Bélla3: AM LOST ON THE BOLD.

No problem girl. Like I said before, sometimes these things take time and effort.

Lets try this, you familiar with the story of Joseph?

-sold into slavery by his brothers as a young man
-falsely accused & thrown in jail for years
-finds favor with the Pharoah
-becomes a great man in Egypt

After Joseph's father died, his brothers became afraid that Joseph would turn on them for selling him into slavery decades ago. This is what Joseph said to them (read the story and pay attention to the portions in bold):

Gen 50: 14 After burying Jacob, Joseph returned to Egypt with his brothers and all who had accompanied him to his father’s burial. 15 But now that their father was dead, Joseph’s brothers became fearful. “Now Joseph will show his anger and pay us back for all the wrong WE did to him,” they said.

16 So they sent this message to Joseph: “Before your father died, he instructed us 17 to say to you: ‘Please forgive your brothers for the great wrong they did to you—for their sin in treating you so cruelly.’ So we, the servants of the God of your father, beg you to forgive our sin.” When Joseph received the message, he broke down and wept. 18 Then his brothers came and threw themselves down before Joseph. “Look, we are your slaves!” they said.

19 But Joseph replied, “Don’t be afraid of me. Am I God, that I can punish you? 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people. 21 No, don’t be afraid. I will continue to take care of you and your children.” So he reassured them by speaking kindly to them.

See the key points...Joseph's brothers clearly admit the wrong-doing was theirs, they chose to do evil to Joseph. They freely exercised their freewill. And in Joseph's reply he says this so beautifully: "You intended to harm me, but God meant it for good".

^think about this sister. God was omniscient in knowing that Joseph's brothers would sell him into slavery BUT God did not stop or prevent it. Instead, God worked within the evil choices they made and eventually fulfiled His purpose of blessing Joseph and saving countless lives through him. Along the way so many other evil things happened to Joseph but they all aligned in such a way that resulted in an audience with the Pharoah and he found favor that changed his life. This is how freewill & God's ultimate purpose works. Hope that helps . And don't worry if you don't get it...that is what the Holy Spirit is for, to communicate godly truths that words will never be able to.
Blessings girl.

JeSoul: No problem girl. Like I said before, sometimes these things take time and effort.

Lets try this, you familiar with the story of Joseph?

-sold into slavery by his brothers as a young man
-falsely accused & thrown in jail for years
-finds favor with the Pharoah
-becomes a great man in Egypt

After Joseph's father died, his brothers became afraid that Joseph would turn on them for selling him into slavery decades ago. This is what Joseph said to them (read the story and pay attention to the portions in bold):

Gen 50: 14 After burying Jacob, Joseph returned to Egypt with his brothers and all who had accompanied him to his father’s burial. 15 But now that their father was dead, Joseph’s brothers became fearful. “Now Joseph will show his anger and pay us back for all the wrong WE did to him,” they said.

16 So they sent this message to Joseph: “Before your father died, he instructed us 17 to say to you: ‘Please forgive your brothers for the great wrong they did to you—for their sin in treating you so cruelly.’ So we, the servants of the God of your father, beg you to forgive our sin.” When Joseph received the message, he broke down and wept. 18 Then his brothers came and threw themselves down before Joseph. “Look, we are your slaves!” they said.

19 But Joseph replied, “Don’t be afraid of me. Am I God, that I can punish you? 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people. 21 No, don’t be afraid. I will continue to take care of you and your children.” So he reassured them by speaking kindly to them.

See the key points...Joseph's brothers clearly admit the wrong-doing was theirs, they chose to do evil to Joseph. They freely exercised their freewill. And in Joseph's reply he says this so beautifully: "You intended to harm me, but God meant it for good".

^think about this sister. God was omniscient in knowing that Joseph's brothers would sell him into slavery BUT God did not stop or prevent it. Instead, God worked within the evil choices they made and eventually fulfiled His purpose of blessing Joseph and saving countless lives through him. Along the way so many other evil things happened to Joseph but they all aligned in such a way that resulted in an audience with the Pharoah and he found favor that changed his life. This is how freewill & God's ultimate purpose works. Hope that helps . And don't worry if you don't get it...that is what the Holy Spirit is for, to communicate godly truths that words will never be able to.
Blessings girl.

Using Joseph's sale into slavery to explain God working within evil choices to fulfill his purpose?


Explain how the sale of our forefathers by European christian slave traders could fit in with God working within evil choices.

Or better yet how does it chaange the fact that God saw Joseph's brothers going into evil and allowed it. He predestined their evil, they were predestined to sin by selling their brothers. That is not freewill

Bella

JeSoul: Nah...its great to get input from different perspectives - the more dividers are present, the more morsels are cut into pieces for us all to chew & be edified . I always enjoy your take no prisoners approach to issues, very refreshing!

Why, thank you, sis. I'm much encouraged.

Seems there is still work to be done, however.

Edit: I think I should say though that your last post really went home on the issue. But we'll see if it made things easier for our sis when she comments on it.

Logicboy03:


You arent married, are you?

#bump#

Ihedinobi:

Why, thank you, sis. I'm much encouraged.

Seems there is still work to be done, however.

Edit: I think I should say though that your last post really went home on the issue. But we'll see if it made things easier for our sis when she comments on it.

I am starting to believe in the holy spirit after watching you guyz


but this holy spirit is the spirit of delusion. How can you guyz type nonsense after nonsense (nonsense because your fellow christian sister sees the faulty logic in your posts to her and you cant convince her)but still claim that your posts "hit home"



omniscience and freewill can not exist together. End of story.

^^^

At least I get good humor from having you on this forum. You are not totally useless you know

Qkeyxyz: ^^^

At least I get good humor from having you on this forum. You are not totally useless you know

Did you come up with this post on your own freewill or God foresaw it ages ago that you will ridicule an atheist?

^^^
Not mocking you. I'm enjoying your post.

Qkeyxyz: ^^^
Not mocking you. I'm enjoying your post.

One can never be sure


Try to answer the question, anyways

Bélla3: I'd be lying if i say i do, but, ISORIT.

Ok. I can only answer specifics now. So if you've got specific questions about what I said, I'll answer them.

Logicboy03:



I am starting to believe in the holy spirit after watching you guyz


but this holy spirit is the spirit of delusion. How can you guyz type nonsense after nonsense (nonsense because your fellow christian sister sees the faulty logic in your posts to her and you cant convince her)but still claim that your posts "hit home"



omniscience and freewill can not exist together. End of story.

Every boy is allowed his favorite wet dream.

This thread was helpful to me, actually. Thanks a lot.

Bélla3: Lately i have been doing alot of thinking because of this question: 'how can God give freewill, at thesame time be omniscient (ie be know all things- past, present and future)?'

From a totally different perspective,let's look at the choices God made with his free will.


He chose with his free will to create angels he knew would rebel and become satan and his demons, knowing ahead of time they would do that.


He chose to create a tree that he didn't want people to eat from all the while knowing they would.


He chose to punish people with sin and death for eating from a tree he chose to make all the while knowing they would.


He chose to create a talking serpent and to let it tempt Adam and Eve knowing that they would fail the test.


He chose to favor Abel's sacrifice over Cain's knowing this would result in Cain killing Abel.

Being omniscient he knew all these thing's would happen before he did any of them. And he knew they would lead to PAIN, SIN,SUFFERING AND DEATH. All this as a result of him exercising his free will. So why does he think free will is a good thing that all people and angels should have?

cyrexx:

From a totally different perspective,let's look at the choices God made with his free will.


He chose with his free will to create angels he knew would rebel and become satan and his demons, knowing ahead of time they would do that.


He chose to create a tree that he didn't want people to eat from all the while knowing they would.


He chose to punish people with sin and death for eating from a tree he chose to make all the while knowing they would.


He chose to create a talking serpent and to let it tempt Adam and Eve knowing that they would fail the test.


He chose to favor Abel's sacrifice over Cain's knowing this would result in Cain killing Abel.

Being omniscient he knew all these thing's would happen before he did any of them. And he knew they would lead to PAIN, SIN,SUFFERING AND DEATH. All this as a result of him exercising his free will. So why does he think free will is a good thing that all people and angels should have?

I throway salute!!

cyrexx:

From a totally different perspective,let's look at the choices God made with his free will.


He chose with his free will to create angels he knew would rebel and become satan and his demons, knowing ahead of time they would do that.


He chose to create a tree that he didn't want people to eat from all the while knowing they would.


He chose to punish people with sin and death for eating from a tree he chose to make all the while knowing they would.


He chose to create a talking serpent and to let it tempt Adam and Eve knowing that they would fail the test.


He chose to favor Abel's sacrifice over Cain's knowing this would result in Cain killing Abel.

Being omniscient he knew all these thing's would happen before he did any of them. And he knew they would lead to PAIN, SIN,SUFFERING AND DEATH. All this as a result of him exercising his free will. So why does he think free will is a good thing that all people and angels should have?

@bolded: sure He knew that they would lead to pain, sin, suffering and death, but He also knew that they wouldn't end there but would ultimately result in Life, Holiness, Rejoicing and Comfort.

Ihedinobi:

@bolded: sure He knew that they would lead to pain, sin, suffering and death, but He also knew that they wouldn't end there but would ultimately result in Life, Holiness, Rejoicing and Comfort.

You must be joking.


The muslims and hausa pagans that have died from Boko Haam bombings how are they in holiness and comfort?

They lived in poverty in the north and now in death, they are in hell according to your religion. So what? Where is the comfort and holiness from that? God foresaw their everlasting suffering in two lives (earth + hell) but did nothing.


Mtchew

Ihedinobi:

@bolded: sure He knew that they would lead to pain, sin, suffering and death, but He also knew that they wouldn't end there but would ultimately result in Life, Holiness, Rejoicing and Comfort.

pls this is religious section and if u want to joke, we have a section for that.

what do u mean by 'he also knew that they wouldnt end there but would... blah blah blah'

oh please free will has sent millions to hell and a handful to heaven... i wonder how God feels about that. can u pls ask him? since u seem to b in constant communication with him

ARareGem: This thread was helpful to me, actually. Thanks a lot.

Glad it was useful to you sis . Stay blessed!

Ihedinobi:

Why, thank you, sis. I'm much encouraged.

Seems there is still work to be done, however.

Edit: I think I should say though that your last post really went home on the issue. But we'll see if it made things easier for our sis when she comments on it.

My brother no wahala jare. I do have one wish of you though...that you'd be more selective about where you cast your pearls .

Bélla3: Lately i have been doing alot of thinking because of this question: 'how can God give freewill, at thesame time be omniscient (ie be know all things- past, present and future)?'


*trolls not invited*

because he already knows what you will do with your freewill.
That is what it means to be omniscient.

Ihedinobi: Hi Bella3

Um, quite a question you have there. I hope the "skepticism" of the unbelievers is not getting to you. Even if it is, the Lord is more than able to keep them that have trusted in Him.

This question of omniscience versus free will is a funny kind. It sounds legitimate and real but nobody has proven it to be an honest question, at least, not on this forum.

So I'll say first of all that even if God made His Creation deterministic by nature or semi-deterministic, He's got every right in the book to do so. After all, it's His Creation.

Second, the answer to your question, dear sis, is that God is not at all subject to time. In His reality, He does not have to look forward to a future or backward to a past. He commands time. Thus, He sees everything happening at all times as though it were all happening at once. He knows what decisions you will make in your future because He is watching you make them in the future at the very same time that you make them. So He does not "predict" the future as we would, rather, He witnesses it.

and why do i still hear Augustine speaking?

obadiah777: JUST CUZ HE KNOWS ALL THINGS DOES NOT MEAN HE SHOULD RESTRICT YOUR CHOICES. HE KNOWS THE CHOICES YOU WOULD MAKE. SO FREEWILL WALKS HAND IN HAND WITH HIM KNOWING ALL THINGS. THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION HERE. I DONT SEE ANY CONTRADICTIONS.

i agree with obadiah, i don't see the appearance of contradiction between freewill and omniscience.

Ubenedictus: i agree with obadiah, i don't see the appearance of contradiction between freewill and omniscience.

Honestly, you are more intelligent than this.


I am gonna open a thread about you

Logicboy03:



I am starting to believe in the holy spirit after watching you guyz


but this holy spirit is the spirit of delusion. How can you guyz type nonsense after nonsense (nonsense because your fellow christian sister sees the faulty logic in your posts to her and you cant convince her)but still claim that your posts "hit home"



omniscience and freewill can not exist together. End of story.

if you were saying "pre determination" and freewill can not exist together then i'll be willing to admit what seem like an apparent contradiction. But omniscience contradicting freewill is a myth,

@ OP it is all nonsense.

If God had Omnipotent and omnipresent powers, sin and the devil would not exist. There are only 2 conditions that would lead to sin and the devil existing:

1. God lacks the knowledge or power to prevent them. Hence God is not omnipotent or omniscient.

2. God is not benevolent and it is Gods wish for such things as sin and the devil, suffering and evil to exist.

Take your pick

cyrexx:

From a totally different perspective,let's look at the choices God made with his free will.


He chose with his free will to create angels he knew would rebel and become satan and his demons, knowing ahead of time they would do that.


He chose to create a tree that he didn't want people to eat from all the while knowing they would.


He chose to punish people with sin and death for eating from a tree he chose to make all the while knowing they would.


He chose to create a talking serpent and to let it tempt Adam and Eve knowing that they would fail the test.


He chose to favor Abel's sacrifice over Cain's knowing this would result in Cain killing Abel.

Being omniscient he knew all these thing's would happen before he did any of them. And he knew they would lead to PAIN, SIN,SUFFERING AND DEATH. All this as a result of him exercising his free will. So why does he think free will is a good thing that all people and angels should have?

great question.
In simpliest terms God is a raging inferno of love! Creation is simply God allowing love, or rather himself, so to be shared. Creation is simply an expression of love, and only rational creature can truly and fully love him right back.
Freewil is allowing love to be reciprocated.

Ubenedictus: if you were saying "pre determination" and freewill can not exist together then i'll be willing to admit what seem like an apparent contradiction. But omniscience contradicting freewill is a myth,

An omniscients vision of the future is predestination

Logicboy03:
Honestly, you are more intelligent than this.
I am gonna open a thread about you

hehehe, i'll be honored.
With the number of insults you throw whenever we meet i didnt think you would consider it worth your time to open a thread on me. I didn't even think you considered i have anything called intelligence.
Truly i'm surprise.

Logicboy03:
An omniscients vision of the future is predestination

and your point exactly?

Ubenedictus: great question.
In simpliest terms God is a raging inferno of love! Creation is simply God allowing love, or rather himself, so to be shared. Creation is simply an expression of love, and only rational creature can truly and fully love him right back.
Freewil is allowing love to be reciprocated.

Surely you dont buy all this stuff you just mentioned? Please tell me you dont?

If God had so much love for us that He needed to create us then why didnt He do the LOVING thing and remove sin from us rather than killing us and committing all out genocide due to His fury at our weakness which He created in us. As our creator He is at fault for our evils nad sins. We should be allowed to sue Him for our ills in life.

Ubenedictus: and your point exactly?

Seriously, bro?

JeSoul: My brother no wahala jare. I do have one wish of you though...that you'd be more selective about where you cast your pearls .

I hear you, sis. That's probably why I'm dealing more with the brethren now. Thanks for looking out for me though.

Logicboy03:



You must be joking.


The muslims and hausa pagans that have died from Boko Haam bombings how are they in holiness and comfort?

They lived in poverty in the north and now in death, they are in hell according to your religion. So what? Where is the comfort and holiness from that? God foresaw their everlasting suffering in two lives (earth + hell) but did nothing.


Mtchew

You really can't help yourself, Lb, can you? You must peddle nonsense like your life depends on if, mustn't you?

So what if one person uses his free will to put himself in trouble? How does that take away from the fact that another person uses it to take hold of Life? One person who chooses Life, my friend, is worth more than a thousand thaf choose Death.

Now, let's hear that characteristically silly roar of outrage, mm.

frank3.16:


pls this is religious section and if u want to joke, we have a section for that.

what do u mean by 'he also knew that they wouldnt end there but would... blah blah blah'

oh please free will has sent millions to hell and a handful to heaven... i wonder how God feels about that. can u pls ask him? since u seem to b in constant communication with him

Enyia, why does how God feels suddenly matter to you? How can He be feeling anything if He doesn't exist?

Anyway, how He feels will not make Him violate anybody's free will. Without free will, nobody could choose Life any more than they can chopse Death.

And what's that nonsense about a handful going to heaven? What are you reading? Toilet paper?