Must everytin on NL be focused on igbo? U guys are nauseating.....if u have notin reasonable to talk abt beta keep ur daft post in ur pocket......and who told the first poster that igbo people dont marry for love back in d days? Beta use ur family experiences as case study and stop making empty generalisation..

401kk:

I think you're totally missing some important points.
Homosexuality (the idea or practice of a person being involved in a sexual or romantic relationship with a person of the same sex) is an ABOMINATION in Igbo land. Yes, Igbo culture has evolved over the years to fit in with adopted culture but that does not necessarily mean we've lost all inherited traditions, moral codes etc.

The act of refusing to worship the gods of our ancestors,accepting the gods of other people, burning down the places of worship of the gods of your ancestors,allowing twins to live,terming most of the ancient practices of your ancestors as evil,while you embrace alien practices,etc,is equally abomination in igboland,if you have partaken in any of these abominations,then you have no moral right talking about what is,and what is not abomination as such attempt will lead to hypocrisy.

401kk:

I think you're totally missing some important points.
Homosexuality (the idea or practice of a person being involved in a sexual or romantic relationship with a person of the same sex) is an ABOMINATION in Igbo land. Yes, Igbo culture has evolved over the years to fit in with adopted culture but that does not necessarily mean we've lost all inherited traditions, moral codes etc.

Igbo culture never evolved,igbo culture was abandoned by igbos for an alien culture,read things fall apart and put yourself in okonkwo's shoe,there can't be a culture without a religion. You can't be worshiping a jewish god,while the gods of your fathers die of neglect,and you still talk of igbo culture. It just doesn't make sense.

Interesting perspective coming from Eze OnlyTruth this vexed issue of same sex marriage.

Firstly, I think OnluTruth was mostly correct as per traditional rationale for marriages in Igboland, and that is procreation. But I disagree that love 'defined by OnlyTruth' as physical/canal attraction has less to do with it. If physical/canal attraction equates to love, certainly a man will be attracted to that beautiful strong woman, who appears able to bear children; attracted to the point of summoning enough courage to approach the ladies parent. On the other hand, the woman will also be attracted enough to the man to say 'yes.' It on this basic definition of 'love' that I draw my conclusion that even in primordial Igbo (Nnewi) culture, love exist and play significant role in choice of female/male partner!

I believe, same law of attraction applies in the Western world, although method of consummation may differ.

But I strongly disagree with OnlyTruth on the Anglican position on same sex marriage. The reason is very clear, the Church and the state are clearly delimited entities, and the Anglican Communion does NOT represent the Western World, they represent the Religious World and must constantly derive their authority from the text - Bible. And the Bible is very clear on what marriage is = a union between a man and a woman! Marriage is the reason a man leaves his home and cleaves to a woman, and the two become one.

Any and every other combination is an aberration, and must be viewed and interpreted a such. Homosexuality, aka sodomy is clearly frown upon by the Bible, which the Church derives it spiritual authority from. Leviticus 20:13 says If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 has another perspective on this. Now whether Catholic, Anglicans, or Protestants, the basic norms of Christianity must be upheld not upended regardless of what the civil or secular society thinks or says. To disregard the basic tenet of the Bible, is a recipe for destruction, and that explain why there is Church of England and Church of Nigeria in the Anglican communion.

My brother OnlyTruth, I like to conclude this by saying, that the Anglican Communion England have lost their moral and spiritual authority, they have lost their way and needs deliverance, I'll rather seek out the Long Juju of Arochukwu than a same-sex supporting church.

Btw, I sent you a mail @ hushmail!

fellis:
@first bolded, I don't want the laws of marriage to favour only the wife. I want the laws to favour both the husband and the wife. On the issue of child custody, both parents should have custody of the children. They both made sacrifices to train their children and they both conceived those children. Treating the woman as nothing but a baby making machine who cannot lay claims to anything in the house when she decides to leave, (not even her children) is part of the reason why so many sexist and discriminatory attitudes pervade our society today. These types of cultures is what leads men to believe that all women are beneath them and that women are commodities that can be bought and sold.
@second bolded, I didn't say the culture of the man owning the children is dead in Igbo land. I said the culture of the man having sole custody of the children after a divorce is dying off and I said this because more Nigerians/Igbos are embracing foreign cultures regarding marriage.
I also think that payment of bride price should be abolished; it is a very useless and destructive culture.



I have mentioned the reasons why prohibiting same sex marriage is not discriminatory in this thread. How did you miss it?
Homosexual behaviour is not a normal thing and legalizing same sex marriage would in a way, be encouraging this abnormal behaviour. If you see something that is abnormal that you cannot change, you try to tolerate it, you don't encourage it. Legalizing same sex marriage is approving and encouraging the abnormality that is homosexuality.
And I don't care what anyone says to the contrary; homosexuality is abnormal. The large intestine and anus evolved to work in the alimentary canal, they did not evolve as sëxual organs.

For a your position on this issue is a bit suprising. If i may ask,is the mouth meant for kissing,is the mouth meant for the penis,is the woman breast made for a man's mouth? Mind you,some heterosexuals equally engage in anal sex. I await your reply.

pazienza: The act of refusing to worship the gods of our ancestors,accepting the gods of other people, burning down the places of worship of the gods of your ancestors,allowing twins to live,terming most of the ancient practices of your ancestors as evil,while you embrace alien practices,etc,is equally abomination in igboland,if you have partaken in any of these abominations,then you have no moral right talking about what is,and what is not abomination as such attempt will lead to hypocrisy.

I don't think there's any tradition or culture that has not evolved, changed and amended to suite the needs, issues, developments and trends of various times in history.
Of course, it is an abomination to desecrate the shrine and name of the gods in Igboland but you have to admit it, these traditions and religions were not meant to last without necessary and unnecessary change(s) and amendments forever. However, you should note that some moral codes, traditions etc are still 'unbreachable' and highly respected notwithstanding these cultural changes. Homosexuality is currently one of them and it will be so until there is a total erosion of all igbo customs.

pazienza: For a your position on this issue is a bit suprising. If i may ask,is the mouth meant for kissing,is the mouth meant for the penis,is the woman breast made for a man's mouth? Mind you,some heterosexuals equally engage in anal sex. I await your reply.

A scientific reason for kissing has been postulated. Researchers have hypothesized that kissing evolved as a way for women to expose themselves to an infection called cytomegalovirus, if a woman develops the active cytomegalovirus while pregnant, there's a fifty percent chance she won't carry the baby to term. But if she gets exposed in incremental bits in the months leading up to her pregnancy, she can be inoculated from a full-on primary infection and have a safe delivery so the mouth could very well have evolved to serve this purpose.

Also, ana.l sex leads to rectal prolapse and permanent loosening of the ana.l sphincter.
MouthAction does not damage the mouth and neither does sucking of the brԐasts.
Homosexuality serves no purpose whatsoever.
Organisms do not evolve to carry out acts that lead to their extinction.

401kk:

I don't think there's any tradition or culture that has not evolved, changed and amended to suite the needs, issues, developments and trends of various times in history.
Of course, it is an abomination to desecrate the shrine and name of the gods in Igboland but you have to admit it, these traditions and religions were not meant to last without necessary and unnecessary change(s) and amendments forever. However, you should note that some moral codes, traditions etc are still 'unbreachable' and highly respected notwithstanding these cultural changes. Homosexuality is currently one of them and it will be so until there is a total erosion of all igbo customs.

You can't pick and choose,it's either all or nothing. In igboland i don't know of any moral injunction that precides one's duty to the gods and ancestors. Igbo culture didn't evolve,it was simply replaced. Igbo customs were injunctions from igbo deities,made known to us by messengers of these deities,you have no business talking about igbo customs if you no longer believe in or worship these deities.

fellis:

A scientific reason for kissing has been postulated. Researchers have hypothesized that kissing evolved as a way for women to expose themselves to an infection called cytomegalovirus, if a woman develops the active cytomegalovirus while pregnant, there's a fifty percent chance she won't carry the baby to term. But if she gets exposed in incremental bits in the months leading up to her pregnancy, she can be inoculated from a full-on primary infection and have a safe delivery so the mouth could very well have evolved to serve this purpose.

Also, ana.l sex leads to rectal prolapse and permanent loosening of the ana.l sphincter.
MouthAction does not damage the mouth and neither does sucking of the brԐasts.
Homosexuality serves no purpose whatsoever.
Organisms do not evolve to carry out acts that lead to their extinction.

Aha! Same scientists have made us to know that homosexuality exists amongst different species of animals,so it definitely serves a purpose,and we also know that ancient human populations like the native americans also had gays among them that had their duty in the society. Moreover you seem to have this flawed notion that homosexuality is equal to anal sex, there is more to homosexuality than anal sex.

pazienza: You can't pick and choose,it's either all or nothing. In igboland i don't know of any moral injunction that precides one's duty to the gods and ancestors. Igbo culture didn't evolve,it was simply replaced. Igbo customs were injunctions from igbo deities,made known to us by messengers of these deities,you have no business talking about igbo customs if you no longer believe in or worship these deities.

I didn't pick or choose anything. There are custodians of tradition (the ejiofors', the nzes' et al)to whom such responsibility is accorded.

And you must be kidding me,if you believe that people do kiss today because of cytomegalo virus, kissing and MouthAction,we know can transmit some diseases,so why practice it? And i noticed that you carefully skipped the fact that increasing number of heterosexuals are engaging in anal sex. People should learn to live and let others live.

fellis:

I also think that payment of bride price should be abolished; it is a very useless and destructive culture.



I have mentioned the reasons why prohibiting same sex marriage is not discriminatory in this thread. How did you miss it?
Homosexual behaviour is not a normal thing and legalizing same sex marriage would in a way, be encouraging this abnormal behaviour. If you see something that is abnormal that you cannot change, you try to tolerate it, you don't encourage it. Legalizing same sex marriage is approving and encouraging the abnormality that is homosexuality.
And I don't care what anyone says to the contrary; homosexuality is abnormal. The large intestine and anus evolved to work in the alimentary canal, they did not evolve as sëxual organs.

What is useless and destructive about the bride price tradition?
If it should be abolished, why can't gay marriages be introduced?

Homosexual behavior is not a normal thing? Says who?

401kk:

What is useless and destructive about the bride price tradition?
If it should be abolished, why can't gay marriages be introduced?

Homosexual behavior is not a normal thing? Says who?

so you support gay maraige

@pointB Your stance on this matter reeks of hypocrisy. There are many laws given to the hebrews by moses,most of these laws are obsolete,they served the hebrews of biblical era,but can't serve us in this our era,so they were abandoned. Why should you go and pick one of these laws and use it to support your bigotry, it's all or nothing,if you know that you can't keep all the moses laws,then stop picking and choosing.

pazienza: Aha! Same scientists have made us to know that homosexuality exists amongst different species of animals,so it definitely serves a purpose

What the hell man?
It exists among animals therefore it serves a purpose?
The mere fact that animals do it is what makes it useful? I don't understand you.
I know very well that homosexual behaviours are exhibited by very few animals(it occurs among animals but very rarely) but then again there is so much we don't understand about sexuality in animals, some days ago there was news on a research finding that showed that male fish engage in homosexual acts in order to attract more females, not because they are actually homosexual. It is possible that other animals engage in homosexual behaviours for reasons other than their being attracted to animals that are the same sex as they are.

Also animals also carry out acts like cannibalism and incest se.x but these things are taboo and harmful among humans so you cannot use the fact that animals carry out a particular act to prove that that it is ok for humans to also do same

and we also know that ancient human populations like the native americans also had gays among them that had their duty in the society. Moreover you seem to have this flawed notion that homosexuality is equal to anal sex, there is more to homosexuality than anal sex.

I know that it is not just an.al sex, I am just saying that this particular activity that a lot of homosexual males seek to carry out leads to bodily damage. A normal human being never wants to engage in acts that damage their body.
Lastly, homosexuality is an anomaly. If more people were attracted to members of the same sex then the human race would dwindle and die out. Organisms DO NOT evolve to have traits that lead to their dying out or getting extinct, they evolve traits that helps them survive and continue to exist. I don't even know why i am talking about evolution with you, you might be one of those christians that believe that human beings did not evolve.

401kk:

I didn't pick or choose anything. There are custodians of tradition (the ejiofors', the nzes' et al)to whom such responsibility is accorded.

Which ejiofor and nzes? The same ones that are now jesus worshippers and church members,acquiring alien titles like knights,etc.

coolkris: so you support gay maraige

No

401kk:
What is useless and destructive about the bride price tradition?
If it should be abolished, why can't gay marriages be introduced?

Paying for a human being implies that that human being is a commodity that can be replaced with material wealth, it implies that the human as a whole is worth the value of whatever is paid for them. When women are seen as a commodity, their true value as valuable and beneficial members of the society is downplayed. It also leads to the development of sexists beliefs of women being inferior to men since the men are the ones paying for them.

Homosexual behavior is not a normal thing? Says who?

How is it normal?

pazienza: Which ejiofor and nzes? The same ones that are now jesus worshippers and church members,acquiring alien titles like knights,etc.

They are still custodians of tradition whether you like it or not.

.@feli i only stated the fact that homosexual behaviours exist in animal kingdom because,you started off by saying that homosexuality is 'abnormal',but now it is obvious that we don't have a baseline for this arguement. Please,do you mind explaining to me what you meant by the term 'abnormal'.

pazienza: .@feli i only stated the fact that homosexual behaviours exist in animal kingdom because,you started off by saying that homosexuality is 'abnormal',but now it is obvious that we don't have a baseline for this arguement. Please,do you mind explaining to me what you meant by the term 'abnormal'.

Evolutionary anomaly.

I am not happy that this thread has been derailed by people who did not understand the point I am trying to make with it. Some did understand, but they took it too far and started discussing religious, spiritual and scientific rationale of this issue. I had a reason for starting this in the politics section -the issue I want to discuss is the legal rights of the same sex couples. I believe that every person who is familiar at all with me here would know that I am a STRONG Christian; BUT I am setting my faith aside just to look at what POLITICAL response to this issue should be, going by FACTS facing us.
I would ask the Mods to return it to politics section. Meanwhile I appeal to all to cease discussing religious angles of this issue. I settled it by saying that if there is (or was) a church of Igboland, the issue would NEVER even arise.
Thank you all in advance.

Those Animals that are said to exhibit homosexual tendencies are actually bisexual because they maintain colonies..

If that is a fact, why should men support Same-sex marriage as it doesn't exist in Animal Kingdom.

fellis:

Evolutionary anomaly.

Now,i get your point, are you now saying that all sexual relations/activities that does not lead to procreation are evolutionary anomalies?

Ngwakwe: Those Animals that are said to exhibit homosexual tendencies are actually bisexual because they maintain colonies..

If that is a fact, why should men support Same-sex marriage as it doesn't exist in Animal Kingdom.

There has been a case of strictly gay animal that refused to mate with females,someone posted an article on that in some other gay thread,i would look for it,and re post it. But i doubt if it's going to change your opinion,as feli has already asked me,why should we now use what happens in animal kingdom as a standard.

Onlytruth: I am not happy that this thread has been derailed by people who did not understand the point I am trying to make with it. Some did understand, but they took it too far and started discussing religious, spiritual and scientific rationale of this issue. I had a reason for starting this in the politics section -the issue I want to discuss is the legal rights of the same sex couples. I believe that every person who is familiar at all with me here would know that I am a STRONG Christian; BUT I am setting my faith aside just to look at what POLITICAL response to this issue should be, going by FACTS facing us.
I would ask the Mods to return it to politics section. Meanwhile I appeal to all to cease discussing religious angles of this issue. I settled it by saying that if there is (or was) a church of Igboland, the issue would NEVER even arise.
Thank you all in advance.

Eze,I am sowie,but discussions on gay matters will always have a political,scientific,religious,and cultural components.It's always hard to separate these components.

With hindsight now, I probably shouldn't have even started this thread, because few seem to want to discuss the point I am trying to make, a very simple point indeed -a western style marriage is built primarily on love, and dissolves when love dies; an Igbo marriage is NOT primarily built on love. I never said anyone married anyone they were never attracted to physically (duh!), just that they had CHILDREN in mind when they married, and the marriage failed, or at aleast considered unfulfilled if CHILDLESS, and often augmented by marrying a second or third wife. A total divorce whereby a man sent his wife away was only caused by issues of life and death, not by lack of love; in Nnewi Igbo. I make the point of localizing this to my town because that is the one I know more about, and it is Igbo.

Pazienza is the only person that even understands the most basic of the point I am making, though he inserts religion to it. It is my personal opinion that there is no religious basis to the "western style marriage". I have looked at the Bible for this but found NONE. The marriage practiced by the Israelites in the bible is not the same as western style marriage. That is why Jacob had to serve Leban his uncle for 14 years just to enable him marry Rachel. It was a bride price. What we have is a European marriage culture which has been inserted into Christianity. Just as Christmas day (December 25) is not the actual date of Jesus' birth, the same happened to what is called Christian marriage today. It goes deeper too, and there may never be a complete agreement among Bible scholars concerning this topic too. I did not want to discuss spiritual angles or religious or even scientific angles to it. I only wanted to discuss the legal (read politically enforceable) issues going by CONCRETE FACTS.

Since it appears that we cannot discuss this in the politics section where it belongs, I may go ahead to delete and unfollow the original post.
Thread has been killed by the Mods, and I suspect it is out of jealousy against Igbo ways of dealing with world problems.
This forum site has been reduced to a place for kinders and I will stop contributing meaningful posts to it henceforth.

pazienza: Now,i get your point, are you now saying that all sexual relations/activities that does not lead to procreation are evolutionary anomalies?

This your question na wa. Where did I suggest such a thing? I wasn't talking about activities that don't lead to procreation, I was talking about being sex.ually attracted to members of the same sex.

401kk: Onlytruth, I urge you read Elechi Amadi's "The Concubine". It will enrich your perspectives and views concerning marriage and relationships in Igboland.

Let me get this straight.
You want me ( a thoroughbred Nnewi man) to take a cue from Elechi Amadi's work of fiction to direct my thoughts? You want me to take a cue (even if not from his work of fiction), from a man at war with himself? I will do that after Amadi has undone the damage he did to Igbo mindset.
Nonsense and ingredients!

Lol this is the first time I've ever practically agreed with Onlytruth. Very interesting. I really was expecting something totally different.

fellis:

Thank goodness all this rubbish is dying away.
Funny and oppressive traditions ranging from buying a human being to refusing to accept the fact that men can also be infertile.
I wonder how these things came about in the first place. I wonder why people just decided that the woman should be placed below the man in marriage and she should be paid for and bought like an ordinary commodity.



I think the real reason you decided to conclude that same sex marriage should be allowed is because your church allows it.

You probably had some difficulty coming to terms with the fact that your church supports such a thing and that was why you sat down to rack your brains and find some sort of justification for it instead of acknowledging that your church shouldn't support homosexuality.

I personally do not support discrimination of homosexuals or denying them their rights, I think doing such a thing is just inhumane as homosexuals can be born the way they are and should not be discriminated for having preferences/traits they cannot control.
I think they should be accepted and treated the way everyone else is treated.
What I don't support is the idea that homosexuality is perfectly normal or that homosexual tendencies are perfectly normal.
Abeg it is not normal. End of story.
Living things evolved to have traits that ensure their survival and continued existence, not traits that would lead to their extinction or would lead to their sustaining permanent rectal damage. I understand that nature is not perfect and evolution is not perfect and that there would certainly be flaws and anomalies/glitches in the evolution of species (and homosexuality is one of those glitches, it serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever).

Legalizing same sex marriage would in a way, serve to encourage the adoption of anomalies as an accepted way of life.
Sympathy and understanding can be extended to homosexual people though, no discriminating or treating them badly.
That doesn't mean we should start pretending that homosexuality is perfectly normal and nothing is wrong with it.

very well said, miss!

This thread reeks of hypocrisy