wiegraf: Incredible. You never cease to amaze me. The levels of honesty here are again at that nadir that only you seem capable of reaching. Or you may actually done yourself proud and reached new depths. You level so many silly little accusation against me then end it with a show of indignation. It beggars belief


Now, we're doing this to determine your definition of omniscience, not mine. My world view is not in question here, how you arrived at the conclusion that my world view is relevant would be beyond any sane man's comprehension abilities.




Dictionary definition of omniscience

www.google.com/search?client=ms-opera-mini&channel=new&redir_esc=&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=omNiscience+definition

1. Knowing everything

Wiki definition of omniscience

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience

"Omniscience ( /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/[1]), mainly in
religion, is the capacity to know everything that
there is to know."

(Note, you don't even have to go far down that page to see xtian philosophers already redefining the term to accommodate free will, and other xtians fully accepting predestination. Yet you somehow fail to see where the problem, or are at least trying to hide it)

Now, note again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with my understanding what omniscience is, what I don't understand is the anonyverse definition you give which you try to pass off as logical. It is not, in any way, shape or form. So trying to make it sound like I don't know what standard omniscience is, while you somehow have some sort of superior, truer understanding of the word, is a bit irritating and of course, dishonest. Moving on...




This is a bit of a ramble actually, maybe with better punctuation I will get it. But from what I can tell, you have just said he knows with absolute certainty what is going to happen in the future. Yes?

Again, this is very, very, very simple. Your supposed free will or not, his supposed free will or not, so long as he knows with absolute certainty what you are going to do, and neither of you can change that choice, that is the very definition of predestination. There is only one future that can actually take place. This is the conclusion of your assertion, not mine, from the descriptions you've given. The description that he cannot, under any circumstances, be wrong. How you want to turn this around and put this on me is beyond me.



See above. Then explain to me how this response to the question posed about being his being completely accurate and incapable of being wrong does not translate to a pre-written script

"Yes, He is able to tell you with a 100%
certainty, No, there is no chance of Him
being wrong."

So long as he knows exactly what you are going to do, and no matter what either of you do, no matter what new knowledge you may gain (and note, he himself cannot gain new knowledge), you will follow the script, how in the world can you call that free will?



Again, above



I'm not sure how came to this conclusion. But regardless, whether he can time travel or not is irrelevant. All that matters is; does he know everything? Your response of 'yes'
is all that's needed to void free will.



Again, blatant dishonesty. I asked you would he know the answer in any possible condition, your response was an unequivocal 'yes'.

So again, WTF? This is your conclusion



Wt heck does this mean? You need a friend to verify? This is simple, is he never wrong? Your answer is yes? The friend or no friend or orgy or not, all is irrelevant. All that matters is as he can never be wrong, whatever he tells you, whatever path you follow, you cannot deviate from his conclusions. No matter what either of you do.

Again, your conclusion, not mine.



How is an omniscient being not temporal? What do they have to do with each other except for the fact that an omniscient can tell you (note, not predict) what's going to happen? What you mean to say is your god is not temporal. Fine, but like above, this matters not. All that matters is 'does he know everything?'



Are you changing your definition of omniscience to his not knowing the choice you will make, just the list of choices available to you, yes or no? If not, this is again irrelevant and really why are you wasting time? So long as he knows what choice you are going to make with absolute certainty, you cannot deviate from the path no matter what you may do, thus you obviously don't have free will.



I have to come clean for what ffs?! 4k. We're talking about your view here, which I assume you would claim is the official xtian one (though just about everyone here seems to dispute that). You accuse me of swinging both views, ffs that is what you are doing.
un4king-believable



Oh, the shame! The horror! Really... You claim to be actaully logical...

mazaje:

The person that is being dishonest is you. . .The verses I quoted are also from the bible, no?. . .They are the words of Jesus himself and they are very clear. . .NON of the verses you quoted that talks about god's will are from Jesus himself. . .They are from his followers. . .When Jesus spoke he was very clear if you believe and you ask he will ALWAYS answer. . .From Jesus according to the bible. . .

Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

This verse is very clear, it speaks about your god's will and what he will do when people ask of him since these are the words of Jesus himself. . .It says if a son ask for bread will his dad give him a stone?. . .If he ask for fish will he give him a serpent?. . .It says if people who are evil give good things to their children what more about the father who is in heaven that will give good things to those who ask of him. . .Do YOU truly believe in this verse? If yes then why are you arguing and talking aimlessly about some elusive god's will when it is very CLEARLY stated in this verse?. . .

Is your god's will good or bad for his children seems you claim to speak for your god?. . .What stops your god from healing his children who he loves from cancer?. . .What stops him from healing his children that are paralysed? What is asking amiss when you ask for healing from terminal diseases that is causing you pain and making you suffer?. . .

Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Do you really believe in the bible? If you do then why are you arguing against what it says?. . .

mazaje: Anony here is one of your god's will from the bible. . .

For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Jeremiah 29:11

Mr_Anony:
How does any of these contradict the verses I gave you?

I gave you verse basically saying that God will answer according to His will. None of the verses you have provided insinuate that God will do anything against His will. Why are you being dishonest?

Logicboy03: Why do you run away from logical debates by trying to censor atheist arguments?

Why are you afraid of your children mixing with atheist children?

Why are you silent when evidence is shown to you that less religious countries perform better?

Why are you quick to denounce your memebers who do evil with the backing of the holy books as "fake christians" or "not real muslims"?

Why are you afraid to question your God? Why is he afraid to talk to atheists?

Why are you forced to admit that majority of your members are not "true muslims" or "true christians"?

advocate666:

Still slimming. Your verses contradict his verses in that your verses places a condition of god's will to answering prayers whereas there is no such condition in his verses.

Were my questions too hard for you or is that the fear of of soldier of christ showing?

Mr_Anony:
Let me make something clear here, Your questions are not in anyway hard for me. It is just that I don't like arguing with people who cannot reason properly. It is too much work.

For instance your statement here shows that you don't even know what a contradiction is. To respond to you, I'll have to school you up on what a contradiction is and then explain to you how those verses are or are not contradictions. I will have to do this amongst continuous silly objections coming from you. It is really tedious work and as far as i am concerned, you are not worth the effort.

So yes I am purposely ignoring you because making sense isn't really your forte.

Mr_Anony:
So is it your position that reality and the future is fixed and it must happen a particular way? Yes or No

edogho: I like your questions. You are knowledgable. Buh can i tell you that i don't back down from anything i start. On facebook your fellow atheists who are mainly americans and europeans ran from me after throwing insults. Some even blocked me. I want to also let you know that you can not totally conclude you have real knowledge. You can not claim that religion is the bane of any countries development because most religious african countries are far behind other parts of d world development wise long before orthodox religious practices reached our shores. About questioning God,a lot of men did that in the bible and we can still do the same today. The bible urges all to not ignorantly believe in all things they here as word of God buh to test it out first.

wiegraf:

Do have reading comprehension problems? Do I have to say it in yoruba or igbo? Or what do y'all call it, cockney?

MY POSITION DOES NOT MATTER. The whole point was to get your definition, not mine. This is about you, not me..

If you need more than that, my position is my position does not matter, at all. Wtf? And I have non on this matter, non, mostly because I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD(S). My stance on freewill, predermination, etc, absolutely nothing to do with this current discussion, they would not have god in their equations. And I'm not trying to push my view on you, I'm trying to get your definition.

Let me give you even more in case you don't get it. My position is that your position, no matter how you try to dress or hide it, or your being blinded by whatever, leads to this conclusion; a fixed future that cannot be changed. Again, that is your conclusion, not mine.

Do you agree with this? Is it so? If not, why not?

Again, if god is omniscient, if god cannot be wrong, then the future is already set in stone, hence non of us have free will. If I'm wrong, show me how, else meh.. My own position has nothing to do with this discussion. Sheesh

Mr_Anony:
The above is a non-answer. I believe that the future isn't fixed like a movie but has multiple possible outcomes and so I have defined omniscience thus as one who knows all possible outcomes resulting from all possible causes. This allows for free-willed individuals (or to be more to the point, people with freedom of choice). That is my definition of an omniscient being.

If the future is fixed, then it is only one possible outcome. The definition holds.
If the future is variable, then there are multiple possible outcomes. The definition still holds.

The definition holds regardless of whether you think individuals have freewill or not. I don't see your point. . .but then of course you never had a position to begin with.

It has been nice playing with you.

Logicboy03:




Fail.


Knowing all possible outcomes doesnt not make someone omniscient. You took a dubious definition that suited your dubious philosophy

Omnipotence is;
-knowing all outcomes
-knowing the outcome(s) that will be taken

It is one thing to know my choices but another to know which one I will take. I know all the paths to my house but that knowledge is useless to a person who wants to intercept me if he doesnt know the one path I am going to take.


Omnipotence means a fixed future. A fixed future means no freewill.


Variable future- meaning that there is a problem of knowing the choices I can make and the outcomes but the the one choice I will make.

Mr_Anony:
I believe you mean omniscience.

At any given time t, an omniscient beinbg knows all your choices prior to that point and knows all your choices and resulting effects from that point. therefore he knows precisely which choice you will pick and exactly what will result from it.

If to you this means that you don't have freewill, then so be it. You don't have freewill. Either way I am not fussed.

Mr_Anony:
The above is a non-answer. I believe that the future isn't fixed like a movie but has multiple possible outcomes and so I have defined omniscience thus as one who knows all possible outcomes resulting from all possible causes. This allows for free-willed individuals (or to be more to the point, people with freedom of choice). That is my definition of an omniscient being.

If the future is fixed, then it is only one possible outcome. The definition holds.
If the future is variable, then there are multiple possible outcomes. The definition still holds.

The definition holds regardless of whether you think individuals have freewill or not. I don't see your point. . .but then of course you never had a position to begin with.

It has been nice playing with you.

advocate666:

I am still trying to ascertain, the usefulness of such a being.

tpia1:

You'll know the usefulness when your demons turn on you in your abode.

wiegraf:

So, you claim there are multiple paths anyone could take using free will, yet you specifically say god knows with 100% accuracy what you are going to do and he cannot be wrong. He knows with 100% accuracy what you are going to do with your free will and he cannot be wrong? Thereby implying that no matter what you do with your free will, you must follow his script? You say this with a straight face?

Don't go around claiming you have some sort of superior logic when you clearly do not. This is pure nonsense, it's m.oronic, as in I read your posts these days with a facepalm. You are sheeple, brah. Fanatic-like sheeple, just masked a bit. Well, not masked well at all, but masked

Logicboy03:

Yes. sorry, I meant "omniscience"


Now, if God knows the choice I will make then it is fixed.

Mr_Anony:
Not necessarily. Let's say I know you totally and completely so that if you came to a cross junction, I know exactly which path you'll take: i.e I know you'll turn left not right and not middle. I also know that if you ask me to predict and I say left, you will immediately go through the middle road.
Now this becomes hard to prove to you because by asking me and me telling you. I would have altered the flow of events.
The best way I can prove this to you is that I pre-record a tape that can only be played after you have made your choice and give it to you. Then I tell you that you plan to take the left road. Armed with this information, you promptly change your plans and go down the middle road.
When you get to your destination you play the tape and it tells you that you have gone down the middle road. Notice that at no point did I make any choices for you, neither did I fix the future. I just happen to know everything about you and how you think and make your decisions.

Logicboy03:



LMAO.....threatening peeps with imaginary creatures?

tpia1:

no, just reminding some of you your demons are waiting for the go ahead to dish you your own medicine.

i hate cowardly f.ools who think they're anonymous online.

plaetton:

So why is he not acting according to the will set out in the bible?

plaetton:



Every is going to start blaming the devil now, no one is going to question god for abdicating his responsibility to protect innocent children.

Mr_Anony:
How does any of these contradict the verses I gave you?

I gave you verse basically saying that God will answer according to His will. None of the verses you have provided insinuate that God will do anything against His will. Why are you being dishonest?

Mr_Anony:
Here is the same verse when not lifted out of context.

For thus says the Lord: After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place. For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive.

Jeremaih 29:10-14

Again, why are you being dishonest?

Mr_Anony:
Yes Ithat is what I have said minus the bold. God is not a temporal being so time for Him is not a sequence of events as it is for you. The part in bold does not follow because knowing what you will do does not equate to making you do it.


The fact that you don't like or understand an argument doesn't make it flawed.

mazaje:

Jesus promises many times that he will answer the prayers of his children who he loves. For example, in Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Matthew 18:19
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them

From these verses we have seen some of anony's god's will. . .ask believe and it will be yours. . .lets wait for anony to come and tell us that the bible does not really mean what it says. . .

wiegraf:

Do have reading comprehension problems? Do I have to say it in yoruba or igbo? Or what do y'all call it, cockney?

MY POSITION DOES NOT MATTER. The whole point was to get your definition, not mine. This is about you, not me..

If you need more than that, my position is my position does not matter, at all. Wtf? And I have non on this matter, non, mostly because I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD(S). My stance on freewill, predermination, etc, absolutely nothing to do with this current discussion, they would not have god in their equations. And I'm not trying to push my view on you, I'm trying to get your definition.

Let me give you even more in case you don't get it. My position is that your position, no matter how you try to dress or hide it, or your being blinded by whatever, leads to this conclusion; a fixed future that cannot be changed. Again, that is your conclusion, not mine.

Do you agree with this? Is it so? If not, why not?

Again, if god is omniscient, if god cannot be wrong, then the future is already set in stone, hence non of us have free will. If I'm wrong, show me how, else meh.. My own position has nothing to do with this discussion. Sheesh

truthislight:

there is a thing or two about this "omniscient" stuff.

When Yahweh has an interest in something he sees it true and of course, he has the capacity to know what the end of a course is going to be like.

But the bible does say that he turns his back on some one wicked and does not like to behold unrighteousness, he abandon such people to their ways.

That he knows the end result of all ways does not mean he is pushing people into any particular way, individuals have to decide that for themself, and ofcousre, he can tell the end result of the way you have chosen.

With that in mind, he can foretell the future based on the choices at hand.

O! Like i have said, when he have an Interest in doing any particular thing he sets it in motion, eg. Like the coming of Jesus christ that he foretold how and what will be and it all turned out so.

That said. He allows individual to chose their parts in life, but as a caring God he has giving guidlines on what the outcome of divers ways will lead to.

Again, his purpose must come to pass and cannot fail.

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).
................

When Yahweh turns his back on people and does not like to see what is bad can hadly fit into the notion that he "preordained" all things.

When he abandon Adam to satan, he can hadly had come back to fixe Adams way that he has chased out of the garden thereby.

wiegraf:

Ah, but you miss my point as well.

By your understanding of omniscience, can god (or any omniscient for that matter) tell you with absolute certainty, a hundred percent accuracy what you'll be doing 24 hours from now, with no chance of him being wrong, regardless of any conditions?

wiegraf:

Do have reading comprehension problems? Do I have to say it in yoruba or igbo? Or what do y'all call it, cockney?

MY POSITION DOES NOT MATTER. The whole point was to get your definition, not mine. This is about you, not me..

If you need more than that, my position is my position does not matter, at all. Wtf? And I have non on this matter, non, mostly because I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD(S). My stance on freewill, predermination, etc, absolutely nothing to do with this current discussion, they would not have god in their equations. And I'm not trying to push my view on you, I'm trying to get your definition.

Let me give you even more in case you don't get it. My position is that your position, no matter how you try to dress or hide it, or your being blinded by whatever, leads to this conclusion; a fixed future that cannot be changed. Again, that is your conclusion, not mine.

Do you agree with this? Is it so? If not, why not?

Again, if god is omniscient, if god cannot be wrong, then the future is already set in stone, hence non of us have free will. If I'm wrong, show me how, else meh.. My own position has nothing to do with this discussion. Sheesh

truthislight:

if Yahweh does that(ensure that you do his will bidding) your freewill will have been tampered with.

Though he can and have the power to, it is not what i learn from the bible that he does.

Yahweh knows the outcome of events but does not go "remote controlling all person" to do what he wants all the time.

But from the choices of individuals he knows what the outcome will be.

I dont flow with this "omniscient/predestined" stuff since i dont understand it that way from the bible.

Human are created in God's image and one of the things that goes with that is "freewill" and a rational mind that makes rational decisions and have the capacity to act accordingly.

It is a very stupid thing to say that Yahweh created two kids, one predestined to be a doctor and one predestined to be a thief and he at the same time said he will "reward them according to their did".

whose did?

Where they not predestined?

The guy that was predestined to be a thief cannot do otherwise. Pure absurdity!

Rather, Yahweh says, he has put life and death befor all, but pleaded, chose life so that you will live. = freewill and no predestination.

But he knows the way of life and the way of death.
Peace.