mba emeka: So many times and in many situations Gods children find themselves looking for the spectacular thereby missing the supernatural. What's to say that if the child was taken immediately to the hospital he/she wouldn't have died? That's the same rigmarolic answer there.

Parents prayed, neighbors came, the child survived and yet you can't see that something miraculous took place? Would you have rathered that the child cough seven times then immediately warm up? That's a carnal way of thinking. . .no offence.

At some point Jesus commanded straight healings for blind people and at some other point he spat on the floor, made clay and still used it to heal a blind man.

Let him bother about the way (spectacular healings, use of doctors, neighbors etc) all I want to see is the result and in this case the child survived. Shikena!

God be praised!

Ihedinobi: @Area boy

The beginning and end of the "disbeliever's" trouble with God is that He won't fit the little boxes man makes for Him. Whether or not you believe that God exists, I'm sure you appreciate the concept of Necessity and that of Contingency. If God exists, He'd be a Necessary Being rather than a Contingent Being. That means that He would not do or undo, say or un-say, anything at all, literally exist at all at anyone's behest. Everything would exist at His behest instead.

That means that arguments against His existence that are built upon the idea that God exists for man's convenience are essentially non-arguments. They create a definition of God that suits their purpose and proceed to attack it.

Yahweh is held by the Christian to be not only Sustainer of Life but Sovereign Lord of it as well. The Christian believes that he can trust God in and for everything. The Christian holds that he does not know everything nor does he understand everything but that God does and that God can be taken at His Word. For this reason, he holds that whatever he may go through, there is a good reason which he will learn at some point for which he must endure or enjoy it, as the case may be.

The Christian does not think that God exists for his convenience. In fact, he does not think that God exists for him at all. He is positive that it is he himself who exists for God, that his being is contingent upon God's Own. That is how the picture is. So he does not pray to make God do things that suit his convenience. He prays to get into agreement with God's Will about his life. Since he believes that God knows everything and understands everything and that God has a good end in mind for him and also that God has given him the choice to cooperate with Him in achieving God's End for him or resist Him, the whole point of prayer for him is communication with God, to share his desires and hopes with Him and have Him share His Own Desires and Hopes with him. By this, he will learn steadily to cooperate with God toward achieving God's Dreams for him. The Christian does not consider prayer to be a magic wand that gives him anything he thinks is good for him. He thinks of it as hanging out with a really good friend, dad and comrade. All that is what God is to the Christian.

So it is erroneous to treat prayer like a tool of God-persuasion which results either in getting what you want and thus proving something about God to you or in not getting it and thus proving another. That is what aliens to the House of God do, not what children of the House do.

dvdon:
Not all kids come from God, the devil has a way of possessing Gods creation in the womb and sometyms give children he has little powers too. The question is that, how did d couple get there kids, n wat is there family background like?

money-hungry :

shut up n sit down!

money-hungry :

shut up n sit down!

Ihedinobi: @Area boy

The beginning and end of the "disbeliever's" trouble with God is that He won't fit the little boxes man makes for Him. Whether or not you believe that God exists, I'm sure you appreciate the concept of Necessity and that of Contingency. If God exists, He'd be a Necessary Being rather than a Contingent Being. That means that He would not do or undo, say or un-say, anything at all, literally exist at all at anyone's behest. Everything would exist at His behest instead.

That means that arguments against His existence that are built upon the idea that God exists for man's convenience are essentially non-arguments. They create a definition of God that suits their purpose and proceed to attack it.

Yahweh is held by the Christian to be not only Sustainer of Life but Sovereign Lord of it as well. The Christian believes that he can trust God in and for everything. The Christian holds that he does not know everything nor does he understand everything but that God does and that God can be taken at His Word. For this reason, he holds that whatever he may go through, there is a good reason which he will learn at some point for which he must endure or enjoy it, as the case may be.

The Christian does not think that God exists for his convenience. In fact, he does not think that God exists for him at all. He is positive that it is he himself who exists for God, that his being is contingent upon God's Own. That is how the picture is. So he does not pray to make God do things that suit his convenience. He prays to get into agreement with God's Will about his life. Since he believes that God knows everything and understands everything and that God has a good end in mind for him and also that God has given him the choice to cooperate with Him in achieving God's End for him or resist Him, the whole point of prayer for him is communication with God, to share his desires and hopes with Him and have Him share His Own Desires and Hopes with him. By this, he will learn steadily to cooperate with God toward achieving God's Dreams for him. The Christian does not consider prayer to be a magic wand that gives him anything he thinks is good for him. He thinks of it as hanging out with a really good friend, dad and comrade. All that is what God is to the Christian.

So it is erroneous to treat prayer like a tool of God-persuasion which results either in getting what you want and thus proving something about God to you or in not getting it and thus proving another. That is what aliens to the House of God do, not what children of the House do.

victor-NR-ceo:

U did twist the Word(bible) the best way u could to comfort yourself and fellow folks,though,however way u may try u can't change the fact that prayers in faith must be answered,to support this motion,jesus did compare how his father(Jehovah) grants prayer request(esp. of faith) to how a child persistently requesting from his (biological)father and the father showing emotions n thereby granting the child his request.

onyfrank: .
Y wud i shut up. Is anything hard 4 u 2 understand in ma word?
I on my own do nt exist, bt God is existing as myself

Ihedinobi:

So, can you show exactly how that post of mine failed to show that prayers involve making requesta and receiving answers?

Ihedinobi: @Area boy

The Christian does not consider prayer to be a magic wand that gives him anything he thinks is good for him. He thinks of it as hanging out with a really good friend, dad and comrade. All that is what God is to the Christian.
So it is erroneous to treat prayer like a tool of God-persuasion which results either in getting what you want and thus proving something about God to you or in not getting it and thus proving another. That is what aliens to the House of God do, not what children of the House do.

manmustwac: @InspiredByGod
This story is somehow similar to that of the parents of the 3 month old baby I would appreciate if you read it
Nurse who threw her hands in the air and begged for Jesus to help as baby suffered heart attack is struck off

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2057543/Nurse-threw-hands-air-begged-Jesus-help-baby-suffered-heart-attack-struck-off.html

nurse who threw her hands into the air and begged for Jesus to help as a baby suffered a heart attack has been thrown out of the profession.

Omolayo Abayomi 'panicked' when the child, who suffered from a chronic lung disease, turned blue and stopped breathing in his cot at home.

The 51-year-old called for divine intervention more than 20 times before the vulnerable boy's mother told her to 'shut up'.

'The nurse was constantly saying "Jesus help him" and waving her arms around,' a hearing was told.

The nurse 'provided wholly inadequate care' by leaving the frantic mother to resuscitate her lifeless son, while the father dialled 999.

Abayomi was found guilty of a string of charges by the Nursing and Midwifery Council at a hearing in central London.

Sydney Topping, for Abayomi, insisted his client's behaviour had represented no more than a 'bad day at the office' and urged the panel to let her off with a caution.

'Once in a while you have a bad day at the office,' he said.

'I would suggest that on April 8 the registrant had a bad day at the office. It was no worse than that. She has bounced back since then.'

 

mazaje:

You are the one that is actually creating a god that really has nothing to do with the god of the bible you claim to believe in, you then go ahead and defend such a god of your own conception. . .

Which christian EXACTLY arte you talking about?. . .Your OWN personal conception of who a christian should be?

. . .Firstly even the bible clearly states how prayers are supposed to be carried out and their corresponding results non of the nonsense you have typed is even biblical. . .It is clearly stated in the bible. . .All you need is JUST to BELIEVE and god's will which is always for the good will be done. . .The bible clearly states how prayers are supposed to work according to the words people wrote that Jesus spoke himself. . .

Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Ask and you will receive. What could be simpler than that?

Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Matthew 18:19 Jesus says it again:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.



The bible clearly shows that you do not know what you are talking about. . .

Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. . .

Prayers is actually what is recommended in the bible for people that are sick not hospital or drugs . . .

Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. James 5:14

I know its easy to throw the bible under the bus and claim it never says prayers are to be answered according to how people say it

. . .Relegate prayers to "its just a communication with god" bla bla bla. . .The bible it self is VERY CLEAR on how prayers are suppose to work. . .You clearly do not know what you are talking about. . .You are just telling people what they should believe in not what the bible actually says. . .

If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21]
If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14]
Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7]
Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20]
Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24]

The question, therefore, is simple. . . Are Jesus' statements in the bible true or false?

mazaje:

Nothing you wrote in in your reply to Area boy is even biblical because the bible clearly states how prayers are supposed to work. . .It even goes on to talk about the will of god for those that believe in him and ask him things through prayers. . .

Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!







Again I ask which christian?. . .Because even the bible says prayers are magic. . .If you truly believe and you ask it will be given to you or done as you ask. . .I know you will say people ask amiss but asking for healing for your child is NOT asking amiss. . .Because even Jesus said those that believe in him will do greater things than he did. . We were told he was a great miracle worker that went about healing people through magic including those that do not even believe in him. . .

What is erroneous is throwing the bible under the bus and saying thigs that are not biblical so that mythology can be promoted. . .

Ihedinobi:

So, can you show exactly how that post of mine failed to show that prayers involve making requesta and receiving answers?

Ihedinobi: @Area boy

So it is erroneous to treat prayer like a tool of God-persuasion which results either in getting what you want and thus proving something about God to you or in not getting it and thus proving another.

Ihedinobi:

Lol. Atheists and their claims to expertise on religion. Typical.



Lol. Perhaps you can explain what it means to say what a Christian should be. It sounds just as odd to me as saying what a tree should be. There is something that a Christian is and something that he is not. What a thing is is what it is in its most natural state, in its unguarded moments. And I have described what the Christian is.

So what exactly is your point, man? Did I insinuate that prayer does not involve asking for things and receiving them? Point out where I did, if you're of that opinion.


Besides, how does any of those passages you cited convey the thought that God exists for our convenience? Did you notice the conditions Jesus attached to the requests? One has to ask in His Name or on the strength of the Father's recognition of Him which means the asker cannot hope for a favorable response when his request contradicts the Character of Christ? One has to ask in Faith, and when you consider that Faith hinges on what God says or declares, then requests made in Faith must be understood to be requests made in consonance with God's revealed Will. Prayers of agreement eliminate selfish interest. Two believers or more in prayer concerning any given issue make possible the removal of selfishness in requests.

So how does that quote preclude the use of medical science, my friend? Are prayer and medicine mutually exclusive?

Such nonsense. Where was this claim made?

Lol. I'm yet to see how any of those passages makes prayer a magic wand. I see conditions attached to the promises of answers to prayer, conditions that check the sort of abuse godless people would immediately jump on. Jesus made it clear: ask what I would ask, ask what the Father has promised to give, ask not merely to swell your possessions but to enter into the bounty of God's goodness and you will always have what you ask for. However, ask for your own selfish gain and you will have nothing.

Now if a man communes with God in prayer to discuss with Him as with his loving Father, he will still make requests for specific things and receive them if he asks in the character of Jesus Christ. If he asks in the wrong character, he will still get an answer: NO. Simples.

victor-NR-ceo:


Check this.


^^ is precisely where u did fail to show that... . As for the affiliate write-up,u were just pointless because many claimed to have gotten divine direction on their path and yet they failed on this(divine instruction) path(e.g pst. Tunde bakare's presidential runz).I rest ma case here, Marzeje has answered you in ma potential words.

Ihedinobi:

Lol. Atheists and their claims to expertise on religion. Typical.



Lol. Perhaps you can explain what it means to say what a Christian should be. It sounds just as odd to me as saying what a tree should be. There is something that a Christian is and something that he is not. What a thing is is what it is in its most natural state, in its unguarded moments. And I have described what the Christian is.



So what exactly is your point, man? Did I insinuate that prayer does not involve asking for things and receiving them? Point out where I did, if you're of that opinion.

Besides, how does any of those passages you cited convey the thought that God exists for our convenience? Did you notice the conditions Jesus attached to the requests? One has to ask in His Name or on the strength of the Father's recognition of Him which means the asker cannot hope for a favorable response when his request contradicts the Character of Christ? One has to ask in Faith, and when you consider that Faith hinges on what God says or declares, then requests made in Faith must be understood to be requests made in consonance with God's revealed Will. Prayers of agreement eliminate selfish interest. Two believers or more in prayer concerning any given issue make possible the removal of selfishness in requests.



So how does that quote preclude the use of medical science, my friend? Are prayer and medicine mutually exclusive?



Such nonsense. Where was this claim made?



Lol. I'm yet to see how any of those passages makes prayer a magic wand. I see conditions attached to the promises of answers to prayer, conditions that check the sort of abuse godless people would immediately jump on. Jesus made it clear: ask what I would ask, ask what the Father has promised to give, ask not merely to swell your possessions but to enter into the bounty of God's goodness and you will always have what you ask for. However, ask for your own selfish gain and you will have nothing.

Now if a man communes with God in prayer to discuss with Him as with his loving Father, he will still make requests for specific things and receive them if he asks in the character of Jesus Christ. If he asks in the wrong character, he will still get an answer: NO. Simples.

Ihedinobi: @mazaje

As usual, your post is a heap of nonsense and excuses and cop-ou
ts, but I'm feeling generous enough to answer it. But it'll be later.

inspiredbyGOD:.:
Okay, I know this question sounds stupid but i beg you guys to hear my case first. I am asking this because of an event that happened yesterday at the place I reside.
I was up studying in the early hours of the morning when I heard heavy prayers from the neighbours next door. It was a family of just three; the man, his wife and their three months old baby. Their baby had fallen ill the previous week and the situation had become worse on this particular day (this is actually their third child, two have already died before). According to the mother, she woke up to find out that the baby was becoming extremely cold. She woke the husband and they started to pray immediately (I don't know why they decided this was the best thing to do). They prayed for close to two hours without getting any significant result. It wasn't long before I heard the woman scream '' make una come help me oo, my pikin wan die again'' the neighbours head her cries and most of them rushed outside making frantic effort to save the child's life. Thankfully, they were able to avert yet another death. These are my questions
*Does God exist?
* If God exists, why did He refuse to hear the prayers of the couple?
* Does God not perform miracles anymore?
* or is this a test to see if they would lose faith?(they might have not lost theirs but mine is becoming shaky)

Ihedinobi:

Sad story. I'm glad for them that they didn't have to deal with another tragedy.

However, this story typifies the state of many believers who have not fully appreciated the meaning of being in the world and not of it, or using the world and not abusing it. Ordinarily, the parents should have sought medical help immediately. It would not have prevented them from praying. But perhaps a wrong grasp of Scripture was responsinle for their neglecting to do that. As the Scriptures say, my people perish for lack of knowledge.

Finally, it is a real pity that any thinking person should regard God's existence as questionable only on the strength of the reality of tragedies. That is tragic in itself because it suggests that God exists only to prevent or cancel out pain which is a really curious assumption. If God exists at all, it makes all the sense in the world that pain exists because pain tells you that there is something better to reach for. And the word 'better' exists because there is such a thing as the Absolute, the very best in condition, that pain tells you to reach for. 'Better' speaks of graduation towards that best which is God. If God doesn't exist, what is pain?



Would you take my word for it?



Why do you assume that He refused?



Would you take my word for it?



Perhaps it was a test to grow their faith, perhaps it was a test to show you if your own faith was real. Does God have the right to do things according to His inscrutable Wisdom and explain Himself to you only when He decides that you are best served to know?

Ihedinobi: ^^^ How were they not?

victor-NR-ceo:

Don't give back to me ma question,ma question explicitly give a glimpse of ma potential answer to it. U jes answer ma question? AND STOP DRIBBLING.
I'll leave u to ur opinions,u are (too) stubbornly ignorant to c the light.
As regards,u OYO.

Obi1kenobi:

Chei, see the ultimate promulgator of sophist logic. For your mind now, you've actually made a load of sense with this verbose dribble.

mazaje:

You are the one actually typing rubbish not me. By the way you better come down from that imaginary high horse you think you are riding . I do not take all the nonsense you write here seriously so how can you use the word generous to answer to my post. You delude your self by thinking any body takes the utter junk you type here seriously . Every body sees through your sophism except you becuse you are too deluded .

Ihedinobi:

Sure, you have the right to type even if only to read your own post By the way, claims that a person's arguments are fallacious still don't make them so. Technology hasn't evolved up to the point that your keyboard/-pad does the tedious job of exposing the fallacy(ies) in the argument without your input



Sure you don't take me seriously. That's why you went hunting for Bible verses to shut me up That's why you felt obliged to straighten me out in a conversation I was having with somebody else, not you.

And that high horse of mine may be high because it really is. Why do you want me to get off it? Because it would suit you better if I was unable to see the nonsense in your posts? Also, if you can see through my "sophism", you shouldn't find it too difficult to show the errors hidden in the "seemingly clever" arguments I make. Claiming that everybody sees it does not make it true that there is a fallacy in my arguments, you know.

Still going to answer your post though, but not now

Ihedinobi:

Sure you don't take me seriously. That's why you went hunting for Bible verses to shut me up That's why you felt obliged to straighten me out in a conversation I was having with somebody else, not you.

And that high horse of mine may be high because it really is. Why do you want me to get off it? Because it would suit you better if I was unable to see the nonsense in your posts? Also, if you can see through my "sophism", you shouldn't find it too difficult to show the errors hidden in the "seemingly clever" arguments I make. Claiming that everybody sees it does not make it true that there is a fallacy in my arguments, you know.

Still going to answer your post though, but not now

mazaje:

Actually you over impress your self by thinking the nonsense you type means anything to any one to the extent that you use the words you are generous to reply. . .You can deny all you want but the nonsense you typed was clearly shown to you by me and others here. . .The point is simple. . .According to the bible the case of the baby whose parents prayed for her to be healed is supposed to be answered period. . .The ONLY condition that Jesus gave for such prayers to be answered is belief. . .If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. . .You keep talking about things that are not even biblical like God's will when the bible has clearly stated and talked about god's will for his alleged children it says his will for them is to prosper. . .There is NO where in the bible where it says god's will for his children is to suffer pains, sickness and premature death if there is then pls show me. . .You need to read most of the nonsense you type before posting. . . As for answering my post, just say that you are still looking for sophist apologetics materials on the internet to copy from and post as "your" reply. . .

Obi1kenobi:
To be fair, your sophist posting style suggests close-minded bigotry and a fair bit of conceit and delusion. Exposing your fallacies seem rather pointless. It's tantamount to flogging a dead horse.

mazaje:

How can your definition of who are christian is be supported by the bible. . .

What exactly are you on about here?. . .And where did I say that god exist for people's convenience? You are just making things up and running commentary on them. . .I repeat the bible is very clear on how prayers are supposed to work. . .the ONLY condition is belief and faith

. . .If prayer truly works then the child in the OP should have been healed when his parents asked. . .

The parents came together prayed and asked god to heal their sick child. . .Many have done that any way and their kids ended up dead. . .Again from the bible. . .

Matthew 18:19 Jesus says it again:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered [b]in my name, there am I in the midst of them[/b].

The bible has already talked about the will of god for his people. . .In other verses it clearly states that the will of god for his people is that they will prosper. . .You keep talking about this elusive will of god as if it is not already outlined in the bible. . .If you pray and you believe it will be done. . .If you are sick and you pray with belief in your heart for healing what is selfish about that?. . .According to the bible if such prayer is offered it will always be answered. . .Or is your own god's will for people to suffer sickness, pains, sorrow and premature death?. . .Is it not the same Jesus that said what ever you ask in his name with belief it will be done and who ever believes in him will do greater things than he did?. . .What exactly are you on about?. .

Where does it include medical science?. .

Where in the bible did Jesus tell any body to go to the hospital when the person is sick?. .

.The passage in james told people who are sick to go to the church elders for prayers not hospitals. .

.Prayers and medicine are completely mutually exclusive. . .While medicine is always curing people from their illnesses, prayers alone has never been shown or demonstrated to cure anybody even though that is what the bible recommends. after all when people were sick and came to Jesus and his desciples, they were all prayed for and healed magically. . .Even the bible recommends magical prayers when sick not medicine. . .

In every thing that you wrote. . .

The condition is belief and thats all. . .Again. . .The bible clearly says if you belief then prayer is a magic wand. . .

Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

If you are sick and you pray a prayer of belief that you will be healed, then according to the bible you will be healed, no drugs , nothing, just belief. . .PURE magic. . .And how is asking for a sick child to be healed asking out of selfishness?. . .If prayers work the child in question will be immediately healed since the parents truly believed and resulted to prayer as the first option. . .



So asking for a sick child to be healed through Jesus is asking through the wrong character or what?. . .If prayers actually work as the bible puts it, we will not be here having this conversation. . .There is NO evidence what so ever to show that those who pray to god for healing recover faster that those who do not. . . .No evidence at all to show that prayer ALONE heals any body at all, even though that is what the bible recommends. . .

Area_boy:

I'll take only the bolded and elaborate on it how this particular way of thinking was the ignition of me losing my faith in Christianity or any form of organised religion.o

Back in the late part of secondary school and early first year in university in Naija, I used to be in the scripture union. We always had a policy we went by which was fairly simple and made a lot of sense if you don't think profoundly about it.

"Pray like it all depends on prayer, and study like it all depends on studying". This quote clearly contradicts itself but I wouldn't want to go down that line of argument for now. Basically what we are looking at here is two different actions that will give the same result (success in exams) if combined. what it doesn't make clear is the chance that either of the actions may actually be give the same result without the other or fail without the other.

much later when my faith was slipping, I studied for my exams like I always did without any prayer and my results came out at the same average i normally have. I wasn't bold enough to try praying alone without studying but we all know how that would have ended.

I asked myself, If prayer alone will surely fail me in my school but studying alone keeps me going then what was the point of prayer? Quickly my scripture union mindset directed me to the Lords prayer...

"Thy will be done".

This single phrase alone makes every form of "request" prayer pointless and useless. All we needed to do was give thanks and move on. So, in everything we should give thanks. Basically if you lose all your kids to disease and death, all you should to is thank god. This presented another problem to me, "He loves me, will lift me up, will protect me form every evil.....etc".. Why then do people that believe in him with all their heart still have terrible things happen to them? the questions become endless.

Until I began to take an objective view of the word without all that has been indoctrinated in me all my life did I start to see the problems involved in believing in the Christian god particularly. etc...

Before I get carried away with my life and how I lost my faith, I just want to add something to the sad story above. The family got indoctrinated to believe that they can "ask" and it shall be given, "seek" and they shall find, "knock" and the door will be opened, "bind" on earth and it will be bound in heaven.. "where two or three are gathered in his name that he will be present".

With all these, I can clearly see why grown adults will put their infant child's life at risk by uttering gibberish for TWO HOURS rather than running down to a clinic. Sad

I'm not here to tell you whether god does exist or not. I can only encourage you to drop all prejudice and observe all around you with an objective mind. whatever conclusion you come up with is fine, as long as you are deeply honest to yourself.


I for one will tell you the biblical god was made up by men just like us here but a little more ignorant than we are just to control more men like others that are even more ignorant. Is our idea of a "GOD" flawed? I strongly think so.

Ihedinobi:

Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9

One who has the Spirit of Christ is a Christian. He possesses the Nature of Christ and thus can be explained by Christ. How the Bible represents Christ as being is how the Christian too is.

Well, we are most certainly agreed on what the conditions are. The problem is that you don't know what faith means. And I have explained it So you are to show what's wrong with the explanation if you disagree with it.

Why? Where does it say that prayer only works to give the petitioner whatever they wish without qualification?

Well, they must be gathered in His Name, that is, in agreement with His Character, in His Spirit, in His Authority, for their petitions to be honored by the Father. There must be that about them that assures the Father of the worthiness of their petitions.

Well, it seems to be you who insist on defining for God what prosperity must mean and what it mustn't, not me. Because God is all-knowing and infinitely wise, the believer is content to be wrong about what he judges prosperity and health to be. He is aware that when he supposes that it is good for him that, say, his ailing child be healed and given back to him, it may not actually be when every possible thing has been considered. And he knows that he lacks the ability to consider all things whereas God does not. So he trusts God to answer His plea according to His Own more perfect and more trustworthy understanding of good.

Where does it exclude it?
Where did He tell them to not go?
Does it tell them to not go to the hospital?

Nonsense. You're arguing from silence. That the Scriptures did not say that the sick should go to the hospitals is no reason to argue that they in fact hold that sick people should not go to the hospitals. That's a really inane conclusion. That people came to Jesus to be healed does not mean that He wouldn't have had them use the medical sciences. You're pitifully wrong.

Interesting claim you make that medicine is always curing the sick. Very interesting considering that there are multitide illnesses modern medicine is still stomped by. As it is, no viral sickness yet has a cure. And as I have said, the fact that some people have failed to receive healing as a result of prayer does not prove that prayer does not work because the purpose of prayer is not to always give the petitioner whatever he demands.

Yeah, if one believes, it is God that they believe, if they believe God, then it is their confidence that He can be trusted. If they think that He can be trusted as God, they will ask according to what they know He is pleased to give. If they think that He can be trusted as God, when they ask for things, they'll accept any answer He gices as being sufficient for what they asked. All of His answers will accomplish what they were asking for even if it appeared to be a refusal.

In short, prayers made in faith are prayers made out of trust in God's ability to give what is needed and is best for the petitioner rather than prayers made to male God act in a certain way.

Nonsense. Prayer is not a magical incantation to control outcomes. Prayer is simply communication with God. And it is part of that communication to ask God for things and to hear Him respond according to His omniscience, omnipotence and love for the petitioner. Nowhere do the Scriptures hold that God is a magician for hire and that prayer is His pay or whatever.