omar22:


Your right with that but its a culture issue and arrogance



The Germans are not going down that route and Guardiola is managing Bayern Munich and not Germany... Yes Germany has added more possession play but they still play with agression, physical and arial power.




Brazil still plays their Samba stytle but not the walking pace we used to know and which Nigeria adopted from the 70's, but they play with speed and aggression and more defensive minded, in 2002 Scolari played an orthodox 3 4 3 formation, in 2002 which gave Cafu and Carlos could easily join the attack, and Sweeper Edmilson starts the attack from deep




Nigeria used to play the old Brazilian style that Otto Gloria introduced to us in the 70s, yeah it got us the Nations cup in 1980, but the game was so slow, almost at walking pace, the Northern African teams did adopt the English kick and Run because their climate allowed the running but now they are trying add possession football to their game but NIgeria went from the slow possession football to kick and rush footie this is because we dont prepare properly for tournaments

coogar:

it's a cultural issue - the english philosophy has always preferred pragmatism and direct football to the boring football played at a slow pace. the english football would not change those ethos for tiki-taka football.



the germans are not going any route.....:they have always remained true to their own ethos as well. they play efficient football mostly counter attacking football. the germans are like a well-oiled machine. possession football, strength, direct football, pragmatism, etc. they play the most balanced football in europe. they have a bit of everything in them.



this is another false statement
brazil brought back scolari because they have run out of managers to lend ideas from. scolari was at chelsea, how much tiki-taka did he introduce in his disgraceful spell in england? abegi, pack it in with your stale analysis. brazil sef have dropped a large chunk of their samba football - they play more like a european team these days unlike in the 80s when "tip-tap" was their main etho!

thegoodjoehunt:

Your own is to argue things you don't understand. Even Omar22 agreed that Germany is playing more possessively now but you are saying there are no changes.

You are saying, " scolari was at chelsea, how much tiki-taka did he introduce in his disgraceful spell in england?"
Ask Chelsea fans, their problem with Scolari was that he was trying to change them to Brazil. At Chelsea he didn't get the kind of players he worked with and had a short stay. It is like saying Boas is not a good coach because he didn't do well at Chelsea.

Scolari succeeded with the Brazilian and Portuguese teams because they have skillful players. Not Chelsea at that time with Mechanics as Footballers. Why do you think he wanted Robinho and Quaresma. Why do you think Chelsea went on to buy Hazard, Oscar, Mata, Marin, Moses, Piazon etc. That is skillful players. They know that mechanic football is going out of date.

Chelsea now have more Brazilians than ever ( Piazon, Oscar, Ramires, David Luiz ) ie what Scolari was trying to do but you are criticizing him.
The Kick and Hush football is dying, that is why Mourinho is finding it difficult at Real Madrid.

thegoodjoehunt:

Your own is to argue things you don't understand. Even Omar22 agreed that Germany is playing more possessively now but you are saying there are no changes.

You are saying, " scolari was at chelsea, how much tiki-taka did he introduce in his disgraceful spell in england?"

Ask Chelsea fans, their problem with Scolari was that he was trying to change them to Brazil. At Chelsea he didn't get the kind of players he worked with and had a short stay. It is like saying Boas is not a good coach because he didn't do well at Chelsea.

Scolari succeeded with the Brazilian and Portuguese teams because they have skillful players. Not Chelsea at that time with Mechanics as Footballers. Why do you think he wanted Robinho and Quaresma. Why do you think Chelsea went on to buy Hazard, Oscar, Mata, Marin, Moses, Piazon etc. That is skillful players. They know that mechanic football is going out of date.

Chelsea now have more Brazilians than ever ( Piazon, Oscar, Ramires, David Luiz ) ie what Scolari was trying to do but you are criticizing him.

The Kick and Hush football is dying, that is why Mourinho is finding it difficult at Real Madrid.

coogar:

you talk absent wisdom - when have germany ever played without keeping possession of the ball? i think you just started watching your football in the last 5 yrs. go back in the days and watch the german team again.



at chelsea, his style of football would not work in a league where thei rivals are all about direct football. you cannot try that samba rubbish in england - the fans are all about great clearances, crunchy tackles and running for 90mins. scolari was using the wrong philosophy in the league. there's nothing wrong in the chelsea team scolari worked with - they were champions league finalists 3 months before scolari arrived!



and what have the skillful players they bought achieved? chelsea had the potential of winning 7 competitons at the start of the season, they have been dumped out of 5 already....with their skillful players!



direct football can never die.....
the last champions league winners played direct football.....jose mourinho won the spanish league last season playing direct football. scolari is shyte - i can write everything scolari knows about football on a grain of rice. because he won a world cup in 2002?

everyone of us on this forum would win a world cup with that brazilian squad - more so, when the only quality sides they played on their way to victory in 2002 were turkey n germany. costa rica, china and belgium are not football superpowers so what's the whole scolari cocksucking habit you have suddenly developed?

never_say_never: Direct football might not die, but it's presently on the backfoot. R.madrid won the league last season but where are they now? Crumbling! You say you can't play possesive football in england...remember Arsenal's invincibles? You ever watch swansea of late? Even bayern munich. Dude, this is good football's era.

thegoodjoehunt:

Can you explain to me how playing more possessively mean that they never had a possessive side to their game? The present German national team hold the ball more possessively than the team that featured in 2006 Coached by Jurgen Klinsmann. Does that mean that there is no possessive side of the game coached by Klinsmann? Michael Ballack was key to that team and he was a pass master.

Now the Germans are tilting towards being more possessive than before.
I watched the Arsenal vs Brighton game today and both teams played lovely possession football. I pray more English teams tilt towards this direction.

coogar:



and what have the skillful players they bought achieved? chelsea had the potential of winning 7 competitons at the start of the season, they have been dumped out of 5 already....with their skillful players!

thegoodjoehunt:
That is the problem with direct football fans. They believe football is a walk in the park. That is why most direct teams are filled with players with no technical touch or skills.

You expect a park bus team to transform into a possessive/attacking wonder over night. Barcelona and Spain have horned their skill for years before achieving what they are enjoying now.

Luis Aragonés lost to France in 2006 at the World Cup. 2 years later he took the same team to Euro Glory in 2008. The German side were not brave enough to battle Spain at the 2010 World Cup. At the Euros they played better, even though Spain still won. Later they will achieve tremendous result.

That is the best route and I hope the Nigerian National team takes that route. Most African teams are still playing the Kick and Hush football. This would be a good opportunity to take a lead.

coogar:

where are swansea on the league table? the arsenal invincible was a bit of both - they mixed tippy-tappy with some of the crudest football you can ever see. lauren, keown, vieira and gilberto were mean motherfückers who broke bones when required.

barcelona lost the league race last season - why didn't their possessive football beat mourinho's pragmatism? city won the premier league, why didn't arsenal's possession football or swansea's spanish style win the english league? enough with all the nonsense you guys are spewing. there are many ways to win a game of football!



this is a crazy statement to make.....
no manager or tactics instructs the players to give the ball away carelessly. you can argue the present german team is more talented than the 2006 but to argue one team deliberately gives the ball away is criminal! the present german team are younger, more talented and their main ethos is their counterattacking football!



it has never worked!
possession football with a purpose is the key! hugging possession without hurting your opponents is just a waste of time - as arsenal have been known in recent times. this is why many prefer direct football in england. look at all the newly promoted teams that came into the premier league - only stoke have stayed in the premier league for so long and they didn't achieve it by playing tippy-tappy. blackpool, hull, etc have all been forgotten now with their tippy-tappy! this is england - strength over style!

coogar:

story.......
until you get it that some fans get bored with endless passing of the ball, you would continue to beat about the bush. some football fans(many of them) don't particularly like the way spain/barca play. i don't blame those fans cos most of the games spain won at the world cup were by the margin of the skin of their teeth. a header from a corner won it against germany(that's not a tiki-taka goal), holland could have beaten them if only robben wasn't such an idiotic püssy! the goal that undid holland wasn't exactly a tiki-taka goal too plus they lost their opening game scandalously against hitzfeld's switzerland. it makes you begin to question the relevance of tiki-taka!

England conceding 4 goals against Germany, Barcelona beating Manchester United in two Champions League finals, Manchester United aka Kings of England being outplayed by the whooping boys Athletico Bilbao of La Liga, makes you wonder why the whole World isn't playing direct football.

coogar:

where are swansea on the league table? the arsenal invincible was a bit of both - they mixed tippy-tappy with some of the crudest football you can ever see. lauren, keown, vieira and gilberto were mean motherfückers who broke bones when required.

barcelona lost the league race last season - why didn't their possessive football beat mourinho's pragmatism? city won the premier league, why didn't arsenal's possession football or swansea's spanish style win the english league? enough with all the nonsense you guys are spewing. there are many ways to win a game of football!



this is a crazy statement to make.....
no manager or tactics instructs the players to give the ball away carelessly. you can argue the present german team is more talented than the 2006 but to argue one team deliberately gives the ball away is criminal! the present german team are younger, more talented and their main ethos is their counterattacking football!



it has never worked!
possession football with a purpose is the key! hugging possession without hurting your opponents is just a waste of time - as arsenal have been known in recent times. this is why many prefer direct football in england. look at all the newly promoted teams that came into the premier league - only stoke have stayed in the premier league for so long and they didn't achieve it by playing tippy-tappy. blackpool, hull, etc have all been forgotten now with their tippy-tappy! this is england - strength over style!

thegoodjoehunt:

England conceding 4 goals against Germany, Barcelona beating Manchester United in two Champions League finals, Manchester United aka Kings of England being outplayed by the whooping boys Athletico Bilbao of La Liga, makes you wonder why the whole World isn't playing direct football.

thegoodjoehunt:

First of all, Man City is a possessive side, they play more possessively than direct football. A lot of people criticize Manchester City of holding the ball too long. I am a Manchester City fan and I know this.

Secondly, where did you get: no manager or tactics instructs the players to give the ball away carelessly. you can argue the present german team is more talented than the 2006 but to argue one team deliberately gives the ball away is criminal!

Rijkaard's Barcelona were a good possessive side but Guardiola's team played more possessively and kept the ball longer. Does that mean that Rijkaard tells his to give the ball away carelessly?

Also Note this stat:
Passing accuracy table
Manchester United 86.9%
Arsenal 86.5%
Manchester City 86.2%
Swansea City 85.4%
Liverpool 85.2%
Chelsea 84.4%
Spurs 83.5%

Average possession
Liverpool 59%
Manchester City 59%
Manchester United 58%
Arsenal 58%
Chelsea 56%
Swansea City 55%
Spurs 50%

The best clubs among the direct playing teams in England are the most possessive ones except Liverpool. That is because they are rebuilding and don't have lots of talents like their conterparts.

Finally, you said,"possession football with a purpose is the key! hugging possession without hurting your opponents is just a waste of time".
That is what everyone thought till Guardiola came and proved everyone wrong. [/color]

coogar:


guardiola inherited a world class team - it's not surprising he achieved that much in the short period he was at barcelona. any manager who spends as much as him and blessed with 4 of the best 5 players in the world should win titles - i would have won more than guardiola in his shoes!

thegoodjoehunt:
Whether you like it or not, Man City are a very possessive side and keep the ball. They are the Champions of England. Barca are a very possessive dominating side and they are dominating club football. Ajax are a possessive side, they are the dutch Champions. Borrusia Dortmund, ,other grat passing side are the Champions of Germany.

Guardiola plays a more possessive game than Rijkaard. Can you compare the speed at which Rijkaard's Barca play to the way Guardiola's Barca play?

The second Champions League won by Guardiola didn't have Giovanni Van Bronkhurst, Eto'o, Ronaldhino, Larsson, Beletti, Marquez, Edmilson, Deco, Oleguer, Sylvinho, Henry, Gudjohnson. Yet you are saying that it is the same team.

Even Scholes has told you that the possession route is better and that is why the English national team is failing. Yet you are still arguing.

You are saying how far Swansea. They are clearly the best side among the teams promoted since last season.

Are you not impressed with their success? Didn't you see Brighton outplay Newcastle and knock Newcastle from the FA Cup playing lovely possessive football. The evidence is clear, that is why you needed the blackbelt Camerounian team of 1990 to make your point.

Are you trying to say Scholes doesn't know what his saying when he said English football needs reorientation from the Grassroot?

coogar:

he does not!
it's a cultural thing - england don't just produce technical players like spain. it's an innate ability. go and read the xavi interview again, he said there was a time he feared for his future cos if a player is not 6ft in the midfield then he won't be considered good enough for football! there's no orientation you can give english players that would make them play like xavi or busquets! that's just a pipe dream.........there's no orientation you can give nigerians and make them swim better than caucasians - it's a cultural thing!

coogar:

he does not!
it's a cultural thing - england don't just produce technical players like spain. it's an innate ability. go and read the xavi interview again, he said there was a time he feared for his future cos if a player is not 6ft in the midfield then he won't be considered good enough for football! there's no orientation you can give english players that would make them play like xavi or busquets! that's just a pipe dream.........there's no orientation you can give nigerians and make them swim better than caucasians - it's a cultural thing!

thegoodjoehunt:

http://worldinsport.com/2011/06/paul-scholes-england-need-to-adopt-the-spanish-way-html/

I hope you still don't think Scholes does not know what he is saying because as you pointed out, he is one of the brain boxes in this direct football.

No one is saying every club or National team should deviate from their pattern. We are saying that teams should promote more players that can keep the ball and pass well.
Like Coach Keshi dropping a player like Raheem Lawal and now we have no creative player to complement Mikel.

thegoodjoehunt:

This was said after Manchester City beat Stoke in December 2011. An astonishing 924 completed passes by City is the highest recorded by any Premier League side since 2003.

I am glad my CITIZENS are doing it the Barca way. Now it is just patience left for us to become one of the elites in Football history.

coogar:

are you an illiterate? are you a stark illiterate?
i didn't see any direct quote of paul scholes regarding what you claimed apart from where he said alex ferguson wants him to play 10-15 games in the following season! please, don't embarrass yourself any further. learn to separate a blogger's opinion and the direct quote from the players they mention!



doing it the barca way and finishing 2 points in their champions league group! the barca way is really helping them, ain't it? stoke ceded possession knowing the kind of fearsome attack they are coming against.......this is more to do with stoke packing their box with bodies than city playing like barcelona!

thegoodjoehunt:
I hope this won't make you feel I am a stark Illiterate. Hence it is difficult for you to use google to confirm opinion of others.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/3270/england-national-team/2011/06/13/2530596/paul-scholes-calls-on-england-to-learn-from-spain-they-are

As for My CITIZENS I told you it takes time and they are going the right route.
I hope you don't think Scholes is a stark Illiterate.

coogar:

then you should have sent this earlier instead of sending the other obscure sports site. now that it's been cleared scholes mentioned this, it's just his opinion and scholes himself is a direct football specialist! he has the widest range of passing in england in the last 15 yrs at least so what does this say about him - hypocrisy?



of course - they are getting there after being eliminated from europe in the group stage twice in a row. they even got beat by united who got stuck in and hit them on a counter. i admire what the spaniards do but that style is only suited to them. asking others to copy what's not their ethos is the beginning of failure! english players can never ever play like the spaniards. the football education is different - the criteria of what scouts look for are different and more importantly, the culture is different! go and read the xavi interview!!!

thegoodjoehunt:

Yes we were knocked out twice but we have twice been grouped in the group of death. Last season, Man Utd was in an easier group and they got knocked out too and thought a lesson on possession football by Bilbao in the Europa League.

I also read Xavi's interview when Scholes retired. Either way everyone coach has its strategy and Every fan has a choice to support which strategy they like.
See ya later.

coogar:

group of death or not - city are clueless in europe!
with the attacking talents you pack, you should have seen off dortmund and ajax easily but you got ploughed and you finished with the lowest points ever with world class talents like silva, aguero, tevez, dzeko, etc. that's a crying shame!

thegoodjoehunt:


With the talents Man Utd have, Man Utd should have whooped Bilbao instead of learning from the Aston Villa of La Liga.

Also we might have good attacking talents but that isn't the truth behind real strength. Omar22 talked about the brilliance of a deep lying midfielder. That is why Mancini signed Garcia and is fighting for Busquets. Our attacking talents need a World Class midfield to reach our true target and we will get there.

Let us see again next season. For now we have a big task to try and win the double.
I love my CITIZENS.

coogar:

united clearly underestimated bilbao like fergie always does in games like these....
he left quite a good number of his best players on the bench against bilbao cos he didn't see the need to keep pursuing europa cup dreams. it's a lose-lose situation in england. if he wins it, then united's rivals would say it's a milk cup achievement. if he loses it, they would still say he got whooped by an inferior team. english teams play more domestic competitions more than any league in europe. fergie was in a title race with city - he felt no need to commit players into the europa league cause!

thegoodjoehunt:

I just hope Mancini cuts the Busquets chase and gets young Oliver Torres of Athletico Madrid and allow us have a Spanish Trio midfield of Garcia, Silva and Torres. With Spanish Dennis Suarez as a reserve. Then we will be ready to battle with the top European teams.

coogar:

you would still get murdered -
it's not about buying players here and there - there's no chemistry in the city squad and a lot of your players don't play for the badge - they play for the cash!

Young Oliver Torres is not just a player, he is the TEAM CHEMISTRY you are talking about. I Hope we get him. That kid is a genius.

thegoodjoehunt:

England conceding 4 goals against Germany, Barcelona beating Manchester United in two Champions League finals, Manchester United aka Kings of England being outplayed by the whooping boys Athletico Bilbao of La Liga, makes you wonder why the whole World isn't playing direct football.

coogar:

you would still get murdered -
it's not about buying players here and there - there's no chemistry in the city squad and a lot of your players don't play for the badge - they play for the cash!

baby-boy:


Out of curiosity what type of football does Ath Madrid play?

thegoodjoehunt:



During Dunga's reign, Brazil started playing like the English people. At the World Cup, they went with more defensive players than attacking ones. They dropped lots of skillful players including Neymar, Ganso and Ronaldhino. That is why Scolari is being brought back to reverse that trend that made a mockery of Brazil.

thegoodjoehunt:


Athletico Madrid is more of a possessive side than a direct side and command lots of great midfielders. As Scholes put it, over here they are unknown.

By the way Deigo Simeone the Coach of Ath. Madrid use to Coach River Plate a highly possessive side. He is a possessive coach.

Almost every team in La Liga plays possessive football. Even teams in the lower league. If you follow Copa Del Rey, you will notice this.