Mr_Anony:
Perhaps I should use an analogy here.

Imagine a game with an infinite number of chess games being played by an infinite number of players.
Observing this game is a being who know every possible move and every possible result of the move therefore he can predict every game accurately from start to finish. We'll call him the chess master.
No move can really take this person by surprise. He would know it and know all of it's consequence. This however does not mean the games are fixed nor does it take away the freewill of the chess players because they are still making their moves by themselves but at any time the Chess Master looks at any game, he can accurately tell how it will end.
If the chess master chooses, he can tell someone to change a particular move and thereby bring the game to an alternate outcome through a series of succeeding moves following.

This changes nothing.
For instance, does the master know ahead of time he's going to tell the player to change his move?
Does the master know precisely which moves are going to be taken by the players as well?

inurmind:

I guess I'll have to simplify this:
Lets say we are classmates in primary school. Ur dad travelled to america when ur mom was pregnant for u. Therefore u have not actually seen him before.
Lets also imagine we are in the early ninties were letters were the most convienient and accessible ways of communicating.

In class u usually boast of how rich ur dad is in america, and how someday u are going to join him there.
U even show me the letters he writes to u, and how he writes that u should ask for whatever u want and he will give it to u.

Now as a local village kid with average reasoning abilities, I think to myself, ''well if his dad is so rich, why is he living a below average life like myself? why does he wear torn clothes like me whose dad is an average farmer? Why does he live in that mud hut and not in those big houses like the whites?
Does he really have a dad or did his mum just tell him that to cover up the shame of him being a bastard? Was she the one forging those letters?

And so to satisfy my curiosity I go meet u and ask: if ur dad is so rich, let him send u a dollar, a symbol that he actually is in america?
Now if u really do believe that he is in america, u will simply write that he send it to u.
But if u like me are also having doubts, u will agressively rain excuses on me, one of which is that ur father is not subject to appeasing me.
But can't u see, ur father says u should ask for whatever u want from him and he will give u.
He did not give any limitations or exceptions when saying that, so why can't u ask for a mere dollar?

Thinking about it, this scenario could be used in asking christians a lot of questions.

Anyway for now please answer the one I've asked.

Nice analogy but then it is still ultimately my dad's decision whether to send the dollar or not.

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 1 John 5:14


As I said, the same answer still applies to the same question whichever way you try to twist it.

wiegraf:

This changes nothing.
For instance, does the master know ahead of time he's going to tell the player to change his move?

Did you know that you were going to type this question before you typed it?

Does the master know precisely which moves are going to be taken by the players as well?

What part of predicting the end of the game did you not understand?

Your tricks border on being silly

Mr_Anony:
Did you know that you were going to type this question before you typed it?

No. I may have planned to, but any number of unforeseen events could have happened and prevented it

Mr_Anony:
What part of predicting the end of the game did you not understand?

There is a very, very clear difference between predicting what is going to happen and knowing exactly, with full certainty, what is going to happen. So answer the question.

Mr_Anony:
Nice analogy but then it is still ultimately my dad's decision whether to send the dollar or not.

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 1 John 5:14


As I said, the same answer still applies to the same question whichever way you try to twist it.

But where in the bible did god say he did not wish to prove himself through supernatural means?As there are countless passages in the bible where god did that.
So why should it be such a problem to him?
Or did he tell u personally?
Besides, I doubt if u've even asked him if he wished to do it.(u're probably too busy doubting his existence).
So how do u know he doesn't want to?
Let the big guy speak for himself, will u?
Don't put words into his mouth, if he has one.
Anyway I guess thats the point of the whole thing now isn't it?

But seriously, god never said it was against his will, so why the fright about the whole matter?

wiegraf: Your tricks border on being silly

tricks?

wiegraf: No. I may have planned to, but any number of unforeseen events could have happened and prevented it

That's the thing, an omniscient being doesn't have the problem of "unforseen events" he has seen how all possible outcomes play out.

There is a very, very clear difference between predicting what is going to happen and knowing exactly, with full certainty, what is going to happen. So answer the question.

I'd like to see how you can consistently predict something accurately and yet not know it.

inurmind:

But where in the bible did god say he did not wish to prove himself through supernatural means?As there are countless passages in the bible where god did that.
So why should it be such a problem to him?
Or did he tell u personally?

Shifting goal posts now are we? I have not said that God won't or can't. i have only said that He will choose to when He wants.

Besides, I doubt if u've even asked him if he wished to do it.(u're probably too scared doubting his existence).
So how do u know he doesn't want to?

Making baseless assumptions and putting words in my mouth now? I did not say He doesn't want to. I said: He will if and when he chooses to.

Let the big guy speak for himself, will u?
Don't put words into his mouth, if he has one.
Anyway I guess thats the point of the whole thing now isn't it?

Baseless mockery.

But seriously, god never said it was against his will, so why the fright about the whole matter?

There is no fright in the matter. God is not a genie. He is not subject to man's whims.

Mr_Anony:
Shifting goal posts now are we? I have not said that God won't or can't. i have only said that He will choose to when He wants.


Making baseless assumptions and putting words in my mouth now? I did not say He doesn't want to. I said: He will if and when he chooses to.


Baseless mockery.


There is no fright in the matter. God is not a genie. He is not subject to man's whims.

There really is no difference between u and the others.
So much for all the praises u've been given.
U are just going round circles and I really hate that.

U claim god is the most powerful being there is.
Proving himself to a few nairaland atheists shouldn't be a big deal to him, right?
Besides, he has been proving himself to kings and warriors as written in the bible. Not only is this an easy job for him, its also a regular hobby of his.

Secondly, u are his child, he loves u and will do what u ask him to, as long as it is not against his will, right? Well I've just proven that it isn't.
Unless u want to ask him personally?

So u really don't have much of a case.
But please if u are going to reply atleast think of a better excuse.

Mr_Anony: tricks?

Yes, as if you're being honest then there's some pretty strong brainwashing interfering with your thinking, or you genuinely cannot see something so simple.

Mr_Anony:
That's the thing, an omniscient being doesn't have the problem of "unforseen events" he has seen how all possible outcomes play out.

And where did I dispute this? What does this have to do with anything, or are you purposely misdirecting?
All that matters is this: If I ask god to tell me exactly what am I going to be doing in exactly 5 minutes, can he tell me with complete certainty, 100%? Of course, this also asks, would he be 100% accurate?
Can I diverge from that path, or not?

Yes, nos, if you can please.

Mr_Anony:
I'd like to see how you can consistently predict something accurately and yet not know it.

I am not talking about predictions here, stop this. It's fairly annoying strawman or whatever you're doing. I am talking about certainties. Can he tell me with a hundred percent certainty what I will be doing? Would there be any chance of his being wrong? Simple yes/no would be good.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]
You have just made some faulty presumptions here.

I have never met any Christian who doesn't pray for God's will above his/her own.

uote]

Not true.
I have met and have heard many christians praying and saying to god, "I command you to do this, I command you to grant that."

Mr_Anony:
Nice analogy but then it is still ultimately my dad's decision whether to send the dollar or not.

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 1 John 5:14


As I said, the same answer still applies to the same question whichever way you try to twist it.

And does anyone know his will? That should be easy, after all, his will is written in the bible, is it not?
So why is he not acting according to the will set out in the bible?

inurmind:

There really is no difference between u and the others.
So much for all the praises u've been given.
U are just going round circles and I really hate that.

U claim god is the most powerful being there is.
Proving himself to a few nairaland atheists shouldn't be a big deal to him, right?
Besides, he has been proving himself to kings and warriors as written in the bible. Not only is this an easy job for him, its also a regular hobby of his.

Secondly, u are his child, he loves u and will do what u ask him to, as long as it is not against his will, right? Well I've just proven that it isn't.
Unless u want to ask him personally?

So u really don't have much of a case.
But please if u are going to reply atleast think of a better excuse.

Lol, I am not going round in circles. I have consistently given you the same answer to the same question all day. You are the one doing the gymnastics here. The fact that you don't like my response is your problem not mine.

wiegraf:

Yes, as if you're being honest then there's some pretty strong brainwashing interfering with your thinking, or you genuinely cannot see something so simple.

Of course anything that doesn't fit into your worldview is brainwashing.

And where did I dispute this? What does this have to do with anything, or are you purposely misdirecting?
All that matters is this: If I ask god to tell me exactly what am I going to be doing in exactly 5 minutes, can he tell me with complete certainty, 100%? Of course, this also asks, would he be 100% accurate?
Can I diverge from that path, or not? Yes, nos, if you can please.

The simple answer to this question is Yes....

-The more complex answer......but then by telling you, He would have interfered with the sequence of events and then it will lead to another of the possible outcomes.
Perhaps the best way to really test this is that you and a friend ask the Omniscient one what you will do in 5 mins. The omniscient one tells you what you will do (or rather what you intend to do) but he tells your friend both what you intend to do and what you will do now that He has told you.
You purposely make sure you change your plans and do something else then you ask your friend and your friend tells you what you have done. An omniscient being would be able to predict both accurately. Get the picture now.

I am not talking about predictions here, stop this. It's fairly annoying strawman or whatever you're doing. I am talking about certainties. Can he tell me with a hundred percent certainty what I will be doing? Would there be any chance of his being wrong? Simple yes/no would be good.

You are not talking about predictions yet you want a 100% accurate prediction (lol.....the things I see on Nairaland). Read my answer above.

Yes, He is able to tell you with a 100% certainty, No, there is no chance of Him being wrong.

plaetton: Not true.
I have met and have heard many christians praying and saying to god, "I command you to do this, I command you to grant that."

Wow, those are some interesting folks you've met, can you show me anywhere in the bible where christian are encouraged to pray like that?

plaetton:
And does anyone know his will? That should be easy, after all, his will is written in the bible, is it not?
So why is he not acting according to the will set out in the bible?

Now you have to show how He is acting against His will as set out in the bible. I'd like to see you do that.

Mr_Anony: Of course anything that doesn't fit into your worldview is brainwashing.



The simple answer to this question is Yes....

-The more complex answer......but then by telling you, He would have interfered with the sequence of events and then it will lead to another of the possible outcomes.
Perhaps the best way to really test this is that you and a friend ask the Omniscient one what you will do in 5 mins. The omniscient one tells you what you will do (or rather what you intend to do) but he tells your friend both what you intend to do and what you will do now that He has told you.
You purposely make sure you change your plans and do something else then you ask your friend and your friend tells you what you have done. An omniscient being would be able to predict both accurately. Get the picture now.

The bolded is brazenly contradictory. As an omniscient he should have known that he would interfere with the sequence of events before he actually did. He would also have known all possible outcomes, like you have been claiming, ahead of time. He would have known that I was going to ask him before he met me, and he would have known he would send me down whatever path, all before he met me. He cannot have any new thoughts, he must have known everything, including his own future thoughts. Else that would clearly mean he was not omniscient, as I would have made something he did not know about, a new choice.

A true omniscient by the definition you give below, would be able to tell me exactly what I would do, and nothing I could do would change the course of my actions. With or without the knowledge or my attempts to stop it. He tells me for instance I will fall of a cliff, regardless of whatever actions I take, one way or the other, I would fall of that cliff at the expected time. If I can change my fate, then that means he did not know which path I was going to take, he was just aware of all the possible paths. Again, basic stuff

So, again, by definition an omniscient being cannot learn any new thing, yes? Else that would mean he didn't know something, that's not very omniscient.

So which is it, can he tell you exactly what is going to happen under any condition or not? And would he be 100% accurate?

Mr_Anony:
You are not talking about predictions yet you want a 100% accurate prediction (lol.....the things I see on Nairaland). Read my answer above.

Yes, He is able to tell you with a 100% certainty, No, there is no chance of Him being wrong.

You implied above there is chance of him being wrong, hence the workaround of two friends just to make sure he's right.... For crying out loud...

Now, if this is your final answer, if there is no chance of him being wrong, then it would mean he does not have free will. It would mean he cannot have "new" thoughts. Every single thought he himself was going to make he would know ahead of time. No matter what he does he cannot change the course of his own actions. If he did change his projected path, he wouldn't be omniscient, as clearly he just learned something new, he made a choice he did not know he was going to make. So an omniscients path is already predetermined as well.

So, as all is his will, and every thing is predetrmined, explain to me how is it we have free will ourselves? We deviate from the path god already knows we will take, that would mean god is not omniscient, as he would have been wrong, yes? However, as we can't deviate, no matter what we try to do, then that is the very definition of determinism. So now, with these conditions and your definition, how do any of us, god included, possess free will if he's omniscient?


And you go around claiming you somehow have good logic...

Mr_Anony:
My friend, you have shown you verses of scripture that clearly point out that for a prayer to be valid, it must be according to God's will. Being unnecessarily irrational doesn't help your case.

The person that is actually unnecessarily irrational is you, you came up with all the crazy ideas you think you can to explain your mythical god absurdity away, now that you have been trapped you are trying to change the subject. . .The main issue of discussion is, you claim your god has a will and is in a loving relationship with christains, but the same will you keep talking about is outlined in the bible. . .If we are to go by what you are saying then as i have aforementioned it is your god's will that some of the christians he is in love with suffer terminal diseases for years, suffer stroke for many years, lose their sight, etc without helping them even though he can help them. . .What kind of loving relationship is that? Now I know you are going to come and tell me that when it comes to your god, love has a different meaning. .It doesn't mean love as we know it, it means something else. .keep on biting your long tail while trying to defend or rationalize aged long mythologies that weren't well thought out by the ancients that put them forth. . .

Mr_Anony:

There is no fright in the matter. God is not a genie. He is not subject to man's whims.

Will anony save his child when he is being attacked by a pit-bull? Yes he will. . .Why will anony do that? He will do it because he loves his child and will not want his child to be mauled by the dog and be deformed for life. . .Why does anony's god who is able to do all things continue to allow his children to be mauled and permanently disfigured by pit-bulls all the time even though anony keeps claiming he loves them?. . .What kind of useless parent does that?. .

Mr_Anony:
Wow, those are some interesting folks you've met, can you show me anywhere in the bible where christian are encouraged to pray like that?

Are you asking me? Ask your fellow christians. yes indeed. Christians are very interesting folks. You should meet some of them.
After all, all of you read from the same bible or smoke from the same opium pot, do you not?

Mr_Anony:


Now you have to show how He is acting against His will as set out in the bible. I'd like to see you do that.

Oh, that one is quite easy. He promised to answer prayers. So far, he has been a no-show in Nigeria.

Just two days ago in USA, he failed to save the lives of 20 innocent children from a suicidal young America terrorist.

Where is this omnipotent and omnipresent god when we need him.
Yet he exists, loves all, blesses all, protects all, I guess from his twin brother , the devil.

Every is going to start blaming the devil now, no one is going to question god for abdicating his responsibility to protect innocent children.

plaetton:

Oh, that one is quite easy. He promised to answer prayers. So far, he has been a no-show in Nigeria.

Just two days ago in USA, he failed to save the lives of 20 innocent children from a suicidal young America terrorist.

Jesus promises many times that he will answer the prayers of his children who he loves. For example, in Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Matthew 18:19
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them

From these verses we have seen some of anony's god's will. . .ask believe and it will be yours. . .lets wait for anony to come and tell us that the bible does not really mean what it says. . .

mazaje:

Jesus promises many times that he will answer the prayers of his children who he loves. For example, in Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Matthew 18:19
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them

From these verses we have seen some of anony's god's will. . .ask believe and it will be yours. . .lets wait for anony to come and tell us that the bible does not really mean what it says. . .

Anony is a classic. When the bible says A in plain english , he will tell you that you actually interpreting it as B, and that the bible actually meant C. And then to cap it all, he will give you an assignment to prove that A + B is not equal to C.
Lol. He is master juggler of facts.

plaetton:

Anony is a classic. When the bible says A in plain english , he will tell you that you actually interpreting it as B, and that the bible actually meant C. And then to cap it all, he will give you an assignment to prove that A + B is not equal to C.
Lol. He is master juggler of facts.

Perfect description of anony. . .

As I said you have a poor understanding of what it means to be omniscient.

wiegraf:

The bolded is brazenly contradictory. As an omniscient he should have known that he would interfere with the sequence of events before he actually did. He would also have known all possible outcomes, like you have been claiming, ahead of time. He would have known that I was going to ask him before he met me, and he would have known he would send me down whatever path, all before he met me. He cannot have any new thoughts, he must have known everything, including his own future thoughts. Else that would clearly mean he was not omniscient, as I would have made something he did not know about, a new choice.

No is not in anyway contradictory. Yes he would know what you were going to ask before you ask, he would know exactly what you were going to do after he interferes he would know whether you would still go ahead and do what you wanted to do or whether you would change your mind and do something else but since he won't deny you of your free will. Yes he cannot gain knowledge he knows all possible outcomes.

The problem I believe you have is that you sort of view life like a scripted movie where events can only happen in one fixed manner and an omniscient being would be someone who has watched the movie before. Is this your view on reality?

If this is your view on reality then you do not have free will. But if you have freewill, then my description of omniscience fits perfectly.

A true omniscient by the definition you give below, would be able to tell me exactly what I would do, and nothing I could do would change the course of my actions. With or without the knowledge or my attempts to stop it. He tells me for instance I will fall of a cliff, regardless of whatever actions I take, one way or the other, I would fall of that cliff at the expected time. If I can change my fate, then that means he did not know which path I was going to take, he was just aware of all the possible paths. Again, basic stuff

This would mean that you don't have freewill because here you are insisting that there is only one possible outcome of events and an omniscient being is one that knows this singular outcome. That is not the description I gave.

So, again, by definition an omniscient being cannot learn any new thing, yes? Else that would mean he didn't know something, that's not very omniscient.

this is true but then again it would also imply that an omniscient being cannot be temporal but must transcend time.

So which is it, can he tell you exactly what is going to happen under any condition or not? And would he be 100% accurate?

As I have said, if you insist on using "under any condition" then you are implying that the future is fixed and therefore there can only be one possible outcome. So once again, my answer is Yes, since he knows all possible outcomes, if it so happens that there is only one possible outcome then it follows that he will know that too.

You implied above there is chance of him being wrong, hence the workaround of two friends just to make sure he's right.... For crying out loud...

No I didn't. the need for a friend is so that you can crosscheck that he predicted your actions accurately unless you hold that the future has only one fixed outcome, in that case you wouldn't need a friend because the singular future will just happen to you anyway.

Now, if this is your final answer, if there is no chance of him being wrong, then it would mean he does not have free will. It would mean he cannot have "new" thoughts. Every single thought he himself was going to make he would know ahead of time. No matter what he does he cannot change the course of his own actions. If he did change his projected path, he wouldn't be omniscient, as clearly he just learned something new, he made a choice he did not know he was going to make. So an omniscients path is already predetermined as well.

The reason why you are having this problem is because you by nature are a temporal being so the future is not known to you and therefore you only have one choice out of many and you cannot know the outcome of your choice before you make it.
An omniscient being is not temporal but can act temporally, so he doesn't share your problem. An omniscient being would have a multidimensional reality and so time for such a being would not be a fixed set of events but him in multiple simultaneous events.

So, as all is his will, and every thing is predetrmined, explain to me how is it we have free will ourselves?

Nope God has a separate will from us but because he knows you completely, He knows what you will do next. This doesn't mean you are not the one making your decisions. It is just like saying that because someone has the ability to read your mind therefore your thinking is not yours. It doesn't follow.

We deviate from the path god already knows we will take, that would mean god is not omniscient, as he would have been wrong, yes? However, as we can't deviate, no matter what we try to do, then that is the very definition of determinism. So now, with these conditions and your definition, how do any of us, god included, possess free will if he's omniscient?

I think you have to come clean and say what you think the future is like. Is it a fixed sequence or does it vary depending on what precedes it? So far you have been swinging between both veiws. You can't have it both ways.

And you go around claiming you somehow have good logic...

This is not worth my response

mazaje:

Jesus promises many times that he will answer the prayers of his children who he loves. For example, in Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Matthew 18:19
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them

From these verses we have seen some of anony's god's will. . .ask believe and it will be yours. . .lets wait for anony to come and tell us that the bible does not really mean what it says. . .

Scroll up a few posts and you will come across the verses you have conveniently decided to ignore.

You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. John 14:13


This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 1 John 5:14

You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. James 4:3


Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow.
For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.
Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” James 4:13-16

Why are you being so dishonest?


@plaetton, the above verses also answer your question.

Mr_Anony:
Perhaps I should use an analogy here.

Imagine a game with an infinite number of chess games being played by an infinite number of players.
Observing this game is a being who know every possible move and every possible result of the move therefore he can predict every game accurately from start to finish. We'll call him the chess master.
No move can really take this person by surprise. He would know it and know all of it's consequence. This however does not mean the games are fixed nor does it take away the freewill of the chess players because they are still making their moves by themselves but at any time the Chess Master looks at any game, he can accurately tell how it will end.
If the chess master chooses, he can tell someone to change a particular move and thereby bring the game to an alternate outcome through a series of succeeding moves following.

Of what use is this chess master to the chess players?

Mr_Anony:
Lol, I am not going round in circles. I have consistently given you the same answer to the same question all day. You are the one doing the gymnastics here. The fact that you don't like my response is your problem not mine.

You are not going round in circles. That would be very easy. You are slimming, zig-zaging, and dancing like a headless chicken. You are not sure of yourself nor of your god. You dodge simple questions and falsely accuse people when cornered. You are a correct christian.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, I am not going round in circles. I have consistently given you the same answer to the same question all day. You are the one doing the gymnastics here. The fact that you don't like my response is your problem not mine.

#Visits thread after watching courage the cowardly dog, nearly gets annoyed, then a light bulb pops up, smiles#

Oh I love ur responses, I just wasn't patient enough to understand them. I had been thinking like a child ever since but now I have come to a realization.

Do not worry, no more arguments after this.
U know why? Because the game has been played, the trophy has been given, the loser has been beaten.
I have won this game Mr anony, but I have been so naive waiting for u to accept that. Ofcourse u can't do that, u have such a big ego to hold on to, the hope of the nairaland christians rest on ur shoulders. Ofcourse it is impossible for u to accept defeat, just as impossible for the pope or the queen to declare their non-belief in god.
And so, being a wise man u have consistently given poor excuses, and although I have continually flawed them, u have maintained those excuses, thereby giving them the appearance of strength and solidity.

But ofcourse I am no less wiser than u.
So never mind, my faithless atheist.
We shall call it a day.
Hopfully, we will live to fight another day.
But even more hopfully, u will live to confess that god no dey.
Have a great day!

#whistles away ''everyone considered him the coward of the county''#

Mr_Anony:
Scroll up a few posts and you will come across the verses you have conveniently decided to ignore.

You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. John 14:13


This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 1 John 5:14

You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. James 4:3


Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow.
For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.
Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” James 4:13-16

Why are you being so dishonest?

The person that is being dishonest is you. . .The verses I quoted are also from the bible, no?. . .They are the words of Jesus himself and they are very clear. . .NON of the verses you quoted that talks about god's will are from Jesus himself. . .They are from his followers. . .When Jesus spoke he was very clear if you believe and you ask he will ALWAYS answer. . .From Jesus according to the bible. . .

Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

This verse is very clear, it speaks about your god's will and what he will do when people ask of him since these are the words of Jesus himself. . .It says if a son ask for bread will his dad give him a stone?. . .If he ask for fish will he give him a serpent?. . .It says if people who are evil give good things to their children what more about the father who is in heaven that will give good things to those who ask of him. . .Do YOU truly believe in this verse? If yes then why are you arguing and talking aimlessly about some elusive god's will when it is very CLEARLY stated in this verse?. . .

Is your god's will good or bad for his children seems you claim to speak for your god?. . .What stops your god from healing his children who he loves from cancer?. . .What stops him from healing his children that are paralysed? What is asking amiss when you ask for healing from terminal diseases that is causing you pain and making you suffer?. . .

Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Do you really believe in the bible? If you do then why are you arguing against what it says?. . .

Anony here is one of your god's will from the bible. . .

For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Jeremiah 29:11

Mr_Anony: As I said you have a poor understanding of what it means to be omniscient.


No is not in anyway contradictory. Yes he would know what you were going to ask before you ask, he would know exactly what you were going to do after he interferes he would know whether you would still go ahead and do what you wanted to do or whether you would change your mind and do something else but since he won't deny you of your free will. Yes he cannot gain knowledge he knows all possible outcomes.

I am still trying to ascertain, the usefulness of such a being.

Mr_Anony:
Scroll up a few posts and you will come across the verses you have conveniently decided to ignore.

You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. John 14:13


This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 1 John 5:14

You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. James 4:3


Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow.
For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.
Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” James 4:13-16

Why are you being so dishonest?


@plaetton, the above verses also answer your question.

If god's answer to a prayer is on the condition that the prayer be according to his will, of what use thus is the prayer? You know that his will will be done whether you pray or not. Then why pray?

Incredible. You never cease to amaze me. The levels of honesty here are again at that nadir that only you seem capable of reaching. Or you may actually done yourself proud and reached new depths. You level so many silly little accusation against me then end it with a show of indignation. It beggars belief


Now, we're doing this to determine your definition of omniscience, not mine. My world view is not in question here, how you arrived at the conclusion that my world view is relevant would be beyond any sane man's comprehension abilities.

Mr_Anony: As I said you have a poor understanding of what it means to be omniscient.

Dictionary definition of omniscience

www.google.com/search?client=ms-opera-mini&channel=new&redir_esc=&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=omNiscience+definition

1. Knowing everything

Wiki definition of omniscience

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience

"Omniscience ( /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/[1]), mainly in
religion, is the capacity to know everything that
there is to know."

(Note, you don't even have to go far down that page to see xtian philosophers already redefining the term to accommodate free will, and other xtians fully accepting predestination. Yet you somehow fail to see where the problem, or are at least trying to hide it)

Now, note again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with my understanding what omniscience is, what I don't understand is the anonyverse definition you give which you try to pass off as logical. It is not, in any way, shape or form. So trying to make it sound like I don't know what standard omniscience is, while you somehow have some sort of superior, truer understanding of the word, is a bit irritating and of course, dishonest. Moving on...

Mr_Anony:
No is not in anyway contradictory. Yes he would know what you were going to ask before you ask, he would know exactly what you were going to do after he interferes he would know whether you would still go ahead and do what you wanted to do or whether you would change your mind and do something else but since he won't deny you of your free will. Yes he cannot gain knowledge he knows all possible outcomes.

This is a bit of a ramble actually, maybe with better punctuation I will get it. But from what I can tell, you have just said he knows with absolute certainty what is going to happen in the future. Yes?

Again, this is very, very, very simple. Your supposed free will or not, his supposed free will or not, so long as he knows with absolute certainty what you are going to do, and neither of you can change that choice, that is the very definition of predestination. There is only one future that can actually take place. This is the conclusion of your assertion, not mine, from the descriptions you've given. The description that he cannot, under any circumstances, be wrong. How you want to turn this around and put this on me is beyond me.

Mr_Anony:
The problem I believe you have is that you sort of view life like a scripted movie where events can only happen in one fixed manner and an omniscient being would be someone who has watched the movie before. Is this your view on reality?

If this is your view on reality then you do not have free will. But if you have freewill, then my description of omniscience fits perfectly.

See above. Then explain to me how this response to the question posed about being his being completely accurate and incapable of being wrong does not translate to a pre-written script

"Yes, He is able to tell you with a 100%
certainty, No, there is no chance of Him
being wrong."

So long as he knows exactly what you are going to do, and no matter what either of you do, no matter what new knowledge you may gain (and note, he himself cannot gain new knowledge), you will follow the script, how in the world can you call that free will?

Mr_Anony:
This would mean that you don't have freewill because here you are insisting that there is only one possible outcome of events and an omniscient being is one that knows this singular outcome. That is not the description I gave.

Again, above

Mr_Anony:
this is true but then again it would also imply that an omniscient being cannot be temporal but must transcend time.

I'm not sure how came to this conclusion. But regardless, whether he can time travel or not is irrelevant. All that matters is; does he know everything? Your response of 'yes'
is all that's needed to void free will.

Mr_Anony:
As I have said, if you insist on using "under any condition" then you are implying that the future is fixed and therefore there can only be one possible outcome. So once again, my answer is Yes, since he knows all possible outcomes, if it so happens that there is only one possible outcome then it follows that he will know that too.

Again, blatant dishonesty. I asked you would he know the answer in any possible condition, your response was an unequivocal 'yes'.

So again, WTF? This is your conclusion

Mr_Anony:
No I didn't. the need for a friend is so that you can crosscheck that he predicted your actions accurately unless you hold that the future has only one fixed outcome, in that case you wouldn't need a friend because the singular future will just happen to you anyway.

Wt heck does this mean? You need a friend to verify? This is simple, is he never wrong? Your answer is yes? The friend or no friend or orgy or not, all is irrelevant. All that matters is as he can never be wrong, whatever he tells you, whatever path you follow, you cannot deviate from his conclusions. No matter what either of you do.

Again, your conclusion, not mine.

Mr_Anony:
The reason why you are having this problem is because you by nature are a temporal being so the future is not known to you and therefore you only have one choice out of many and you cannot know the outcome of your choice before you make it.
An omniscient being is not temporal but can act temporally, so he doesn't share your problem. An omniscient being would have a multidimensional reality and so time for such a being would not be a fixed set of events but him in multiple simultaneous events.

How is an omniscient being not temporal? What do they have to do with each other except for the fact that an omniscient can tell you (note, not predict) what's going to happen? What you mean to say is your god is not temporal. Fine, but like above, this matters not. All that matters is 'does he know everything?'

Mr_Anony:
Nope God has a separate will from us but because he knows you completely, He knows what you will do next. This doesn't mean you are not the one making your decisions. It is just like saying that because someone has the ability to read your mind therefore your thinking is not yours. It doesn't follow.

Are you changing your definition of omniscience to his not knowing the choice you will make, just the list of choices available to you, yes or no? If not, this is again irrelevant and really why are you wasting time? So long as he knows what choice you are going to make with absolute certainty, you cannot deviate from the path no matter what you may do, thus you obviously don't have free will.

Mr_Anony:
I think you have to come clean and say what you think the future is like. Is it a fixed sequence or does it vary depending on what precedes it? So far you have been swinging between both veiws. You can't have it both ways.

I have to come clean for what ffs?! 4k. We're talking about your view here, which I assume you would claim is the official xtian one (though just about everyone here seems to dispute that). You accuse me of swinging both views, ffs that is what you are doing.
un4king-believable

Mr_Anony:
This is not worth my response

Oh, the shame! The horror! Really... You claim to be actaully logical...

inurmind:

#Visits thread after watching courage the cowardly dog, nearly gets annoyed, then a light bulb pops up, smiles#

Oh I love ur responses, I just wasn't patient enough to understand them. I had been thinking like a child ever since but now I have come to a realization.

Do not worry, no more arguments after this.
U know why? Because the game has been played, the trophy has been given, the loser has been beaten.
I have won this game Mr anony, but I have been so naive waiting for u to accept that. Ofcourse u can't do that, u have such a big ego to hold on to, the hope of the nairaland christians rest on ur shoulders. Ofcourse it is impossible for u to accept defeat, just as impossible for the pope or the queen to declare their non-belief in god.
And so, being a wise man u have consistently given poor excuses, and although I have continually flawed them, u have maintained those excuses, thereby giving them the appearance of strength and solidity.

But ofcourse I am no less wiser than u.
So never mind, my faithless atheist.
We shall call it a day.
Hopfully, we will live to fight another day.
But even more hopfully, u will live to confess that god no dey.
Have a great day!

#whistles away ''everyone considered him the coward of the county''#

Ah the same age old tradition of "I haven't made a point so I'll just declare victory and walk away". The longer wordier version of Logicboy's premature "debunkeds and epic fails". Anyway suit yourself my friend. Whatever makes you happy.