You're spot-on about the maintenance issue needing to be resolved first. However, newer aircraft designs are much less maintenance intensive than older models. Grippen for example, requires much less ground crew and hours. The Embraer also have 2 engines compared to 4 even though they're jets. Not to sure if that will offset the slightly higher maintenance cost of jet engines.

Contrary to popular belief, jet engines do fine on unpaved rough airfields. It has more to do with engine placement and landing gear. After all, a turboprop is also a type of jet engine and can get damaged when ingesting debris.
Embraer stated that it can land on the the maximum (worst) semi-prepared runway defined by MIL-A-008866B and, for soft field operations, perform 10 passes at a CBR 4 airfield (loose fine sand or soft clay). C-17's also do it routinely.

Another advantage of the KC-390 is that it comes with air refueling built in, whereas a c-130 is a specialized model. Air refueling would be a game changer for how we operate in Africa. Imagine if we could have had Grippens in the air over Bengui in a few hours. The KC-390 is actually quite a bit cheaper than the new C130 as well. I we were clever about it, we could get them to co-develop the Marlin air-air missile with us like we did with the Darter as part of the deal to buy some KC-390's. Marlin would probably not happen without co-funding.

That Antonov is something else though.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZbF2OrNkhE

patches689:


Surely the KC-390 engines would be no-bueno for unpaved strips? Also, regardless of what we get the problem is not the aircraft but the funds for maintenance. By my understanding we have ~9 C-130's but only around 5 are operational. Surely replacing them is pointless if they will just end up with another maintenance backlog?

i reckon best bet would be something smaller to replace the CASA's over the short term followed by a C-130 replacement over the long term, betting on an economic recovery.

I understand that if the commitment were made the C-130's could still have an extended life-span.

I reckon something like the An-132D would be the best bet over the short term, something to shuttle troops to and fro, and at the same time give the SF the jumps they need.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE7442BTE54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOUIH4MoIW8

61mech:
Added to that, the funding from the UN for peacekeeping missions doesn't make it back into the SAAF budget. (I think they changed this recently)
Astonishingly shortsighted practice from the Gov.
I don't understand why they don't just contract SAFAIR to do the supply missions. They have long bodied Hercs that fly UN humanitarian missions anyway and they have new C130's being delivered this year.
At some point the Gov. is going to have to pull the trigger on replacing the C130's.
The KC-390 would be my choice. It would also bring back the air-air refereeing capability to the SAAF. Our Grips need longer legs.
Plenty of ways we can do a deal with the Brazilians.
Talking about pie in the sky, here's my vote for Oryx replacement. Code name "Groot Koos"

patches689:


Surely the KC-390 engines would be no-bueno for unpaved strips? Also, regardless of what we get the problem is not the aircraft but the funds for maintenance. By my understanding we have ~9 C-130's but only around 5 are operational. Surely replacing them is pointless if they will just end up with another maintenance backlog?

i reckon best bet would be something smaller to replace the CASA's over the short term followed by a C-130 replacement over the long term, betting on an economic recovery.

I understand that if the commitment were made the C-130's could still have an extended life-span.

I reckon something like the An-132D would be the best bet over the short term, something to shuttle troops to and fro, and at the same time give the SF the jumps they need.

1) DoD has only extracted a commitment from Treasury to look at the UN re-imbursement going back directly to the SANDF (rumour is they'll do it and the cut in real inflationary terms will be equal to this; so no change);

2) Kevin Wakefield at Armscor is trying to get SAFAIR and others to comply with UN tender regs, as Ethiopian Airlines has done spectacularly;

3) Despite the Brazilians painting one of the KC-390 in our colours, no way are we going for it - they tried to tie A-Darter funding to Denel participating in the technical phase, but that ship sailed when they wouldn't budge on the engine for our requirements;

4) There's a standing offer from the Yanks on the C-130J Super Herc (which we should accept if govt limits its ambition to a regional role);

5) If govt decides we play a continental role, the only heavy-lifters we can afford are only propfans from Ukraine and Russia (I myself am partial to Denel's industrial participation in the westernised AN-7X programme), with the following orbat:
a) Heavy Lift/air to air refuelling/transport/EW&C2;
b) Medium Lift/ Maritime/ Paratrooping/transport/E&C INT;
c) Light Lift / paratrooping/C2

6) I'm gonna get slaughtered for this: I can't see affording an Oryx replacement but an extensively modified and expensively improved Eastern bird, if new;
a) We could resuscitate our heavy chopper capability with 2nd hand EDA Chinooks;
b) Cheaply replace Oryx with EDA Black Hawks.

All in all, choppy seas ahead.

What an intelligent president.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmR2n6ryQvg

Off topic

God bless that man, the fact that he said this publicly to the other guy's face, showed balls of steel lol, African leaders need to stop prostrating all over the Western world lol. Now you've said it, turn those words into action.
And before asking those in foreign lands to come home, government also needs to do it's part. Nice speech. Hopefully other leaders see this and learn something from it, Oyinbos aren't gods, they just care more about one another than we do about ourselves. Working together is key.

tdayof:
What an intelligent president.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmR2n6ryQvg

Off topic

tdayof:
What an intelligent president.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmR2n6ryQvg

Off topic

Amazing speech. Hope it turns into action though.

Sizzorkay:
God bless that man, the fact that he said this publicly to the other guy's face, showed balls of steel lol, African leaders need to stop prostrating all over the Western world lol. Now you've said it, turn those words into action.
And before asking those in foreign lands to come home, government also needs to do it's part. Nice speech. Hopefully other leaders see this and learn something from it, Oyinbos aren't gods, they just care more about one another than we do about ourselves. Working together is key.

In Africa, there are various potentials. The avenue to showcase those potential is what we lack and that's due to the government.

Our leaders should put more action. Developed countries spend alot on R& and other technological capabilities. Half of that money may go into a project that fails or technological innovations that won't go into use but will serve only as technological demonstrators.


China closed her border to avoid importing some goods prior it's it's development. Now, China is a technological developed country. If our leaders can invest money in meaningful projects and not some damn projects like buying cars and some rubbish.

We should talk less and take more actions.

Syria just shot down an Israeli Fighter jet.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/10/israeli-fighter-jet-shot-down-by-syrian-fire-says-military

Xbee007:
Syria just shot down an Israeli Fighter jet.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/10/israeli-fighter-jet-shot-down-by-syrian-fire-says-military

Israel has a record of launching a repraisal attack. Syria would be getting ready for that.

just 1 f-16...
I think they'll start shooting down more and more.

Good to see there's some movement on some of the problems we discussed.

Truth be told, Embrear would never change engine options for the small nr. of aircraft the SAAF would order. Doesn't make any financial sense.
I'm a huge fan of the AN-70, but Im afraid that bird will die in the nest. There's just no way I see it ever going into production without the Russians ordering. The Ukrainians are just not able to build financing or arms deal offsets into any offer. Unfortunately that's what's slowly killing SA's own arms industry. We are unable to put together big arms deal because of this even though our products and engineering is on par with anything coming out of Europe.

The AN-70 might sell, but not nearly enough to make it financially viable. Airbus says it has to get to 300 units with the A-400 to turn that bus around (no pun intended). Anyone buying the Antonov aircraft will be screwed when it eventually goes out of limited production along with its spare parts. Rooivalk is a good case study in all the problems with poor countries trying to compete with the big boys that have the backing of governments with deep pockets. Even when the product is superior.

They Brazilians have the same problem in that regard. That's why I think we should be working together with them to bring our products to market. A-Darter is good example of this. That missile would have never made it to production without Brazil participating. This type of cooperation was actually what built most of our defense industry when SA and Israel worked together.

frumentius:




1) DoD has only extracted a commitment from Treasury to look at the UN re-imbursement going back directly to the SANDF (rumour is they'll do it and the cut in real inflationary terms will be equal to this; so no change);

2) Kevin Wakefield at Armscor is trying to get SAFAIR and others to comply with UN tender regs, as Ethiopian Airlines has done spectacularly;

3) Despite the Brazilians painting one of the KC-390 in our colours, no way are we going for it - they tried to tie A-Darter funding to Denel participating in the technical phase, but that ship sailed when they wouldn't budge on the engine for our requirements;

4) There's a standing offer from the Yanks on the C-130J Super Herc (which we should accept if govt limits its ambition to a regional role);

5) If govt decides we play a continental role, the only heavy-lifters we can afford are only propfans from Ukraine and Russia (I myself am partial to Denel's industrial participation in the westernised AN-7X programme), with the following orbat:
a) Heavy Lift/air to air refuelling/transport/EW&C2;
b) Medium Lift/ Maritime/ Paratrooping/transport/E&C INT;
c) Light Lift / paratrooping/C2

6) I'm gonna get slaughtered for this: I can't see affording an Oryx replacement but an extensively modified and expensively improved Eastern bird, if new;
a) We could resuscitate our heavy chopper capability with 2nd hand EDA Chinooks;
b) Cheaply replace Oryx with EDA Black Hawks.

All in all, choppy seas ahead.

61mech:
Good to see there's some movement on some of the problems we discussed.

Truth be told, Embrear would never change engine options for the small nr. of aircraft the SAAF would order. Doesn't make any financial sense.
I'm a huge fan of the AN-70, but Im afraid that bird will die in the nest. There's just no way I see it ever going into production without the Russians ordering. The Ukrainians are just not able to build financing or arms deal offsets into any offer. Unfortunately that's what's slowly killing SA's own arms industry. We are unable to put together big arms deal because of this even though our products and engineering is on par with anything coming out of Europe.

The AN-70 might sell, but not nearly enough to make it financially viable. Airbus says it has to get to 300 units with the A-400 to turn that bus around (no pun intended). Anyone buying the Antonov aircraft will be screwed when it eventually goes out of limited production along with its spare parts. Rooivalk is a good case study in all the problems with poor countries trying to compete with the big boys that have the backing of governments with deep pockets. Even when the product is superior.

They Brazilians have the same problem in that regard. That's why I think we should be working together with them to bring our products to market. A-Darter is good example of this. That missile would have never made it to production without Brazil participating. This type of cooperation was actually what built most of our defense industry when SA and Israel worked together.

This.

Frankly, we should just bite the bullet and get C-130's - I beleive the Americans are offering them at the same price they sell them to the USAF, while we allready maintain the capacity to operate and maintain them. If the economy turns around in the next decade, we could still pick up a couple (3-5) A400's for limited strategic lift, that would be enough to drop an entire Para battalion in one flight and resupply it with 185, 000 tonnes of gear in another. For reference, the entire battle of Bangui only lead to the consumption of 10 tonnes of ammunition.

Frankly, the SANDF needs to focus on two things: Sepula/Vistula and the Oryx issue. Rooivalk 2.0 should be put to bed, it hurts to say it but it is what it is. There is no shortage of attack helos in the world and there are many things we could better do; work on Hind's, jump in with the Indians on their attack helo etc etc etc

In terms of what gets used the most priority should be on protected mobility, mobility and the helo question. Regardless of what the future conflict looks like, those three things are essential for any SANDF success. I am also starting to sour on the Navy getting the OPV's, Helmoeds argument regarding the issue is, excuse the pun, watertight.

Nigerian Air Force Gulma UAV

Nigerian Army Ara MRAP

Impressive beast

Nigerian army PF2 LAV

Nigerian Air Force Regiment training

Nigerian Navy SBS insertion techniques

61mech:
Added to that, the funding from the UN for peacekeeping missions doesn't make it back into the SAAF budget. (I think they changed this recently)
Astonishingly shortsighted practice from the Gov.
I don't understand why they don't just contract SAFAIR to do the supply missions. They have long bodied Hercs that fly UN humanitarian missions anyway and they have new C130's being delivered this year.
At some point the Gov. is going to have to pull the trigger on replacing the C130's.
The KC-390 would be my choice. It would also bring back the air-air refereeing capability to the SAAF. Our Grips need longer legs.
Plenty of ways we can do a deal with the Brazilians.
Talking about pie in the sky, here's my vote for Oryx replacement. Code name "Groot Koos"

So finally,the Oryx is on the way out! That design lasted over 5 decades-the first prototype flew in 65. I really like your redesign,the bigger engines and longer tail;in life, though everything is eventually replaced. This Groot Koos borrows the Hind concept,a mixed gunship and battle taxi,though she's def large to be duelling with raggedy arse 14.5 mm armed militias. How far is the GK? I hope its more than just a workable design for now.

patches689:


This.

Frankly, we should just bite the bullet and get C-130's - I beleive the Americans are offering them at the same price they sell them to the USAF, while we allready maintain the capacity to operate and maintain them. If the economy turns around in the next decade, we could still pick up a couple (3-5) A400's for limited strategic lift, that would be enough to drop an entire Para battalion in one flight and resupply it with 185, 000 tonnes of gear in another. For reference, the entire battle of Bangui only lead to the consumption of 10 tonnes of ammunition.

Frankly, the SANDF needs to focus on two things: Sepula/Vistula and the Oryx issue. Rooivalk 2.0 should be put to bed, it hurts to say it but it is what it is. There is no shortage of attack helos in the world and there are many things we could better do; work on Hind's, jump in with the Indians on their attack helo etc etc etc

In terms of what gets used the most priority should be on protected mobility, mobility and the helo question. Regardless of what the future conflict looks like, those three things are essential for any SANDF success. I am also starting to sour on the Navy getting the OPV's, Helmoeds argument regarding the issue is, excuse the pun, watertight.

I feel your pain! I was also an admirer but global realities make the sale of a heavy gunship very very difficult! I know how the Brit army sale was sabotaged by the US-that's just how they roll at this level. If you remember I actually advocated for a Rooivalk lite,a simpler more basic thus cheaper version.

kikuyu1:


I feel your pain! I was also an admirer but global realities make the sale of a heavy gunship very very difficult! I know how the Brit army sale was sabotaged by the US-that's just how they roll at this level. If you remember I actually advocated for a Rooivalk lite,a simpler more basic thus cheaper version.

Problem with a light is then that you are competeing either with the Tiger (and French tricks) or the converted light-helicopters which will always be even cheaper.

For a non-state actor, the Iraqi Peshmerga are really good at getting SA stuff that falls off the back of a truck .

GH

GHA

please generals in the house i have been silently following this thread but one thing baffles me who trains this sbs commandos because they you look like the best trained and equipped of all fighting forces

GSU RECCE
AP RDU

RDU
RBPU

They were trained by the British special forces

medic555:
please generals in the house i have been silently following this thread but one thing baffles me who trains this sbs commandos because they you look like the best trained and equipped of all fighting forces

frumentius:
For a non-state actor, the Iraqi Peshmerga are really good at getting SA stuff that falls off the back of a truck .

That feel when the Peshmerga have better personal equipment than the SANDF.

Couple of things - is the SANDF looking into doing something about a modern plate carrier? Pat 83 and our BPVs are great and all, but it would be nice to see something that can do both. In sure you are aware of how much I like the new British system being phased in - I love the idea of a single scalable system.

Helmets too, it seems we are still using the old M87 helmet - a big, clunky and ageing design which, most worryingly, seems to poorly fit the SANDFs new demographics (too big). The fact that it needs a separate cover to provide its cammoflauge is another problem - just another thing to worry about and lose.

Also, surprised countries deployed in Somalia haven't gotten the Neopaw, it would be an exellent tool for stopping VBIEDs. You wouldn't need that many - it wouldn't have to be a standardized section weapon - just enough to equip various access points around bases and FOBs, we are talking a couple hundred at most.

Slightly off-topic,but not by much. Saffas,what's the exact situation with Zuma? He's being asked to leave by the ANC but is staying put-WTF!? What's Ramaphosa's attitude to defence and security? Is he aware of the need to increase spending especially given SA's wider continental role? Does he acknowledge the existence of outside forces wishing to balkanise SA via local and/or regional proxies and thus the need for an effective military?
Patches869,mikecza,saengine,frumentius what can you tell us?

I've just seen the Israeli Spear in action and I'm having a rethink! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OrlIIiZJJk

Fyi,the typical recoil force of a 120 mm mortar is up to `15 tonnes-how will the vehicle suspension absorb that force indefinitely? How many rounds will it fire before the suspension and frame fall apart? Go to 0.40. The man'f says

:Spear uses an innovative recoil system that reduces the recoil and allows the mortar to be fired from lighter (under six ton) vehicles. The ”soft recoil” system reduces the force of the recoil over 90 percent. The rate of fire is also reduced a bit (from 20 to 16 rounds a minute) but with the use of GPS guided shells this is less of a factor.

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/20140529.aspx

I'd be happier if it had supporting hydraulic arms to lift and stabilise the vehicle like other mobile arty systems.

I think a Denel got it just right with the RG-31 MMS / AGRAB. Its heavier, has spades and has a armored cab in case the crew get caught by counter battery fire.
The French Caesar is probably the worst when it comes to recoil damage. Take a look at some of the Youtube vids. Especially the ones where they fire full charge. That chassis would not hold up in full on combat. It's fine when you just run it in exercises where you don't really push it hard, but in combat you might have to fire so much at max range you can shoot the barrel out. Take the recent USMC artillery missions in Syria for instance. Compare the Caesar to the T-5-52's spade system. One of them were designed by engineers who knows what sustained fire missions in conventional combat look like.

Look at around the 50s mark


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frPm70dTrhk

kikuyu1:
I've just seen the Israeli Spear in action and I'm having a rethink! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OrlIIiZJJk

Fyi,the typical recoil force of a 120 mm mortar is up to `15 tonnes-how will the vehicle suspension absorb that force indefinitely? How many rounds will it fire before the suspension and frame fall apart? Go to 0.40. The man'f says
https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/20140529.aspx

I'd be happier if it had supporting hydraulic arms to lift and stabilise the vehicle like other mobile arty systems.

Exactly Mike. Ma Deuce has served well but it's time to retire.

MikeCZA:
Inkuzi(Bull) strike weapon. Ma da...... what?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WB7CmLGMfU

Looks like they are using 12.7mm in the vid?
Could they have a caliber conversion in mind for cheaper training ?
Or maybe you can field convert it to 12.7mm for longer range. Vid says you can do it with a barrel swap, but I'm not sure if the bolt-face and extractor would work on both calibers.

Frumentum:
Exactly Mike. Ma Deuce has served well but it's time to retire.