alexleo:

You have to calm down and answer him. All this ones you are saying- doctrines of demon, this and that, doesn't change anything. We can talk the talk but we can't change what is real. Even if we agree with you, it still will not make God to change what he has laid.

He doesn't have an answer to my conclusion, bro. He will just continue bringing up his own logic and analogy. He thinks he's the only one that studies the bible. He thinks God has given him exclusive right to understand the bible.

olumyde: Forget churches, God's punishment of sinners is shown all over the bible. This your analogy of if God punish ppl eternally then he is unjust is not through, even according to u two yrs ago. Let God be God and man be man. Your opinion doesn't change God. If your analogy is true, then you should also say God has been unjust to; command saul to kill all amalekites both women and children; to kill all the first born in egypt; to make all the egyptian army drown in the sea; to allow a sinless Jesus to suffer for our sins. As a human being, no matter who your enemy is, you are not right to kill his first born, not to talk of killing all the first born in his village. God is God. Man is Man. Don't mix it. It's better not use that logic again. Thanks

You need to be perfected in love bro, stop living in fear.

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." - 1 John 4:18

God will punish in this life and in the next with death if sinners refuse to repent, if this is not enough for you , then you need to pray that your heart will be filled with love.

frosbel:


You need to be perfected in love bro, stop living in fear.

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." - 1 John 4:18

God will punish in this life and in the next with death if sinners refuse to repent, if this is not enough for you , then you need to pray that your heart will be filled with love.

I know you'll continue to avoid my conclusion. Now you've come to the level of assuming that i'm living in fear and that there's no love in my heart. U wish. Why would I who is saved by God's grace be living in fear. Infact, i don't really like d idea of ppl accepting Christ because of fear of hell, cos i think it doesn't last. The love of God according to John 3:16, dt made Him send the Son to die and suffer so we won't be punished for our sins, is the most important thing. But what is in the bible is in the bible. No need to call it parable and metaphor just to suit the unbelievers perception of God. Pls, don't feel obliged to reply this post. It's my conclusion that is most important.

olumyde: Luke 16:19-31 is another vivid description, but they say its a parable, even though Jesus didn't give any other meaning to the passage, i'm still waiting for someone that will come and give us HIS OWN meaning. I will conclude with this. According to Mark 9:42-48, there is a terrible place/condition awaiting sinners, whatever name you call it, either you believe its immediately after death or later. This place/condition is so terrible, no matter how we try to water it down, dt Jesus said its better to cut our hands and pluck out our eyes than for us to be thrown into it. Meaning d pain we'll feel by cutting off our hands or plucking out our eyes, can not be compared to if we are thrown into that place/condition. THERE IS A TERRIBLE PLACE OR CONDITION AWAITING UNREPENTANT SINNERS. Thats what Jesus was trying to tell them, which good christians continue to tell the world, that there is a place/condition we desperately need to avoid. If anybody disagrees with this, they should take it up with Jesus.

and this is my conclusion.

Something funny just occured to me. Some of them say, sinners are just simply going to die, and they also agree that they will be resurrected for judgement. They mean God will raise them up to kill them again. I don't like using human analogy, but why won't God just leave them dead? Its just funny to me. It may make sense to someone else though. This is not biblical, it's just my own thoughts o.

olumyde: I know you'll continue to avoid my conclusion. Now you've come to the level of assuming that i'm living in fear and that there's no love in my heart. U wish. Why would I who is saved by God's grace be living in fear. Infact, i don't really like d idea of ppl accepting Christ because of fear of hell, cos i think it doesn't last. The love of God according to John 3:16, dt made Him send the Son to die and suffer so we won't be punished for our sins, is the most important thing. But what is in the bible is in the bible. No need to call it parable and metaphor just to suit the unbelievers perception of God. Pls, don't feel obliged to reply this post. It's my conclusion that is most important.

It is poor bible scholarship to base a very important and core Christian doctrine on a parable which only forms 0.0001% of the bible.

Besides , can you tell us if this hell of yours in Luke 16 is the same as the lake of fire ?

olumyde: He doesn't have an answer to my conclusion, bro. He will just continue bringing up his own logic and analogy. He thinks he's the only one that studies the bible. He thinks God has given him exclusive right to understand the bible.

So which is worse , resurrection to kill or resurrection to everlasting roasting in liquid sulphur ?

frosbel:


It is poor bible scholarship to base a very important and core Christian doctrine on a parable which only forms 0.0001% of the bible.

Besides , can you tell us if this hell of yours in Luke 16 is the same as the lake of fire ?

Ok i agree i'm a poor bible scholar. And you are the excellent bible scholar. Ok? I'm not even focused on whether hell is lake of fire or lake of fire is hell. Jesus warned me not to be in either hell or lake of fire. Just do a careful appraisal of my conclusion.

frosbel:

So which is worse , resurrection to kill or resurrection to everlasting roasting in liquid sulphur ?

I'm not arguing which or what punishment is appropriate. That decision is not mine to make. If God decides to use the worst punishment, what can I, a mere mortal, do. Thats why I said in d post i think u are refering to, dt it's just my thoughts, it doesn't matter. I see u are at ease replying to my other posts, but ignoring my conclusion.

olumyde: I'm not arguing which or what punishment is appropriate. That decision is not mine to make. If God decides to use the worst punishment, what can I, a mere mortal, do. Thats why I said in d post i think u are refering to, dt it's just my thoughts, it doesn't matter. I see u are at ease replying to my other posts, but ignoring my conclusion.

bro its enough... Even if Father Abraham comes to correct them... Their heart is still hardened... Topic unfollowed!!

handsomebolanle:
bro its enough... Even if Father Abraham comes to correct them... Their heart is still hardened... Topic unfollowed!!

Abraham is dead and waiting for the resurrection.

frosbel: Have we asked ourselves why HELL was prepared for the devil and his angels who are far more superior in strength than weak mankind, and these devils are still roaming the earth to and fro looking for whom they may devour, while those for whom it was not made are experiencing torture as we speak ?

And who said MAN is immortal, show me in the bible and I will send you 50 pounds.

Please let us use our brain and stop following men and their dogmas , read your bible.

make it £100 and i will show you, thats the least tuition fee i can collect. Remain blessed

frosbel:

So which is worse , resurrection to kill or resurrection to everlasting roasting in liquid sulphur ?

are u serious? You mean God will kill you and resurect you to kill you again?? Does dt sound well to you?
Smh...may God have mercy on you!

Mintayo:

are u serious? You mean God will kill you and resurect you to kill you again?? Does dt sound well to you?
Smh...may God have mercy on you!

hmm , twisting words again , who said God will kill you ? Have you now added lying to your baggage.

frosbel:

calm down ?


Your team is the one that needs to calm down,

I mean calm down with Olumyde that i quoted his post. I know you and Ola and image123 are doing a battle of words along side with the debate. When you see them you can continue with them but this other guy is not doing any battle of words with you rather he has something he wants you to clear which you have not.

frosbel:

they are not listening to the truth,

Which truth? You dont have monopoly of the truth. As at 2011, our stand was the truth for you while others where lies, now in 2013 its lies for you. How then do you claim you are 100% on the truth? Keep presenting your own while they keep presenting theirs. You have not yet proved your stand beyond doubt so it remains wrong to us.

frosbel:
they keep rehashing the standard line of their church or pastor without applying good study .

So it is what they learn from you or what complies with your study that is good to be rehashed? No sir. If a pastor could study the word to the point of convincing us on this matter to the point that you have not been able to change our stand, then you have yourself to blame and not us or the pastor. Go back to the drawing and check your product. Something is wrong with it somewhere. Blaming pastors rather shows you lack convincing presentations which they possess.

frosbel:


besides God has not laid any doctrine called eternal torment, it simply does not exist.

You have not proved this so it remains wrong. The interpretation you people are given to the whole thing is just yours.
We talked about lazarus and the rich man, you people called it a parable even when the bible did not call it and you want us to swallow it? No sir.
You asked me whether spirit can feel pain like the body as the rich man talked about. Yet Matthew 25:41 talks about an everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Are they not spirits too? If fire could burn them as spirits why wont it burn the rich man.
Rev. 20:10 also talks about devil and the prophets being tormented in the lake of fire forever. You people are still asking how possible since the devil is a spirit. You need to show us where the bible stated that spirits cannot be tormented in fire as these two scriptural verses stated.
You people talked about the scripture that says no man has ascended into heaven, and i asked- how about Elijah that was carried by the chariot of fire to heaven? You people gave your own interpretation that he was carried somewhere whereas the bible said he was carried to heaven and ended it there.
I asked about Enoch, nobody could provide any answer for that one.
You people are just using your own ideas and thoughts to interprete these scriptures. When you find something that suits you in the scripture you ll tell us to stick to the scripture, when we present our own scriptures, you people will start giving it your interpretation and want us to swallow it. It doesnt work that way bros. You have a lot to clear on this matter and having not clear it, you have no right to blame a pastor who did his work well. Morever you cant stay in your house and accuse another of not studying the scriptures. Thats false accusation and you know what it means as a christian. Thanks.

olumyde: He doesn't have an answer to my conclusion, bro. He will just continue bringing up his own logic and analogy. He thinks he's the only one that studies the bible. He thinks God has given him exclusive right to understand the bible.

There are lots of unanswered questions they have in this issue. We are all delibrating and i pray God to intervene so that none of us will be on the wrong track which means ending in eternal damnation,

frosbel:

hmm , twisting words again , who said God will kill you ? Have you now added lying to your baggage.

22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.



There is definitely a day of reckoning where the unrighteous would be casted into the Lake of Fire.

^^^

Hell here translated from Hades which means gravedom. Original word in Greek to Hades ᾅδου.

frosbel: When human beings torture animals or men/women, they are called the vilest of all living , but when the 'god' of religion tortures human beings made in his image, not for 1 day , not for 1 year, not for 1 century , not for 1 millennia, but for everlasting to everlasting we call him a lovely , kind and gentle 'god'. Double standards anyone ?


;

But the same God tormented the Egyptians with ten different plagues. Drowned Pharoh's army, destroyed nations, struck Annanias and Saphira dead in the new testament etc.

alexleo:

But the same God tormented the Egyptians with ten different plagues. Drowned Pharoh's army, destroyed nations, struck Annanias and Saphira dead in the new testament etc.

He sent plagues upon them and they perished, he did not torment them forever and ever.

Every punishment from God has a start date and end date.

There's nothing like hell. Hell in on earth and heaven likewise. If you think am lying, then go to the hospitals you can find around and see people groaning and crying in deep pain. Pain is hell. Pain is hell

I won't argue on this thread but I will drop a few hints-


Revelation 20:11-15

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, (which will be Christ) from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12. And I saw the dead, (the lost who have been down in Hell in torment ever since they died) small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead (those spiritually dead who never entered into salvation) were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (remember a believer will never face second death, because we experience our second death when we identified with Christ when He died on the cross. Remember Paul says, `we are crucified with Christ!') 15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So these unbelievers will be resurrected out of Hell and given a body that is fit for the Lake of Fire. That sounds horrible doesn't it? But that's what the Book says

[quote author=shdemidemi]

Revelation 20:11-15

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, (which will be Christ) from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12. And I saw the dead, (the lost who have been down in Hell in torment ever since they died)

The bolded is your interpolated insinuation , and cannot be derived directly from the scripture quoted.

small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead (those spiritually dead who never entered into salvation) were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

You do err not knowing the scriptures.

You keep making the same error that the translators intentionally or unwittingly make , which is to translate hades or sheol into hell wherever it may be found, at best this is disingenuous and at worst it is an outright fraud.

The verse should read "and death and the gravedom ( hades ) delivered up the dead which were in them".

Another point you seemed to have missed and which confirms this exegesis, is this quote which goes " And the sea gave up the dead which were in it".

Adding 1+1 to = 2 , will tell a sincere bible student that hell never means a place where spirits ( man is not a spirit btw ) are tormented in preparation for an even greater torment.

The usage of the sea here confirms that all those who died on land and in the sea are in their 'gravedom' , locked by the bondage and enemy of death , on the last day , they will be resurrected in natural bodies to receive judgement and then eternal death. This is called the second death. They will not experience immortal life.

(remember a believer will never face second death, because we experience our second death when we identified with Christ when He died on the cross. Remember Paul says, `we are crucified with Christ!') 15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Brother , you just go on and on without slowing down to think about what you are saying. How can a believer who has never experienced physical death which is the first death , experience second death which is a term used in the bible , not for believers but for sinners.

Please stop twisting the word of GOD.

So these unbelievers will be resurrected out of Hell and given a body that is fit for the Lake of Fire. That sounds horrible doesn't it? But that's what the Book says

Total nonsense and cannot in the least be supported by an iota of scripture.

The only aspects of scripture where new bodies are ever mentioned, are those that talk about the believers and only the saints , getting new immortal and glorious bodies, they will be like Jesus forever.

Your myth and dare I say LIE, that unbelievers and sinners will be given new bodies is just plain wrong and extra biblical.

Thanks.

shdemidemi:


Revelation 20: 15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So these unbelievers will be resurrected out of Hell and given a body that is fit for the Lake of Fire. That sounds horrible doesn't it? But that's what the Book says

The bolded is where i stand. Whether they will wear another body to go to hell or not doesnt concern me. Lets leave it at what the bible said.

Revelations 20:10 says -10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If anybody can show me where the bible said that what is written in this two verses are wrong or mistakes then let the person show me. As for sentimental interpretations to this scriptures, I reject it totally. Day or night is what the scripture said and thats it. Forever and ever is what the scripture said and thats it. tormented is what the scripture said and thats it. i dont need any emotional interpretations. Thanks

[quote author=alexleo]

The bolded is where i stand. Whether they will wear another body to go to hell or not doesnt concern me. Lets leave it at what the bible said.

Revelations 20:10 says -10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

V.10 talking about the devil , beast and false prophet.

V.14 talking about the final destruction of all the wicked.

Please stick to scripture.

shdemidemi:


Revelation 20: 15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So these unbelievers will be resurrected out of Hell and given a body that is fit for the Lake of Fire. That sounds horrible doesn't it? But that's what the Book says

The bolded is where i stand. Whether they will wear another body to go to hell or not doesnt concern me. Lets leave it at what the bible said.

Revelations 20:10 says -10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If anybody can show me where the bible said that what is written in this two verses are wrong or mistakes then let the person show me. As for sentimental interpretations to this scriptures, I reject it totally. Day or night is what the scripture said and thats it. Forever and ever is what the scripture said and thats it. tormented is what the scripture said and thats it. i dont need any emotional interpretations. Thanks

alexleo:

The bolded is where i stand. Whether they will wear another body to go to hell or not doesnt concern me. Lets leave it at what the bible said.

Revelations 20:10 says -10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If anybody can show me where the bible said that what is written in this two verses are wrong or mistakes then let the person show me. As for sentimental interpretations to this scriptures, I reject it totally. Day or night is what the scripture said and thats it. Forever and ever is what the scripture said and thats it. tormented is what the scripture said and thats it. i dont need any emotional interpretations. Thanks

V.10 talking about the devil , beast and false prophet.

V.14 talking about the final destruction of all the wicked.

Please stick to scripture.

frosbel: ^^^

Hell here translated from Hades which means gravedom. Original word in Greek to Hades ᾅδου.

And what of Hell translated from greek word Tartarus in 2Peter 2:4?. You threw a question I answered on the other thread but you haven't been back since then

Too busy, I guess?

frosbel: V.10 talking about the devil , beast and false prophet.

V.14 talking about the final destruction of all the wicked.

Please stick to scripture.

No sir, Verse 14 only mentioned death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, not the final destruction of the wicked. Lets stick to it pls. Dont add yours. Thanks

alexleo:

No sir, Verse 14 only mentioned death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, not the final destruction of the wicked. Lets stick to it pls. Dont add yours. Thanks

correct.

v15 I meant.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

after which we move to Revelation 21:4 where it says :

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

I wonder why death will no more exist but still exist , hmmmm

superior1:

And what of Hell translated from greek word Tartarus in 2Peter 2:4?. You threw a question I answered on the other thread but you haven't been back since then

Too busy, I guess?

what about it ?

frosbel:

correct.

v15 I meant.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

after which we move to Revelation 21:4 where it says :

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

I wonder why death will no more exist but still exist , hmmmm

chapter 21 was now talking about whats going on in the new heaven and new earth. wetin concern those in lake of fire with the place you quoted?
Read from chapter one of it and you ll see that the focus here is completely out from the lake of fire being discussed in the previous chapter. Are you mixing it up bros?