This biblical verse sounds logical:

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin. Deut. 24:16

I ACCEPT that. Does that make me a believer?

On the other hand, Christianity emphasises and relies so much on the concept of "Original Sin" :

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,, "Rom. 5:19

"For as in Adam all die, , "1Cor. 15:22 [i][/i]

This is so unjust that I REJECT IT!!

Did I create or could I control Adam? How could I, for no fault of mine be condemned right from birth?

The concept of Original Sin is to merely to justify why Jesus had to be Murdered by being hung on a tree

Does that make me an unbeliever?

I am definitely at a lost with this one. If any argue is unconsistent, this is the one.
First it is said that no soul shall carry the burdens of another, then it is said that Jesus died for the Sins of Man.
Please can we go back to logical. I don't understand the ethos of this ideology. If Jesus died for the sins of Man, why do we need to be good. Why do we need to live clean lives.

If anything should come from a religion, it should be consistency.

Alphazee:

On the other hand, Christianity emphasises and relies so much on the concept of "Original Sin" :

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,, "Rom. 5:19

"For as in Adam all die, , "1Cor. 15:22 [i][/i]

This is so unjust that I REJECT IT!!

This is the fundamental aspect of christianity and i'm not surprised that mus'lims, atheists attack this so virulently. For as long as they REJECT this they will likewise perish!

The origin of sin is very similar to genetics today . . . if your parents are both AS one of their children will be SS . . . now was that the fault of the child . . . infact that is so unjust that I also reject it . . .

As Adam was the first man and from whom we all came, we inherited his nature . . . the nature of sin, of rebellion against God and covetousness. However the enemy has also blinded the eyes of this generation that they also forget that we inherited ANOTHER part of Adam's nature, the inherent longing for God and the search for repentance.
Adam had Cain and Abel . . . Abel did not sit down on the floor and weep at the unjustness of having been born in sin thanks to his father's mistake, he made a CONSCIOUS effort to do that which was pleasing in the sight of God and he was saved. Cain chose to whinge about the unjustness of the sinful nature, killed his brother, rebelled against his parents and was cast out into perdition.

Madam, we can cry all we like about the unjustness of the original sin but there is a way out . . . the choice is yours.

nanayisha:

I am definitely at a lost with this one. If any argue is unconsistent, this is the one.

What of the mus'lim argument that Abraham built the kaaba?

nanayisha:

First it is said that no soul shall carry the burdens of another, then it is said that Jesus died for the Sins of Man.

There is no consistency except that which ur imams have planted into you. If Christ had been a mere man, a mortal like you and me then it would have been strange that a soul would carry the burden of another. But Christ, who Himself is God, took on human flesh, and without Sin took up our onwn sins on the cross that through Him we might be saved.

nanayisha:

Please can we go back to logical. I don't understand the ethos of this ideology. If Jesus died for the sins of Man, why do we need to be good. Why do we need to live clean lives.

Neither do i understand the ethos of your own ideology that you are slaves of a god. why are u a slave? That is UNJUST!

nanayisha:

If anything should come from a religion, it should be consistency.

That is true . . . start with the inconsistencies in is'lam first. You pple have been stumbling around trying to explain it away to no avail.

Alphazee:

On the other hand, Christianity emphasises and relies so much on the concept of "Original Sin" :

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,, "Rom. 5:19

"For as in Adam all die, , "1Cor. 15:22 [i][/i]

This is so unjust that I REJECT IT!!

Did I create or could I control Adam? How could I, for no fault of mine be condemned right from birth?

Good question. But you are guilty of this same thing you are complaining about.

Examples ->
1) One Hausa man in your class in not interested in his books. You conclude that ALL Hausas must be poorly educated.
2) One Yoruba man dissapoints you somewhere. You conclude that ALL Yorubas are unreliable.
3) One Igbo man cheats you in the market. You conclude that ALL Igbos must be cheats.

Do u feel me

imhotep:

Good question. But you are guilty of this same thing you are complaining about.

Examples ->
1) One Hausa man in your class in not interested in his books. You conclude that ALL Hausas must be poorly educated.
2) One Yoruba man dissapoints you somewhere. You conclude that ALL Yorubas are unreliable.
3) One Igbo man cheats you in the market. You conclude that ALL Igbos must be cheats.

Do u feel me

na talk my broda

@4him

This is the fundamental aspect of christianity and i'm not surprised that mus'lims, atheists attack this so virulently. For as long as they REJECT this they will likewise perish!
The origin of sin is very similar to genetics today . . . if your parents are both AS one of their children will be SS . . . now was that the fault of the child . . . infact that is so unjust that I also reject it . . .

Pls note that when 2 people have the sickle cell trait (AS), they are forewarned and don't have to marry or procreate. Therefore they will have no kids with sickle cell anemia (they have an option).

Even when they go ahead procreate, statistically, each child has: a 25 percent chance of inheriting two normal genes; a 50 percent chance of inheriting one normal gene and one abnormal gene; and a 25 percent chance of inheriting two abnormal genes (only 1 in 4 may be a sickler).

But as in Adam, All Have Sinned. Total condemnation!! No warnings, no options

@imhotep

Good question. But you are guilty of this same thing you are complaining about.

Examples ->
1) One Hausa man in your class in not interested in his books. You conclude that ALL Hausas must be poorly educated.
2) One Yoruba man dissapoints you somewhere. You conclude that ALL Yorubas are unreliable.
3) One Igbo man cheats you in the market. You conclude that ALL Igbos must be cheats.

Do u feel me

No I don't feel you at all! In what way am I guilty? You only exposed your own prejudices about the Hausa, Yoruba and Ibo. Why attribute them to me? I'm not as narrow-minded

Alphazee:

No I don't feel you at all! In what way am I guilty? You only exposed your own prejudices about the Hausa, Yoruba and Ibo. Why attribute them to me? I'm not as narrow-minded

You have only succeeded in avoiding the issue.

DISCOVERING AND RECOVERING YOUR DESTINY (PART 1)
More often than not people have underestimated the subject of destiny.60 percent of people in the world do not believe in it.30 percent do but have not discovered theirs and that puts them in the same class of those who do not believe in it.10 percent of people living on earth have discovered theirs and working in the reality of it.No wonder the number of purpose driven people on earth is so few.Many people seems to be doing what they like or what the society has influenced them to do.
Let me proceed further by saying that you did not decide your birth have you even thought of how helpless you would have been in your mothers womb or even as an infant child.You did not appear here by chance,you are not a biological accident you are creature of destiny and until your destiny is discovered life becomes a misery and u live like a destitute.You live unfulfilled and I pray you don’t die that way.
You came to this world because God Decided that you should come He embedded in you great potentials that would solve most of the problems of this world.
Whether you like it or not God is your creator, He is your manufacturer and you are his product,Just like you cant store drinks in your television and watch programmes with your refrigerator so also you cannot determine your purpose or destiny you can on ly discover it.And the best way to do that is by Going back to the manufacturer God through Jesus Christ.
You have an ALREADY MADE PLAN STOP LIVING IN YOUR OWN PLAN THERE IS NO FUTURE THERE IT MIGHT LOOK SWEET FOR A WHILE BUT IT WOULD COS U TO CONTINUE SWEATING
THIS IS THE PART 1 OF THIS POST WATCH OUT FOR THE PART 2
OMEGA WORLD NETWORK,uchkochi@yahoo.com,omegaworldnetwork@Gmail.com.+2348052773865

uchkochi:

DISCOVERING AND RECOVERING YOUR DESTINY (PART 1)
More often than not people have underestimated the subject of destiny.60 percent of people in the world do not believe in it.30 percent do but have not discovered theirs and that puts them in the same class of those who do not believe in it.10 percent of people living on earth have discovered theirs and working in the reality of it.No wonder the number of purpose driven people on earth is so few.Many people seems to be doing what they like or what the society has influenced them to do.
Let me proceed further by saying that you did not decide your birth have you even thought of how helpless you would have been in your mothers womb or even as an infant child.You did not appear here by chance,you are not a biological accident you are creature of destiny and until your destiny is discovered life becomes a misery and u live like a destitute.You live unfulfilled and I pray you don’t die that way.
You came to this world because God Decided that you should come He embedded in you great potentials that would solve most of the problems of this world.
Whether you like it or not God is your creator, He is your manufacturer and you are his product,Just like you can't store drinks in your television and watch programmes with your refrigerator so also you cannot determine your purpose or destiny you can on ly discover it.And the best way to do that is by Going back to the manufacturer God through Jesus Christ.
You have an ALREADY MADE PLAN STOP LIVING IN YOUR OWN PLAN THERE IS NO FUTURE THERE IT MIGHT LOOK SWEET FOR A WHILE BUT IT WOULD COS You TO CONTINUE SWEATING
THIS IS THE PART 1 OF THIS POST WATCH OUT FOR THE PART 2
OMEGA WORLD NETWORK,uchkochi@yahoo.com,omegaworldnetwork@Gmail.com.+2348052773865

this is rubbish.

Alphazee:

@4him
Please note that when 2 people have the sickle cell trait (AS), they are forewarned and don't have to marry or procreate. Therefore they will have no kids with sickle cell anemia (they have an option).

Even when they go ahead procreate, statistically, each child has: a 25 percent chance of inheriting two normal genes; a 50 percent chance of inheriting one normal gene and one abnormal gene; and a 25 percent chance of inheriting two abnormal genes (only 1 in 4 may be a sickler).

But as in Adam, All Have Sinned. Total condemnation!! No warnings, no options

Thanks to genetics, 50yrs ago there was no warning for people carrying the AS gene. That means we've had centuries of people dying from sickle cell disease without warning. Isnt that unjust too?

My dear . . . one of the attributes of the enemy is to decieve and twist scripture.

But as in Adam, ALL have sinned. Total condemnation!! Plenty of warnings! ONE OPTION.

It is up to you.

@4him
When you brought up the issue of sickle cell anaemia, I only tried to point out that it is a lesser evil compared to the concept of Original Sin. That the former gives some room for escape, while the latter is a total trap. I didn't justify the creation of sicklers. Hence I wonder your target of attack when you wrote the following:

Thanks to genetics, 50yrs ago there was no warning for people carrying the AS gene.

Who created the people with the AS gene? Me

That means we've had centuries of people dying from sickle cell disease without warning.

Who created and killed the sicklers for centuries? Me

Isn't that unjust too?

Whom do you blame for the INJUSTICE? Me

My dear . . . one of the attributes of the enemy is to deceive and twist scripture.

But as in Adam, ALL have sinned. Total condemnation!! Plenty of warnings! ONE OPTION.

It is up to you.

No. It is up to you! I WASN'T BORN A SINNER, because I believe

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin. Deut. 24:16

I didn't twist the scripture. I quoted verses as they are in your Bible (although I don't know which VERSION you read)

@ alphazee . . .
1. you dont believe the bible in the first place.
2. You cant pick and choose what to believe . . . the bible says all have sinned, you cant reject that to hide under Deut 24:16

Since you declare that you were not born a sinner i have just one more statement for you - Go and the god of this world who hath blinded your eyes be with you.

@4Him: You can do better than all your posts above. You are the one who should be concerned that you are dealing with a book contradicting itself all over the places!

@Uchkochi;

Whether you like it or not God is your creator, He is your manufacturer and you are his product,Just like you can't store drinks in your television and watch programmes with your refrigerator so also you cannot determine your purpose or destiny you can on ly discover it.And the best way to do that is by Going back to the manufacturer God through Jesus Christ

Thank God that you differentiate God from Jesus. But I wonder how it was possible that God Almighty was capable of saving people throughout the ages before Jesus? Take the great salvation under Moses, for example. And even before that, the saving and ransoming of the son of Ibrahim (as) from being slaughtered! What was the role of Jesus in these major situations without even going to Noah's major event?

lets for one second even forget about Adam's sins. . . .the next question is this: Have you Alphazee sinned or not?

If you haven't then you can reject anything you want, but if you have, you're as guilty as ol' Adam was

4Him:

But as in Adam, ALL have sinned. Total condemnation!! Plenty of warnings! ONE OPTION.

It is up to you.

Actually I disagree David - you have many options

1. deny you're a sinner and live a 'moral' life and end up eternally separated from God (hell)

2. accept your sins but try to compensate or pay back the wrong you did yourself. . .you fail and end up as in #1 above

3. accept you are a sinner and hang around people who believe in Jesus, do some of the things they do but never get a relationship with Him yourself, end up as in #1 above

4. accept your sins and the way back Jesus provides, walk with Him in this life and achieve your purpose, end up with Him after your time on earth expires - eternal joy, satisfaction and rest.

5.deny you're a sinner, live a hedonistic existence, make tons of cash, enjoy the finest pleasures of life, end up as in #1 above.

A believer is one who accepts the basic principle in the bible - that the whole bible is God's revealed word and instruction for our lives. . .you may not understand everything at once, you may even doubt some parts at times, but you hold on.

debosky:

Actually I disagree David - you have many options

Over to you alphazee, i didnt even see those "options".

olabowale:

@4Him: You can do better than all your posts above. You are the one who should be concerned that you are dealing with a book contradicting itself all over the places!

Should really? shouldnt you be more concerned about a prophet who boldly declared that the sun set in a muddy spring?

@debosky

lets for one second even forget about Adam's sins. . . .the next question is this: Have you Alphazee sinned or not?

The on only reason I pray at all is to show gratitude to MY GOD for all His blessings on me and to forgive whatever sin I must have committed (knowingly or unknowingly), not because I inherited any sin.

Assuming I agree that Adam, created by God had committed sin on my behalf and the same God (who created Adam, the sinner) had sent someone (Jesus) to die for me because I unjustly inherited Adam's sin, is the equation not balanced? Why then would I need to pray?

Alphazee:

Assuming I agree that Adam, created by God had committed sin on my behalf and the same God (who created Adam, the sinner) had sent someone (Jesus) to die for me because I unjustly inherited Adam's sin, is the equation not balanced? Why then would I need to pray?

the christian doctrine does not apply to you. By all means continue as al'lah's slave.

@4him

the Christian doctrine does not apply to you. By all means continue as al'lah's slave.

Does it really apply to you? Check these:

Matthew 10:5-6

5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.

6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

For Emphasis, read Matthew 15:21-25

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.

22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

25 The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

26 He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

Considering the fact that you are DEFINITELY not of the lost sheep of Israel, in which category does the last quoted verse above place you?

So isn't it better to be a slave to even SANGO? At least SANGO would dignify you as HUMAN!

Acts 10: 34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

did you forget to read the above too?

@4Him

Acts 10: 34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Why not serve us the saying of Jesus himself and not of third party? Did the author of the above gospel meet Jesus?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Good, now in some versions, we have, 'all the nations". The nations here refer to the 12 twelve tribes of Jesus because he was sent to them and that is why he said that he would sit judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations

All nations means all the 12 tribes of Israel. Please what goespel are you referring to?

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Still the same issue, did Jesus make the above statement or by Luke that wrote letter to Theophilus and never met Jesus?

did you forget to read the above too?

That should go to you.

babs787:

Why not serve us the saying of Jesus himself and not of third party? Did the author of the above gospel meet Jesus?

i already did you hypocrite.

babs787:

Good, now in some versions, we have, 'all the nations". The nations here refer to the 12 twelve tribes of Jesus because he was sent to them and that is why he said that he would sit judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

that is the isl'amic definition. Did Jesus have any 12 tribes?

babs787:

All nations means all the 12 tribes of Israel. Please what goespel are you referring to?

Show me where this is clearly stated in your own injeel.

babs787:

Still the same issue, did Jesus make the above statement or by Luke that wrote letter to Theophilus and never met Jesus?

Jesus Christ said so . . . read the last two statements i quoted.

@David


Did you make any sense at all?

babs787:

@David


Did you make any sense at all?

i'm not even sure, it was very hard to make any sense of ur post.

@4Him:

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 08:31:52 PM
All nations means all the 12 tribes of Israel. Please what goespel are you referring to?


Show me where this is clearly stated in your own injeel.

Injeel is a continuation of Torah, since they are in the same book, the Bible. Both focused and spoke to the same people, the 12 Tribes of Isreal. We read from the Old Testament that when Moses gave them drinking places, it was drinking places where each nation (tribe) had its own, separate from the other nations (tribes).

Please try to read that portion of the Bible and bring yourself to par, in the New Testament. Nation is nothing more than tribe in the Bible, hence Jesus was sent to the Children of Israel nations which you termed to mean the whole world. Nations means tribes, and not world which will include African nations and the rest of the other nations of the world, even though they are all in different continents.

olabowale:

@4Him: Injeel is a continuation of Torah, since they are in the same book, the Bible. Both focused and spoke to the same people, the 12 Tribes of Isreal. We read from the Old Testament that when Moses gave them drinking places, it was drinking places where each nation (tribe) had its own, separate from the other nations (tribes).

The bible never confused the 12 tribes of Isreal to mean "nations". It is deceptful mus'lims with ulterior motives who struggle to read such lies into the bible.

olabowale:

Please try to read that portion of the Bible and bring yourself to par, in the New Testament. Nation is nothing more than tribe in the Bible, hence Jesus was sent to the Children of Israel nations which you termed to mean the whole world. Nations means tribes, and not world which will include African nations and the rest of the other nations of the world, even though they are all in different continents.

what rubbish. Where in ur injeel did u read this?

@Alphazee,

Although most discussants appear to berate you for the question you raised. I must commend you for you spoke truely what your soul felt. God imbued all of us with the ability to recognise what is just just. God himself is the origin of justice and that is why any happening that negates the principle of justice is not correct. Such instances of injustices should not be glossed over and drowned with some quotations from the sacred books of different religions. Why will one be punished for the sins of others is a legitimate spiritual question. Why are some people born blind and others have a 20/20 vision? Why are some people born into wealth and royalty while others are born into abject poverty and squalor? Why are some people born with genetic disorder? Why do bad things happen to some good people? Why are some couples childless and others are blessed with several kids, why do some people suffer through out their lifes and others enjoy the best things even without effort? Why are some born prodigies and others brainless? Why do accidents happen? Why do natural catastropes occur? Why will the only child of couple suddenly die at the prime of his or her youth? etc. These questions and more occupy the soul of any normal human being. It is only those that are abnormal that questions like this do not bother. These types of question are fundamental to understanding the JUSTICE of God. Therefore keep on seeking and you will surely find. Stay blessed!

Alphazee, and others I feel you all. Indeed the posters arguement seems logical. but since is biblical question, lets connects it to Bible.

By one man (Adam) all have sinned, does not mean that after birth you will be judged by the sins of ADAM & EVE (I mean a birth of few Mintues and the child dies) do we judge the child with the sins of Adam, certaintly not.

Through Adam all have sinned : simply means that their blood which still flows on every unbelievers blood is not clean as par when Man was originally created by God i.e before sin.

So once one is born on earth, he is under condemnation until when born of the Spirit and of the Water. i.e to say being Born Again as the Bible recorded it.

Once born again, Christ blood flows in you, no longer Adam's blood. Hence through One man we are redeemed.

MAY GOD GIVE YOU UNDERSTANDING.

@4Him

The bible never confused the 12 tribes of Isreal to mean "nations". It is deceptful mus'lims with ulterior motives who struggle to read such lies into the bible.

Ok, did Jesus not say that he would sit judging the 12 tribes of Israel?

what rubbish. Where in your injeel did u read this?

You yourself know that we have verses in the Quran where he was sent to the children of Israel and also made an example for them.

If you are even deceiving yourself, there are verses in your NT showing that he was sent to the children of Israel.

@May Kelly

Alphazee, and others I feel you all. Indeed the posters arguement seems logical. but since is biblical question, lets connects it to Bible.

Good.

By one man (Adam) all have sinned,

How did all sin because of a man?

does not mean that after birth you will be judged by the sins of ADAM & EVE (I mean a birth of few Mintues and the child dies) do we judge the child with the sins of Adam, certaintly not.

So?

Through Adam all have sinned : simply means that their blood which still flows on every unbelievers blood is not clean as par when Man was originally created by God i.e before sin.

Sister, don't try confusing yourself. If am getting you, you are saying all beings have become unclean as a result of Adam and if that is the truth, how come little children that never knew anything (neither left from right) till they reach puberty? Man is still as clean as when he was originally created. It was christianity that infused this doctrine of original into their religion. There is nothing like sin inherited from Adam. You have well explained verses in the bible on these so no need for me wasting time here.

So once one is born on earth, he is under condemnation until when born of the Spirit and of the Water. i.e to say being Born Again as the Bible recorded it.

Its a blantant lie. No man is under any comdemnation. Mind you, JESUS never preached all these during him time but wa inserted into christianity by historians that never witnessed his ministry. Jesus came and preached repentance, by leaving shunning their evil ways fr the worship of one creator hence his 'repent and be born again for the kingd of God is at hand' and not that' you have inherited sin from Adam and the only you can be clean is when I use my blood to wash it away'.

Once born again, Christ blood flows in you, no longer Adam's blood. Hence through One man we are redeemed.

Madam, there is nothing spectacular in being brn again. In  a lay man concept, being born again, is leaving one's evil ways, bad ways for a normal, peaceful, religious life devoid of sin

Nobody redeemed you until you accept the last prophet and last book. Jesus didnt come to die for any sin and will never. If he had come to die and he knew that, why did he pray more than two times and his sweat were like blood, why did he shout on the cross that, 'my God, why has thou forsaken me'?

MAY GOD GIVE YOU UNDERSTANDING.

That goes to you.

babs787:

Ok, did Jesus not say that he would sit judging the 12 tribes of Israel?

When did tribes become ALL NATIONS OF THE WORLD?

babs787:

You yourself know that we have verses in the The Great Book where he was sent to the children of Israel and also made an example for them.

The ko'ran isnt a reliable source.

babs787:

If you are even deceiving yourself, there are verses in your NT showing that he was sent to the children of Israel.

there are also verses where Christ specifically asked His disciples to preach to the nations of the world.