shdemidemi:

But Paul said everything that was written aforetime were written for our learning. Is learning not different from doctrine?

Learning and doctrine are on the same pedestal, they are both for teaching,correction and instruction in righteousness.

JesusisLord85: Just like in court, a lying witness will be trapped by his own words. I posted this is another thread. So FlourishG, be warned, lest I expose you also:

am i reading you right?expose me for what?my teachings?okay.lemme start with u now looks like i hv time for u today n let's see who's gone expose who.do u know christians have no business to do with old testament?if u ask me y, then i will tell u but if u don't understand n just lift my statement,then you not patient enough n cannot be a good teacher.i listen to pple n understand them b4 i launch my missile of da word.

shdemidemi:

Bidam, this is where I tend to disagree with you. You will back the devil just to check the excesses of the righteous.

And here am I, thinking my discussions with you so far has been free of rancor. Now you jump in support of such behaviour and call it righteous

Bidam: I am backing no one here. I am against truth mixed with error which you and flourish are guilty of.

point it out where i mix truth with error.am waiting please.

Syncan:

And here am I, thinking my discussions with you so far has been free of rancor. Now you jump in support of such behaviour and call it righteous

if i talk now u will say i insult u.did shdemidemi called my behaviour righteous or me he called righteous?y don't u understand a statement b4 u talk?read shdemidemi's statement again.

flourishG: point it out where i mix truth with error.am waiting please.

You said paul said the law was abolished.

Syncan:

And here am I, thinking my discussions with you so far has been free of rancor. Now you jump in support of such behaviour and call it righteous

What actually makes one righteous?

I did not mean you are a devil by the way, I was using that as an analogy to show how far bidam can go to ridicule what irks him.

Bidam: You said paul said the law was abolished.

Romans 8

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

What can you deduce from those verses.

flourishG: if i talk now u will say i insult u.did shdemidemi called my behaviour righteous or me he called righteous?y don't u understand a statement b4 u talk?read shdemidemi's statement again.

My bad please, I promise henceforth to respond to others only and Ignore yours even when directed to me.

shdemidemi I am going to give you a chance to amend your doctrine. I proved that it didn't line up.
You said Jews must obey the law. yet you interpreted Acts 10 to mean Peter (Jew) can eat unclean meat.
You then say once you are saved, it doesnt matter if you sin or are in a state of sin e.g. adultery, you will go to heaven just like that. But at the same time, you said I am lost to the devil or something like that - obviously just to frighten me into joining your sect.
Of course, there are two gospels in your mind. You may amend that if you wish. Let me know so I can stop poking the same holes in you everyday.

Until you tell me your new belief, I will have to ignore you too as I am ignoring FlourishG

Bidam: You said paul said the law was abolished.

that's y when u talking to pple,u need relax,understand.Yes,the law was abolished.so which law was abolished?that's da question because there are kinds of law u know.what law is abolished.can u asswer that please?

shdemidemi:

Romans 8

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

What can you deduce from those verses.

Oh! not again, we have gone thru this scripture time without number and my stand is still that the law was a pointer to sin,hence it condemns.Jesus paid the penalty of that condemnation just like the woman found in adultery was a perfect example found in scripture."All have sinned". The content of the law never changed,it was the old agreement that changed and that was why it was a shadow. No wonder Paul said shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.Even in the OT we heard God saying the cup of the amorites is not yet filled up.If God was that merciful to sinners of old, how much more in this new dispensation and age.There is a day of judgement remember

shdemidemi:

Romans 8

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

What can you deduce from those verses.

you need to stop quoting verses to these pple reason is,the scriptures u quote to them are too full of things their eyes cannot see nor can they understand.u need to start reasoning scriptures with them like paul did with those judaizers in acts of apostles.that's what i learnt from d apostle.start talking (not quoting) scriptures with them.that's one key to destroy these judaizers among christianity.they were problem to the gospel given to paul n they still problem till date.do u decode my message?

Bidam:

The content of the law never changed,it was the old agreement that changed and that was why it was a shadow.

that is one of the statement looks like d ones judaizers make.do u know the law is part of the old agreement n covenant?and when the old chnages to new,the law also changes.do u know that?

flourishG: that is one of the statement looks like d ones judaizers make.do u know the law is part of the old agreement n covenant?and when the old chnages to new,the law also changes.do u know that?

I am busy now. I will reply all your posts later.Thanks.

Bidam: I am busy now. I will reply all your posts later.Thanks.

okay.blessed!

I never said Jews must obey the law

I said Peter was in a trance, through the trance God showed him how he cannot forbid to eat anything made by God. In extension he cannot keep calling the Gentiles unclean cos they are now a part of the fold.

Our body and their member are 'factory made' sinful. the religious man is a sinner, the moral person is a sinner , the immoral person is also a sinner. The only one righteous in God's mind is whoever believe the gospel of Christ plus nothing.

God is interested in our soul not our body. The more we feed our inner man with the true word of God, the more our body memberes follow suit.

If I say I deliver you to the devil. I mean the devil can destroy a man's body but he cannot destroy the soul. Similar to what Paul did in Corinthians with the man that slept with his dads wife.

There is a gospel of the kingdom of Israel in line with the promise Abraham got. These gospel goes all the way down to tribulation.

There is a gospel to the church which ends at rapture. The church would be caught up with Christ in the air, they will be back with Christ to judge Israel .




This is what I propagate, if you think I am wrong, tough. You can ask questions if you disagree and I will definitely try to answer as best as I can. Thank you

flourishG: you need to stop quoting verses to these pple reason is,the scriptures u quote to them are too full of things their eyes cannot see nor can they understand.u need to start reasoning scriptures with them like paul did with those judaizers in acts of apostles.that's what i learnt from d apostle.start talking (not quoting) scriptures with them.that's one key to destroy these judaizers among christianity.they were problem to the gospel given to paul n they still problem till date.do u decode my message?

I do understand you perfectly, I try to end arguments with the written word cos when you call me a liar like jesusislord does, you are actually calling the word a lie. Once you do that I believe that is the end of the discussion.

Bidam understands the scriptures to an extent so those quotes keep him at arms length but jesusislord has his own interpretations to every clear verse, I believe that is why I still have issues with him.

flourishG: that is one of the statement looks like d ones judaizers make.do u know the law is part of the old agreement n covenant?and when the old chnages to new,the law also changes.do u know that?

To call me a judaizer is wrong because Judaism was dominated by a group called the Pharisees, whose affairs and leadership were both supported by, and limited by, the Roman government.Even at that you are indirectly accusing Paul who still identified himself as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6, 26:5). As a good Pharisee, Paul upheld and kept the Torah all of his life -- you see this throughout the book of Acts and in his letters.

Like i told you in the other thread when you read the "New Testament" in its proper Hebrew context, you find that Paul read, understood, taught, and wrote about the Scriptures and the Messiah from a Pharisaic Hebrew mindset. Paul was personally taught by Gamaliel, who was himself a Pharisee and the head of the Sanhedrin. There is a real possibility that Paul was being prepared to take over the Sanhedrin's leadership. This would have made Paul the equivalent of "Chief Justice of the Supreme Court" of Israel.

Paul called himself a "Hebrew of Hebrews," a term that means he was not a Hellenistic Jew (Jews that had largely abandoned much of the Torah in order to be "more accepted" in the Greek/Roman culture they lived in). If you flourishg read the scriptures thoroughly you will see that Scripture shows that none of this changed when Paul became a believer.The following is a collection of scriptures showing that Paul never taught that we need not obey the Law.

Acts 24:14 (NKJV) "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.


Acts 25:8 (NKJV) while he answered for himself, "Neither against the Law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all."

Paul says that the doers of the Law will be justified and those who break it will be judged.

Roma 2:12 (NKJV) For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 (for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of Yahweh, but the doers of the Law will be justified;

Here Paul twice states that we learn what sin is from the Law. This backs up the statement in 1John 3:4 that Sin is transgression of the Law.

Roma 3:20 (NKJV) Therefore by the deeds of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the Law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Roma 7:7 (NKJV) What shall we say then? [Is] the Law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the Law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the Law had said, "You shall not covet."

Here is a key scripture that is very interesting for you to take note of proving that Paul believed that thru faith we do not make the Law void, but rather we establish the Law (To cause or make to stand).

Roma 3:31 (NKJV) Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Here is another key scripture like the one above proving that Paul did not believe that once we are under grace, that we can continue to sin (break the Law):

Roma 6:15 (NKJV) What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin [leading] to death, or of obedience [leading] to righteousness?

Here Paul is equating "the Law" with "the commandment" and stating his opinion of them:

Roma 7:12 (NKJV) Therefore the Law [is] holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.


Here is an unpopular statement of Paul's. Many like to believe that the Law is of the flesh.

Roma 7:14 (NKJV) For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.


I can sight so many examples from scriptures where the Law was never abolished but time will fail me.It might do you some good to look at the whole scriptures in one large contextual meaning,instead of taking one verse and misinterpreting and misrepresenting it which is what you guys are doing.

Bidam, these peopel are beyond help.
Paul and Peter did not seek to start a new religion. The "Judaizers" he speaks of are those that tried to convince the new converts to adopt the traditions of the elders as well as obey full law in order to get saved.
Paul taught we are saved by grace. But these guys have turned that into a whole new religion - lawlessness.
I asked shdemidemi is a christian lived in a state of sin e.g. in adultery, or in a h omosexual relationship, will he go to heaven. The guy could not answer because he knew it even sounded ridiculous.
He just told me I will not understand or something like that. False teachers. chei

Bidam, I want to believe you do some sort of sporting activity, imagine you went to play football on a sunny day. You got back all sweaty and grimy, and you look in the mirror, and all the mirror can do is show you what's wrong, and what needs cleaning up, but the mirror is never going to reach out and clean you, it can't, it's helpless. And that was the Law. It was just the mirror that showed man his utter sinfulness, and helplessness, but the indwelling Holy Spirit is something totally different.

Romans 8:3

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

JesusisLord85: Bidam, these peopel are beyond help.
Paul and Peter did not seek to start a new religion. The "Judaizers" he speaks of are those that tried to convince the new converts to adopt the traditions of the elders as well as obey full law in order to get saved.
Paul taught we are saved by grace. But these guys have turned that into a whole new religion - lawlessness.
I asked shdemidemi is a christian lived in a state of sin e.g. in adultery, or in a h omosexual relationship, will he go to heaven. The guy could not answer because he knew it even sounded ridiculous.
He just told me I will not understand or something like that. False teachers. chei

People are never beyond help bro.. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to change MEN not you.What i really don't like about this lawlessness approach is that this gospel have sent many to hell unknowingly by people who advocate it.It makes someone Christianity so shallow without seeking a deeper intimacy with God.This gospel of once saved always saved is really destructive.

shdemidemi: Bidam, I want to believe you do some sort of sporting activity, imagine you went to play football on a sunny day. You got back all sweaty and grimy, and you look in the mirror, and all the mirror can do is show you what's wrong, and what needs cleaning up, but the mirror is never going to reach out and clean you, it can't, it's helpless. And that was the Law. It was just the mirror that showed man his utter sinfulness, and helplessness, but the indwelling Holy Spirit is something totally different.

Romans 8:3

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

God never condemned the Law.He just showed the inability of the Law to save man. Even from the beginning God instituted Laws to Adam which he transgressed.The law can never save man.Christ can.

Bidam: People are never beyond help bro.. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to change MEN not you.What i really don't like about this lawlessness approach is that this gospsel have sent many to hell unknowingly by people who advocate it.It makes someone Christianity so shallow without seeking a deeper intimacy with God.This gospel of once saved always saved is really destructive.

I used to listen to charles Stanley and I believed that teaching. It is the reason why you can walk into many churches and see that it is nothing more than a socal club. I was so comfortable in my sin back then.
Then I picked up my bible and started reading in January this year, and the spirit ministered. Praise God for the truth. I am not in bondage like they suggest.If anything, I feel liberated

Bidam: God never condemned the Law.He just showed the inability of the Law to save man. Even from the beginning God instituted Laws to Adam which he transgressed.The law can never save man.Christ can.

You have to be able to differentiate the mosaic laws from other laws.

We have natural laws and principles, you need to separate all that from the law of Moses or the law God gave Adam and Eve

Sometimes, the word `law' will simply be used as a fact of everyday living. In other words, we speak of the law of gravity. It's just a fact of our living everyday that what is up is going to fall down. No man can change the law of gravity. It's absolute. We speak of the law of buoyancy. The law of buoyancy is that if you can put something in the water that weighs less than the amount of water it pushes aside, it's going to float. It's a law. It's a fact of life

shdemidemi:

You have to be able to differentiate the mosaic laws from other laws.

We have natural laws and principles, you need to separate all that from the law of Moses or the law God gave Adam and Eve

Sometimes, the word `law' will simply be used as a fact of everyday living. In other words, we speak of the law of gravity. It's just a fact of our living everyday that what is up is going to fall down. No man can change the law of gravity. It's absolute. We speak of the law of buoyancy. The law of buoyancy is that if you can put something in the water that weighs less than the amount of water it pushes aside, it's going to float. It's a law. It's a fact of life

Oh ok so now there is a law. So if you absolutely ignore that law as a Christian, and do not repent, what happens?
But I'm glad you are slowly turning over.

Hebrews 8:7

"For if that first covenant (the law of Moses) had been faultless (now stop. When you see the words "if it would have been," then what is implied? That it was faulty, it was not faultless like we like to think), then should no place have been sought for the second." If it had been perfect then there was no need for anything more. But it wasn't. Oh, it was perfect from God's perspective, but not from mankind, because man couldn't keep it. Now, verse 8:


Hebrews 8:8,9

"For finding fault with them, he saith, `Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.'"


So what the Scripture is showing us then is that the Mosaic Law from man's perspective was faulty. And as I've emphasized ever since, the Law had no power to help mankind to keep it. Are you aware of that? The Law had absolutely no power to keep a man from stealing, committing adultery, and what have you. All it could do was condemn him. Well, the Spirit indwells us and thus becomes our law. The Holy Spirit becomes our guideline for Christian living, not a set of rules and regulations, but His influence, His power. Do you see the difference?

JesusisLord85:

Oh ok so now there is a law. So if you absolutely ignore that law as a Christian, and do not repent, what happens?
But I'm glad you are slowly turning over.

Be patient mate, all I did was make you know there is a difference between the law of Moses and principles and law of nature.

There is a law when you come into Christ, that law is the Holy Spirit. The indwelling Holy Spirit is warm, He is loving, and He does embrace us, He does cuddle us. And as He does so, He gives us that desire to live pleasing in God's sight, He takes away that desire to be a rebel, to be obnoxious, wicked, and all that. That's the work of the Holy Spirit

shdemidemi: Hebrews 8:7

"For if that first covenant (the law of Moses) had been faultless (now stop. When you see the words "if it would have been," then what is implied? That it was faulty, it was not faultless like we like to think), then should no place have been sought for the second." If it had been perfect then there was no need for anything more. But it wasn't. Oh, it was perfect from God's perspective, but not from mankind, because man couldn't keep it. Now, verse 8:


Hebrews 8:8,9

"For finding fault with them, he saith, `Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.'"


So what the Scripture is showing us then is that the Mosaic Law from man's perspective was faulty. And as I've emphasized ever since, the Law had no power to help mankind to keep it. Are you aware of that? The Law had absolutely no power to keep a man from stealing, committing adultery, and what have you. All it could do was condemn him. Well, the Spirit indwells us and thus becomes our law. The Holy Spirit becomes our guideline for Christian living, not a set of rules and regulations, but His influence, His power. Do you see the difference?

Ok so now we are guided by our spirit. But what about those that think they are saved and do not really have the holy spirit.
Anyway I will quote from Jeremiah 31:
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

I don't need to insert my thoughts in the scripture for those who have the spirit, for they can discern what is meant.
He will write his law in their hearts. NOT 'I will create a different law and set it in their hearts'.
Notice there is nothign about those outside of the House of Israel and Judah. Why? Because by coming into covenant you are adopted as a seed of Abraham.

So there are two things wrong here. You said the Jews should follow the law. By what you have posted, it suggests you have u-turned on that one. That is great news because you are now aligned with your friend FrosbelG.
This new covenant is for the same people. So where is the talk of a new entity (church) that is created to be seperate from God's elect? Peter was the church. Paul was the church. Pentecost day was the Jews who followed Christ (Christians). What happened since the 1st century church? Well, even wikipedia will help there. The romans hijacked the 'religion'. When you can look back and see what the early church did, and what they observed, then you will be closer to the truth.

Jeremiah 6:
Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways,
and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way,
and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.
But they said, We will not walk therein.
17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying,
Hearken to the sound of the trumpet.
But they said, We will not hearken.
18 Therefore hear, ye nations,
and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people,
even the fruit of their thoughts,
because they have not hearkened unto my words,
nor to my law, but rejected it.

I thought we both agree this mystery of Gentiles getting saved by this gospel of grace was a secret revealed in the new covenant?

JesusisLord85:

I used to listen to charles Stanley and I believed that teaching. It is the reason why you can walk into many churches and see that it is nothing more than a socal club. I was so comfortable in my sin back then.
Then I picked up my bible and started reading in January this year, and the spirit ministered. Praise God for the truth. I am not in bondage like they suggest.If anything, I feel liberated

so it is this year january u started studying?and u know too well to conclude you can then teach others.u see d reason i said u should still be in a bible study class?i never even knew u just started studying this year january when i told you that.

JesusisLord85:

Oh ok so now there is a law. So if you absolutely ignore that law as a Christian, and do not repent, what happens?
But I'm glad you are slowly turning over.

why do u always take grace teachers as lawless teachers?there's a law in christ,the LAW OF SPRIRIT OF LIFE is it and it is not mosaic law.why is this thing so hard for u pple to understand?was the law of moses given n written to the christians or to jewish nation?do you keep the whole moses law?