truthman2012: @ golpen

I think this is the last time I will discuss with you. We started well and I perceive it is not going to end well, which I predicted at the begining. It is an insult for me to trade words with you. Like I said to your brother abubello, I am not into competition with anybody, you are free to believe anything you want. But before then let me drop some things:

1. You seem to deliberately fail to understand that Christians' prayer is a loud prayer and there is a difference between praying and prophesying. You can say we are insane, what matters to us is the result we are getting.

2. I put it to you that Allah failed to protect Torah and Injeel if it is not the OT and NT because they are nowhere to be found today. Or do you have a copy? What then did Allah mean by saying His word cannot change? But He watched His words being thrown away. Even the quran is not a stable revelations. Allah kept changing them till Muhammad's death (Pickthall 16:101). Your islamic scholars say there is no abrogation in their defensive error when Allah himself says he did abrogate (Pickthall 2:106). What a confusion. Yet with all these you people still have the gut to accuse the Bible of contradictions. A situation where Allah was making mistakes and correcting his own error is worse than human error in the Bible.

The muslims that believe they have the original words of Allah have nothing to show for it other than Allah's writings on rocks, trees, just anywhere, which has no benefit to humanity. Miracle is God's response to man's prayer. Because muslims cannot pray and experience miracles by holding God to His words as the word they have is the counterfeit that cannot produce miracle, they say every miracle is from Satan and God has none.

So there were no more men around to mary Zaid's wife? What a funny defence? Where did other women of that time get their husbands as Muhammad was the only man available. Disgusting act. What was Muhammad's problem with women? He liked anything in hijab. Prophet of god indeed.

golpen:

You should not be offended if our replies infuriate you...most of your posts infuriate the muslims too. And besides I think the forum title states clearly "islam for muslims" and did not stop there. It goes further to tell that it is strictly for muslims, even the moderators, then I wonder what your business is here...

You don't tag it an insult when you post aggressive articles, it becomes an insult when you you get a deserved response. If you take it to be an offence getting this responses, it is better you stop posting offensive articles that don't make any meaning!

1. You keep fabricating a defence from your own mere mind without taking notes of the consiquences after saying them. How can you tell me the christian prayer is a loud one when we have very many churches that pray as silently as ever. And I can't still understand why you keep seperating the uses of tongues on your own when the bible has not stated the classification as prayer or prophecying!

I think misinterpretation is in the blood of the christians. You misconcept logical informations a lot and that contributed to the worse condition of the bible. I said "if 1 cor 14:23 condemns speaking in tongues in multiples, for the fear that christians might be tagged as insane", have I called the christians insane with that statement? And besides, that exactly is how the bible has put it, then you go on to loose your temper on that. I remember on this same thread, you were mixing up two different words (feel and understand).

You have failed to defend your claims and when you are being defeated on an issue, you don't acknowledge it, you only bring up a new issue to continue the argument.

2. I have told you that the torah and the injeel are both included in the qur'an. If you need anything from those books and even others, pls contact the qur'an with a rational view.

For your information, the holy prophet never had an intercourse with Zaid's wife. He only took her as a sense of her being under aresponsible man.

All of your claims about the Qur'an are all void...I have come to realise that you have a remote understanding of the Qur'an. How do I expect you to understand when some set of people have filled you with false cook-ups for you to believe. The funny thing is you accept those cook ups and call them your own scripture...what a pity.

Thanks for the debate sir, it's been a match with you. Till Probably on some of your next post, if I find them attractive. We're still friends anyway sir. God bless you sir.

nextpart:

"...... I have told you that the torah and the injeel are both included in the qur'an. If you need anything from those books and even others, pls contact the qur'an with a rational view".

My friend, where do you manufacture your LIES? I mean where do you get your false information that Torah and Injeel are included in the quran. You think you can just say anything to defend your religion? Keep trying to rewrite the quran to cover its errors.

He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
(Pickthall 3:3)

It is said to CONFIRM the earlier revelations as a separate Book

O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?
(Pickthal 3:65)

"People of the Scripture" refers to some people having the Scriture, which shows it is a separate Book.

People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed THEREIN. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
(Pickthal 5:47)

'Therein' indicates inside there, not inside the quran

Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with THEM. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful.
(Pichthal 7:157)

.....with THEM means it is not in the quran, it is with those to whom it was given.

You are defending the quran with lies. I don't blame you, the whole of the quran is false spiritual information.

"........For your information, the holy prophet never had an intercourse with Zaid's wife. He only took her as a sense of her being under a responsible man".

Please let us have your source of reference. Why did he marry her if not for the infatuation he was known for?

Conclusion: Allah is not capable of protecting his toral and injil if you say they are not the the Bible.

pointblank 321: golpen: You need to be flogged according to sharia law. you know somebody is an elderly man and you are passing insult on him? or are you guessing he is? where is the moral in islam? i'm sure if you have the chance u will join boko haram.

I do not buy your points at all: how do you know the contents of taurat and injil are in the quran? how do you know their contents since you have not seen them before? I once asked in this section what are names of jesus disciples, nobody knew them from the quran and you say it contains the gospel.

The fact that quran gives about 10% info about Jesus does not mean it contains the gospel, other occultic books talk about him too.

It is untrue that islam permits marrying an adopted son's wife. it was after muhammad had taken over zaynab, zyeed's wife that the law was changed. The law was changed to justify his act. The quran says ''henceforth'' there may be no sin for marrying the wife of adopted sons. are you ignorant of dat fact or you are just defending ur religion at all cost, even if you have to lie?

pointblank 321: @golpen: You said the statements in surah 87 is contained in the previous books of Ibrahim and Musa. Was that all Ibrahim's and Musa's Books contained? The quran never claims it is a replacement of Taurat and Injil, rather it refers to them as separate Books. Again, where can we find the Books or Scrolls of Ibrahim and Musa or the Taurat and Injil the quran mentioned? Changed or thrown away? Or better still, do you have them?

About Muhammad taking over Zayeed's wife, Zaynab, I want to ask you to go and read a thread I have just read here in the muslims' section titled 'Interesting Divine Marriage'. Then come back and justify your statements on the matter.

pointblank 321: It was the fear of Muhammad that made Zyeed to surrender. It was a forced release. How would a just and holy God support such a marriage? God cannot support oppression. Thank you.

pointblank 321: How would a just and holy God support such a marriage? God cannot support oppression. Thank you.

pointblank 321:
On Muhammad and Zynab, if you understand the story very well, you would have discovered it was after he saw her nackednes in Zyeed's house and commented she had a good body structure that Allah spoke to him to marry her. It shows:1. It was the lust he had for her that made him to make the comment. 2. Zynab had not been released when Muhammad saw her and lusted for her because she was still in his (Zyeed's) house. It was the fear of Muhammad that made Zyeed to surrender.

golpen: @pointblank

I think we have agreed that the story is a plot to contaminate the image of the prophet (S A W) and I'm using this opportunity to call for Allah's deserved reward for who so ever initiated that false story and those who carry it around without looking into the logic and the sentiments.

You need to shake off the dogma in you and take a travel to the land of rationality. If you ask me to tell the world to believe in the torah which may be found in the bible, what of the corrupted ones. That brings me to the topic here...the first five books in the OT is supposed to be revealed to Moses which is the torah right?, so what is the name of the book revealed to Jesus christ himself. 'The bible' is not an answer, because the new testament compruses of books from different men after his death and none of those books is His. I agree the first five books of the bible is that of moses, but it has been corrupted, from the first chapter. Get the debate I asked @nextpart to get to find out more. And because a higher percentage of the contents of the bible are of men, we have conflicting and contradicting views, leading to the confusion of millions of christians. If there is anything that looks like the torah in the bible and has a standing authencity, there is a more updated version of the same information in the Qur'an, so muslims don't need the bible at all.

This takes us back to the topic here; with the debates and arguments so far, what do you have to say of the topic. The question is;

"Has the bible been corrupted or not?" (Answers with proof to back your points pls, before any other claims). Thanks.

pointblank 321:

If the first five books of Moses were corrupted from the first chapter according to you, it still amounts to the fact that Allah was unable to protect Torah otherwise men would not have been able to corrupt it. Allah said nothing can change his words and yet men corrupted it. Man decision came to pass against the wish of Allah.

By implication, there would not have been need to send the quran if torah and injil were not corrupted. Many parts of the quran were put into writing after Muhammad's death, how are we so sure that the quran itself had not been corrupted as Allah was unable to protect his earlier revelations.

How are we sure those who wrote the quran put down the exact revelations received by Muhammad as Allah as usual would promise to protect his word but would fail in doing so in the end? You should agree with me that it was usual of Allah not protecting his words as he failed in protecting Torah and again Gospel. What power did Allah acquire after he lost control of Torah and Gospel that would enable him to protect the quran?

I therefore hereby submit that since Allah was unable to protect Torah and Gospel the quran must have been corrupted too due to His inability to protect His words, hence so many things it says against the true identity of Jesus. There is no certainty that Muhammad himself did not have input in the quran as Allah will usually allow men to have their ways. Thank you.

owo: After going through all the posts on this thread, I have arrived at the following conclusions;
1. Ignorance is the greatest disease that can afflict a man, woman, child, generation, community or nation.
2. There is no substitute to knowing THE TRUTH.
3. Banning other religous views, persuasions and beliefs, as done in most muslim majority countries / communities, is aimed at ensuring that THE TRUTH, is not known by muslims.
4. The Bible contains the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. As Jesus said, all others are thieves and robbers John 10vs8
5. A book like the quran, which quotes other books in order to validate its claims cannot be an ultimate revelation as it cannot stand alone.
6. The mark of a mediocre / usurper is that, it only stands or projects itself by putting down or discrediting another.

golpen:

You have just demonstrated a typical scope of your religion. Even an insane man knows the fact that the three christian debaters have been swept out here.

1. You talk of ignorance, without knowing how deep you're swimming in it. You celebrate christmas, a date which was given to the birth of christ with no standing backings or reference. in fact, that date is the day used in worshipping a roman idol. And you join in the celebration as ignorantly as a foolish man can think of.

2. I'll agree with you on this fact here, but I'll put it that you sure don't know the concept of that TRUTH you talk about.

3. Other religious views like engaging in homo acts, you think should be accepted in islamic countries. Secular acts you call it, where your ladies dress almost naked to your place of worships and confuse you pastors?.. I shouldn't be arguing with you, cos you don't know what your saying.

4. The bible contains the truth you said, but what about the contradictions? Don't be so dumb to know that somebody must have lied.

5. Then a book like the bible which can stand alone and be recognised as a white lie is something to take notice of too.

6. Verily, " The mark of a mediocre / usurper is that, it only stands or projects itself by putting down or discrediting another." You have said and I quote.