index? quality of life is based on much more than just a "peace-index" rating.

America is the home of racism. What happened to the real Americans? (Native indians)? Did you know that America was segregating blacks while figthing the racist Nazis.


Facism is dead. Dont start using tea party rhetoric here.


Utopia is impossible. The only people that claim utopia are your people. The theocracist that claim that a perfect system under god is possible

JeSoul: That is if you intend to industrialize and make a business out of it. Farming to feed yourself and your family does not require a fortune as demonstrated by our fore-fathers.

Take a step back. I will not have a child to begin with if I don't have the means to feed & care for it. Truth in fact - the vast majority of thieves & criminals are NOT stealing to "eat" or "feed their hungry children" - they do so because they want other peoples stuff without working hard for it.

1) Our forefathers lived in a communal setting in the forest. Land was abundant. Answer the question. Where would a recent with no money and no job get money to start farnming?

2) Do you think you are special or something? What about women who lost their husbands to armed robbers and then their house to male relatives and their job to depression?

How would they feed their children?


What about farmers who lost their lands to corrupt govt and damages from oil companies in delta? Where do they get money to get another farm when govt doesn t give compensation?


God will provide?

Everyone has choices.
There are plenty of ways to make a living, to get 3 meals for family. Most of those ways are hard, and require patience and perseverance.
What we are saying is that in Nigeria, anything that requires plenty of hard work,patience and perseverance is seem by the entire society as suffering and therefore dishonourable.

Everyone is looking for the easy path. Things that used to be seen as dishonourable during our youth are today seen as the most honourable.
Sometime ago, one of my cousins was telling me a story of how someone we both know swindled another for N10m. What was interesting and very shocking to me was that he was promoting the thief as the hero and the victim as the id.i.ot. I had nightmares that day because this was coming from someone I had considered decent.

The people are the government. How many times has the Nigerian government made serious efforts in money and resources to rid the ports of corruption?
Talking about light,what is the mystery about electric power?. It was invented more than 100yrs ago, so what is the problem? I will tell you, the corrupt populace.
Who sabotages the power sector? is it the government?
Is is the private sector generator mafia that sabotage the governments efforts at power production and distribution.

Ihedinobi:



The Nigerian is a ravenously hungry man who's sitting and watching a feast he's been told is his disappearing into the bellies of the people who say it's his and who assure him they mean to feed him with it. The (un)funny thing is these same people were his comrades right the minute before agitating with him for control of the feast so that they don't starve to death. He's seen it so many times that he's just gone cynical. He no longer believes or trusts anyone to care about him. So he takes care of himself.

Obi steals all he can because he feels entitled to it and if he doesn't try to get it somehow, he might end up out in the cold with no warm clothes, not merely cos he's greedy. That's Nigerian reality.

Of everything you have said this is what I would call photshopping the truth.
The Nigerian is not ravenously hungry, that model of a happy society where there is food for all and life is good for all just simply does not exist.
Do we have a poor economy? Yes. Take a honest look and tell me out of every 10 people at least 9 can afford to have a cell phone. Not just owning one but spending a considerable amount of money on it monthly. There are people who find it difficult to eat that's true but do not make that to be the average Nigerian, that is simply cropping the truth.

"Cut your cloth according to your size, remember war against indiscipline" was a popular track on one of the very funny episodes of Jagua in those days. The average Nigerian is lacks discipline and is not content with what they have, they have imbibed in them the success model of get rich or die trying (no thanks to capitalism). I might not have a Private Jet in my life, I really don't care. I might not afford a phantom, I really don't care, food, clothes, water a roof over the head of my family a successful career and giving my kids the best education [-THAT I CAN AFFORD] in the world is what success is to me,not how much I leave behind. The mindset of the average artisan is that one day he will hammer and become a superstar.

GREED GREED GREED and no dignity, that is the problem. I have talked about falling tankers, willing to risk your life like that just to get a scoop of petrol that you would sell and make meager profit from is not because of ravenous hunger, its simply greed. Selling your votes for a bag of rice is downright stupidity and a lack of self worth, just recently these yeye traffic people jumped into my car after they said I had moved when I was not suppose to move. The short guy who was stopping traffic from the front of a very large truck knew that I did not see him and his pleas fell on deaf ears from his female "supervisor" and another man who was already calling a tow truck just because my car was less than 2ft in front of the line. I weighed everything and had a very very serious appointment that day, I parted with some good money because the hassle was just not worth my time. Before I did the main guy controlling the traffic was pissed and had dropped, the other guy saw my innocence and said they should leave but the madam insisted so I gave her the money and told her to at least feed her kids and that we would meet again. That is not as a result of being ravenously hungry, it is greed, a lack of self worth and a lack of discipline, add wickedness for a touch of good measure.

The poor leech on the poor, a taxi driver once told me during scarcity of petrol that this was the time to make big money. Transport fare shoot up from 50 naira to 150. The line is if petrol increases by 30 naira per litre then they have to increase their fares by 30 naira as well, which is totally wrong. The worst part of all this is that when petrol does come down or is no longer scarce they refuse to go back to the original price. Now the meat seller he is carrying because 30 naira was added would add 30 naira to all pieces of meat they would sell that day, greed or ravenous hunger? The buka woman who buys the meat would add 60 naira to her food because she paid 30 extra for meat and 30 extra for transport, all plates would have that amount added, ravenous hunger or greed?
You want us to go to ASUU, they want more everytime they want this and they want that. The strength and vigor with which they fight the federal government if they used that to fight lecturers that sleep with female students, ask for handouts etc would the system not be better?

The list is endless!

Logicboy03:

A neutral position is the best option we have available. If a better system of government comes up we will accept it. Do you see how illogical you are? You know that secularism is a better option than any religious alternative we have but you are fighting tooth and nail against it just because your faith keeps telling you to.

Lol. If you say so. I'm simply trying show you that there is no such thing as truely "neutral".

Yes, Americans dont kill themselves or American football? Lol.

Who cares about the queen really?

Ah! poor queen, can't you be arrested for this blasphemy so?

Wow, how could you be ignorant about this? I dont mean to be insulting but I am just surprised. There are work place discrimination against atheists and evn in the public space.

Here is your evidence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#United_States
http://www.atheistrev.com/2009/11/atheists-face-discrimination-in-us.html

Oga, a link on wikipedia that discusses certain cases in mostly govt positions (no stats by the way) and an athiest website does not count as evidence...furthermore your own link on wiki even says this: However, other atheists reject these comparisons, arguing that while atheists may face disapproval they have not faced significant oppression or discrimination.

In all the places I've worked no one could care less about your religion or color of underwear.

America is the home of racism. What happened to the real Americans? (Native indians)? Did you know that America was segregating blacks while figthing the racist Nazis.


Facism is dead. Dont start using tea party rhetoric here.


Utopia is impossible. The only people that claim utopia are your people. The theocracist that claim that a perfect system under god is possible

Lol...this is you. We're talking about one thing and you throw in native american genocide, slavery into the mix. If the US is the "home" of racism according to you so be it.

plaetton: Everyone has choices.
There are plenty of ways to make a living, to get 3 meals for family. Most of those ways are hard, and require patience and perseverance.
What we are saying is that in Nigeria, anything that requires plenty of hard work,patience and perseverance is seem by the entire society as suffering and therefore dishonourable.

Everyone is looking for the easy path. Things that used to be seen as dishonourable during our youth are today seen as the most honourable.
Sometime ago, one of my cousins was telling me a story of how someone we both know swindled another for N10m. What was interesting and very shocking to me was that he was promoting the thief as the hero and the victim as the idiot. I had nightmares that day because this was coming from someone I had considered decent.

The people are the government. How many times has the Nigerian government made serious efforts in money and resources to rid the ports of corruption?
Talking about light,what is the mystery about electric power?. It was invented more than 100yrs ago, so what is the problem? I will tell you, the corrupt populace.
Who sabotages the power sector? is it the government?
Is is the private sector generator mafia that sabotage the governments efforts at power production and distribution.

You must be joking.


Who is more powerful, the government or the private individual? When the government is in bed with the corrupt companies that sabotage our electricity to sell generators, what do you expect?


The blame rests on the government. There is no opportunity for the poor. If you want to start a serious business, you need a generator. How muchg pepper selling or cray fish selling will get you a generator?

As a business major, Nigeria does not have a conducive environment for middle class entreprenuers. I am rich and so I can cover the huge capital needed for a business. The average Nigerian can not. The averga Nigerian is left to either steal or sell pepper or look for a job in a country rampant with unemployment.

Chrisbenogor:
Of everything you have said this is what I would call photshopping the truth.
The Nigerian is not ravenously hungry, that model of a happy society where there is food for all and life is good for all just simply does not exist.
Do we have a poor economy? Yes. Take a honest look and tell me out of every 10 people at least 9 can afford to have a cell phone. Not just owning one but spending a considerable amount of money on it monthly. There are people who find it difficult to eat that's true but do not make that to be the average Nigerian, that is simply cropping the truth.

"Cut your cloth according to your size, remember war against indiscipline" was a popular track on one of the very funny episodes of Jagua in those days. The average Nigerian is lacks discipline and is not content with what they have, they have imbibed in them the success model of get rich or die trying (no thanks to capitalism). I might not have a Private Jet in my life, I really don't care. I might not afford a phantom, I really don't care, food, clothes, water a roof over the head of my family a successful career and giving my kids the best education [-THAT I CAN AFFORD] in the world is what success is to me,not how much I leave behind. The mindset of the average artisan is that one day he will hammer and become a superstar.

GREED GREED GREED and no dignity, that is the problem. I have talked about falling tankers, willing to risk your life like that just to get a scoop of petrol that you would sell and make meager profit from is not because of ravenous hunger, its simply greed. Selling your votes for a bag of rice is downright stupidity and a lack of self worth, just recently these yeye traffic people jumped into my car after they said I had moved when I was not suppose to move. The short guy who was stopping traffic from the front of a very large truck knew that I did not see him and his pleas fell on deaf ears from his female "supervisor" and another man who was already calling a tow truck just because my car was less than 2ft in front of the line. I weighed everything and had a very very serious appointment that day, I parted with some good money because the hassle was just not worth my time. Before I did the main guy controlling the traffic was pissed and had dropped, the other guy saw my innocence and said they should leave but the madam insisted so I gave her the money and told her to at least feed her kids and that we would meet again. That is not as a result of being ravenously hungry, it is greed, a lack of self worth and a lack of discipline, add wickedness for a touch of good measure.

The poor leech on the poor, a taxi driver once told me during scarcity of petrol that this was the time to make big money. Transport fare shoot up from 50 naira to 150. The line is if petrol increases by 30 naira per litre then they have to increase their fares by 30 naira as well, which is totally wrong. The worst part of all this is that when petrol does come down or is no longer scarce they refuse to go back to the original price. Now the meat seller he is carrying because 30 naira was added would add 30 naira to all pieces of meat they would sell that day, greed or ravenous hunger? The buka woman who buys the meat would add 60 naira to her food because she paid 30 extra for meat and 30 extra for transport, all plates would have that amount added, ravenous hunger or greed?
You want us to go to ASUU, they want more everytime they want this and they want that. The strength and vigor with which they fight the federal government if they used that to fight lecturers that sleep with female students, ask for handouts etc would the system not be better?

The list is endless!

If 70% of Nigerians are poor, how can you chalk it up to greed?


Are you serious? If some of these people dont go into shady businesses, they will suffer very badly.


How can you even believe that the avergae Nigerian blows a lot of money every month?

plaetton:


Logicboy03, lets assume for the sake of this discussion that we suddenly get a committed leader who takes his time to repair and in some cases, demolish all the disfunctional parts of our social, political and economic system. This job, in reality would take about 20yrs of committed and sustained effort on the part of the leader, his appointees, and most importantly, the entire populace.
This would mean that the real gains of these efforts would not be fully manifest in least 20yrs.
Now, from our experience, what do you think would be the attitudes of the people after , lets say, 4yrs of sincere efforts(such as closing all the loopholes of fraud ,embezzlement and corruption,) but no visible benefits?.

Our recent experience shows that the people, the poor, the elites, the media, all would gang up and boo, insult, calumnise and resist this leader for not delivering the goods fast enough.
They would clamour for something new and someone new, and then, its deja vu all over again.

You would have a better chance of getting a triangle with 200 degrees than what you have just said. If you want to get a really good idea of what politics in Nigeria is like, watch BBC's law and disorder and see that dude called Oluomo the guy that apparently controls the oshodi area of NURTW. Those guys control a huge number of youths who would actually come out to vote, failure to "appease" these guys one way or the other would spell political headache for an intending politician coming from that area. Desist yourself from the thought that Nigerian politics is clean, its is a very dirty and a very complicated game in Nigeria. As we speak I know someone who has been waiting for a particular political post since 2003, he has been loyal. Fought hard and he is waiting for his turn come 2015, you will tell that good president to tell him that he should wait

Logicboy03:



If 70% of Nigerians are poor, how can you chalk it up to greed?


Are you serious? If some of these people dont go into shady businesses, they will suffer very badly.


How can you even believe that the avergae Nigerian blows a lot of money every month?

Not a lot of money, I said enough to get by. I did not say blow I am saying enough to eat and survive.

Chrisbenogor:
Of everything you have said this is what I would call photshopping the truth.
The Nigerian is not ravenously hungry, that model of a happy society where there is food for all and life is good for all just simply does not exist.
Do we have a poor economy? Yes. Take a honest look and tell me out of every 10 people at least 9 can afford to have a cell phone. Not just owning one but spending a considerable amount of money on it monthly. There are people who find it difficult to eat that's true but do not make that to be the average Nigerian, that is simply cropping the truth.

"Cut your cloth according to your size, remember war against indiscipline" was a popular track on one of the very funny episodes of Jagua in those days. The average Nigerian is lacks discipline and is not content with what they have, they have imbibed in them the success model of get rich or die trying (no thanks to capitalism). I might not have a Private Jet in my life, I really don't care. I might not afford a phantom, I really don't care, food, clothes, water a roof over the head of my family a successful career and giving my kids the best education [-THAT I CAN AFFORD] in the world is what success is to me,not how much I leave behind. The mindset of the average artisan is that one day he will hammer and become a superstar.

GREED GREED GREED and no dignity, that is the problem. I have talked about falling tankers, willing to risk your life like that just to get a scoop of petrol that you would sell and make meager profit from is not because of ravenous hunger, its simply greed. Selling your votes for a bag of rice is downright stupidity and a lack of self worth, just recently these yeye traffic people jumped into my car after they said I had moved when I was not suppose to move. The short guy who was stopping traffic from the front of a very large truck knew that I did not see him and his pleas fell on deaf ears from his female "supervisor" and another man who was already calling a tow truck just because my car was less than 2ft in front of the line. I weighed everything and had a very very serious appointment that day, I parted with some good money because the hassle was just not worth my time. Before I did the main guy controlling the traffic was pissed and had dropped, the other guy saw my innocence and said they should leave but the madam insisted so I gave her the money and told her to at least feed her kids and that we would meet again. That is not as a result of being ravenously hungry, it is greed, a lack of self worth and a lack of discipline, add wickedness for a touch of good measure.

The poor leech on the poor, a taxi driver once told me during scarcity of petrol that this was the time to make big money. Transport fare shoot up from 50 naira to 150. The line is if petrol increases by 30 naira per litre then they have to increase their fares by 30 naira as well, which is totally wrong. The worst part of all this is that when petrol does come down or is no longer scarce they refuse to go back to the original price. Now the meat seller he is carrying because 30 naira was added would add 30 naira to all pieces of meat they would sell that day, greed or ravenous hunger? The buka woman who buys the meat would add 60 naira to her food because she paid 30 extra for meat and 30 extra for transport, all plates would have that amount added, ravenous hunger or greed?
You want us to go to ASUU, they want more everytime they want this and they want that. The strength and vigor with which they fight the federal government if they used that to fight lecturers that sleep with female students, ask for handouts etc would the system not be better?

The list is endless!

"Cut your coat according to your size".
You have no idea how times I have been insulted for telling people that.
Many Nigerians never want to hear that.
They have been told by their pentecostal churches that Jesus has entitled them to all the bounties of the earth, and that all they have to do is to reach out and grab it, even if by force, albeit, with supporting quotes from the bible.

Whenever I mention that one should cut their coats according their size , the response I alwys get is, "my coats are already undersized, so says my pastor".

Chrisbenogor:
Of everything you have said this is what I would call photshopping the truth.
The Nigerian is not ravenously hungry, that model of a happy society where there is food for all and life is good for all just simply does not exist.
Do we have a poor economy? Yes. Take a honest look and tell me out of every 10 people at least 9 can afford to have a cell phone. Not just owning one but spending a considerable amount of money on it monthly. There are people who find it difficult to eat that's true but do not make that to be the average Nigerian, that is simply cropping the truth.

"Cut your cloth according to your size, remember war against indiscipline" was a popular track on one of the very funny episodes of Jagua in those days. The average Nigerian is lacks discipline and is not content with what they have, they have imbibed in them the success model of get rich or die trying (no thanks to capitalism). I might not have a Private Jet in my life, I really don't care. I might not afford a phantom, I really don't care, food, clothes, water a roof over the head of my family a successful career and giving my kids the best education [-THAT I CAN AFFORD] in the world is what success is to me,not how much I leave behind. The mindset of the average artisan is that one day he will hammer and become a superstar.

GREED GREED GREED and no dignity, that is the problem. I have talked about falling tankers, willing to risk your life like that just to get a scoop of petrol that you would sell and make meager profit from is not because of ravenous hunger, its simply greed. Selling your votes for a bag of rice is downright stupidity and a lack of self worth, just recently these yeye traffic people jumped into my car after they said I had moved when I was not suppose to move. The short guy who was stopping traffic from the front of a very large truck knew that I did not see him and his pleas fell on deaf ears from his female "supervisor" and another man who was already calling a tow truck just because my car was less than 2ft in front of the line. I weighed everything and had a very very serious appointment that day, I parted with some good money because the hassle was just not worth my time. Before I did the main guy controlling the traffic was pissed and had dropped, the other guy saw my innocence and said they should leave but the madam insisted so I gave her the money and told her to at least feed her kids and that we would meet again. That is not as a result of being ravenously hungry, it is greed, a lack of self worth and a lack of discipline, add wickedness for a touch of good measure.

The poor leech on the poor, a taxi driver once told me during scarcity of petrol that this was the time to make big money. Transport fare shoot up from 50 naira to 150. The line is if petrol increases by 30 naira per litre then they have to increase their fares by 30 naira as well, which is totally wrong. The worst part of all this is that when petrol does come down or is no longer scarce they refuse to go back to the original price. Now the meat seller he is carrying because 30 naira was added would add 30 naira to all pieces of meat they would sell that day, greed or ravenous hunger? The buka woman who buys the meat would add 60 naira to her food because she paid 30 extra for meat and 30 extra for transport, all plates would have that amount added, ravenous hunger or greed?
You want us to go to ASUU, they want more everytime they want this and they want that. The strength and vigor with which they fight the federal government if they used that to fight lecturers that sleep with female students, ask for handouts etc would the system not be better?

The list is endless!

Exactly. Success is measured in cars & property, not quality of character & the family unit - which explains why we keep on churning out generation after generation of increasingly worse characters. You don talk am finish. This your thesis ehn...if only it can reach the right audience.

---

plaetton:

"Cut your coat according to your size".
You have no idea how times I have been insulted for telling people that.
Many Nigerians never want to hear that.
They have been told by their pentecostal churches that Jesus has entitled them to all the bounties of the earth, and that all they have to do is to reach out and grab it, even if by force, albeit, with supporting quotes from the bible.

Whenever I mention that one should cut their coats according their size , the response I alwys get is, "my coats are already undersized, so says my pastor".

LOL that is FUNNY! lol...my coats are already undersized...lol. that's a good line . Nigerians ehn, we are talented lol.

JeSoul: Lol. If you say so. I'm simply trying show you that there is no such thing as truely "neutral".

Ah! poor queen, can't you be arrested for this blasphemy so?



Oga, a link on wikipedia that discusses certain cases in mostly govt positions (no stats by the way) and an athiest website does not count as evidence...furthermore your own link on wiki even says this: However, other atheists reject these comparisons, arguing that while atheists may face disapproval they have not faced significant oppression or discrimination.

In all the places I've worked no one could care less about your religion or color of underwear.

Lol...this is you. We're talking about one thing and you throw in native american genocide, slavery into the mix. If the US is the "home" of racism according to you so be it.

I'm going to focus on the issue of atheist discrimination in America. This one truly pains me for you to live in such denial. either you are wicked or just trolling or maybe ignorant of the fact.

Lets start with the wikipedia link;
Isnt it telling f your disingenuity that you focused on two sentences in the whole write up to negate the differing opinion in the rest of the paragraph? Just because there are atheists like Muskeeto that refuse to tell the full truth to please religionists doesnt mean that atheists are not discriminated against.


Next, to the claims of the atheist website

a) Workplace discrinmiantion;
The military is one great examople where atheists are dicriminated against. The atheist website had a link which reports this. Promotions, recommendations and firings have been unfair to many atheists military officers
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/us/26atheist.html?pagewanted=all
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-07-08/us/atheist.soldier_1_tours-discrimination-bible?_s=PM:US




b)In politics and life

I dont want to bore you with too many links but watch this video and tell me if America is not home to a lot of atheist discrimination

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9Ng9--ubZc




What about using religion for child custody? That is mentioned both in the wikipedia article and the atheis websitie?

plaetton:


Logicboy03, lets assume for the sake of this discussion that we suddenly get a committed leader who takes his time to repair and in some cases, demolish all the disfunctional parts of our social, political and economic system. This job, in reality would take about 20yrs of committed and sustained effort on the part of the leader, his appointees, and most importantly, the entire populace.
This would mean that the real gains of these efforts would not be fully manifest in least 20yrs.
Now, from our experience, what do you think would be the attitudes of the people after , lets say, 4yrs of sincere efforts(such as closing all the loopholes of fraud ,embezzlement and corruption,) but no visible benefits?.

Our recent experience shows that the people, the poor, the elites, the media, all would gang up and boo, insult, calumnise and resist this leader for not delivering the goods fast enough.
They would clamour for something new and someone new, and then, its deja vu all over again.

Fashola that has done very little has gotten lots of praise.

Think before you insult Nigerians.

^Logicboy holster your weapon...

You can present article after article of single cases and lawsuits - the simple point is this: atheism discrimination is real BUT is NOT widespread or a 'problem' in the US. Unless you have some statistics of surveys that states the contrary. Discrimination based on religion, race, status, disability etc etc all exist.

JeSoul: ^Logicboy holster your weapon...

You can present article after article of single cases and lawsuits - the simple point is this: atheism discrimination is real BUT is NOT widespread or a 'problem' in the US. Unless you have some statistics of surveys that states the contrary. Discrimination based on religion, race, status, disability etc etc all exist.

Watch the video.

The video has a telling statistic in the beginning

JeSoul: ^Logicboy holster your weapon...

You can present article after article of single cases and lawsuits - the simple point is this: atheism discrimination is real BUT is NOT widespread or a 'problem' in the US. Unless you have some statistics of surveys that states the contrary. Discrimination based on religion, race, status, disability etc etc all exist.

Is it single cases in the military? Or widespread cases?


Furthermore, what happens in politcs?

@plaetton, chris, jesoul and other realists:
Is it just a matter of time? Do you think 'Nigeria' will survive beyond 2015, if it gets to that point intact?
Do you think the current system can continue to sustain itself?
Would it continue to be a case of different players, same game?

musKeeto: @plaetton, chris, jesoul and other realists:
Is it just a matter of time? Do you think 'Nigeria' will survive beyond 2015, if it gets to that point intact?
Do you think the current system can continue to sustain itself?
Would it continue to be a case of different players, same game?

I dont see realists here.

What I see is people being part of the problem and trying to soleve the problem at the same time.


How can someone believe that Nigerians are greedier than Europeans or Americans and call himself a humanist?


Is it in their nature or a result of living in a harsh country where the rich get everything and the poor nothing?


Thank the spaghetti monster that I have justified why I avoided this thread. ost people here are part of the problem and they dont even see it. They have no hope in the goodness of Nigerians.

Logicboy03:


Fashola that has done very little has gotten lots of praise.

Think before you insult Nigerians.

Yes indeed.
His sincerity is clear to everyone. He has been a shinning light in a very dark alley.
But he has had to fight many battles and displace so many in order to do the right thing.
Fashiola gives us hope by setting a standard that all governor should aspire to.

There is nothing like insulting Nigerians. We know ourselves very well.

Even in the Uk, where you live, everyone has choices to seek and work hard for a living. What do we get? the same Nigerians who are not content with just a decent living, who want to live large and outshine even the oyinbo by committing all sorts of crimes that disfigure the atmosphere of trust that is part of British culture.
Nigerian drug and financial fraud criminals are over-represented in UK jails,European, Middleastern, South American,Asian and North American jails.
Could you attribute this fact to them not being able to get three square meals in a day?

plaetton:

Yes indeed.
His sincerity is clear to everyone. He has been a shinning light in a very dark alley.
But he has had to fight many battles and displace so many in order to do the right thing.
Fashiola gives us hope by setting a standard that all governor should aspire to.

There is nothing like insulting Nigerians. We know ourselves very well.

Even in the Uk, where you live, everyone has choices to seek and work hard for a living. What do we get? the same Nigerians who are not content with just a decent living, who want to live large and outshine even the oyinbo by committing all sorts of crimes that disfigure the atmosphere of trust that is part of British culture.
Nigerian drug and financial fraud criminals are over-represented in UK jails,European, Middleastern, South American,Asian and North American jails.
Could you attribute this fact to them not being able to get three square meals in a day?

Look, I am not denying the "I better pass you" flashy culture that exists within the Nigerian society. However, many nigerians are left with either no choice or ignorance to do these things. There are some that are educated but will still carry on the culture.


Education and information are the keys. If our politicians and pastors started living humbly and campaining against such excesses and stealing of money, it will reduce.




#Champagne popping at governors bar

Logicboy03:



I dont see realists here.

What I see is people being part of the problem and trying to soleve the problem at the same time.


How can someone believe that Nigerians are greedier than Europeans or Americans and call himself a humanist?


Is it in their nature or a result of living in a harsh country where the rich get everything and the poor nothing?


Thank the spaghetti monster that I have justified why I avoided this thread. ost people here are part of the problem and they dont even see it. They have no hope in the goodness of Nigerians.

Americans and Europeans are greedy for their nations. They steal and loot for welfare and future of their nations. a Nigerian would steal from his nation, set his nation on fire, and then run to Europe and America.
All the colonialist governors did not enrich themselves.
They looted for Queen and country.

plaetton:

Americans and Europeans are greedy for their nations. They steal and loot for welfare and future of their nations. a Nigerian would steal from his nation, set his nation on fire, and then run to Europe and America.
All the colonialist governors did not enrich themselves.
They looted for Queen and country.

Now thats what I'm talking about. We all have greed in us. Some are just greedy for the wrong things.



Atheists will always get to an agreement

Logicboy03:


Now thats what I'm talking about. We all have greed in us. Some are just greedy for the wrong things.



Atheists will always get to an agreement

On mobile. Will 'reply' you once I'm on a pc...

musKeeto: @plaetton, chris, jesoul and other realists:
Is it just a matter of time? Do you think 'Nigeria' will survive beyond 2015, if it gets to that point intact?
Do you think the current system can continue to sustain itself?
Would it continue to be a case of different players, same game?

Revolution or breakup?
That much-contemplated eventuality is loooooooong overdue, but the nation has remained resilient.
This is so for many simple reasons.
You see, just like what Jesoul and myself have been saying, there is no clear distinction between the good and the bad, the exploited and the exploiters. We just have vicious cycle, no, whirlwind where everyone is either exploiting or trying to exploit everyone else. Everyone is a potential enemy depending on what you have and what I dont have.

How could a revolution occur where muslims sees the christian as a potential enemy, the yoruba, Igbo and hausa see each other as potential enemies?.
Where Egba Yorubas see Ijebu yorubas as potential enemies, where Orons, Annangs and Ibibios see themselves as potential enemies, where Wawas see Abakilikis as potential enemies, where evangelicals see Catholics and white garment church goers as potential enemies? and the list goes on.

Nigeria is very very complicated.
A revolution is not possible in Nigeria.
What I fear is the Rwandan type of blind senseless fury against anyone different, and the Somalian type of fractionalisation , militantism, warlords and endless lawlessness.
The signs are already there.

Logicboy03:


Now thats what I'm talking about. We all have greed in us. Some are just greedy for the wrong things.



Atheists will always get to an agreement

JeSoul: Unless my comphrehension is suddenly failing me... aren't these two statements contradictory?

-It is because we're Christians that we are realists
-Realism isn't something we can carry on in addition to our faith

"can carry on in addition to our faith" renders the thing being carried on separate from the thing to which it is added. One way to put my point is: our faith is realism itself. Realism is not an addition to it.

In either case, I didn't imply having a realistic approach is incompatible with faith - infact I was trying to say that was exactly my stance.

I hope my response above clears this up. I do not agree that it is even an issue of compatibility. Being a Christian is the exact same as being truly realistic.

You're asking a christian if "God is a factor worth considering" (in whatever situation)?

I was addressing the issue of emotional optimism by pointing that out. I think it is a false realism to consider God an excuse for unfounded hope and therefore not factor Him in correctly.

I wish I could deal with that more appreciatively, but I guess I can only say that if God is factored in as God, not a genie, celestial slot machine, a magician or an excuse for indolence, the equation will become truly realistic.

You would be hard-pressed to prove this point my dear. Is there a chance anything can happen? of course. The probability of that is what would render your hope/optimism realistic or not - and if you're truly a realist you must admit nigeria's situation is dire.

I live in one of the most backward states in Nigeria in a city whose glory is an old story. About it, someone once said to me that it is foolish to ask after its library since its people don't read. Dire? I am not the one who wouldn't admit that. Is the situation desperate? Lordy, but yes, of course it is. But hopeless? Absolutely not.

My hope is built on reality not on smoke dreams. I have no problems supplying proof.

You seem to be echoing my points without realizing it.

I doubt it.

I maintained naija's case is not one of an elite class pushing around the lower class - but rather a vicious cycle where all are perpetuating evil towards each other.

And my point is that this situation which you have described and I hold to be true as well does not exist in a vacuum. Comprehension of that is key to fixing it.

I don't disagree nigeria has unique complexities - heck which country on earth doesn't have its own unique challenges? Perhaps nigerian's seperate themselves on tribe - someone mentioned earlier if human being could seperate themselves by hair color they would.

Why don't you pick one country with complexities you consider comparable to Nigeria's and let's compare them. I think that that's the best way to explain what I'm saying.

So because it echoes of something a westerner might say it should be dismissed?

I'm sure I didn't say that. My point is that such viewpoints are usually colored by naivety.

Now you miss the point. Every country from 1st world to 3rd world will have good & bad areas - I'm trying to point you in the direction of the mentality of the people and how even though ghanians are our next door neighbors, they differ in thinking from us - to their credit.

I got you the first time. I am saying that your opinion might not have taken account of the fact that people are at their best with guests they want to impress. You need to look at a people through their own eyes to correctly appreciate their mentality.

Along with all the other posters on this thread who've echoed my sentiments?

While I do not argue that there is nothing in numbers, I do not place much faith in multitudes. The majority aren't always right. What's more, apart from musKeeto probably, the rest of you are essentially visitors to Nigeria. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

No one is saying Nigerians aren't "poor" or don't have it difficult. I asked you to rank it on a scale of 1-10 compared to other poor countries out there so we can put things in perspective.

Wanting to have the same well-off life mr Emeka has does NOT count as suffering. Chris eloquently said that nigerians are not satisfied to simply have their daily bread and he is right.

He is? You guys need to live just one full year in this country without lifelines to appreciate the Nigerian's survival mentality. I'm fresh out of school and I know intimately the daily struggle just to maintain daily existence.

I don't necessarily disagree with this part...I'm just trying to hit home the fact that this does not qualify as 'suffering' - it is coveting what someone else has though you have enough to live on.

Believe me, you guys are pretty ignorant what the deal is. Nigerians grab so that they don't die of starvation. They grab even more so that they make sure that come what may there's something to fall back on.

Don't think that I condone it. I merely understand it and intimately too.

About the bolded, you know many Nigerians who fit that bracket?

Ihedinobi:

Believe me, you guys are pretty ignorant what the deal is. Nigerians grab so that they don't die of starvation. They grab even more so that they make sure that come what may there's something to fall back on.

Don't think that I condone it. I merely understand it and intimately too.

About the bolded, you know many Nigerians who fit that bracket?

For once, I agree with you, disciple of Anony

Logicboy03:


For once, I agree with you, disciple of Anony

Why, I'm so honored, disciple of Wikis

Ihedinobi:

Why, I'm so honored, disciple of Wikis

Could you leave a comment here ;

https://www.nairaland.com/1091996/atheists-more-moral-than-christians

please

Ihedinobi:

Believe me, you guys are pretty ignorant what the deal is. Nigerians grab so that they don't die of starvation. They grab even more so that they make sure that come what may there's something to fall back on.

Don't think that I condone it. I merely understand it and intimately too.

About the bolded, you know many Nigerians who fit that bracket?

This is a wrong assertion. Nigerians 'grab/steal/loot' because it's become the norm AND people get away with it. The judiciary/courts are more or less non-existent. The larger the crime, the easier it is to escape,as long as you can access/rub the right backs.. Where crimes are not punished, man is forced to fend for himself leading to mass looting, and other indirect incidents ALUU..

Logicboy03:
I dont see realists here.

What I see is people being part of the problem and trying to soleve the problem at the same time.

Being a Nigerian means you are part of the problem, you have to accept that. Everyone's a part of the problem.

Logicboy03:
How can someone believe that Nigerians are greedier than Europeans or Americans and call himself a humanist?
Is it in their nature or a result of living in a harsh country where the rich get everything and the poor nothing?

It's in human nature to react to harsh conditions. The system in Nigeria is not the best. The 'government officials' were once normal citizens. This is the point I believe Plaetton made earlier. Most 'normal citizens' are just 'corrupt government officials'-in-waiting.