musKeeto:

Are you saying reason and logic can't lead one to commit atrocities or crime?

I've never heard of an ex-muslim who went on jihad. But just for fun could argue that jihadists employ reason and logic to achieve their aim.. Case in point: the 9/11 attacks.

The efforts and time that went into the planning and execution of those attacks can't be simply put down to brainwashing. Those guys were highly intelligent fellows imho (pls, I hope I'm not misunderstoood, just illustrating a point here). You can't say there was no reason (kill the infidels, get cute babes in paradise) or logic. One can be religious and still think and reason in a proper manner.

Flawed logic.

A partitioned mind. Many religious people are logical until it comes to their religion.

Boko Haram will use western weapons to their benefit (holy wars) but then Western education that provided such weapons is bad.

i am soooooooo suprised that some illitrate christians have not started exibiting their lack of intellectual competence by saying africa's woes is due to our "idol worshiping past"

souldust: i am soooooooo suprised that some illitrate christians have not started exibiting their lack of intellectual competence by saying africa's woes is due to our "idol worshiping past"

The atheists/agnostics here have tamed them.

musKeeto:

Are you saying reason and logic can't lead one to commit atrocities or crime?

I've never heard of an ex-muslim who went on jihad. But just for fun could argue that jihadists employ reason and logic to achieve their aim.. Case in point: the 9/11 attacks.

The efforts and time that went into the planning and execution of those attacks can't be simply put down to brainwashing. Those guys were highly intelligent fellows imho (pls, I hope I'm not misunderstoood, just illustrating a point here). You can't say there was no reason (kill the infidels, get cute babes in paradise) or logic. One can be religious and still think and reason in a proper manner.

I agree that crimes can be committed with some logic behind them, but the 9/11 plotters were not logical because at the end they died in a fiery crash of their own creation. How is suicide the result of logical and rational thinking?

Bélla3: You sure you atheist? You sound more agnostic.
I think it is christians that need to change, for they are the ones making up and believing in false doctrines.

Trust me... I am not agnostic. There is Xtianity the religion... and there is the belief in God.

I dont believe in God neither do I believe there is a possibility of the existence of God.

In regards to Xtianity, a simple doctrinal shift might make it more palatable and if practiced accordingly it could be more acceptable.

We are supposed to discuss how to eradicate religion for the betterment of our land, pls dont forget that

@op, apart from religion, there are also other factors holding us back as a race.

Religion makes us lazy, and the prosperity preachers are not helping matters. We are all being bombarded with prosperity messages, believing that once we have paid our tithes and our offerings, miracles upon miracles will befall us, so everyone is waiting for that miracle with no incentive to work hard to achieve success.

Or need we talk about the mindset that God will fight our battles, all we need do is pray. If we want to move forward as a race, please let us learn to fight our battles and leave God out of it.

I honestly believe there is a high conspiracy plan between all this big preachers like Oyedepo, Adeboye, Oyakhilome and co and our leaders, to keep us in ignorance so that they can keep f.ucking us every which way they can. Sorry for the vulgarity.

Also the colonial masters were all about taking our resources and not building us up as a race, and that attitude has transferred itself into a lot of mindsets. Notice how african leaders steal our resources with impunity with nothing to show for.

We as a race are the least united. We have too many tribal conflicts, religious conflicts etc. You need not go far to test that theory. Nairaland should suffice as an example. Posters like Eko ile and co are the ones keeping us from moving forward as a race.
While we are busy fighting amongst ourselves, our leaders are busy stealing our resources.

I will post more reasons later, too lazy to think and type right now.

We black people have been brainwashed to the extent that we(especially our parents) do not realise that we are being seriously raped mentally,spiritually even financially. How could our so called "leaders" keep cheating us and yet not a single protest? We have all been softened by religion. Radicals are never religious people.we need more young nigerians to boycott any religious organization and do these crap politicians dirty! Question them on their day to day activities,make those position a hot seat for whoever sits on them. They are just too bloody comfortable !

The white man must have studied us well before giving us christianity- beceuse he must have noticed we africans worship anything( including stones). Religion was used as a blind fold to steal from us! Now Oyedepo and co have all built a fortune doing the same damn thing!

We all need to be radical if we want to break this heavy yoke .

lol at how the religious avoid this thread.....

onetrack:

I agree that crimes can be committed with some logic behind them, but the 9/11 plotters were not logical because at the end they died in a fiery crash of their own creation. How is suicide the result of logical and rational thinking?

It can be, easily. Your life in exchange for that of loved ones.

Yes op, the infamous problem of evil.

I don't see why we should bother trying to eradicate religion. Some non-sheeple religious need it, why should we ruin it for them? It's their right. But yes, the excesses are at an obscene level here in africa.

@muskeeto: Lemme run around in circles here. If we can find a religion that we agree has more positive than negatives, or better yet, positives that cannot be attained via an anti-religious stance, that would be interesting. I doubt we can though.

And of course, most sheeple wouldn't agree with us on what is 'positive' and thus the suffering and smiling. They're objectives are different, as the you and the op note in various places. They are more interested in getting into heaven, the ultimate cop out, the easy way to attain your desires, in a sense. The rest of us are more interested in building heaven here, which involves less certainty, less security and of course we have to do the work ourselves, as opposed to sky daddy doing everything for us. So, as you've more or else noted, what qualifies as successful to us need not necessary qualify as successful to them, many don't actually see a problem.

Now, if religion is what promises them the after life, planting the seed which makes them 'lazier' here in the real world, then it probably deserves the opprobrium we assign it. But yes, there might be other factors involved. Actually, it's probably some sort of synergy, but it's hard to discard the notion of religion as one of the main components.

Ah, no time to properly explain my point...

onetrack:

I agree that crimes can be committed with some logic behind them, but the 9/11 plotters were not logical because at the end they died in a fiery crash of their own creation. How is suicide the result of logical and rational thinking?

The answer to that question lies in what motivates a soldier to throw himself on a grenade.

Any cause can give rise to fanaticism, no matter how pious the cause may be.

I have my suggestions as to what could be the problem with the African mind, one that goes beyond religion.

Got to rush off for an exam now. Will be back in a few hours...

why do the rational and work hard when you can do the irrational and simply pray your problems away- the tried and tested method. Look at apartheid era South Africa, blacks did not protest, they stayed at home and PRAYED. I think heathens are the problem, they interfer with the faith-wave frequency emitted from Africa, distorting it before it gets to big daddy yaweh.

Heathen: why do the rational and work hard when you can do the irrational and simply pray your problems away- the tried and tested method. Look at apartheid era South Africa, blacks did not protest, they stayed at home and PRAYED. I think heathens are the problem, they interfer with the faith-wave frequency emitted from Africa, distorting it before it gets to big daddy yaweh.

You are the problems of Africa! Have you forgotten how Mandela suffered? I guess you dont even know why he is a legend today.

ooman:

You are the problems of Africa! Have you forgotten how Mandela suffered? I guess you dont even know why he is a legend today.

false, Mandela suffered because the devil realized his prayers where too power- remember, satan is eeeeevile.........................I think you should shop around for a new sarcasm detector.

i have listened to pastors preach and you hear them say so many things about prosperity but they dont charge you to look for knowledge and i ask myself why. But i believe the one who is more aware of the surrounding and knows how nature works is more likely to be prosperous than anyone else.

I really think pastors have to start telling their followers to take interest in knowledge and science.

Heathen: false, Mandela suffered because the devil realized his prayers where too power- remember, satan is eeeeevile.........................I think you should shop around for a new sarcasm detector.

Its a waste of time ever replying your post, i should have realized you've been brainwashed by the god-devil story.

ooman:

Its a waste of time ever replying your post, i should have realized you've been brainwashed by the god-devil story.

He is an atheist just being sarcastic

Logicboy03:


He is an atheist just being sarcastic

Well then, he got me bad!!

musKeeto:
The answer to that question lies in what motivates a soldier to throw himself on a grenade.

Any cause can give rise to fanaticism, no matter how pious the cause may be.

That does not make it logical. Noble, but not logical. Self preservation should be the most rational position, I would argue, unless you act to protect your children to preserve the continuity of your DNA.

wiegraf:

It can be, easily. Your life in exchange for that of loved ones.

Yes op, the infamous problem of evil.

That might be the only circumstance in which preservation your children (your DNA) would be a logical reason to do something which you know will result in your death. Every other reason is either emotional or illogical, in my opinion.

musKeeto:
The answer to that question lies in what motivates a soldier to throw himself on a grenade.

Any cause can give rise to fanaticism, no matter how pious the cause may be.
.

Wrong.

That is a simple logical calculation. Either all of them die or he takes the grenade for his team that he has bonded with.

onetrack:

That does not make it logical. Noble, but not logical. Self preservation should be the most rational position, I would argue, unless you act to protect your children to preserve the continuity of your DNA.

ehem...only half right

Logicboy03:


Wrong.

That is a simple logical calculation. Either all of them die or he takes the grenade for his team that he has bonded with.

onetrack:

That might be the only circumstance in which preservation your children (your DNA) would be a logical reason to do something which you know will result in your death. Every other reason is either emotional or illogical, in my opinion.

I seek the betterment of my race as a whole, how is that illogical, emotional and how is that not self preservation. If my race die of hunger, how can i survive? If Africa remains undeveloped and poor, no matter how rich i am, i am poor.

I alone can't make Africa, one tree cannot make a forest, think about that!

Logicboy03:


Wrong.

That is a simple logical calculation. Either all of them die or he takes the grenade for his team that he has bonded with.

Why him and not someone else?

Another logical calculation could be someone else does it, not him; self-preservation according to ooman...

ooman:

I seek the betterment of my race as a whole, how is that illogical, emotional and how is that not self preservation. If my race die of hunger, how can i survive? If Africa remains undeveloped and poor, no matter how rich i am, i am poor.

I alone can't make Africa, one tree cannot make a forest, think about that!

But if you aren't there to benefit from it, then what would be the point of doing that? I see what you are saying, but I can't say I really accept that as being logical only because, in my view, I do not benefit by killing myself. I am gone, out of existence.

musKeeto:
Why him and not someone else?

Another logical calculation could be someone else does it, not him; self-preservation according to ooman...

Another conundrum- what if he was the first to realise it or the quickest to the grenade? What if he wanted to die as a hero? What if someone had sacrificed his life for him earlier?


Self-preservation is a pure Darwinian morality you dont want to live by.

There is also logic of reciprocal values.

Logicboy03:


Wrong.

That is a simple logical calculation. Either all of them die or he takes the grenade for his team that he has bonded with.

Or he could jump behind one of his friends and let his friend take the impact. Not very nice, but logical. Or the grenade isn't strong enough to kill anyone except someone who is right on top of it. A grenade attack does not have a binary outcome.

onetrack:

Or he could jump behind one of his friends and let his friend take the impact. Not very nice, but logical. Or the grenade isn't strong enough to kill anyone except someone who is right on top of it. A grenade attack does not have a binary outcome.

You must be kidding If I throw a grenade under a table wher you nd 3 pals are drinking beer, you four guys will all die. none of you wilol have legs for sure



#Call of duty things

Logicboy03:


Another conundrum- what if he was the first to realise it or the quickest to the grenade? What if he wanted to die as a hero? What if someone had sacrificed his life for him earlier?


Self-preservation is a pure Darwinian morality you dont want to live by.

There is also logic of reciprocal values.

I also do not like the idea of a purely 'survival of the fittest' morality, however, to me, engaging in a heroic action which virtually guarantees your death is pointless. I don't mind being a hero but I'd much prefer to be a living hero than a dead one, which means I could see myself taking deadly risks to be 'heroic', but not one in which I have an overwhelming chance of dying.

Logicboy03:

You must be kidding If I throw a grenade under a table wher you nd 3 pals are drinking beer, you four guys will all die. none of you wilol have legs for sure



#Call of duty things

Depends on the path of the shrapnel. Death or amputation is not guaranteed.

Logicboy03:

You must be kidding If I throw a grenade under a table wher you nd 3 pals are drinking beer, you four guys will all die. none of you wilol have legs for sure



#Call of duty things

That's not the bone of contention here.

In a given situation, why would a soldier throw himself on a grenade to give his fellow soldiers a chance?

Why do we consider that noble or heroic and view that of suicide bombers as stupid. Is it because we 'sense' they are evil?


We're going a bit off topic at this point, but I hope this brings to light a few posts I hope to make onwards...

onetrack:

Depends on the path of the shrapnel. Death or amputation is not guaranteed.

Amputation up to the torso is guaranteed. I have a friend that actually lost his friends in Iraq that way. He saw his friends get blown up drinking coffee in a bar.