owo:

Do not congratulate yourself because they gave reasons for withdrawing from the exchange. those reasons are on the thread and i read all of them. Summary: they do not want to continue an exchange if you would rather abuse, prove unintelligent or diversionary in your responses.

1. Hopefully you understand how deep too. Those that celebrate Christmas told you they were commanded to do so? They celebrate because they have freedom to think within the defined boundaries of the Christian faith. Also those that don't celebrate toe their line because they have freedom to think within the defined boundaries of the Christian faith. Celebration or non-celebration are not opposite, they are different shades or colours. Rom 14:5-6 The shallow mind can only perceive yes or no, black or white etc. This butresses the summation that ignorance is a grevious disease, indeed the most grevious.

2. Again I hope you understand TRUTH. Maybe you (like most humans) look for truth is some words, book, concept, idea, persuassion et al. How wrong that can be. For Like Elijah the prophet, most people would think that the words sent though a thundering voice is the right one, but nay, it is the wrong one. Surely, TRUTH cannot be subsituted and no machination of men or human wisdom can lead to it.

3. You may hang on the straw of the gross and basest lifestyle of lost men and women as a basis for persecuting, killing and torturing those that seek to show you the meaning of peace, love and justice. The blood and souls of men/women/children killed daily, churches burnt daily, children denied and sold in slavery because they don't share your views will be required at the hand of thier persecutors someday. Certainly, the veil shall be lifted, without human hands.

4. Contradictions you say? When the level of reasoning is sufficiently high , then things fall into place. A child needs years of of education to come to knowledge. Many of the things I read from you and others here really shows a low level of knowledge and wallowing in willfull ignorance. No one lied, you are the one that do not understand and many people like you have come back later to tell me thank you for the veil that was lifted from their hearts (first) and then their eyes (later).

5. It is certain that one of the marks of authenticity is a certain self validation. If the Bible never existed, then there would be no quran. However the reverse is not true. The Bible stays true to itself without any other book, quran inclusive. Therefore I understand the strenous and self defeating attempts at discrediting the Bible, since the "sanctity" of the quran depends on the success of that exercise.

6. The mark of a mediocre / usurper is that, it only stands or projects itself by putting down or discrediting another. Refer to point 5 above for explanation on why you have to try, at great self defeating effort, to discredit the Bible. It is why many are banned from hearing the truth that would set them free.

You won't be able to imagine how I can't stop laughing at your rubbish and baseless excuses. But you really need to read your post again and I bet you'll either laugh at yourself or cry for yourself.

1. You celebrate the christmas because you have the freedom to think within the christian faith...of course a christian faith that has told you christ was born on 25(: of december? A christian faith that has a boundary covered to make your priests choose an idol celebration day and blind your eyes so you can swim in ignorance. A christian faith indeed, but that which your pastors have decided to go against(in their quest of pocket evangelism) allowing their wives to give sermons and even go ahead to head the churches (1 cor 14:34) and in your stack ignorance shout halelluyah, instead of stoning them. Listen to yourself.

2. All of this I've stated above does not make you to close your eyes abash and you claim to know the truth. I pity your condition.

3. Yes it shall be requested from them all, for Islam as a religion goes against it too. The muslim clerics that have come out to go against it have been killed, the public sites bombings also have muslims as victims. The man who instigated the eagle square bombing(forgot his name), who was later caught in SA is not a muslim and we muslims have not put the christians in hell. Besides, the minister for police affairs has clearly stated that so high profiled figure in Nigeria are taking advantage of poverty as a situation to use this people for their own personal purposes. You christians only rant at this because of your clear hate for Islam.

4. No one lied you said, but if that's true, then maybe you have to tell me if this verses are the same or are both the truth;

2 Kings 24:8
8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles 36:9
9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord.

In fact what do I need to understand in this. You should pity yourself if this does not disgrace you.

5. If you agree with me like a sane person on the above verses which apparently means someone lied in either, then we must agree that the bible has been corrupted.

6. I still agree with your first post on this, but the question is who that quote is refering to.

golpen:

You won't be able to imagine how I can't stop laughing at your rubbish and baseless excuses. But you really need to read your post again and I bet you'll either laugh at yourself or cry for yourself.

1. You celebrate the christmas because you have the freedom to think within the christian faith...of course a christian faith that has told you christ was born on 25(: of december? A christian faith that has a boundary covered to make your priests choose an idol celebration day and blind your eyes so you can swim in ignorance. A christian faith indeed, but that which your pastors have decided to go against(in their quest of pocket evangelism) allowing their wives to give sermons and even go ahead to head the churches (1 cor 14:34) and in your stack ignorance shout halelluyah, instead of stoning them. Listen to yourself.

2. All of this I've stated above does not make you to close your eyes abash and you claim to know the truth. I pity your condition.

3. Yes it shall be requested from them all, for Islam as a religion goes against it too. The muslim clerics that have come out to go against it have been killed, the public sites bombings also have muslims as victims. The man who instigated the eagle square bombing(forgot his name), who was later caught in SA is not a muslim and we muslims have not put the christians in hell. Besides, the minister for police affairs has clearly stated that so high profiled figure in Nigeria are taking advantage of poverty as a situation to use this people for their own personal purposes. You christians only rant at this because of your clear hate for Islam.

4. No one lied you said, but if that's true, then maybe you have to tell me if this verses are the same or are both the truth;

2 Kings 24:8
8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles 36:9
9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord.

In fact what do I need to understand in this. You should pity yourself if this does not disgrace you.

5. If you agree with me like a sane person on the above verses which apparently means someone lied in either, then we must agree that the bible has been corrupted.

6. I still agree with your first post on this, but the question is who that quote is refering to.

To keep you in check, going forward, i will document when you run away from the issue at hand.
You are doging the following:
- refusing to see that you lied against the people that started this discussion with you, by saying the ran away since they were defeated. Summary: they do not want to continue an exchange if you would rather abuse, prove unintelligent or diversionary in your responses

1. Ignorance is really a scourge. Be englightened. To celebrate a birth day ... anyone for that matter ... was neither commanded or denounced in the HOLY BIBLE. A Child of the Kingdom is at liberty to choose what he wants to do because - Rom 14:5 "One man esteemeth a day above another ; another esteemeth everyday alike, let each man be fully assured in his own mind". Receive knowledge. Every Child of God decides if he wants to celebrate Christ's birth on any day of his choice or not. As long as the Child of God is fully assured, then so be it. This may be hard or strange for you to grasp because you expect things to be right or wrong but the SCRIPTURE OF TRUTH is superior and places no such burden as you desire or would want to see.
Interestingly, Why would the celebration of people who are living within the bounds of the book they profess to follow be a problem to you even you are not knowledable enough?
You can ask any question you want and be sure to receive the right answers though i will try to avoid your abusive, unintellingent and diversionary tales. I will assume that new topics you introduce are things you want to know more about.

New request: "allowing their wives to give sermons and even go ahead to head the churches (1 cor 14:34)".
Answer: Gal 3: 28 "For as many of you as were baptised into christ did put on christ. there can be neither Jew nor Greek, Bond or Free, male nor female for you all are one man in Christ Jesus". Icor 11: 5 "every woman praying or prophesying..." therefore when male/female et al are baptised into Christ, they are allowed to prophesy ie declare the word of the LORD, which is what you call preaching. Your confusion arises because you do not understand that the Bible is understood only through God's Spirit and that flesh and blood cannot reveal it to you no matter how well you read. Above all the writings are Isa 28: 10 ".... precept upon precept, line upon line...". You cannot take one verse and run away with it thinking you have scored a goal. The verse you quoted were to lay a framework for the operation of the Corinthian and similar asian churches due to the disorderliness during some of their meetings. Therefore the exhortation in vs 41 of the same chapter.
Why would you want to stone someone? for not doing what you think is right? if the person actually did wrong, do you want to help God to punish him/her? My God is not dead, he is alive and has clearly instructed us not to take another person's life,not even revenge. If what you worship authorizes you to kill another for whatever reason, please don't wish it on us, we can't join you and never will.

2. I can never be ashamed of the TRUTH. I have the pillar and foucndations of it with me. Again, Maybe you (like most humans) look for truth is some words, book, concept, idea, persuassion et al. How wrong that can be. For Like Elijah the prophet, most people would think that the words sent though a thundering voice is the right one, but nay, it is the wrong one. Surely, TRUTH cannot be subsituted and no machination of men or human wisdom can lead to it.

3. The wholesale killings of those that risk their lives to show your people the truth may go on for as long men want, but it will not stop the march of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You may support those that brought out my brother from his house in Yobe and killed in cold blood because he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ simply because "muslims have also been killed", it does not stop anything. Again, I say that You may hang on the straw of the gross and basest lifestyle of lost men and women as a basis for persecuting, killing and torturing those that seek to show you the meaning of peace, love and justice. The blood and souls of men/women/children killed daily, churches burnt daily, children denied and sold in slavery because they don't share your views will be required at the hand of thier persecutors someday. Certainly, the veil shall be lifted, without human hands.

4. You need to look for something better. When writing about how long a ruler stayed in office, must you specify the seconds, hours, minutes. Sorry Sir, one record is superficial and the other is more detailed and specified the number of days and if you look further, many more similar specifications are eveident between the book of kings and Chronicles because these are historical records kept in a. the king's palace and b. the temple. Why? because the two records were kept for varying pruposes.
Remember, the scripture is never a verse against the other, it is line upon line precept upon precept Sia 28;10. The verses exist in complimentary status and not as opposites.
You dodged: The importance of have the veil lifted from your heart first so that you eyes can see. Until the veil is lifted from your hear, you cannot perceive the light of the glorious gospel because it is spritually discened. You will keep stumbling on it.

5. We can never agree because the Bible is true and your reference frame is as far as darkness is from light. Like jesus told the Pharisees .." you err, because you do not understand THE SCRIPTURES"
Again, i insist that .... It is certain that one of the marks of authenticity is a certain self validation. If the Bible never existed, then there would be no quran. However the reverse is not true. The Bible stays true to itself without any other book, quran inclusive. Therefore I understand the strenous and self defeating attempts at discrediting the Bible, since the "sanctity" of the quran depends on the success of that exercise.

6. Certainly, I insist, The mark of a mediocre / usurper is that, it only stands or projects itself by putting down or discrediting another. Refer to point 5 above for explanation on why you have to try, at great self defeating effort, to discredit the Bible. It is why many are banned from hearing the truth that would set them free.


Can't you see that if you were in the way of truth, you don't need to attempt to discredit the Bible?
An authentic star shines through irrespective of the other stars. It does not need to try dimming the other ones for it to shine. It just shines. So is the light and truth, it just shines.
Now I ask, why would you want to remain in ignorance?

owo:

To keep you in check, going forward, i will document when you run away from the issue at hand.
You are doging the following:
- refusing to see that you lied against the people that started this discussion with you, by saying the ran away since they were defeated. Summary: they do not want to continue an exchange if you would rather abuse, prove unintelligent or diversionary in your responses

1. Ignorance is really a scourge. Be englightened. To celebrate a birth day ... anyone for that matter ... was neither commanded or denounced in the HOLY BIBLE. A Child of the Kingdom is at liberty to choose what he wants to do because - Rom 14:5 "One man esteemeth a day above another ; another esteemeth everyday alike, let each man be fully assured in his own mind". Receive knowledge. Every Child of God decides if he wants to celebrate Christ's birth on any day of his choice or not. As long as the Child of God is fully assured, then so be it. This may be hard or strange for you to grasp because you expect things to be right or wrong but the SCRIPTURE OF TRUTH is superior and places no such burden as you desire or would want to see.
Interestingly, Why would the celebration of people who are living within the bounds of the book they profess to follow be a problem to you even you are not knowledable enough?
You can ask any question you want and be sure to receive the right answers though i will try to avoid your abusive, unintellingent and diversionary tales. I will assume that new topics you introduce are things you want to know more about.

New request: "allowing their wives to give sermons and even go ahead to head the churches (1 cor 14:34)".
Answer: Gal 3: 28 "For as many of you as were baptised into christ did put on christ. there can be neither Jew nor Greek, Bond or Free, male nor female for you all are one man in Christ Jesus". Icor 11: 5 "every woman praying or prophesying..." therefore when male/female et al are baptised into Christ, they are allowed to prophesy ie declare the word of the LORD, which is what you call preaching. Your confusion arises because you do not understand that the Bible is understood only through God's Spirit and that flesh and blood cannot reveal it to you no matter how well you read. Above all the writings are Isa 28: 10 ".... precept upon precept, line upon line...". You cannot take one verse and run away with it thinking you have scored a goal. The verse you quoted were to lay a framework for the operation of the Corinthian and similar asian churches due to the disorderliness during some of their meetings. Therefore the exhortation in vs 41 of the same chapter.
Why would you want to stone someone? for not doing what you think is right? if the person actually did wrong, do you want to help God to punish him/her? My God is not dead, he is alive and has clearly instructed us not to take another person's life,not even revenge. If what you worship authorizes you to kill another for whatever reason, please don't wish it on us, we can't join you and never will.

2. I can never be ashamed of the TRUTH. I have the pillar and foucndations of it with me. Again, Maybe you (like most humans) look for truth is some words, book, concept, idea, persuassion et al. How wrong that can be. For Like Elijah the prophet, most people would think that the words sent though a thundering voice is the right one, but nay, it is the wrong one. Surely, TRUTH cannot be subsituted and no machination of men or human wisdom can lead to it.

3. The wholesale killings of those that risk their lives to show your people the truth may go on for as long men want, but it will not stop the march of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You may support those that brought out my brother from his house in Yobe and killed in cold blood because he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ simply because "muslims have also been killed", it does not stop anything. Again, I say that You may hang on the straw of the gross and basest lifestyle of lost men and women as a basis for persecuting, killing and torturing those that seek to show you the meaning of peace, love and justice. The blood and souls of men/women/children killed daily, churches burnt daily, children denied and sold in slavery because they don't share your views will be required at the hand of thier persecutors someday. Certainly, the veil shall be lifted, without human hands.

4. You need to look for something better. When writing about how long a ruler stayed in office, must you specify the seconds, hours, minutes. Sorry Sir, one record is superficial and the other is more detailed and specified the number of days and if you look further, many more similar specifications are eveident between the book of kings and Chronicles because these are historical records kept in a. the king's palace and b. the temple. Why? because the two records were kept for varying pruposes.
Remember, the scripture is never a verse against the other, it is line upon line precept upon precept Sia 28;10. The verses exist in complimentary status and not as opposites.
You dodged: The importance of have the veil lifted from your heart first so that you eyes can see. Until the veil is lifted from your hear, you cannot perceive the light of the glorious gospel because it is spritually discened. You will keep stumbling on it.

5. We can never agree because the Bible is true and your reference frame is as far as darkness is from light. Like jesus told the Pharisees .." you err, because you do not understand THE SCRIPTURES"
Again, i insist that .... It is certain that one of the marks of authenticity is a certain self validation. If the Bible never existed, then there would be no quran. However the reverse is not true. The Bible stays true to itself without any other book, quran inclusive. Therefore I understand the strenous and self defeating attempts at discrediting the Bible, since the "sanctity" of the quran depends on the success of that exercise.

6. Certainly, I insist, The mark of a mediocre / usurper is that, it only stands or projects itself by putting down or discrediting another. Refer to point 5 above for explanation on why you have to try, at great self defeating effort, to discredit the Bible. It is why many are banned from hearing the truth that would set them free.


Can't you see that if you were in the way of truth, you don't need to attempt to discredit the Bible?
An authentic star shines through irrespective of the other stars. It does not need to try dimming the other ones for it to shine. It just shines. So is the light and truth, it just shines.
Now I ask, why would you want to remain in ignorance?

I seriously can't figure out your point here. They are just baseless and don't have any standings at all.

1. The more you try to cover up your lags with lies and fabrications, the more you deep yourself into more and more troubles.

"Every Child of God decides if he wants to celebrate Christ's birth on any day of his choice or not.", you said and I wonder if you ever take a minute to read your words before clicking on the 'submit' icon. I'll like a christian fellow like you to testify to the logic in this sentence, if it actually sound logical to you in any way. So you mean it is acceptable if the pope announces to the catholics to snub dec 25 and celebrate christmas on 31st of may?...read your words.

Here, Maybe you need the context of the verse I refered you to. 1 cor 14:34 says;

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

Now imagine it didn't stop there, to make you know how seriously the bible meant it, it said in 35

"If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church"

So I wonder if gal 3:28 says what 1 cor 14:34-35 say is rubbish, then there's a score to settle. Maybe that's what you tell them in church to justify your wife's preaching.

2. What are the foundations? Trinity? An unscathed lie!!! Check very well, Jesus himself never claimed it.

3. Here, you have done a similar thing you earlier brothers did- twisting my words, by saying;

"You may support those that brought out my brother from his house in Yobe and killed in cold blood because he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ simply because "muslims have also been killed", it does not stop anything."

I don't think I did hint at supporting them in my earlier statements, I only hinted that muslims have been victims of these killings too and as muslims we are not comfortable with it. However, I'm sorry for the issue of your brother. May his soul rest in peace (a minute silence).

4. I think someone needs to help me out here.

 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles 36:9
9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord.

The question is was he 18 yrs or 8 yrs when he started ruling, let's say 3mnths 10 days is still equivalent to 3 months. I still maintain my stand that somebody lied in either of the two or in fact, both lied, but both cannot be true.

5. If you say the truth in a gathering or a court, you need a witness to certify your claims. And if you still insist a self sufficient sign of authencity which you will never find in the any other scripture not even in the bible, the Qur'sn talks of every aspect of life ranging from history (the story of the seven sleepers), literature (the language structure of the Qur'an) and science (hydrology, embryology, geography et al). All these I can provide you a reference to provided you need them or better still get the debate clip I asked others to get.

How can you prove your claim that the Qur'an depended on the existence of the bible?.. Baseless!!!

6. I still agree with you on your quote anyway, but telling what is wrong is not too little to ask. You may only want to asl yourself why YOU want to remain in ignorance.

something have been agreed here
1)the bible is made up of; words directly from God, God inspired statements, and statement from men. And
2)the statements from men have certain degree of error in them.
From this i think there is no need to argue further, any one with common sense has an answer to the topic already.

double j1: something have been agreed here
1)the bible is made up of; words directly from God, God inspired statements, and statement from men. And
2)the statements from men have certain degree of error in them.
From this i think there is no need to argue further, any one with common sense has an answer to the topic already.

They'll always keep quiet on that fact, only to start blaming the Qur'an for what is absolutely unblameable for the bible's predicaments.

@truthman2012 changed his name to nextpart and because he's been caught, never appeared on any of the threads here. Pointblank and cleanvessel took to their heels too and owo is trying to come to their aids, attacking the Qur'an forgetting the topic of the thread. They are fond of diverting any argument to BH issue, thinking it is stigmatisation of the muslims.

They'll always keep quiet on the fact...bloody hypocrites!!!

@ golpen

You seem to enjoy it so much when somebody is silent for you because it is no more reasonable to continue with you as you are not making sense. You are an expert in words of abuse and war of words. These are in noway convincing points. If it is one-on-discussion, people like you resort to physical combat. I wouldn't blame you for taking after your prophet who was a warlord, the only prophet in history who led war for evangelism, killing those he was supposed to save.

All of you anti-Christ are working so hard to discredit the Bible and you cannot succeed. The power of the Almighty God that is backing the Bible cannot be overcome. Despite your accusations againt the Christians and the Bible, God continues working in us and through us. Jesus is relating with us till today. He is alive. If there is anything we are doing wrong, He will tell us. If He is silent, it means He could tolerate it.

The quran you praise so much has no power and life inside it. Muslims cannot manifest Allah's power publicly until they go into the secret places to make arabian charms (tira and hontu). Demonic activities from the Devil. If quran is the word of God, why is there no miraculous force in it? God's words contain God's power. I tell you the truth, it is only in Christiendom God manifests His Almightiness: the blind made to see, the death raised to life, the barren made fruitful, sicknesses healed etc. I know you will say they are done by the Devil because you believe your own God does not have power but the Devil. Your own God is not good to humanity by giving them miracles but the Devil.

For your information, your quran has been discovered to be a guess work. The writer of the quran after Muhammad, wrote it when there were differences in memorizers recitations and there was noway he could know the correct ones as he could not hear from Allah to confirm. Tell me, is it reasonable to say such a book written from guess works is reliable? How can you say it is holy?

I clearly understand how frustrated you must have been when putting this up. But I thought you've said your goodbyes .

Just help yourself with a dose of rationality and go have a rethink of the structure of that bible you carry to church on sundays.

You may then come back, read this thread from the begining to the end and answer the question as to the topic!!!

Has the bible been corrupted?

In that while don't call me back to this thread because I have some other interesting ones to attend to. Thanks

@ golpen

You have no real points against the Bible and nobody can feel fraustrated carrying and reading it. It is life and power.

By the way, you were yet to finish in your response to my thread ''Today's Quran Is Not the Original'' before your moderator quickly deleted it.

You may wish to seize this opportunity to complete your post by answering this question:

The writer of the quran was called to write a large proportion of it at a time when there were differences in recitations by the memorizers (Bukhari Vol. 61, Book 6, Number 510) possibly because satan has finally succeeded in making inputs in the quranic revelations.

There is no doubt that he (writer) made guess-works in his writings as he could not hear from Allah to know which ones were correct among the different recitations. You remember that satan tried to make such inputs in Muhammad's time but for the intervention of Allah made possible because he could hear from Allah.

How therefore can you say a book (quran) written from guess-works is holy or perfect? How are you sure what were eventually written were not satanic revelations. Thanks.

cleanvessel: @ golpen

You have no real points against the Bible and nobody can feel fraustrated carrying and reading it. It is life and power.

By the way, you were yet to finish in your response to my thread ''Today's Quran Is Not the Original'' before your moderator quickly deleted it.

You may wish to seize this opportunity to complete your post by answering this question:

The writer of the quran was called to write a large proportion of it at a time when there were differences in recitations by the memorizers (Bukhari Vol. 61, Book 6, Number 510) possibly because satan has finally succeeded in making inputs in the quranic revelations.

There is no doubt that he (writer) made guess-works in his writings as he could not hear from Allah to know which ones were correct among the different recitations. You remember that satan tried to make such inputs in Muhammad's time but for the intervention of Allah made possible because he could hear from Allah.

How therefore can you say a book (quran) written from guess-works is holy or perfect? How are you sure what were eventually written were not satanic revelations. Thanks.

I don't know ur problem, can't you see you people have been refuted and you wanted to use style to derail from the topic, I don't blame you if not because they have deleted my yesterday thread from front page you people shud have commit suicide by now.
I promise you people you will still stay away from going to church after people have seen your falsehoodn I asked almost 10 questions and nobody didn't attempt to answer me except DESIKA who is not christian. Shame on you people and if you have anything in mind go and open your thread and call us don't derail anybody thread, DO YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!

@ ayenny02

Christians will stay away from churches and embrace islamic idolatery?

When it has been proved beyond reseanable doubt that Muhammad continued with the ways of idolaters and rename it islam? See the thread ''Why Allah's Reconciliation''.

You are deceiving yourself.

@Cleanvessel: you are not taking a firm stand because you are contradicting yourself in the above post. take a position and be firm otherwise you will considered as being unconvinced yet standing on quick sand. if you are in lagos, say you are in lagos. if you decide to be in abuja, you have to be a person in abuja. it is impossible to put one foot in abuja and the other in lagos. when you are in lagos, you can never be in abuja at that time. Quran cant be guaranteed of purity unless all of it is pure and if Allah protected Muhammad [sa] his legacy is also protected [Quran, Hadith, sahaba [ra] and the truth will be protected as in what the majority accept, not opposing Quran and Hadith at anytime].



the 'writer; of the Quran was not called to write a large portion of it but the whole of it not because of the different reading when it was first made into a single "Book" by Abu Bakr [RA]. it was because there was concern that the reciters who have committed the whole into memory were just killed wholesale. reciters of various amounts of the Quran were many and no muslim can't reciter surah fatiha and many other surahs. A new whole could be made from the parts of the whole in the memory of individuals if need be. But why wait to see disaster that you can avoid, instead of avoiding it, you get into it and with over whelming disaster you will be looking for solution to remedy it.



The muslims were smart because God gave them wisdom because the emotional stress of losing so many by a single disaster [100 reciters who were members of this young community], did not devastate them enough that they were not able to think about the future generations and success of islam as a movement. True to Allah in the message of Islam, just as the death of the messenger [SA] did not deter them, the muslims were focused in spite of it and the death of the 100 brought them solutions of preservation in a single unit, A Complete Book. if you know that there was no record of a single and complete Book bind "Quran" in the time of Abu Bakr [RA], bring your evidence here for all to see.



Why write a "large portion" and not the whole if your intention is to preserve the whole and not just the large portion? could you tell us which large portion and while at it answer the question of why not the whole was written down? If satan was successful after prophet [SA], which part was the success of satan? if you dont know it is because you made it up and there is no truth to it. Incidentally, since satan was not successful in the presence of the prophet [SA], the reality of stopping satan [lana] was left in Quran and the wisdom [Hadith and Sunnah], both with the muslims to this day.


If the first generation of the christians had followed the system of the third caliphah [Uthman [RA]], today, you will not have a 4 version of a single story about the man Jesus in the bible where each disagrees with the others in various degrees about a good portion of the details. Yet the Gospel which Jesus preached is not one of the 4 about his life. there would not been a need for the writing of Paul that seem to supersede anything he and Jesus have different position in, because you naturally take the position of paul as the truth and it is no wonder the disciples of Jesus are third rate in the struggle for truth, where paul is number 1.



Your suggestion of satan making an inroad into recitation is only your suggestion and you are entitled to it, even though you have no evidence that could not be immediately made weak. i wonder if satan can ever succeed with a fellow cursing him each time and seeking the Protection of God against satan and his followers? conscious muslims are aware of the deception of satan and InshaAllah we will not fall into it. Amin.




The {write] does not have to make guess work of Quran since it is the collective effort of the community to produce what it is; what was revealed to the prophet [SA]. there were at least 4 complete original "Quran" packages in the lifetime of the prophet [SA] because by wisdom from Allah, The prophet [sa] commissioned the scribes to pen them for his safekeeping, complete and parts of the same Quran in the hands of the muslims [RA], memorization of the Quran in the community because they have to use it in daily 5 salats, night salats, reading it as in recitation or written down so as to master it and not forget it, using it for societal occasions and ceremonies; marriages, etc, ending a meeting, making duas, etc. with all of these, while Ali ibn Abi Talib [RA] and others were still alive, it is impossible to assume that Allah Who promised to safeguard it Himself will allow satan to have a hand in the affairs of the muslims.




it was in the backdrop of all of these that Abu Bakr [ra] with consensus of the community made the first Book Bind, The Quran that was trusted to the trustee "Hafsa" [RA} and this was also the material basis for the 5 produced by Uthman [RA] after the time of Umar [RA]. It is impossible for satan to have hand successfully what God guaranteed it purity because Allah and satan can not be on the same thing at the same time. Since Allah says He will be Always on the matter concerning the Quran because it is the last revelation satan can not enter it and definitely by its purity man will not have any argument as to why he abandoned it in front of Allah the Protector Who makes it easy for whoever wishes to study it.


you mr. cleanvessel is at a loss. If Muhammad [SA] was protected by Allah so that the deception of satan is nil then it is not possible that Allah will do less after Muhammad [SA] left the best of community eager to carry the message to the end of the world and many died in foreign lands. True, Muhammad [SA] heard and saw The Light that veiled him from ever seeing His Lord, while he needed to be on earth still delivering the message. If one who Allah loves that much left trusted emissaries behind, it is reasonable for the One is Able to accomplish it to the end protect the trust in the hands of the emissaries. If you can look at the biblical God in this very light, you will see that Jesus was not killed and if the Bible was protected and uncorrupted, there was no reason to read the once upon a time type of writing where mere suggestions and opinions of Paul entered the "sacred" book called the bible.

please tell us how s Quran guess work? if you can't, ten you may be asking yourself, how dare?

actually, i saw something that attracted my fancy on NL: (Quote) (Report) (Like)
Re: Task Force Arrest Local Masquerade (picture) by moscobabs(m): 12:14pm
ara orun ndobale...lol grin grin grin grin grin grin grin

(Quote) (Report) (Like)
Re: Task Force Arrest Local Masquerade (picture) by bankyblue(m): 12:23pm
My people do say masquerade re not of this world? Why now lay in
Front of ordinary mortals? The pix funny die. lolz



here is my remark which i have sent to 2 christian friends: if spirit is captured by human, the spirit is weaker than te human. if spirit is humiliated, the spirit is powerless. if mortal is able to overcome a spirit, it must be justice because the spirit is evil and the mortal is on the side of law and righteous.

whats your opinion?

@ RoyPCain

All your explanations so far are not relevant to the hadith under reference. You have only stated your personal opinions.

I just want to ask you two main questions on the hadith under reference: There was the concern that the quran was about going into extinction if something was not done about it. So the writer was called to put the recitations down in writing.

At that time there were diffenrences in memorizers' recitations already. Something had gone wrong.

1. How did the writer pick the correct ones from the contradicting recitations by the memorizers as he could not hear from Allah for confirmation?

Remember in islam only Muhammad could hear from Allah as the prophet. If the writer could not get confirmation from Allah, what he was left with was guessing which recitations were correct and which were incorrect. That is why I call it guess-works. The ONLY surety was to confirm from Allah which was not the case.

2. Why was the original manuscripts burnt off? I believe it was to make cross-checks impossibe. Let's here your answer.



Remember, the topic of the thread is 'Nobody Can Corrupt the Bible'. This is based on the quranic statement that nothing can change Allah's word.

If you conlude torah and gospel had been changed or thrown away, the implication is that Allah is incapable of protecting his torah and gospel, thereby making his statement in the quran that nothing can change his words null and void. I don't know if that is what you mean by spirit being captured by humans or something.

@cleanvessel: my opinion is from the wisdom of Islam. everything I said about preservation of the revealed Quran in Audible Voice to Muhammad [SA] and he [sa] to his community of believers [RA] and non believers knowing that it is Quran falls under the Another Comforter which is the Holy Spirit [Prophet of God] shall hear God and shall repeat what he hears. What is very interest in this case is that God said He will be The Protector. We in Islam are allowed to use our mind to understand reality of spirituality.

Allah protected the Quran from the moment it was revealed to the Prophet [Sa]; God made it easy for the heart of the prophet to capture it and be able to recall it from memory in the way a read is read a book. But to get it to the community, the scribes writes them down immediately. so from the get go, you have at least 4 official ORIGINALS with the prophet. The community heard revelation and write it down, which are additional ORIGINALS. The individual [RA] muslims may have all of the Quran or part according to opportunities of writing down he/her Original and definitely through memorization because he/she must use The Quran for Salat, etc.

The Hajj of the prophet [SA] was reported to have about 100,000 people making the hajj. Each of the 100,000 persons was a reciter and means of guardianship of the purity of the Quran. Lets just say 5% of these people memorized the 100% of the Quran, that will be 5,000 people. Even if we agree only 1,000 people. The slaughter of the muslims that prompted the manufacturing of the Book Form of the Quran took 100 of them. But 1 life was 1 too much. in the community still were Ali Abi Talib, ibn Mas'ud, and many many more [RA] memorizers in Madina when the Abu Bakr [RA] launched the First Book Form.

And to answer your 2 questions, Allah is called upon in every affairs of Muslims even when you are sure of success, humility to Allah is worship. so with all the resources in the community all of them in front of the scribe, hearing from Allah does not have to be by voice but guidance to get it right by The Guidance of The Guide Who said He is The Guard of it, for the lifetime of man. You may not know, Quran is easy on the tongue and the heart can easily take it and understand it, if Allah guide the heart.


Burning of the Quran is the easiest way to dispose it when you dont need it. We burn it even now if it becomes a rag. The original Manuscript[s] as you call it were burnt because at least the complete book forms are now in the community, so why keep parchments, still? It has been standardized to book form, let this standard [book form] becomes the thing to have.


Allah did not reveal the Bible, though the bible contains something of the Torah which Allah revealed to Moses, something of the sabur which Allah revealed to David and something of the Injil which Allah revealed to Jesus son of Mary. with all of that Allah did not reveal the Bible to any prophet, unless you name the prophet that received the revelation. And not all that Allah revealed of Torah, Sabur and Injil are in the Bible and what from each that are in the Bible are at best just ideas, but original in word for word or in original language. Since Allah didnt say He will protect any of the 3, we see from the bible that Jeremiah says that The OT is corrupted by the pen of the scribes.


What promised is firm and He keeps His Promise; Guarding the Quran.

RoyPCain: @cleanvessel: my opinion is from the wisdom of Islam. everything I said about preservation of the revealed Quran in Audible Voice to Muhammad [SA] and he [sa] to his community of believers [RA] and non believers knowing that it is Quran falls under the Another Comforter which is the Holy Spirit [Prophet of God] shall hear God and shall repeat what he hears. What is very interest in this case is that God said He will be The Protector. We in Islam are allowed to use our mind to understand reality of spirituality.

Allah protected the Quran from the moment it was revealed to the Prophet [Sa]; God made it easy for the heart of the prophet to capture it and be able to recall it from memory in the way a read is read a book. But to get it to the community, the scribes writes them down immediately. so from the get go, you have at least 4 official ORIGINALS with the prophet. The community heard revelation and write it down, which are additional ORIGINALS. The individual [RA] muslims may have all of the Quran or part according to opportunities of writing down he/her Original and definitely through memorization because he/she must use The Quran for Salat, etc.

The Hajj of the prophet [SA] was reported to have about 100,000 people making the hajj. Each of the 100,000 persons was a reciter and means of guardianship of the purity of the Quran. Lets just say 5% of these people memorized the 100% of the Quran, that will be 5,000 people. Even if we agree only 1,000 people. The slaughter of the muslims that prompted the manufacturing of the Book Form of the Quran took 100 of them. But 1 life was 1 too much. in the community still were Ali Abi Talib, ibn Mas'ud, and many many more [RA] memorizers in Madina when the Abu Bakr [RA] launched the First Book Form.

And to answer your 2 questions, Allah is called upon in every affairs of Muslims even when you are sure of success, humility to Allah is worship. so with all the resources in the community all of them in front of the scribe, hearing from Allah does not have to be by voice but guidance to get it right by The Guidance of The Guide Who said He is The Guard of it, for the lifetime of man. You may not know, Quran is easy on the tongue and the heart can easily take it and understand it, if Allah guide the heart.


Burning of the Quran is the easiest way to dispose it when you dont need it. We burn it even now if it becomes a rag. The original Manuscript[s] as you call it were burnt because at least the complete book forms are now in the community, so why keep parchments, still? It has been standardized to book form, let this standard [book form] becomes the thing to have.


Allah did not reveal the Bible, though the bible contains something of the Torah which Allah revealed to Moses, something of the sabur which Allah revealed to David and something of the Injil which Allah revealed to Jesus son of Mary. with all of that Allah did not reveal the Bible to any prophet, unless you name the prophet that received the revelation. And not all that Allah revealed of Torah, Sabur and Injil are in the Bible and what from each that are in the Bible are at best just ideas, but original in word for word or in original language. Since Allah didnt say He will protect any of the 3, we see from the bible that Jeremiah says that The OT is corrupted by the pen of the scribes.


What promised is firm and He keeps His Promise; Guarding the Quran.

Your quran confirms that there were torah and gospel earlier to the quran. I put it to you that as Allah failed to protect his torah and gospel, that you people cannot find them till today, he also failed to protect the quran.

Bukhari Book 6, Volume 61, Haddith 510

Narrated By Anas bin Malik : Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) DIFFERENCES IN THE RECITATIONS OF THE QURAN, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

If Allah would protect the quran, there would not have been differences in the recitation of the memorizers. All you have expressed are your personal opinions, which cannot be established in your religious books. Since there were differences in the recitations of the memorizers, how was the writer able to pick the correct ones as he could not hear from Allah? As there was noway he could confirm from Allah because he could not hear from Him, his writings become a guess-work.

I again put it to you that today's quran is a guess-work as the writer could not confirm from Allah the accuracy of the ones he eventually wrote down from the contradicting recitations by the memorizers. Thank you.

@cleanvessel: you asked me to clarify matters for you, including answering your two questions. i did clarify and answered your two questions. it is up to you to accept what i said or reject part or the whole of it. the truth is firm and there is nothing you or i can do about the past.

if you do not see the Guaranteeing of Allah to protect The Quran in the story of the muslims you penned above to get a complete "Quran" to syria/shams, from the headquarters where Islam was completes from the company of those who were there at the completion, even were there from the start, unlike the dominance of Paul in new testament, i really cant help your mind.

if you walked into a dialogue with your younger brother making a case for a high fence in addition to cctv and neighborhood watch so that your home is protected and no one who is not supposed to be on the property can be prevented, if you do not understand that also included thieves, i can see why you are still fighting about discrepancies of recitations of the Quran, while you are trying hard to rope-in the 'incorruptibility of the' bible along in here. again, if nothing else, jeremiah tells us that ot is corrupted by the pen of the scribe. nt itself tells us that nt is corrupt by the 4 stories about jesus [instead of the gospel that was revealed to jesus which jesus preached to people] which none of them is a complete or accurate account, because where any intersect with another, they almost always have different details pointing to different holy ghost inspiring each of them [more like 4 holy ghosts for 4 different inspirations].

i dont know where you are from. if you are a yoruba person, egba will speak/recite yoruba oral story with egba accent. ijebu will recite with ijebu accent. oyo may say shin instead of sin, ondo will say beeni while ibadan will say benshin. ekiti will say ora instead of rora. to standardize, if the story is to be taken to bini, maybe it is eko yoruba that we all settle upon, even though i prefer yoruba ibadan. this is the case with the condition of expansion problem where the solution is made easy as the ruler in madina did by producing Qurans from Quran. 'different recitations' is mercy from Allah on muslims so that an indian or chinese who l instead of r is understood in consideration of his cultural quality, just like an arab will say baber when he really means paper. it is the Guidance of Allah guaranteed that did not make the next generation of Muslims, like Paul in the next generation after the disciples over ride what was on the ground. The muslims believed Muhammad [SA] and when he said the best generation is his [sahaba [RA]] with him, they did not fight the sahaba like Paul did peter, telling/challenging peter to his face.


how such a solution is guess work is only from your own desire to deny the obvious. it producing the Quran was an experiment, it should win nobel prize, every year for literature every year, in addition, economics, medicine, chemistry, etc.

@cleanvessel and @pointblank is just a Typical christian.

You have not solved you predicaments on the topic of this particular thread, but you prefer to derail the thread with false jargon.

This thread is not for you to question the authencity of the Qur'an (create another thread for that), but its for us to question that of the bible (which you'll also agree you don't have good answers to) and if you think you do, the question still remains;

Has the bible been corrupted or not?!!! .

@ golpen

Hi,

I'm surprised you are the one asking for a thread on the topic of quran. Have I not opened it before (Today's Quran Is Not the Original), which tbaba and golpen (yourself) did weakly defend and for lack of knowing what to do next, the thread was deleted?

Now again you ran away under the excuse of derailing the thread. If you know the truth and deliberately refuse to follow it, why prevent others from it by deleting threads? You keep concealing the truth at the eternal peril of the people, don't you think God will not be happy about that?

Every truth spoken agains islam is offensive, are you protecting your God? I know God is capable of defending Himself and also defend His people and not the opposite.

@cleanvessel

I am still yet to understand your plights, may be because I'm so concerned about the each thread for each discussion policy.

And okay I agree with you that you get an answer of your deleted post, which you have accused me of defending weakly, only IF we can get to a conclusion on the topic of this particular thread. It is you that have run away on this particular thread, only to come back and derail it with a deleted thread issue, ignoring your own contribution and dilemma on this thread.

Answer the question according to the posts on this thread first, before we proceed.

HAS THE BIBLE BEEN CORRUPTED OR NOT

RoyPCain: @cleanvessel: you asked me to clarify matters for you, including answering your two questions. i did clarify and answered your two questions. it is up to you to accept what i said or reject part or the whole of it. the truth is firm and there is nothing you or i can do about the past.

if you do not see the Guaranteeing of Allah to protect The Quran in the story of the muslims you penned above to get a complete "Quran" to syria/shams, from the headquarters where Islam was completes from the company of those who were there at the completion, even were there from the start, unlike the dominance of Paul in new testament, i really cant help your mind.

if you walked into a dialogue with your younger brother making a case for a high fence in addition to cctv and neighborhood watch so that your home is protected and no one who is not supposed to be on the property can be prevented, if you do not understand that also included thieves, i can see why you are still fighting about discrepancies of recitations of the Quran, while you are trying hard to rope-in the 'incorruptibility of the' bible along in here. again, if nothing else, jeremiah tells us that ot is corrupted by the pen of the scribe. nt itself tells us that nt is corrupt by the 4 stories about jesus [instead of the gospel that was revealed to jesus which jesus preached to people] which none of them is a complete or accurate account, because where any intersect with another, they almost always have different details pointing to different holy ghost inspiring each of them [more like 4 holy ghosts for 4 different inspirations].

i dont know where you are from. if you are a yoruba person, egba will speak/recite yoruba oral story with egba accent. ijebu will recite with ijebu accent. oyo may say shin instead of sin, ondo will say beeni while ibadan will say benshin. ekiti will say ora instead of rora. to standardize, if the story is to be taken to bini, maybe it is eko yoruba that we all settle upon, even though i prefer yoruba ibadan. this is the case with the condition of expansion problem where the solution is made easy as the ruler in madina did by producing Qurans from Quran. 'different recitations' is mercy from Allah on muslims so that an indian or chinese who l instead of r is understood in consideration of his cultural quality, just like an arab will say baber when he really means paper. it is the Guidance of Allah guaranteed that did not make the next generation of Muslims, like Paul in the next generation after the disciples over ride what was on the ground. The muslims believed Muhammad [SA] and when he said the best generation is his [sahaba [RA]] with him, they did not fight the sahaba like Paul did peter, telling/challenging peter to his face.


how such a solution is guess work is only from your own desire to deny the obvious. it producing the Quran was an experiment, it should win nobel prize, every year for literature every year, in addition, economics, medicine, chemistry, etc.

I cannot see you guys dancing out of this trouble. You are trying to create the impression that the differences were dialectical. That is very untrue. The fear that was expressed in the hadith was that the quran would disappear as the Jews and Christians allowed the torah and injil to disappear. Quran cannot disappear due to dialectical differences. Whether it is recited in yoruba egba, ijebu, oyo or ijesha, it would still convey the same meaning, there was no reason for them to entertain any fear on this. What actually was wrong was the contradictions in the recitations of the memorizers, in which case the writer has no choice but to gamble on which recitations were correct. I totally agree that the writer did a guess-work trying to know the correct among the different recitations.

@pointblank321; if the fear was because they do not want the Quran to disappear as in corruption [instead of 'so' somebody may say 'then', while somebody else says 'and' while another keeps the original 'so' still] of the text, the easiest quarter that it can take place will be on the lips of new community and not the old which is the source of human effort by Allah to safeguard the purity.


Allah says about the torah and injil concerning corruption the following loose meaning; woe to those who write with their hands and say it is from God. another verse; they change the words from their right places, with their mouth twisted the words.

Quran is in authentic arabic, not street arabic and you can not read it in anything else except in its purity because it will correct you. a reciter who use his accent, you can know that he does not know any other way except the way it he said it.

when you say contradiction in the recitations of the memorizers, can you give an example if you can not thoroughly explain what you mean? when you accuse, you have the burden of proof is on you.


how can there be a guess work when the community resources to product the Quran include the 4 complete sets penned down based on the commissioning of the messenger as the revelation in progress, the whole or parts of whole in possessions of individuals, the remaining community where many are memorizers of the whole Quran and everyone in the community have in memory as much as they have? i am wondering if you know what amount of resources left after the 100 people; what was in the community before the 100 died, less the 100 people [RA]. there were still the 4 abdUllah, Ali bin Abi Talib, etc.

@ RoyPCain

I tell you the truth, the problem was not that of diatet. Muhammad must know where the reciters came from before he gave them the recitations. He would not expect them to pronounce the same way because they didn't come from the same area. So dialet was not the problem.

Example of contradictions you ask? Contradiction could come in any form. Muhammad too had that problem when satan cast some recitations into his tongue, the timely intervention of Allah saved the situation and that was because Muhammad was hearing from Allah. Therefore the contradictions could be due to satan's intervention and could have changed the entire message of Allah. Unfortunately, the writter had no means of verification. He could only guess.

The issue of the whole community involved in compiling the quran made no difference. It was not the whole members of the community that had the recitation in their memory. If they were up to 5 million in number, they would have to listen to the memorizers. The community had nothing to contribute to the recitations.

Therefore the quran remains a guess-work.

@pointblank321; if you dont know, please dont make things up because the whole world may remember you by what you making up. the reality is that in the lifetime of the prophet [SA], whoever wanted to become muslim comes to Makka, when he was in Makka. When he migrated to Madina, whoever wanted to become muslim comes to Madina. i really dont know how you come about your "Muhammad must know where the reciters came from before he gave them the recitations. He would not expect them to pronounce the same way because they didn't come from the same area. So dialet was not the problem." as you stated, above?

evidently, it seems as if you do not know who was leading the muslim community at the time of the death of the 100 reciters which was the only reason for the suggestion of Quran in a Book Form. the prophet [SA] has passed and Abu Bakr [RA] was the ruler, when this effort to preserve it took place. if the prophet [SA] was alive at this time, maybe there would not have been such a big panic or debate because the true master was among them. Allah has determined what He determined, hence the making the Quran to a book took place as it did, therefore, not only guaranteed that the revelation will get to future generation, not only by oral transmittal but also as a complete package in book form instead of parchments, while the heart of the companions [RA] was at peace that InshaAllah, it is a noble effort.


let me propose something to you before i forget. if somebody were to bring to the attention of Nigerians after MKO [ra] had pssed that he witnessed him hand in hand with General Babangida and MKO announced that was in agreement with the annulment of the June 12 election that he won. do you think Nigerians will believe the was telling the true that he saw what he reported, when it is clear to all and on record today and June 12 is an annual event in nigeria and for many nigerian that MKO was arrested, detained and died in detention, all the while till the end rejected the annulment? if the whole citizenry of Nigeria and indeed the whole of the world say with one voice that they saw, heard that MKO, gave up his right as the person said, if such a farce was agreed upon by the whole world is not as bad and sickening as the deceptions of those who concocted the "satanic verses" ever happened, because it was not possible to have happened as a fact. it is their own fact but in reality a lie because Allah has sealed their hearts against truth and has allowed satan to control them which is the only reason they could arrive at something this despicable because the commitment of Muhammad [SA] to his mission couple with the history of the pagans against him and his community could not have allowed the possibility of anything remotely "satanic" and definitely no satanic verse to enter the book of Allah. whenever you wish to discuss this matter, let me know.


As i read your post, above, you seem not to know what contradiction is in the context you think you are proposing it, because you didn't provide a clear example or answered my question about contradiction you claimed was occuring. to be using the alleged "satanic verses" as your illustration, saying satan cast some recitations "into his tongue" will not do. If Allah is protecting Muhammad [SA] will it not be impossible for satan to cast some recitations into the tongue of the prophet [SA], especially when Allah is unlike the God Whose heart grieves or repenting God? it is impossible for Allah to be The Protector and satan will have a chance to influence what Allah is "guarding". when Truth is guaranteed there is no change for lie to filter in. Allah is not tired or weary, so unlike other Gods, He is Aware 100% of the time. so there is no existence of your "the timely intervention of Allah saved the situation . . ." because Allah is never unaware.


its obvious to everyone here except you and those who intend to egg you on on this path you are now looking bad because your explanation is guess work at best and will not satisfy anyone with any amount of truth in him because your "the contradiction could be due to satan intervention . . ." shows you are just writing without any proof.


Quran is in the heart of muslims today and it is possible in any community and any time to produce from scratch the whole Quran exactly as it is, from the memory of those who have memorized it. the level of commitment of the people of today is nothing compared to the level of commitment to islam of the companions [RA]. it is them you are talking about thinking that they are the lukewarm type of faith as the people Jesus castigated as people of little faith.

RoyPCain: @pointblank321; if you dont know, please dont make things up because the whole world may remember you by what you making up. the reality is that in the lifetime of the prophet [SA], whoever wanted to become muslim comes to Makka, when he was in Makka. When he migrated to Madina, whoever wanted to become muslim comes to Madina. i really dont know how you come about your "Muhammad must know where the reciters came from before he gave them the recitations. He would not expect them to pronounce the same way because they didn't come from the same area. So dialet was not the problem." as you stated, above?

evidently, it seems as if you do not know who was leading the muslim community at the time of the death of the 100 reciters which was the only reason for the suggestion of Quran in a Book Form. the prophet [SA] has passed and Abu Bakr [RA] was the ruler, when this effort to preserve it took place. if the prophet [SA] was alive at this time, maybe there would not have been such a big panic or debate because the true master was among them. Allah has determined what He determined, hence the making the Quran to a book took place as it did, therefore, not only guaranteed that the revelation will get to future generation, not only by oral transmittal but also as a complete package in book form instead of parchments, while the heart of the companions [RA] was at peace that InshaAllah, it is a noble effort.


let me propose something to you before i forget. if somebody were to bring to the attention of Nigerians after MKO [ra] had pssed that he witnessed him hand in hand with General Babangida and MKO announced that was in agreement with the annulment of the June 12 election that he won. do you think Nigerians will believe the was telling the true that he saw what he reported, when it is clear to all and on record today and June 12 is an annual event in nigeria and for many nigerian that MKO was arrested, detained and died in detention, all the while till the end rejected the annulment? if the whole citizenry of Nigeria and indeed the whole of the world say with one voice that they saw, heard that MKO, gave up his right as the person said, if such a farce was agreed upon by the whole world is not as bad and sickening as the deceptions of those who concocted the "satanic verses" ever happened, because it was not possible to have happened as a fact. it is their own fact but in reality a lie because Allah has sealed their hearts against truth and has allowed satan to control them which is the only reason they could arrive at something this despicable because the commitment of Muhammad [SA] to his mission couple with the history of the pagans against him and his community could not have allowed the possibility of anything remotely "satanic" and definitely no satanic verse to enter the book of Allah. whenever you wish to discuss this matter, let me know.


As i read your post, above, you seem not to know what contradiction is in the context you think you are proposing it, because you didn't provide a clear example or answered my question about contradiction you claimed was occuring. to be using the alleged "satanic verses" as your illustration, saying satan cast some recitations "into his tongue" will not do. If Allah is protecting Muhammad [SA] will it not be impossible for satan to cast some recitations into the tongue of the prophet [SA], especially when Allah is unlike the God Whose heart grieves or repenting God? it is impossible for Allah to be The Protector and satan will have a chance to influence what Allah is "guarding". when Truth is guaranteed there is no change for lie to filter in. Allah is not tired or weary, so unlike other Gods, He is Aware 100% of the time. so there is no existence of your "the timely intervention of Allah saved the situation . . ." because Allah is never unaware.


its obvious to everyone here except you and those who intend to egg you on on this path you are now looking bad because your explanation is guess work at best and will not satisfy anyone with any amount of truth in him because your "the contradiction could be due to satan intervention . . ." shows you are just writing without any proof.


Quran is in the heart of muslims today and it is possible in any community and any time to produce from scratch the whole Quran exactly as it is, from the memory of those who have memorized it. the level of commitment of the people of today is nothing compared to the level of commitment to islam of the companions [RA]. it is them you are talking about thinking that they are the lukewarm type of faith as the people Jesus castigated as people of little faith.

Dialect was not the problem I repeat. You said people who accepted islam came from various places to Medina. Wouldn't Muhammad want to know them before dealing with them? Wouldn't he know them well before he would give them recitations? It is a matter of commonsense that he had to know the people he was using. There shouldn't be any argument as to whether he knew their dialect or not. He must know. Besides, as I said before, dialect is not capable of changing the meaning of the quran.

You also asked for the contradictions which I am talking about. It is a well known fact that Allah if he the omniscient God shouldn't make mistakes or commit blunders. Isn't it? But see below a few of the blunders found in the quran, possible as a result of the differences in the memorizers' recitations:

1. What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
1. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
2. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
3. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
4. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
5. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).


2. Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
1. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
2. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
3. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).


3. The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).


4. Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
1. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
2. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).


5. Are Allah's decrees changed or not?
1. "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
2. "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
3. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
4. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).


6. Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
1. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
2. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).


7. Is wine consumption good or bad?
1. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
2. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
3. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).

@pointblank321; if you said God made sure that contradiction did not enter the Quran in the lifetime of the prophet [SA] then all you listed were in the Quran during the lifetime of the prophet, therefore they are not contradictions. you should find your contradiction outside the Quran or give us verses you know where not part of the Quran before the Muslims lost the 100 reciters [RA]. if you can not do that, please let it go but accept that you are wrong, completely wrong. i will just deconstruct the 1st and last sets you listed to show you that they were not contradictions and they logical and reasonable verses agree with one another in each set in a prefect progression, if you apply any understand and or wisdom;

Dialect was not the problem I repeat. You said people who accepted islam came from various places to Medina. Wouldn't Muhammad want to know them before dealing with them? Wouldn't he know them well before he would give them recitations? It is a matter of commonsense that he had to know the people he was using. There shouldn't be any argument as to whether he knew their dialect or not. He must know. Besides, as I said before, dialect is not capable of changing the meaning of the quran.

You also asked for the contradictions which I am talking about. It is a well known fact that Allah if he the omniscient God shouldn't make mistakes or commit blunders. Isn't it? But see below a few of the blunders found in the quran, possible as a result of the differences in the memorizers' recitations:

1. What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
1. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
2. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
3. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
4. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
5. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).

all human from womn goes through fetus development, gestation stages. there is a stage between the initial fusion of sperm and egg and fully developed baby ready for normal birth that the object is bloody. as we are also children of Adam [AS], we are in reality created from what he was created from; clay formed from the initial dust collected for the form/shaping as in pottery. before the dust that was made to clay was collected, man was nothing. God does not sit at pottery spinning wheel and begin forming, but commands each creation to being what it will finally be from the nothing state or anything state it is at the time of Command. Jesus was commanded into the womb of Mary and there is no need for overshadowing her and coming upon her.

7. Is wine consumption good or bad?
1. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
2. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
3. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).

you know that a drink is more demented that a crazy person. if you dont know, you have a lifetime to know this fact. if a person than a crazy man, definitely satan is directing him because God is directing him, he will not be worse than a crazy man. If God gives you something and says it is good, He has made it good along with it is a goodly effect in you from it. there is non alcoholic wine in this world of ours. you are not intoxicated by the non alcoholic wine. it is alcohol that intoxicates. so the river of wine will be non alcoholic and it will not intoxicate you but makes you happy as in joyful. i am not sure that you know how poor your examples of contradictions are. if i show you contradiction from the bible to illustrate contradiction, can you bring me something like that from the Quran; something that is illogical?

@ RoyPCain

If all the contractions listed happened in Muhammad's time, it shows his revelations were not from the true God, who is not subject to error.

Even the very few defences you put up are errorneous. If man is created from fetus development, gestation stage etc, is that creation or procreation?

Quran made a very serious error when it says man was created from clot. Whose clot did God use to create Adam? You see, when you muslims talk about the quran being glorious, I feel sad for them because I know it is satanic manipulations. May God deliver you from Satan.

The truth remains that the quran is a guess-work.

@cleanvessel: This is my last response on this matter; If a child is young, mom will put him in diapers. when he gets older he wears pull ups. at some point, he is able to control his waste movements, he wears under garment. as e gets older, he does not allow mom to dress him. there will come a time mom can not come to his space unannounced or see him without properly covered. throughout the changes above the boy is still omo mommy. is there any contradiction in his life story because he was needing mom's effort to diaper at one stage and at another, he doesn't so much so that mom cant see her young man without covering anymore? think about that and that solve the confusion you "intentionally" holds on to. and it is the same you who says God is now human killed by humans.

RoyPCain: @cleanvessel: This is my last response on this matter; If a child is young, mom will put him in diapers. when he gets older he wears pull ups. at some point, he is able to control his waste movements, he wears under garment. as e gets older, he does not allow mom to dress him. there will come a time mom can not come to his space unannounced or see him without properly covered. throughout the changes above the boy is still omo mommy. is there any contradiction in his life story because he was needing mom's effort to diaper at one stage and at another, he doesn't so much so that mom cant see her young man without covering anymore? think about that and that solve the confusion you "intentionally" holds on to. and it is the same you who says God is now human killed by humans.

Whatever you intend to draw out from your analogy, the truth remains that the quran is not only full of errors (an evidence that it is not from the true God), it is mere guess-works, therefore not holy or glorious. Thank you.

golpen: @cleanvessel

I am still yet to understand your plights, may be because I'm so concerned about the each thread for each discussion policy.

And okay I agree with you that you get an answer of your deleted post, which you have accused me of defending weakly, only IF we can get to a conclusion on the topic of this particular thread. It is you that have run away on this particular thread, only to come back and derail it with a deleted thread issue, ignoring your own contribution and dilemma on this thread.

Answer the question according to the posts on this thread first, before we proceed.

HAS THE BIBLE BEEN CORRUPTED OR NOT

The Bible is not corrupted. It is valid, full of life and power. Thank you.

cleanvessel:

The Bible is not corrupted. It is valid, full of life and power. Thank you.

HYPOCRISY!!!!

golpen:

HYPOCRISY!!!!

Chief Judge of Nairaland. Thank you.