This post is titled "The Truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes"; so I will keep my scope of contributions within it. It's not a post to discuss whether Christianity is a Religion or not, so I give you that.

So let me just highlight few things from your response:

Quote from: pilgrim.1

Not all tithe-preaching pastors teach that.

Can you please give me 5 tithe-preaching pastors who doesn't quote "You are under a curse because you're robbing God of tithes" Mal 3:9 , one of the most quoted verses in churches today.

Quote from: pilgrim.1

Why make a law for others - are you now the personal assistant of the Lord?

So, now that I'm quoting from the same scriptures you quoted James 1:27 from, I'm now making law from others enh? And that has made me the PA of the Lord and you're not a PA from quoting from same Bible? How do you explain that?

Quote from: pilgrim.1

Is that the only chapter on tithing you find in the Bible? If not, WHY make a rule on that one chapter?

Ofcourse not, hence why I said "start" not use only Deut 14, start from Deut 14! Go all the way through the entire bible, touch base on Mal 3 and then move to Mat23:23, Heb 7; tell people if Christ death paid only for some Mosaic laws or all! Let people get the picture of how people served God before Christ's death and ressurection, and a picture of how people did after the old law or former regulations were nullified or set aside. Teach people of God if or not there was any account that early Christians pay tithe and why was there no account. Teach people about freewill givings and why they should. There are loads of topics to get through within this subject, and those that I've listed is by no means everything.

Quote from: pilgrim.1

Half-truths is a dangerous and very religious thing - and you're doing that very same thing you are asking others not to do. Well done.

Tell me, which half truth have I said now? Is the fact that Pastors create fears in Modern Christians about tithe half truth? Is the fact that most tithe paying Christians don't do it according to how it was written in the Bible half truth? Is the fact that Pastors don't use Deut or even Heb 7 to teach people on how to pay tithe half truth?

Well, I don't see my 3 candid points as half truth, and definately the fact that Christianity transits religion as a half truth either! A way of life is definitely different from a Religion in my own sight. Ofcourse not all Christians practices Christianity(eg. 75% of people in the UK call themselves Christians, and only 10% attend churches), not all those who practices Christianity are indeed true Christians.

I've said it before, let me say it again: It's not compulsory to be a Christian, it's not compulsory to go to Church, it's not compulsory to even believe in God, it's not compulsory to tithe, it's not compulsory to even accept the fact that tithing isn't compulsory. It's not compulsory to agree with me, or me to agree with you. It's not compulsory to be born again, a man can choose to live a life on earth that goes towards heaven, or hell! That's what makes our life a lot more interesting than non-humans, we've got choices! Those who want to pay Tithe should do so, and those who aren't inclined should be left alone in peace and not in fear of courses. This is my own take on this topic all along! But that doesn't mean the truth behind Tithe shouldn't be unveiled as per the topic title! There has been so much bible-quotings, and posts within this thread, so I will not waste anyones time, again.

My prayer is that we wouldn't miss the most import thing in our Christian journey , destination:Heaven! God help us! Amen!

Peace out!
Allta!

That's alright, ogajim. I share your concerns. And no, I didn't use the word 'accusation' as if you were accusing me. I just don't like to be preoccupied with the 'negative' more than the 'positive'. Cheers.

@Allta,

Let me know this: do you want to know or you want to argue? I don't want to waste my time on non-essentials; but if you cough for an argument, I can clear my desk and devote time enough for you. Which is it?

gentle men/ladies,

in my opinion every body is right in what ways and how they have made contributions in this matter.

however, i think what we refer to as religion today is a political system or systems of governance that has spanned through cultures and civilisations and has advanced to what we call democracy in modern times and America the chief evangelist because they are preaching democry through the world.

when you lead a people's resources are required.

what was tithing then for the Israelites to advance and fulfil what God has destined for them is modern day taxation.

tithing or whatever you give don't go to God. it is actually what we give to others in love that we have given to God.

it may not be in church to obey the universal law of giving.


stephen idahosa

Miss/Mrs Pilgrim.1

What will it benefit me to argue with you and loose my soul?

See, before I stumbled upon this thread last year, I use to pay my tithe under fear. I even sometimes take loans just to pay of my tithes because I don't want curses on my head like my pastors always tell me.

But the day I came across this post, I withdrew into my closet, took an entire week off from work, studied Tithing diligently and prayed fervently. I listened to so many teachings from several men of God, both home and away. I sought after knowledge, I always knew there must be something behind paying my tithe in fear and I spoke to people at Church about it.

I came across so many scriptures that suggested that Tithing isn't compulsory, also that Tithing isn't being done like it should in the 21st century. But as you know, so many pastors use only Mal 3 to enhance the fear of curse for not paying tithe. And I'm determined to share what I've learnt with those who were in same shoes I found my self long time ago. Ofcourse enjoy doing it and don't do it under fear should by all means carry on, but they need to understand the truth behind it. Let us not hide truths because you don't want to upset people, the truth can go a long way to liberate so many in bondage, I certainly am a living witness.

So, in a nutshell, I want to learn as much as I can under this topic, you can start by telling me where, when and why tithing came back after the death and resurrection of Christ.

Please don't see this as arguments, see it as a genuine questions because I honest don't know the answer, and want to do by all means.

Peace Out!
Allta

Allta:

Miss/Mrs Pilgrim.1

What will it benefit me to argue with you and loose my soul?

See, before I stumbled upon this thread last year, I use to pay my tithe under fear. I even sometimes take loans just to pay of my tithes because I don't want curses on my head like my pastors always tell me.

Okay, let me help you. You notice I've shared earlier about my disinclination to yap on about misrepresentations, which was why I disinclined an argument. If you're enquring to clarify or know about something, I would oblige - gladly. If not, the same - and it is entirely up to you what you want to do with your soul afterwards. Your case of tithing under fear was your own experience - it does not mean therefore that every tither was/is like you. There are still many who tithe without doing it out of fear.

Allta:

This post is titled "The Truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes"; so I will keep my scope of contributions within it. It's not a post to discuss whether Christianity is a Religion or not, so I give you that.

You should have kept within the topic and left out the 'religion' this-and-that in the first place.

Allta:
So let me just highlight few things from your response:

No worries.

Allta:

Can you please give me 5 tithe-preaching pastors who doesn't quote "You are under a curse because you're robbing God of tithes" Mal 3:9 , one of the most quoted verses in churches today.

I could give you more examples of whole churches if you want. Yet, Malachi 3:9 is not one of the 'most quoted' verses in churches today - that is what many people say without any statistical proof, because they have issues with tithes.

Allta:

So, now that I'm quoting from the same scriptures you quoted James 1:27 from, I'm now making law from others enh? And that has made me the PA of the Lord and you're not a PA from quoting from same Bible? How do you explain that?

Have you ever heard that you should leave others the freedom to do as they're led in their hearts? I have no problem with anyone quoting scripture - but to do so with a presumption that is unhealthy is what I zeroed in on.

Allta:

Ofcourse not, hence why I said "start" not use only Deut 14, start from Deut 14! Go all the way through the entire bible, touch base on Mal 3 and then move to Mat23:23, Heb 7; tell people if Christ death paid only for some Mosaic laws or all! Let people get the picture of how people served God before Christ's death and ressurection, and a picture of how people did after the old law or former regulations were nullified or set aside. Teach people of God if or not there was any account that early Christians pay tithe and why was there no account. Teach people about freewill givings and why they should. There are loads of topics to get through within this subject, and those that I've listed is by no means everything.

None of your complaints are addressing new issues - they've all been well-discussed, and I can bear with your being a late-comer to the scene. However, it still does not make any sense to "start from Deuteronomy 14" - that is not even the first place where tithes are taught, so why begin half-way?

Allta:

Tell me, which half truth have I said now? Is the fact that Pastors create fears in Modern Christians about tithe half truth? Is the fact that most tithe paying Christians don't do it according to how it was written in the Bible half truth? Is the fact that Pastors don't use Deut or even Heb 7 to teach people on how to pay tithe half truth?

Please stop flailing. Your half-truth was highlighted about Christianity and religion - that's where I began, not your change of subject up there.

Allta:

Well, I don't see my 3 candid points as half truth, and definately the fact that Christianity transits religion as a half truth either! A way of life is definitely different from a Religion in my own sight. Ofcourse not all Christians practices Christianity(eg. 75% of people in the UK call themselves Christians, and only 10% attend churches), not all those who practices Christianity are indeed true Christians.

Please share the difference between a way of life and a religion as defined in james 1:27. Please, I beg you - share.

Allta:

I've said it before, let me say it again: It's not compulsory to be a Christian, it's not compulsory to go to Church, it's not compulsory to even believe in God, it's not compulsory to tithe, it's not compulsory to even accept the fact that tithing isn't compulsory. It's not compulsory to agree with me, or me to agree with you. It's not compulsory to be born again, a man can choose to live a life on earth that goes towards heaven, or hell! That's what makes our life a lot more interesting than non-humans, we've got choices! Those who want to pay Tithe should do so, and those who aren't inclined should be left alone in peace and not in fear of courses. This is my own take on this topic all along! But that doesn't mean the truth behind Tithe shouldn't be unveiled as per the topic title! There has been so much bible-quotings, and posts within this thread, so I will not waste anyones time, again.

It may help tremendously to read through what has been discussed before assuming anything.

Allta:

My prayer is that we wouldn't miss the most import thing in our Christian journey , destination:Heaven! God help us! Amen!

Amen.

amen oooo

To Pilgrim.1

You still haven't answered my honest question.

You still haven't given an example of pastors who teaches pro-Tithe, but doesn't quote Mal 3:9

I don't know the answer to my honest question, still searching though. But I can give examples of Churches pro-Tithe and teaches Mal3:9 - RCCG, LightHouse, 4square, New Waters Christian Fellowship, Hopewall Envagelical Church etc. I can even give 100 if you want.

None of your complaints are addressing new issues - they've all been well-discussed, and I can bear with your being a late-comer to the scene. However, it still does not make any sense to "start from Deuteronomy 14" - that is not even the first place where tithes are taught, so why begin half-way?

I feel you're beating about the bush, ok if Deut 14 is half-way, begin from the genesis of Tithe to it's revelation. Pastors shouldn't use just Mal 3! That's my point, why do you have to mask the point by looking for holes?
Whether these points have been discussed or not, they should be taught by Pastors in Churches, that's my point! They are truths(contrary to what you will say), and should be taught.

Peace Out!
Allta

@Allta,

Allta:

To Pilgrim.1

You still haven't answered my honest question.

You still haven't given an example of pastors who teaches pro-Tithe, but doesn't quote Mal 3:9

I don't know the answer to my honest question, still searching though. But I can give examples of Churches pro-Tithe and teaches Mal3:9 - RCCG, LightHouse, 4square, New Waters Christian Fellowship, Hopewall Envagelical Church etc. I can even give 100 if you want

I'm trying to not have an argument with you and have repeatedly stated that I'm disinclined thereto. It seems you actually want an argument - well, if that's the case then you're in for some bleaching that will hopefully leave you well mannered. One thing I won't put up with is sanctimonious pretences of "peace out" that is inclined to something far from it.

There are many Anglican pastors who are pro-tithing and rather quote Malachi 3:10; the same with many I know among Catholics and most of the Assemblies of God Churches I'm familiar with. Let me be more specific -

[list]

The word “tithe” orignally meant ten percent (10%). The “tithe,” however, is only a barometer or guideline to help determine one’s sacrificial giving. Some can and should offer more than a 10% tithe; others may have circumstances that warrant them paying less than a 10% tithe.
. . .

If a tithe (10%) is legitimately too much for one’s current budget, a member may begin with a lower percentage that will be both sacrificial and yet possible. Then the member may gradually raise the level of giving until the full tithe is reached. In this way brothers and sisters and families are making a decision for the Lord first and only afterward considering their own needs and wants.

[note: apart from quoting malachi 3:4-10, it was later down the page that they quoted only verse 10 in their teaching:

302. Additional Scriptures on this call to trust are: Mal 3:10; Mt 6:19-34; Lk 12:22-32; 1 Tm 6:17-19.]

source: Legion of the Order of St. Michael (Catholic)[/list]


[list]

The Bible, in *Malachi 6:10, says, "Bring the full tithe into my house." A tithe is the giving back of 10% of what God has given us. It’s a form of proportionate giving. We may begin anywhere (on average in mainline Protestantism it’s about 1.5% of annual income), then increase our percentage, perhaps each year. For some, tithing is inconceivable; for others, it’s the least they can do; for all of us, we can pray about it.

[* they evidently meant to quote Malachi 3:10 - not 6:10]

source: United Church of Christ[/list]


[list]As far as I know, Anglicans do not "force" tithes on their members; but here's a quote to show that it was Malachi 3:10 that was used instead of verse 9 -

In addition to the income generating activities and the other sources specified above, the Church expects more tithing from members whether rich or poor. It is a scriptural injunction (Malachi 3: 10). Nothing is too great and nothing too small

source: The Church of Nigeria[/list]


[list]

TITHING at 10% may not be possible for everyone at first, so you start at whatever percentage is do-able and challenging for you, and then you learn to grow in your giving until you reach 10% and beyond. We are called to give joyfully and thankfully to God FIRST, for that which God has done and continues to do for us!

source: Evangelical Lutheran Church[/list]


[list]

The Assemblies of God is also concerned about people who withhold tithes when they do not like decisions and directions espoused by spiritual leaders. Christians should fellowship with a local body of believers and bring their whole tithes into that storehouse (Malachi 3:10).

source: Assemblies of God[/list]

The above are specific cases that I'm well aware of that are pro-tithing and are not abusive. Second, they quote Malachi 3:10 (not "Mal. 3:9" - and there are numerous others who follow that same pattern. This was why I hinted that "Malachi 3:9" is not the most quoted verse in churches today - and even those who quote in in some other churches have not thereby argued that those in their congregations who don't tithe are cursed - they do not teach such. You might complain about some churches with comparably few denominations in contrast to larger churches like the Anglican (over 18 million members in Nigeria alone) and the Catholic Church (over 17 million members in Nigeria alone) - have you also considered them? You tend to assume that all pastors and churches who are pro-tithing never quote anything else than your troubled "Malachi 3:9" - you never consider others who have millions of members far more than those you mentioned.

I hope this will help you; but if you're sporting for an unnecessary argument, please be my guest.

Allta:

I feel you're beating about the bush, ok if Deut 14 is half-way, begin from the genesis of Tithe to it's revelation.

Thank you, but why is my comment 'beating about the bush'? Are you sporting for an argument? I've asked this question repeatedly, and if you can't discuss without such tomfoolery, let me know. It is this kind of stupidity that I like to bleach once and for all! Just let me know how you want to discuss and let me bleach your retired sanctimony!

Allta:

Pastors shouldn't use just Mal 3! That's my point, why do you have to mask the point by looking for holes?

I'm not masking the point - and there's no reason why Pastors cannot use Malachi 3 or any verse they are led to use. Telling people what to use and what not to use is illiterate. The apostle Paul used Exodus 16:18 to preach about Christian giving in 2 Cor. 8:15 - I didn't hear folks like you shout your guts out that he should not have used the Exodus 16 verse, since it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with ANY type of giving!

Again in both 1 Cor. 9:9 and 1 Tim. 5:18, he also quoted Deuteronomy 25:4 - "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn" - why are you not screaming out your guts that he should not have used that OT verse about "ox" for Christian giving?

Folks like you just sit down and plaster just about any vacancy of thought you can muster and then seek to commendeer a presumption over others - telling them what they can quote and what they cannot quote. This was why I asked you if you're the Lord's personal secretary to begin to tell others what they can teach and where they cannot teach from. How have YOU been labouring for Him in His vineyard other than sit here and whinge in such a manner? If you had carefully read through this thread, you'd not be making such otiose remarks.

Allta:

Whether these points have been discussed or not, they should be taught by Pastors in Churches, that's my point! They are truths(contrary to what you will say), and should be taught.

You can only talk about what you're familiar with and not bragging about some "truth" you have no grasp of at all.

Thanks for giving lengthy examples, I'm impressed I must confess. But you've answered 50% of my question. Moreover, don't you think using Mal 3:10 and not Mal 3:9 in same Chapter is a bit bizzare? BTW I stated that Mal 3:9 is one of the most quoted verses in churches today, I didn't say it's the most quoted verse in churches today. You see yourself!? Even some unbelievers know John 3:16 is the most quoted verse in the bible.

There are plenty of people in the New testament who quoted the old testament, even Christ himself did. Don't mix or mock up points here, my point is not that Pastor shouldn't quote Mal 3 when they teach about tithe, my point is to cover all grounds. And I sincerely believe if people must pay tithe, they should do it as commanded from the same old testament they are preaching from! What's so difficult in that? What's so difficult in eating ones' tithe?

I've agreed that tithing should be done willingly, but why can't people who pay tithe pay it as commanded in the Bible? At least you can't deny that Bible said to eat ones tithe with the needy, can you? To say that will be shallow indeed. I think we're both God secretary or PA, don't you think. At least one common thing is we both quote from the bible!

Did Christ ever paid tithe? if you're going down the argumentative route, you better be prepared not to sleep tonight.

For your info, I don't sit here and whinge. I have been blessed by this post have since try my best to liberate others who have been in my predicament. I don't need to be blowing my trumpet as to what work I do in my church and community. I don't need to blow my trumpet on how many souls I preach, teach and evangelise to, and how many people give their life to Christ in the community where I preach. My reward is indeed in heaven, that's why I said what will it benefit me to argue with you and loose my soul.

Peace Out!
Allta

Allta:

Thanks for giving lengthy examples, I'm impressed I must confess. But you've answered 50% of my question.

Okay, I withdraw my previous attitude. Please pardon my impatience (actually it was due to the fact that your questions have been addressed so many times in various threads - and I didn't feel like going into a long-drawn out argument all over again on the same issue). So now, let's discuss and not argue, yeah? Yep.

Allta:

There are plenty of people in the New testament who quoted the old testament, even Christ himself did. Don't mix or mock up points here, my point is not that Pastor shouldn't quote Mal 3 when they teach about tithe, my point is to cover all grounds.

That's okay, and no - I wasn't mocking up points. I agree - they should cover all grounds.

Allta:

And I sincerely believe if people must pay tithe, they should do it as commanded from the same old testament they are preaching from! What's so difficult in that? What's so difficult in eating ones' tithe?

Well, at the risk of repeating myself: the argument that tithers should do it as commanded from the OT is not balanced or objective. It is like saying that we must follow the "letter" and throw away the "principle". If one must always follow a rule of "do it as commanded from the same old testament", then what would you say in Paul's quoting two OT verses and using them to exhort about Christian giving? Should Christians look for "ox" in a literal manner? Or, in the case of quoting Exodus 16:18, should they look for gathering manner in a LITERAL sense when Paul quoted that verse in 2 Cor. 8:15?

Of course, Paul himself made it clear that he was not making a 'LITERAL' meaning of Deuteronomy 25:4 when he quoted it in 1 Cor. 9:9-10; and it is obvious he was not making a literal meaning of gathering manna when he quoted Exodus 16:18 for Christian giving in 2 Cor. 8:15. You can see it does not follow that just because we quote an OT verse, then we should look for a LITERAL application. I guarantee you that if such were the case, there's no way you and I could be Christians in the new covenant! People could use any verse they feel led to and use the principle of that verse to exhort and expound upon their teaching in a healthy manner.

Allta:

I've agreed that tithing should be done willingly, but why can't people who pay tithe pay it as commanded in the Bible? At least you can't deny that Bible said to eat ones tithe with the needy, can you? To say that will be shallow indeed.

Why should one be a legalistic reader of the Bible? If you see legalism in those verses, then I can bear with you. But the point is that you're forcing a literal application on "tithes" using on Deuteronomy 14, which is quite unhealthy. The principle there was not about "self" - it was about OTHERS. Study it carefully. Often times many people stop at verse 26 - they fail to read the last two verses (28-29):

[list]At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.[/list]

Yes, tithers themselves were to rejoice in the blessing God had given them in their tithes - but more importantly than "self" is the blessing of looking towards others.

Allta:

Did Christ ever paid tithe? if you're going down the argumentative route, you better be prepared not to sleep tonight.

Okay, I'm awake - just for you. I already repeated that I'm not inclined to unnecessary arguments; but since you are keen on that, please be my guest.

My answer was based on your previous post before you edited it. So let me consider a few things more you added.

Allta:

Thanks for giving lengthy examples, I'm impressed I must confess. But you've answered 50% of my question. Moreover, don't you think using Mal 3:10 and not Mal 3:9 in same Chapter is a bit bizzare? BTW I stated that Mal 3:9 is one of the most quoted verses in churches today, I didn't say it's the most quoted verse in churches today. You see yourself!? Even some unbelievers know John 3:16 is the most quoted verse in the bible.

The point is that Malachi 3:9 is NOT one of the most quoted - people often make this hooha and fail to show evidently that such is the case. That was why I didn't just want to say so, but went on to quote you precise examples. The second point was this: how do you compare denominations that are not even as large as the Anglican, Assemblies of God, and Catholic - who all use Malachi 3:10 instead of verse 9? That's why I hinted that you're talking only in terms of what you know (probably second hand propaganda). Please stop misleading yourself by being reactive - it's unnecessary and does not show that you're informed.

Allta:

I think we're both God secretary or PA, don't you think. At least one common thing is we both quote from the bible!

No sir - if that's your calling, to God be the glory. But me, I am definitely not His amanuensis (Romans 11:34 - "For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?".

Allta:

For your info, I don't sit here and whinge. I have been blessed by this post have since try my best to liberate others who have been in my predicament. I don't need to be blowing my trumpet as to what work I do in my church and community. I don't need to blow my trumpet on how many souls I preach, teach and evangelise to, and how many people give their life to Christ in the community where I preach. My reward is indeed in heaven, that's why I said what will it benefit me to argue with you and loose my soul.

I know people who talk the way you do - all mouth and nothing to show for it. That is why you have time to complain against others. It's not hard to tell, because with service comes maturity - and maturity is demonstrated in what you tend to be polarised towards. If one spends too much time complaining against others, it's a sure sign he's busy at nothing.

Cheers.

That's more like a Christlike attitude. Please be prepared to repeat yourself as much as necessary, I've got a learned spirit and I'm ready to learn and listen. I just have questions that needs to be answered that's all, you can't blame me for that, can you? There are so many figurative expressions in the Bible, the "ox" passage Paul quote is simply that.

I find it extremely difficult to understand that these 6 points are figurative expressions Deut 14
1. Tithe every year -v22
2. Eat your tithe at a place where God will choose -v23
3. Exchange you tithe for money(silver) if the place is far from you that you can't take your tithe there. -v24,25
4. Use the money(silver) to buy anything you want -v26
6. Every 3 years, bring tithe and store them in your towns for the needy.-v29

If it is, then this means that every of the Mosaic law could be seen figuratively. Even tithing itself could be figurative?

But as I can see and understand:
1. Tithing is Objective, or not balanced on compulsory grounds. Whoever pays it, let them, and whoever doesn't, let them.
2. Eating Tithe is Objective, or not balanced as stated in Deut. Whoever is eating it, let them, and whoever isn't, let them.

A question you failed to touch on: Why didn't Christ or early Christians in NT pay tithe?

Peace out!
Allta

I know people who talk the way you do - all mouth and nothing to show for it. That is why you have time to complain against others. It's not hard to tell, because with service comes maturity - and maturity is demonstrated in what you tend to be polarised towards. If one spends too much time complaining against others, it's a sure sign he's busy at nothing.

I have not complain about anyone or attacked anyone, you started this whole business of firing darts. I've only been asking questions and submitting my opinions on matters as concerning the issue of Tithing. If by replying to posts on Nairaland shows that I have nothing to do, and nothing to show for the works of my hands, don't you think you're a front-runner in what you're saying I am - I've got posts on Nairaland under 100(Since 2005), you have over 6600 posts(Since 2007). Who is lazy and who is occupied here? Take my advice, spend more of those nairaland times evangelizing and winning more souls for Christ. At least, a soul a day for 100 posts on nairaland will deprive hell of some desperate souls, don't you think?

I'm not complaining, only asking questions; and if you're so immature to answer, keep quiet and let those who are answer. And if you are tired of replying to posts on this thread, then keep quiet and find something busy to do and let those who have the time reply. You don't have to keep saying I'm not informed and all that. It's a free world, It's your choice, it's your call!

Peace Out!
Allta!

Allta:

That's more like a Christlike attitude. Please be prepared to repeat yourself as much as necessary, I've got a learned spirit and I'm ready to learn and listen. I just have questions that needs to be answered that's all, you can't blame me for that, can you? There are so many figurative expressions in the Bible, the "ox" passage Paul quote is simply that.

Okay, that's welcome - I don't mind repeating myself if only just to be of benefit both ways. I never stop learning nor do I know it all; so, yes I'm sure there's also something to learn from yours: it works both ways.

Allta:

I find it extremely difficult to understand that these 6 points are figurative expressions. If it is, then this means that every of the Mosaic law could be seen figuratively. Even tithing itself could be figurative?

It ought not be so. 'Figurative' and 'principle' are not the same thing; the former tends to be often driven to passive analogies, while the latter takes a specfic case and leads out to a more general deduction.

But again: what effect does this have on 'every Mosaic law'? The Law itself is not given a linear legalistic interpretation. There's always a progression from a unit to a whole, and from a lower to a general wholeness. I'll give you a specific example:

(a) circumcision:
Even under the Law when it was enjoined (Lev. 12:3), it drew from what God had specifically ordained to Abraham prior to the Law (Gen. 17:14). However, the intrinsic meaning of circumcision is contained within the Law itself in Deut. 30:6 -

      And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed,
      to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou
      mayest live.

This again was what the prophets understood was the real meaning behind the call to circumcision: "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem" [Jer. 4:4]. But was this consistent even unto the times of the NT? Indeed, it was -

      "and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter" - Rom. 2:29

The same could be made for sabbath, the Passover, etc.

What about the tithe? Is it figurative? No. How do we know this? Because even after the resurrection of Christ and the establishment of the Church, the apostle Paul specifically pointed back to the OT Law when he spoke about supporting ministers of the Gospel:

       Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things
       live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar
       are partakers with the altar?  Even so hath the Lord ordained
       that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel
       ~~ [1 Cor. 9:13-14]

Just ask yourself some questions here:

      (a) was the apostle asking us Christians to do exactly what we read about in the OT?

      (b) who was he referring to in verse 13?  what did he mean by the altar and temple?

      (c) who were the people who ministered at the altar and temple - and where was he
           quoting?

You see, he was pointing back to the OT, not to ask us to become clones of those verses, but to derive their principles in supporting Christian ministers.

     

Allta:

But as I can see and understand:
1. Tithing is Objective, or not balanced on compulsory grounds. Whoever pays it, let them, and whoever doesn't, let them.
2. Eating Tithe is Objective, or not balanced as stated in Deut. Whoever is eating it, let them, and whoever isn't, let them.

That's okay - your view.

Allta:

A question you failed to touch on: Why didn't Christ or early Christians in NT pay tithe?

I don't know why they didn't pay tithe - just like I don't know why Paul didn't marry. The one thing I do know is that there is not  a single verse in all 66 books of the Bible that condemns tithe! NOT ONE. I know that many verses even before the NT actually disfavoured some of the practices of the OT Law; but isn't it amazing that NOT ONE VERSE specifically condemns tithes? Jesus actually taught others to tithe - we both know that; but did any of the apostles anywhere specifically condemn it? No. We know that in NT teaching, they were averse to such things as the Jewish rites of sabbath and outward circumcision - but they did not say a single word anywhere to condemn tithes - not one.

Allta:

I have not complain about anyone or attacked anyone, you started this whole business of firing darts. I've only been asking questions and submitting my opinions on matters as concerning the issue of Tithing. If by replying to posts on Nairaland shows that I have nothing to do, and nothing to show for the works of my hands, don't you think you're a front-runner in what you're saying I am - I've got posts on Nairaland under 100(Since 2005), you have over 6600 posts(Since 2007). Who is lazy and who is occupied here? Take my advice, spend more of those nairaland times evangelizing and winning more souls for Christ. At least, a soul a day for 100 posts on nairaland will deprive hell of some desperate souls, don't you think?

Actually, men who whinge and complain as you do are a terrible loss to our generation! But I'll address your worry. It is not how much or how few posts one has that you get to show you've been "busy", so complaining that your posts on Nairaland are under 100 is a lazy copout. It's not my fault if you can't manage your time and someone else has the fortune of doing well in that respects. There are also times that I've been away from Nairaland for quite a considerable time - you checked my profile, please check again and you'll see the huge gaps. In my more than 6000 posts, I have not been grumbling against any Christian over this 'tithe' issue and have gone several steps further to discourage such tendencies. It's not my fault that since 2005 you haven't risen to above 100 posts, is it? Or how does that make you a better person than those you've been complaining about on Malachi 3:9?

Allta:
I'm not complaining, only asking questions; and if you're so immature to answer, keep quite and let those who are answer.

I see you're feeling your own heat. . . it happens, so stop crying. You're not in for a discussion, let me know.

Allta:

And if you are tired of replying to posts on this thread, then keep quite and find something busy to do and let those who have the time reply.

More cries? What then is your point of asking more questions and pretending you're seeking "answers"?

Allta:

You don't have to keep saying I'm not informed and all that. It's a free world, It's your choice, it's your call!

Oh puhleease! Show some stuff! there's nothing holding you back from making informed inputs free from complaining.

Very typical of women. No one is contending the most post on Nairaland with you, it's like one moment, you show a green side of you, another moment, you show a red side. That shows and tell a lot about you.

I have other important "matters" to attend to now, Miss/Mrs 6600 post-on-Nairaland, so I'll call it a day. I suggest you go out now and win some souls for Christ before the end of day today. YES, YOU CAN!

Peace out! and Thanks for answering most of my questions.
Allta

Allta:


Very typical of women. No one is contending the most post on Nairaland with you, it's like one moment, you show a green side of you, another moment, you show a red side. That shows and tell a lot about you.

I have other important "matters" to attend to now, Miss/Mrs 6600 post-on-Nairaland, so I'll call it a day. I suggest you go out now and win some souls for Christ before the end of day today. YES, YOU CAN!

You should avoid interpolations that are not germane to your discussions - just a tip. But stay well and enjoy your evening.

Allta:
Peace out! and Thanks for answering most of my questions.

Anyday, much regards.

Allta:

To Pilgrim.1

You still haven't answered my honest question.

You still haven't given an example of pastors who teaches pro-Tithe, but doesn't quote Mal 3:9

I don't know the answer to my honest question, still searching though. But I can give examples of Churches pro-Tithe and teaches Mal3:9 - RCCG, LightHouse, 4square, New Waters Christian Fellowship, Hopewall Envagelical Church etc. I can even give 100 if you want.

I feel you're beating about the bush, ok if Deut 14 is half-way, begin from the genesis of Tithe to it's revelation. Pastors shouldn't use just Mal 3! That's my point, why do you have to mask the point by looking for holes?
Whether these points have been discussed or not, they should be taught by Pastors in Churches, that's my point! They are truths(contrary to what you will say), and should be taught.
Peace Out!
Allta

I have highlighted this post and bolded a part of it because it captures my attitude to some of the discussions of tithing on this thread and others and why I refuse to engage in debate on irrelevant or secondary issues. I too have found that looking for small mistypes or minor inaccuracies or even misrepresenting what people had in fact said quite accurately, when put in context, totally detracts from the essential issues.

Things like "Christianity is/is not a religion";  oh you opponent of tithing once said "tithing is perfectly OK" and several other examples of such pettiness, I find to be a waste of time not advancing discussion.

I think the central points being made by opponents of the modern teaching of "tithing" remain simple; overwhelmingly, "tithing" is being taught to Christians as an obligation (this is wrong and should be opposed); teach people the truth i.e. they have freedom whether or not to "tithe"; if a Christian does indeed know the truth and yet chooses to tithe then that is "perfectly OK". Very simple!!!

As the title of the thread clearly implies and as opponents of the modern teaching of "tithing" have said repeatedly - a main motivation for challenging the teaching is the clear evidence of the prevalence of abuse and false teaching of the "doctrine".

pilgrim.1 :

If you're not inclined to tithing, leave those who desire to tithe to freely do so. And unless you want to deny what your own Bible teaches, it's clear that Christianity IS a religion - let's stop all these half-truths and 'sweet denials'.

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this,
To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,
and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

I just thought i'd asked, even if christianity is a religion is it the way it is defined above that it is being practised by most churches today? Is it that way you practise your own christianity or is it by practising man made doctrines and obsolete rites[tithes, first fruits e.t.c] of the old testament which are NOT relvant to true christian worship.

Enigma:

I have highlighted this post and bolded a part of it because it captures my attitude to some of the discussions of tithing on this thread and others and why I refuse to engage in debate on irrelevant or secondary issues. I too have found that looking for small mistypes or minor inaccuracies or even misrepresenting what people had in fact said quite accurately, when put in context, totally detracts from the essential issues.

Using distractions to discuss unrelated issues often come from the anti-tithing camp. If they never mentioned such unrelated issues, no one would be replying to those issues in the first place. It turns out that when replies are made to them, the anti-tithers using such distractions realize too quickly they were wasting time on non-essentials and then immediately abandon their own arguments.

Enigma:

Things like "Christianity is/is not a religion";  oh you opponent of tithing once said "tithing is perfectly OK" and several other examples of such pettiness, I find to be a waste of time not advancing discussion.

I never discussed such lines until they were mentioned - if anti-tithers are going to keep a good head on their shoulders, they ought to be thinking and maintaining course on the topic, not interpolating such unrelated issues into the body of the discussions and then whining when such issues are addressed.

Enigma:
I think the central points being made by opponents of the modern teaching of "tithing" remain simple; overwhelmingly, "tithing" is being taught to Christians as an obligation (this is wrong and should be opposed); teach people the truth i.e. they have freedom whether or not to "tithe"; if a Christian does indeed know the truth and yet chooses to tithe then that is "perfectly OK". Very simple!!!

This copout is often the song that comes at the end of an exposure to the what anti-tithers cannot bear in their own arguments.

Enigma:
As the title of the thread clearly implies and as opponents of the modern teaching of "tithing" have said repeatedly - a main motivation for challenging the teaching is the clear evidence of the prevalence of abuse and false teaching of the "doctrine".

We can address false teaching, not the often-repeated semantics that blur between distinctions. On both sides, there are unhealthy assertions, and one wonders why anti-tithers only look at what happens across the road but never look at what's been happening in their own camp.

KunleOshob:

I just thought i'd asked, even if christianity is a religion is it the way it is defined above that it is being practised by most churches today? Is it that way you practise your own christianity or is it by practising man made doctrines and obsolete rites[tithes, first fruits e.t.c] of the old testament which are NOT relvant to true christian worship.

Kunle, if you practise anything different from what you read in that verse, keep it to yourself. You're full of looking at what others are doing and never looking at your own self. I know what I do, I understand that verse, and I quoted it in reply to what was said prior to my reply.

Let any misconceptions be cleared up and the truth taught in churches.

Tithing is not an obligation - If you decide to give 10% (or any percentage for that matter) of your income, you should do it voluntarily and out of a cheerful heart. Tithing as a principle was never condemned in the bible, neither was it a practise of the new testament church.  Jesus did not condemn tithing, but taught giving in general something of the heart, done in worship of God.

'Non-tithers' shouldn't condemn those who tithe however - let each man give as he purposes in his heart. Do not take it upon yourselves to claim someone is 'under the law' or 'not acting in faith'.

Sowing and reaping remain a divine principle of God - if you give you shall receive. In this manner, there is nothing wrong in principle (in my opinion) in teaching from Malachi 3 regarding giving, as long as it is not taught as obligatory.

If I personally decide to use the 'tithe' or 10% as my giving level, I am free to do so - If a church/gathering of believers decides to adopt 10% as a giving level, it is also free to do so, provided that it is not presented as an obligation.

@debosky,

Thank you for that summary once again. It captures the essence of what some of us have been trying to say, and you did it in a very simple manner. There's no need for anyone to use tithe or any other type of Christian activity to castigate people; and once we can understand this, much of the disaffection will be minimised.

KunleOshob:

I just thought i'd asked, even if christianity is a religion is it the way it is defined above that it is being practised by most churches today? Is it that way you practise your own christianity or is it by practising man made doctrines and obsolete rites[tithes, first fruits e.t.c] of the old testament which are NOT relvant to true christian worship.

the question i asked you when i first noticed you here was " where is the love of God and His people in you?".  the more i read you the more i want to ask the same question you ask here i.e " Is it that way you practise your own christianity".

it is so easy to sit behind some God forsaken pc in ajegunle and rant about the church of Christ all day.  you are the kind of holier than thou person that man or God doesnt profit from.   i cant see you being an usher to a group of "sinners" or car park attendant to a group of people you would have concluded  are only riding cars becos they have not given money to your clasified "poor".

i see you got another recruit in allta.  did you hear him say he spent weeks reading and searhcing about tithe and yet still come to pilgrin for explanation.  is the God you guys ask question dead that he cannot answer questions on tithing for 1 week plus?  which kind of God are you guys asking?continue your slow poison religion.

i hope it is no sin or act of no faith to read devotionals cos this morning i read

THE UNCRITICAL TEMPER


"Judge not, that ye be not judged." Matthew 7:1

Jesus says regarding judging - Don't. The average Christian is the most penetratingly critical individual. Criticism is a part of the ordinary faculty of man; but in the spiritual domain nothing is accomplished by criticism. The effect of criticism is a dividing up of the powers of the one criticized; the Holy Ghost is the only One in the true position to criticize, He alone is able to show what is wrong without hurting and wounding. It is impossible to enter into communion with God when you are in a critical temper; it makes you hard and vindictive and cruel, and leaves you with the flattering unction that you are a superior person. Jesus says, as a disciple cultivate the uncritical temper. It is not done once and for all. [size=18pt]Beware of anything that puts you in the superior person's place.
[/size]
There is no getting away from the penetration of Jesus. If I see the mote in your eye, it means I have a beam in my own. Every wrong thing that I see in you, God locates in me. Every time I judge, I condemn myself (see Romans 2:17-20). Stop having a measuring rod for other people. There is always one fact more in every man's case about which we know nothing. The first thing God does is to give us a spiritual spring-cleaning; there is no possibility of pride left in a man after that.
[size=15pt]
I have never met the man I could despair of after discerning what lies in me apart from the grace of God[/size].

http://www.myutmost.org/06/0617.html

oswald chambers wrote this piece  more than 100yrs ago i think it is relevant to us today.

debosky:

Let any misconceptions be cleared up and the truth taught in churches.

Tithing is not an obligation - If you decide to give 10% (or any percentage for that matter) of your income, you should do it voluntarily and out of a cheerful heart. Tithing as a principle was never condemned in the bible, neither was it a practise of the new testament church.  Jesus did not condemn tithing, but taught giving in general something of the heart, done in worship of God.

'Non-tithers' shouldn't condemn those who tithe however - let each man give as he purposes in his heart. Do not take it upon yourselves to claim someone is 'under the law' or 'not acting in faith'.

Sowing and reaping remain a divine principle of God - if you give you shall receive. In this manner, there is nothing wrong in principle (in my opinion) in teaching from Malachi 3 regarding giving, as long as it is not taught as obligatory.

If I personally decide to use the 'tithe' or 10% as my giving level, I am free to do so - If a church/gathering of believers decides to adopt 10% as a giving level, it is also free to do so, provided that it is not presented as an obligation.

why do you have right to decide what you can do with your money and life?

pilgrim.1:

Kunle, if you practise anything different from what you read in that verse, keep it to yourself. You're full of looking at what others are doing and never looking at your own self. I know what I do, I understand that verse, and I quoted it in reply to what was said prior to my reply.

Just as i thought, youwould not be able to answer the question.

JJYOU:

why do you have right to devide what you can do with your money and life?

I can decide what to give - that is the instruction given in the new testament. Of course this presupposes that I have given my life to Christ and he lives through me.

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

I hope that answer is sufficient.

debosky:

Let any misconceptions be cleared up and the truth taught in churches.

Tithing is not an obligation - If you decide to give 10% (or any percentage for that matter) of your income, you should do it voluntarily and out of a cheerful heart. Tithing as a principle was never condemned in the bible, neither was it a practise of the new testament church. Jesus did not condemn tithing, but taught giving in general something of the heart, done in worship of God.

'Non-tithers' shouldn't condemn those who tithe however - let each man give as he purposes in his heart. Do not take it upon yourselves to claim someone is 'under the law' or 'not acting in faith'.

Sowing and reaping remain a divine principle of God - if you give you shall receive. In this manner, there is nothing wrong in principle (in my opinion) in teaching from Malachi 3 regarding giving, as long as it is not taught as obligatory.

If I personally decide to use the 'tithe' or 10% as my giving level, I am free to do so - If a church/gathering of believers decides to adopt 10% as a giving level, it is also free to do so, provided that it is not presented as an obligation.

Apart from the fact that tithing as defined in the bible bears absolutely no similarity to the twisted version that is being imposed on christians today by a manipulative clergy tithing was clearly condenmed in the bible in hebrews 7; please note that it is the same commandment to tithe in verse 5 that is being condenmed as weak and unprofitable in verse 18

Hebrews 7:5-19:

5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


In summary tithing was cancelled in verse 12 and condenmed in verse 18. That apart verse 13& 14 make it clear that even Jesus[our high priest] was excluded from collecting tithes becuase he is from the tribe of juda and not the tribe that serves at the altar[levites]and by law only those from the descendants of levi were entitled to collect tithes. Now if our lord Jesus christ was dis-qualified from collecting tithes, how much less the imposters that claim to be representing him?

KunleOshob:

In summary tithing was cancelled in verse 12 and condenmed in verse 18. That apart verse 13& 14 make it clear that even Jesus[our high priest] was excluded from collecting tithes becuase he is from the tribe of juda and not the tribe that serves at the altar[levites]and by law only those from the descendants of levi were entitled to collect tithes. Now if our lord Jesus christ was dis-qualified from collecting tithes, how much less the imposters that claim to be representing him?

Don't misunderstand - at it's root, tithe means 10% (or some other percentage) . Moses and Jacob paid tithes outside of the mosaic law (albeit in single instances) so you cannot define tithes ONLY on the basis of mosaic law.

The law is unprofitable in the context of the passage quoted, but giving in itself (which is the root of tithes) is not unprofitable. This is why I said tithing AS A PRINCIPLE (not the specific mosaic practice spoken of in Hebrews) was not condemned.

Anyone collecting tithes on the premise of the levitical order of collecting tithes due to no inheritance in Canaan is obviously wrong.

debosky:

Don't misunderstand - at it's root, tithe means 10% (or some other percentage) . Moses and Jacob paid tithes outside of the mosaic law (albeit in single instances) so you cannot define tithes ONLY on the basis of mosaic law.

The law is unprofitable in the context of the passage quoted, but giving in itself (which is the root of tithes) is not unprofitable. This is why I said tithing AS A PRINCIPLE (not the specific mosaic practice spoken of in Hebrews) was not condemned.

Anyone collecting tithes on the premise of the levitical order of collecting tithes due to no inheritance in Canaan is obviously wrong.

That is exactly what this thread seeks to address. Most preachers preach tithes based on the levitical law and wrongly present it to christians as compulsary. This thread seeks to enlighten christians on the truth about tihes so that they can make an informed decision to tithe or not to. You would agree with me that most christians tithe becos they don't know the truth and they have been mis-led into doing it. I know i sound very agrressive against tithes preachers and that is becos i not only feel pained cause i have been taken for a ride and abused by preachers we are supposed to trust would tell us the truth, i am also appalled at the fact that the fear of God is no longer in the clergy and preachers are freely using the name of God to fleece his children. John 8: 32 Ye would know the truth and the truth shall set you free _{[of the bondage of compulsary tithing]}

debosky:

I can decide what to give - that is the instruction given in the new testament. Of course this presupposes that I have given my life to Christ and he lives through me.

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

I hope that answer is sufficient.

very well sir thanks. some would like us to beleive it not within human power.

KunleOshob:

That is exactly what this thread seeks to address. Most preachers preach tithes based on the levitical law and wrongly present it to christians as compulsary. This thread seeks to enlighten christians on the truth about tihes so that they can make an informed decision to tithe or not to. You would agree with me that most christians tithe becos they don't know the truth and they have been mis-led into doing it. I know i sound very agrressive against tithes preachers and that is becos i not only feel pained cause i have been taken for a ride and abused by preachers we are supposed to trust would tell us the truth, i am also appalled at the fact that the fear of God is no longer in the clergy and preachers are freely using the name of God to fleece his children. John 8: 32 Ye would know the truth and the truth shall set you free _{of the bondage of compulsary tithing}

fearing God is the responsibility of every christian not just preachers. do you fear God?

debosky:

Don't misunderstand - at it's root, tithe means 10% (or some other percentage) . Moses and Jacob paid tithes outside of the mosaic law (albeit in single instances) so you cannot define tithes ONLY on the basis of mosaic law.

I'm learning everyday - so thank you again for making my point with the words in bold. Thank you, sir.