Mr_Anony:
First of all, i don't step into God's shoes. They are way too big for me.

Mr_Anony:
Now let us look at your question:
..........When you ask your father for money for school fees. All possible outcomes do not result in you gaining an education. Normally you assume it is your father's will to pay your fees but then it still remains his choice to pay or not to pay and he is justified on how he chooses to spend his money (for instance he might feel that school is not the best thing for you).

It will be the most faulty kind of thinking to say that because you asked your father and he chose to pay your fees therefore your father is subject to your will.

God is not a computer program with fixed input and output commands and responses, He is a Person. Prayer stems from a relationship with this Person. God is not under any obligation to answer prayer. He answers because He loves us not because it is His duty to make our wishes come true.

Don't make the mistake of trying to deny God the power of choice just so that you can fit Him into your toolbox.

Mr_Anony:
Logic is truly lost you.

Mr_Anony:
You have made a very wrong assumption here as usual. I don't know how you came to the conclusion that God cannot tweak His design to save a life if He chooses to.

Mr_Anony:
I would deduce that that was more or less about the same thing the devil hoped to gain. Unlike you however, he wasn't foolish enough to come to the conclusion that because Jesus didn't do the magic tricks he was demanding, it therefore automatically meant that He was afraid to prove that He is the Son of God

Mr_Anony:
Actually, that's how I would describe your arguments funny enough


All you have to do now is show us from the bible one instance where Elijah or anyone else forced God to do something against His will, failure to do this will tell us all that you are lying.

mazaje:

You see the problem is that you keep displaying your dishonesty when you do this. . .You have stated and made comments here that are completely fasle, now you are resulting to saying things I never said. No where did I say elijah or any one else forced your god to do anything, that is your own statement so deal with your shenanigans. . .I only stated that your god was subject(a motive, cause, or ground to elijah's whims. Unless if subject means force in you own dictionary. . .When you know you aren't making sense you result to this tactics of forcing words on people or trying to make people argue on your turf because you know you aren't making sense.

Mr_Anony:
First of all, i don't step into God's shoes. They are way too big for me.

Now let us look at your question:
..........When you ask your father for money for school fees. All possible outcomes do not result in you gaining an education. Normally you assume it is your father's will to pay your fees but then it still remains his choice to pay or not to pay and he is justified on how he chooses to spend his money (for instance he might feel that school is not the best thing for you)

It will be the most faulty kind of thinking to say that because you asked your father and he chose to pay your fees therefore your father is subject to your will.

God is not a computer program with fixed input and output commands and responses, He is a Person. Prayer stems from a relationship with this Person. God is not under any obligation to answer prayer. He answers because He loves us not because it is His duty to make our wishes come true.

Don't make the mistake of trying to deny God the power of choice just so that you can fit Him into your toolbox.

Yes He was.

inurmind:


Negative!
Unlike me, the devil already believed in god's existence.
Heck! They were even padis back in the days, so we are talking of two different things. (go talk to advocate666 if u are so interested in the devil).

More like me, the people and priests of baal wanted god to prove he was supreme to their idol.
I also want god to prove his supremacy to idols which I consider lifeless. So its the same thing as wanting to prove his existence.

musKeeto:
Oh sometimes you try to...

Can you post relevant Biblical verses that support your stance here? E resemble wetin one of these yoga people write.

wiegraf: An addendum to what has already been said by the good floor



So what are you saying here, he knows all the possible outcomes but does not know which specific one will occur? Is that your definition of omniscience?

Mr_Anony:
Oh no I don't.



I don't need to. My stance is that there is nowhere in the bible that portrays God as under man's control. If you claim there is, then the burden of proof lies on you to show it from scripture not me.

Logicboy03:

Ad hominem when you have nothing logical to say.

lolz......you are assuming. Not me. You are assuming that God can change inevitable outcomes based on how the world is designed. This is based on the assumption that god exists and based on a further assumption that that god is Yaweh.

a) There are no natural laws or gravity or whatever if God changes it as he wills. There is no point studying physics because gravity doesnt affetc those falling from planes, terminal diseases dont kill people and oxygen is not needed to survive. We dont need doctors, all we need is faith

b) If Yaweh was truly omniscient and omnipotent, he would have been smart enough to design a world where these things are self correcting. However, like a faulty serviceman, Yaweh rushes to tweak things when some faithful guy complains.

Mr_Anony:

If I design a video game and then play a cheat code that you don't know, it doesn't make me any less smart. In fact it is counts as further proof that I designed the video game.

Mr_Anony:
Negative,

The people did not initiate the contest in 1Kings 18, Elijah did. In fact if you read from chapter 17 you will see where He makes a prophecy that there will be drought, God tells him to leave the land and God tells him when to return and present himself to Ahab. Everything that happened there was because God willed it to happen at that time. Elijah was following God's instructions all the way through.

I don't read anywhere where it says .....And the people came to Elijah and said "let us have a contest - prove your God to us".

The proof of God's existence is all around you. If you can't recognize it then that's just unfortunate for you. God is under no obligation to conjure magic tricks just to impress you. You are not that important.

mazaje:

Why sdo you keep doing this?. . .Pls stop it you are trying way to hard. . .He is NOT justified on how he choses to spend his money. It is my fathers duty to educate me if he has the means. . .Every RESPONSIBLE father has a DUTY to educated his child. . .Stop this nonsense. . .You are making a fool of your self with this ridiculous nonsense you are spewing. . .Every RESPONSIBLE father has a DUTY to feed and EDUCATE his child as long as he afford to do so. . .failure to do so makes him irresponsible. . .Pls sometimes try to read the nonsense you are spewing. . .

I repeat every responsible father owes his child a good and quality education if he can afford it and is subject to his child's will on that. I know many parents that deny themselves many things because they owe it to their kids to get them educated, they are completely under their children's will when it comes to paying their school fees. That is what responsible parents do. Talk more of a responsible god. . .

So god is a person right, now tell me which person will deny his child help when his child calls up on his to save him from a burning building? Which person will do that? Every parent is under obligation to answer his child if the child is in a burning building, you claim your god is your heavenly father and loves humans but in another sentence it is not his obligation to save humans that are in danger? What are you saying?. . .Pls go to a children's hospital if you have the ability to heal those suffering children that are suffering and are in pains I KNOW you will do it, talk more of a god. Humans respond to the distress calls of strangers they do not even know talk more of a god that loves them and refuses to help them when they are in trouble. . .I repeat the fact that your god allows sits there and allows a christian who you claim he loves to have terminal disease shows that is his will for the person. If the person prays he is now trying to change your god's will for him, no?. . .Some times pls try to read what you type before posting them. . .

Another bogus nonsense, even we as human beings do not have choice in some cases, if you see your child being attacked by bullies that are inflicting very serious injuries on him and you have the ability to stop them you will not have a choice in that case you will run and save your child without thinking. So your nonsense talk about your god having a choice is moot. . .If you read the bible it doesn't talk about god and choice. no where does it say that it only talks about doing god's will and receiving god's rewards. . .Pray with faith and it shall be answered, even Jesus says what ever you ask in my name will be giving unto you. obey God and his blessing will fall upon you, serve Him and he will protect you, do this and god will do that, no where does it say that god has a choice not to answer you if you obey him. . .Keep spewing your nonsense that are not even biblical. . .

Mr_Anony:
Oh no I don't.



I don't need to. My stance is that there is nowhere in the bible that portrays God as under man's control. If you claim there is, then the burden of proof lies on you to show it from scripture not me.

Mr_Anony:
Says who?

A father has the right to educate the child in the way he thinks is best for the child. The decision is the father's to make and not the child's

If for God, physical death is not the worst that can happen to you, why should God panic over physical death?

When you look at the phrases I highlighted, Whose will is paramount, man or God? Answer honestly.



This goes to show that you really don't understand the bible. It is right in front of you yet you can't see it.

You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. John 14:13


This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 1 John 5:14

You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. James 4:3


Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow.
For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.
Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” James 4:13-16

I rest my case.

Mr_Anony:
how did you come by that understanding?

Omniscience means all-knowing and not
all-doing. Nothing about omniscience implies
a fixed future run of events. You may consider
omniscience as the ability to know all possible
outcomes of an event and all the
permutations and combinations of all possible
events.

Mr_Anony:
I did not say the bolded neither does it make logical sense to know all possible outcomes and yet not know a specific outcome amongst all the outcomes you know. how did you come by that understanding?

Mr_Anony:
The rest of your comments follow from assumptions based upon a poor understanding of omniscience so I won't deal with the rest of your post until I am sure that we have an understanding of what omniscience is.

Mr_Anony:
Negative,

The people did not initiate the contest in 1Kings 18, Elijah did. In fact if you read from chapter 17 you will see where He makes a prophecy that there will be drought, God tells him to leave the land and God tells him when to return and present himself to Ahab. Everything that happened there was because God willed it to happen at that time. Elijah was following God's instructions all the way through.

I don't read anywhere where it says .....And the people came to Elijah and said "let us have a contest - prove your God to us".

The proof of God's existence is all around you. If you can't recognize it then that's just unfortunate for you. God is under no obligation to conjure magic tricks just to impress you. You are not that important.

Mr_Anony:
I assure you that was not an insult. You really don't understand logic.

Mr_Anony:
If God can change an outcome how then can you insist that it is inevitable for Him?

Mr_Anony:
Strawman

Mr_Anony:
If I design a video game and then play a cheat code that you don't know, it doesn't make me any less smart. In fact it is counts as further proof that I designed the video game.

inurmind:

lol!
U think you're smart.
U are just as clueless as ur fellow sheep. And as a matter of fact u are using exactly the same tricks they did: I flawed their original argument and they quickly came up with another one about god being the one to initiate the contest and blah blah blah.
The main point here is that god proved himself when elijah prayed to him.
Do not be so childish as to start arguing over who started it.
What matters is that it happened anyway.

Mr_Anony:
The main point here is that God proved Himself when He decided to prove Himself and not because inurmind demanded it. God is under no obligation to appease you.

Logicboy03: Why do you run away from logical debates by trying to censor atheist arguments?

Why are you afraid of your children mixing with atheist children?

Why are you silent when evidence is shown to you that less religious countries perform better?

Why are you quick to denounce your memebers who do evil with the backing of the holy books as "fake christians" or "not real muslims"?

Why are you afraid to question your God? Why is he afraid to talk to atheists?

Why are you forced to admit that majority of your members are not "true muslims" or "true christians"?

arsenally:

@Logicboy03:

Have you tried arguing with someone who doesn't respect the basic rules of logical thinking?

It's an exercise in futility... and frankly a waste of time.

Mr_Anony:
The main point here is that God proved Himself when He decided to prove Himself and not because inurmind demanded it. God is under no obligation to appease you.

inurmind:


I am not demanding anything, I'm simply requesting that u pray for something which we can all confess to witnessing and lets see god answer u.

Here the poplar verse, ask and u shall be given, seek and u shall find comes to mind again. And no, its not applicable to money and cars alone.
Let u all powerful god who will never fail u answer this tiny prayer of urs.

mazaje:

Are you disputing the fact that it is every responsible's fathers duty to educate his child if he can afford to?. . .Really?. . .

It is the duty of the responsible father to educate his child. Simple

You are making things and running commentary on them as usual. . .The point is, why allow your kids to suffer unnecessarily if you have the ability to help them?. . .A god that loves his children will not allow them suffer terminal diseases for years before taking their lives, no?. .Even humans don't do that that is why humans are fighting to see to it that they find a cure to terminal illness, and ease the suffering of other humans that have terminal illness. . .If your child is down with cancer and you have the ability to cure him you will NOT think of a choice. . .actually non of what you are saying is even biblical anyway. .

What EXACTLY are you arguing about?. . .You have stared with making things as usual and forcing people to argue on your own turf, you know I never do that so quit trying. . .I was the one that first stated it. . .I said the fact their god was watching when they first got the disease or accident, and that he stood by and allowed it to happen, means that is his will and plans for them , no?. . .You claimed that your god is a person who loves chiristians but has the choice to do what ever he wants, and I stated that if your god is a person that loves his children i.e christians as you claim then there are are times he will not have a choice but help them and I gave you some examples. . .I then went on to say the bible does not talk about choice as you have stated it but commands and their resulting effects, if you obey god he will protect you, if you do what he wants he will bless you and if you pray he will answer you. Your claim that god is not under any obligation to answer prayer is not biblical cos it does not appear in the bible.

mazaje:
And this is written in which chapter and verse of the bible?. . .

Mr_Anony:
How does this question relate to the conversation I was having with inurmind? Please think b

wiegraf: On a random note, do you remember my architect from the matrix?



Did I say that was my understanding? That was a question. And the logical one to ask considering the post, as it made little sense.




You say he knows all permutations. You do not say anything about his knowing what path would actually be taken, hence my question about his cognizance of which actual path would be taken.

Anyways, assuming he actually knows what path would be taken, a terrible and conspicuous abuse of logic is this; how in what anonyverse could he know a path that has not been set yet?



I did not ask about his knowing the details of a path. I asked if he'd know which particular path would be taken.

So, again, assuming he knows what path mr x is going to take, which is what you seem to be saying, how in the universe can you say it does not imply a fixed path ffs? Why does this even have to be pointed out to you?

If he knows explicitly what's going to happen, that means the path has already been set. Any deviation from the already set path would mean he didn't actually know which path would be taken. This is primary school level reasoning...

Random: like I've told you before, the only way you can make omniscience stick with free will is by redefining it radically to mean he wouldn't know what step is going to be taken, just maybe the odds of each step occurring, like the architect in the matrix... We haven't gotten to the stage where I fully show you why though




This I agree with. But it's not exactly because I have a poor understanding, it's more the definition you've given makes as much sense as an omnipotent being creating a rock he can't carry.

Mr_Anony:
The same answer I gave you earlier still applies to whichever way you phrase the same question

inurmind:

I guess I'll have to simplify this:
Lets say we are classmates in primary school. Ur dad travelled to america when ur mom was pregnant for u. Therefore u have not actually seen him before.
Lets also imagine we are in the early ninties were letters were the most convienient and accessible ways of communicating.

In class u usually boast of how rich ur dad is in america, and how someday u are going to join him there.
U even show me the letters he writes to u, and how he writes that u should ask for whatever u want and he will give it to u.

Now as a local village kid with average reasoning abilities, I think to myself, ''well if his dad is so rich, why is he living a below average life like myself? why does he wear torn clothes like me whose dad is an average farmer? Why does he live in that mud hut and not in those big houses like the whites?
Does he really have a dad or did his mum just tell him that to cover up the shame of him being a bastard? Was she the one forging those letters?

And so to satisfy my curiosity I go meet u and ask: if ur dad is so rich, let him send u a dollar, a symbol that he actually is in america?
Now if u really do believe that he is in america, u will simply write that he send it to u.
But if u like me are also having doubts, u will agressively rain excuses on me, one of which is that ur father is not subject to appeasing me.
But can't u see, ur father says u should ask for whatever u want from him and he will give u.
He did not give any limitations or exceptions when saying that, so why can't u ask for a mere dollar?

Thinking about it, this scenario could be used in asking christians a lot of questions.

Anyway for now please answer the one I've asked.