Mr_Anony:
As I said, you are running on faulty presumptions. I repeat: I have never met any Christian who doesn't pray for God's will above his/her own!
Secondly, how do you know that they know that they will die? have you recently picked up mind reading as a hobby?

As I said, a Christian wants to live to declare the glory of God and win more into the kingdom, and we also want to see His face so if He says "Come back home my son, you have finished your race." With great joy we will return to Him and if He grants us longer life on earth, we will use that time to continue to proclaim His Goodness. It is all about His will and not ours. Our purpose is to do the will of our Father.

Lol, you are still carrying on assuming that we are afraid of death. No we are not. The reason why you can't understand it is because your heart is by nature selfish so you expect a christian to want to die once he/she has been saved because that is the kind of thing you would do.

Praying that God gives us long life is not because we are scared of death. If God wills it we will live long and proclaim His glory and if He wills that we come home to Him, then we will go rejoicing. It is all about God not us.

Show me one Christian from the bible who begged for his/her life when faced with death. Also show me one Christian from the bible who prayed for a speedy and painless death. There are none! But I can show you from scripture a good number of Christians who submitted their lives to God even on to the point of death. I wonder from whence you invented these "christians" you are talking about.

Lol, of course mazaje knows this for sure because only last week mazaje held a gun to anony's head and witnessed him crying to God to save his life.

Mr_Anony:
I'm afraid I don't understand what you said here. Care to expand on it or rephrase it.

Mr_Anony:
As I said, you are running on faulty presumptions. I repeat: I have never met any Christian who doesn't pray for God's will above his/her own!
Secondly, how do you know that they know that they will die? have you recently picked up mind reading as a hobby?


As I said, a Christian wants to live to declare the glory of God and win more into the kingdom, and we also want to see His face so if He says "Come back home my son, you have finished your race." With great joy we will return to Him and if He grants us longer life on earth, we will use that time to continue to proclaim His Goodness. It is all about His will and not ours. Our purpose is to do the will of our Father.



Lol, you are still carrying on assuming that we are afraid of death. No we are not. The reason why you can't understand it is because your heart is by nature selfish so you expect a christian to want to die once he/she has been saved because that is the kind of thing you would do.

Praying that God gives us long life is not because we are scared of death. If God wills it we will live long and proclaim His glory and if He wills that we come home to Him, then we will go rejoicing. It is all about God not us.

Show me one Christian from the bible who begged for his/her life when faced with death. Also show me one Christian from the bible who prayed for a speedy and painless death. There are none! But I can show you from scripture a good number of Christians who submitted their lives to God even on to the point of death. I wonder from whence you invented these "christians" you are talking about.


Lol, of course mazaje knows this for sure because only last week mazaje held a gun to anony's head and witnessed him crying to God to save his life.

2good:

You're completely making no sense. Try to be atleast 20% rational in your response. I know that religion makes even the best educated man to throw away logic just to defend their blind faith but yours is really to the extreme.

inurmind:

I will be most delighted to my good sir anonymous. (I hope u understand what I've been saying so far?).

Have u by any chance visited this thread:

https://www.nairaland.com/1119106/two-days-left-christians-praying

mazaje:

I repeat I am not. What you have boldly stated is nothing buy rhetoric. Christians say many things but never do it in REALITY. I have many first hand experience, my aunt who is an end of day enthusiast, recently died of breast cancer, even when every body knew she was going to die, she and all those around her were busy carrying her from one prayer house to another for a miracle so that she can live instead of praying for her to die a fast a painless death so that she can go and be with her sweet Jesus. . .We see this things happening all the time and all round us. . .I have seen christians at various times that are faced with death cry and pray for mercy, i was once involved in an accident that claimed the lives of some of the people we were travelling with and they were all shouting Jesus, Jesus in essence they were calling on him to save their lives. . .We see these things happen all the time, christians do NOT pray for a fast and painless death when they are facing death instead they always pray for mercy to live. . .If you deny that fact then I know that you are just hear to argue aimlessly. . .



And when did any god ever appear to any christian telling him to come back my son you have finished your race?. . .I don't have time for such mythical talks, i only deal with reality and the reality is that no matter how sick christians are when they are faced with death they ALWAYS pray to their god to heal them and make them live despite their shameless claim of wanting to go and be with their god. . .The claim that christians want to live and decleare the glory of their god is a baseless claim when faced with death they cry and beg for to live. . .



Firstly christians are not saved from anything. . .According to muslims they are saved as well, no?. . .The fact that NO christian that is faced with death that i know has ever prayed for the death to come quickly but prayed to live says you do not even know what you are talking about. . .If you are faced with death and window to live is offered you, I KNOW you will chose to live despite you ridiculous mythical claims and belief in an after life that is much better than the life you are living. . .Christians have clearly demonstrated that they do not truly believe in the after life because you can not claim you arenot afraid of death but when you face it you cry and beg for mercy and chose life. . .



You are clearly lying and you do not know what you are talking about. . .Praying for long life means you do not want to die simple. . .If it is all about your god's will then why do you christians all over the world pray for healing when faced with terminal illnesses?. . .The fact that their fatherly god whom they claim is in a personal relationship with them sits and allows the terminal illness infect them shows that it is his will for them. why don't they just sit back and pray for a speedy and painless death instead of running form one prayer house or hospital to another seeking for sure over something that will eventually kill them?. . .You are just typing because you want to write something because your arguments are just pointless. . .



You have started with this shenanigans of yours. . .What business do I have with the mostly mythical characters of the bible that may or may not have existed?. . .I am talking about the christians around me and you are trying to draw me to your turf of mythology and legendary characters who might or might not have existed?. . .I am talking about reality and the christians we see around. Which of the biblical christians have you ever meet in your life?. . .NON I know or have ever heard of has ever prayed for a speedy death when faced with death. All pray for life when faced with death. Even you, if you are faced with death you will chose life if you are offered the opportunity. . .




I don't believe in god but I hope you die tomorrow so that you can go to heaven and be with Jesus and the angles for all eternity. . .Say amen to it. . .

2good:

You're completely making no sense. Try to be atleast 20% rational in your response. I know that religion makes even the best educated man to throw away logic just to defend their blind faith but yours is really to the extreme.

Mr_Anony:

......Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’
and,
‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ”

Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ”

Matthew 4:5-7

inurmind:


lol!
That's the only verse u have to defend cowardice.
I have tons to defend me, especially the contest on mount camel: let ur god prove he is superior to those play things villagers worship.

Besides, have u ever bothered to ask yourself why jesus said that?
I mean, even if he dived and angels caught him, what victory would it give to the devil?
How is that even a temptation?
Seems more like a test?
And yeah, they are different.

Mr_Anony:
Well I am not surprised. The devil did this "if you are a child of God" test many centuries ago (and surprise surprise, he quoted scripture to back it up too) so what you are trying to do is nothing new. God is not subject to your whims.

Mr_Anony:
Yawn....of course once again as usual your argument boils down to. "I don't agree with you, therefore you are lying".....nothing new here.

mazaje:

Actually you have clearly shown that you replies were just made not to adress anything in a meaningful way just just because you wanted to say something regardles of how meaningless it was. . .

mazaje:

The same god was subject to elijah's whims, no?. . .Same god was all over the place fighting along side humans and addressing them through public speech in the pages of story books, no?. . .Even today we have christians that claim they summon god at will and he comes and speaks to them eg pastor Adeboye of redeem. . . .

Logicboy03: Why does Anony feel guilty?

mazaje:

The same god was subject to elijah's whims, no?. . .Same god was all over the place fighting along side humans and addressing them through public speech in the pages of story books, no?. . .Even today we have christians that claim they summon god at will and he comes and speaks to them eg pastor Adeboye of redeem. . . .

Mr_Anony:

All you have to do now is show us from the bible one instance where Elijah or anyone else forced God to do something against His will, failure to do this will tell us all that you are lying.

wiegraf:

Not strictly related, but I wonder if any xtians have been able to, via prayer or whatever means, change the mind of an omniscient being?

Mr_Anony:
keep wondering

wiegraf:
Cold anony is cold...

Ok, wondering....
Wondering....
Wondering....
Alas, I haven't been able to come up with a solution. So now I am asking you if you know any xtians who have via prayer or otherwise changed the mind of your omniscient god? Is it possible to do so?

Mr_Anony:
The first thing you need to understand is what prayer is and what omniscience is.

First: Omniscience means all-knowing and not all-doing. Nothing about omniscience implies a fixed future run of events. You may consider omniscience as the ability to know all possible outcomes of an event and all the permutations and combinations of all possible events.

Secondly: Prayer is talking to God the same way a child talks to his father. It is not some sort of magical incantation to control the universe. It is sometimes pleading with the owner of the universe to grant you a favour and if He wills it, He may answer "Yes", "No" or "Not yet" or "Do x instead" all according to His will. Since He knows all things, He will never make the wrong decision.

I don't know of any Christian who prays against God's will.

Mr_Anony:
Well I am not surprised. The devil did this "if you are a child of God" test many centuries ago (and surprise surprise, he quoted scripture to back it up too) so what you are trying to do is nothing new. God is not subject to your whims.

Logicboy03:




Ah, so now when someone prays to be healed of a terminal disease (meaning that he is trying to avoid the all the possible outcomes in which he dies) isnt that clearly showing that the person is trying to change God's will?

inurmind:


U didn't answer my latter questions of what the devil will be gaining and what god will be losing by passing the test.
Unless u think he will fail it ofcourse

Mr_Anony:
If God can heal a terminal disease easily (in other words, all possible outcomes don't result in death), how then do you come to the conclusion that a terminal disease means that it is God's will that the sufferer dies?

wiegraf:

Not strictly related, but I wonder if any xtians have been able to, via prayer or whatever means, change the mind of an omniscient being?[/quote

2 Kings 20[quote author=Mr_Anony]
If God can heal a terminal disease easily (in other words, all possible outcomes don't result in death), how then do you come to the conclusion that a terminal disease means that it is God's will that the sufferer dies?

In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, “This is what the Lord says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover.”

2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord, 3 “Remember, Lord, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

4 Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him: 5 “Go back and tell Hezekiah, the ruler of my people, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the Lord. 6 I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.’”

Mr_Anony:
If God can heal a terminal disease easily (in other words, all possible outcomes don't result in death), how then do you come to the conclusion that a terminal disease means that it is God's will that the sufferer dies?

39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

Logicboy03:


You started your sentence with "if". An assumption not based on reality.


I used a terminal disease, so that I could trap you into making the false assumption that God can heal terminal diseases.


A smarter apologist would have avoided using such a failed argument because the main issue here is not the terminal disease, the issue here is a fixed outcome. I could replace "terminal disease" with "falling from a skyscraper or plane without a parachute" to show that death is inevitable.

Mr_Anony:
Perhaps you should ask the devil what he hoped to gain by asking the question in the first place.....or maybe you can tell me what the devil hoped to gain.

Mr_Anony:
How do you think? the word "If" as used here is not a "maybe" I was simply presenting my argument in a logical way so that you could follow it (sadly you didn't)

Compare with this argument: "if 1+2=3 then where x=2, x+1=3." x by definition here is =2 therefore x+1 can only be 3. If x on the other hand is not equal to 2, then x+1 won't be equal to 3.

Now by definition, God can heal every disease therefore insinuating that a "terminal disease" is impossible for God to reverse is a terrible logical blunder unless you are referring to some other entity other than God. Even "falling from a skyscraper" or "skydiving without a parachute" are equally easily reversible by God.

The Time of Useful Consciousness is a function of altitude. At 20,000 feet, an average individual will have 5 to 12 minutes. At 25,000 feet, this time is reduced to 3 to 5 minutes. At 30,000 feet only 1 to 2 minutes are available. By 40,000 feet, the average individual will have only 9 to 15 seconds (basically this represents the oxygen that was in their system before the exposure to 40,000 feet).

musKeeto: If all possible outcomes don't result in death, then what's the point of prayer? You should really stop stepping into the shoes of God. You keep burning yourself.

musKeeto: Was Jesus fully aware of God's will?

inurmind:


I can tell u what I hope to gain by testing ur faith: proving the non-existence of ur god, or perhaps, proving ur own atheistic tendencies by ur fear to even try to confirm his existence.

Logicboy03:


We know basic maths

1+2 = 3

The above addition is a known outcome and fact unlike God doing some miraculous magic- which is not a provable fact or known outcome. We dont need to qualify the addition with "if". You have to qualify your God's action with "if" because it is not a provable fact.



Back to the main point.

Imagine falling from 30,000 feet with nothing. No matter how hard you pray, you are dead.


Praying would be asking for god to change his will in the inevitable outcome that you are going to die. God intelligently (or foolishly) designed the atmosphere to contain less osygen at certain alititudes. He would be negating his design and every possible outcome to save one from that predicament.



#debunked

Mr_Anony:
The first thing you need to understand is what prayer is and what omniscience is.

First: Omniscience means all-knowing and not all-doing. Nothing about omniscience implies a fixed future run of events. You may consider omniscience as the ability to know all possible outcomes of an event and all the permutations and combinations of all possible events.

Mr_Anony:
Secondly: Prayer is talking to God the same way a child talks to his father. It is not some sort of magical incantation to control the universe. It is sometimes pleading with the owner of the universe to grant you a favour and if He wills it, He may answer "Yes", "No" or "Not yet" or "Do x instead" all according to His will. Since He knows all things, He will never make the wrong decision.

Mr_Anony:
I don't know of any Christian who prays against God's will.