frumentius:
Democracy continues its disturbing retreat

https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2018/01/daily-chart-21?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/

I would not put a great deal of stock in these map indexes which measure levels of democracy, freedom, corruption, etc.

I once worked for an organisation in a particular country - which shall go unnamed - that sent a letter to the US State Department protesting their decision to upgrade Country X's human rights/political freedom ranking.

To put things in perspective, countries which received a lower ranking were not eligible for certain types of aid. Therefore, by upgrading the index ranking and classifying Country X as "more free", it was now eligible to enter into more trade agreements with the US and qualify for more types of aid (including military aid).

The whole affair was bollocks. Nothing had changed in the political situation in Country X and in fact, a leading member of the opposition had just been blatantly murdered by the security forces. But Country X was about to enter into the US-spearheaded Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA) and if its ranking had remained low that would've tossed a wrench into the works. The US was trying to counter Chinese influence in the Pacific and wanted Country X brought into its trade sphere; hence the upgraded ranking.

In essence, indexes are manipulated all the time for political reasons. And even if they weren't, some academic bubble-dwelling pencil pusher looking at charts in London or Geneva (or in this case, Stanford) ought not to stick arbitrary labels on a country like Nigeria - or indeed, RSA and Namibia - that he has never set foot in in his life.

Hrmnn:


I would not put a great deal of stock in these map indexes which measure levels of democracy, freedom, corruption, etc.

I once worked for an organisation in a particular country - which shall go unnamed - that sent a letter to the US State Department protesting their decision to upgrade Country X's human rights/political freedom ranking.

To put things in perspective, countries which received a lower ranking were not eligible for certain types of aid. Therefore, by upgrading the index ranking and classifying Country X as "more free", it was now eligible to enter into more trade agreements with the US and qualify for more types of aid (including military aid).

The whole affair was bollocks. Nothing had changed in the political situation in Country X and in fact, a leading member of the opposition had just been blatantly murdered by the security forces. But Country X was about to enter into the US-spearheaded Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA) and if its ranking had remained low that would've tossed a wrench into the works. The US was trying to counter Chinese influence in the Pacific and wanted Country X brought into its trade sphere; hence the upgraded ranking.

In essence, indexes are manipulated all the time for political reasons. And even if they weren't, some academic bubble-dwelling pencil pusher looking at charts in London or Geneva (or in this case, Stanford) ought not to stick arbitrary labels on a country like Nigeria - or indeed, RSA and Namibia - that he has never set foot in in his life.

lionel4power:


I believe 'we' Nigerians are now getting wiser. The self esteemed rhetoric has died down a bit.






Realities are now dawning.




.


.
I believe it's due to the self-esteemed self-acclaimed leader being on self-imposed exile.

You be sellout bro.
U can give him a bl*wj*b while you are at it.

frumentius:


Exactly what I said on bidexiii's thread. And where did they buy them? Armed exactly like Nigeria's - which some people keep saying it's not corrupt inflated prices - with integration by Israel's Elbit Systems.

The only 2 countries who bought their Tucanos from the Florida plant were Afghanistan and Lebanon. Both paid close to what Nigeria will pay if the deal goes ahead. The US govt paid for Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia paid for Lebanon.
If not for corrupt backhanders, why is Nigeria not going directly to Brazil?

How many times do we have to remind you that Nigeria attempted to get the plane from Brazil but was blocked by USA? How many times before it sinks in?
http://www.airforce.mil.ng/post-brazil_to_sell_3_super_tucano_aircraft_to_nigeria

You're just busy repeating the ill informed stereotypical comments you guys make of Nigeria. Fyi, not everyone in Nigeria is corrupt, there are good people in Nigeria too. It may be difficult for you to accept but it is the truth.

Plus, it is not as if Nigeria has already paid the $600million for the deal so why are you guys taking paracetamol for another man's headache?

Flying machines

SAAF

Xbee007, "You're just busy repeating the ill informed stereotypical comments you guys make of Nigeria. Fyi, not everyone in Nigeria is corrupt, there are good people in Nigeria too. It may be difficult for you to accept but it is the truth".

Too generous. The position should be on if there are any good people in South Africa since Mandela's death.


Yup, self-esteem is alive and kicking

Xbee007:

You be sellout bro.
U can give him a bl*wj*b while you are at it.

1) First of all when you finally grow up you'll understand that everybody has his/her own opinion. If it offends you then grow a thicker skin.

2) This is a PUBLIC FORUM. when you add 'PUBLIC' and 'FORUM' together... What enters your mind? One day you'll get it...

3) ONLINE there is no faction, group, team, sect, coalition or whatever notion you have in your head. Nobody knows each other here. Nobody cares about you here.

4) why do i get the feeling that you are just looking for a quarrel or thread fight? do you crave attention?

5) Your opinion do not count online. it did not count yesterday, it does not count today, it probably won't count tomorrow.

6) Try to communicate constructively, not like a child. stop making Nigeria look bad.

7) finally, you are the only person still agitating... what do you intend to achieve? what's you aim? are you going to get paid?

8-) Nobody has a monopoly of insult, we just don't see the need to waste valuable time.

Please don't insult me again.

lionel4power:


1) First of all when you finally grow up you'll understand that everybody has his/her own opinion. If it offends you then grow a thicker skin.

2) This is a PUBLIC FORUM. when you add 'PUBLIC' and 'FORUM' together... What enters your mind? One day you'll get it...

3) ONLINE there is no faction, group, team, sect, coalition or whatever notion you have in your head. Nobody knows each other here. Nobody cares about you here.

4) why do i get the feeling that you are just looking for a quarrel or thread fight? do you crave attention?

5) Your opinion do not count online. it did not count yesterday, it does not count today, it probably won't count tomorrow.

6) Try to communicate constructively, not like a child. stop making Nigeria look bad.

7) finally, you are the only person still agitating... what do you intend to achieve? what's you aim? are you going to get paid?

8-) Nobody has a monopoly of insult, we just don't see the need to waste valuable time.

Please don't insult me again.

I don't know what you gain by joining them in always portraying Nigeria in a bad light. Admittedly, we have our unique challenges but they also have theirs. Tell me a country that isn't battling one form of corruption or the other in this world today. Just because Nigerians talk about it a lot shouldn't be seen as an endorsement of corruption.

Since the day one of the Tucano deal with USA, they have been blaming Nigerians for being corrupt. How about they blame the real culprit, USA for quoting such a high price? And it is not even as if Nigeria has agreed to pay the exorbitant price. If the term "negotiation" is alien to SAs I am sure as a Nigerian you a pretty familiar with it. So why the fuss? Why the usual blame game on Nigeria? Why can't we wait till the day Nigeria pays the money before the usual criticism? Why, why, why?

Nemesis4u give us price and tactical comparison of Indian and Turk attack planes vis a vis the Tuc. Imo,Naij,has options which may require patience but are still valid nevertheless. Dealing with the US from a position of need can be like biting into the worlds biggest unending ishyt sandwich!

Xbee007:


I don't know what you gain by joining them in always portraying Nigeria in a bad light. Admittedly, we have our unique challenges but they also have theirs. Tell me a country that isn't battling one form of corruption or the other in this world today. Just because Nigerians talk about it a lot shouldn't be seen as an endorsement of corruption.

Since the day one of the Tucano deal with USA, they have been blaming Nigerians for being corrupt. How about they blame the real culprit, USA for quoting such a high price? And it is not even as if Nigeria has agreed to pay the exorbitant price. If the term "negotiation" is alien to SAs I am sure as a Nigerian you a pretty familiar with it. So why the fuss? Why the usual blame game on Nigeria? Why can't we wait till the day Nigeria pays the money before the usual criticism? Why, why, why?

Now you are talking like an adult without insults isn't it better?


First when we heard the deal, I and a few other Nigerians criticized it vehemently. We questioned the rationale behind the exorbitant price. (I can go back the THREAD and screen shot it for you if you want.)

Meanwhile other Nigerians insulted me and called me all sorts of Names... Unpatriotic, low self esteem, double agent e.t.c. They defended the deal they said it was the best deal in the world. Someone even wrote an epistle of how the Tucano would come with PGMs that is unheard off anywhere in Africa and why it would be better than the mokopa. I was forced to keep quiet for 'superior argument' to prevail.....

It's all there go and check and confirm.

The problem is we Nigerians don't even know what we want, today we say this tomorrow another thing.. Contradictory statements all the time. I can name a few people who supported the deal at that time but are now saying something else now.

If the FG announce that they are considering a platform we will first come here and praise that platform to sky heaven, then before you know it someone would start comparing it with the South Africans, it always end in comparison. At the end we won't get it. Then next would be the blame game.

Don't follow others along that path bros, try to reason objectively.

T

lionel4power:


1) .[/b]

You make senseless comments. Always too eager to suck South-African d1ck.

Let's talk instead of the corruption riddled 1999 arms contract which brought about the Gripenw to South-Africa.

Worthless goat!

kikuyu1:
Nemesis4u give us price and tactical comparison of Indian and Turk attack planes vis a vis the Tuc. Imo,Naij,has options which may require patience but are still valid nevertheless. Dealing with the US from a position of need can be like biting into the worlds biggest unending ishyt sandwich!

Ur asking about htt 40 I presume , it's still in development phase and they r looking to come up with a armed version but that will take time, about the Turkish one I have no idea.

If CAS is a requirement then one can go for SU25 .

Many years back there was a proposal to upgrade the jaguars by HAL but it was rejected becz it was deemed expensive.
If those jags were flying around now then there would have been no requirement for CAS aircrafts

lionel4power:



Now you are talking like an adult without insults isn't it better?


First when we heard the deal, I and a few other Nigerians criticized it vehemently. We questioned the rationale behind the exorbitant price. (I can go back the THREAD and screen shot it for you if you want.)

Meanwhile other Nigerians insulted me and called me all sorts of Names... Unpatriotic, low self esteem, double agent e.t.c. They defended the deal they said it was the best deal in the world. Someone even wrote an epistle of how the Tucano would come with PGMs that is unheard off anywhere in Africa and why it would be better than the mokopa. I was forced to keep quiet for 'superior argument' to prevail.....

It's all there go and check and confirm.

The problem is we Nigerians don't even know what we want, today we say this tomorrow another thing.. Contradictory statements all the time. I can name a few people who supported the deal at that time but are now saying something else now.

If the FG announce that they are considering a platform we will first come here and praise that platform to sky heaven, then before you know it someone would start comparing it with the South Africans, it always end in comparison. At the end we won't get it. Then next would be the blame game.

Don't follow others along that path bros, try to reason objectively.

Was the detail of the deal not provided at the time? Did you not see it's weapons package, training and cost of aircraft?

"Why is there a sudden change in opinion by most Nigerians?".............. It is primarily because of the pre-conditions set by the US government.

Can you name the Nigerians who have backed out for any other reason apart from the political conditions attached to it?

My friend, run along to your poorly, fantasy filled blog.

My opinion:

NAF should get at least a squadron of multirole fighter jets.

We've got enough attack helicopters already + 10 more to be delivered. Then we can look at the SU25 or probably that L-15 OR the JL-9.

Lionel4power, Bidexii jakesporeshenko how much are we getting a single jf17?

lionel4power:



Now you are talking like an adult without insults isn't it better?


First when we heard the deal, I and a few other Nigerians criticized it vehemently. We questioned the rationale behind the exorbitant price. (I can go back the THREAD and screen shot it for you if you want.)

Meanwhile other Nigerians insulted me and called me all sorts of Names... Unpatriotic, low self esteem, double agent e.t.c. They defended the deal they said it was the best deal in the world. Someone even wrote an epistle of how the Tucano would come with PGMs that is unheard off anywhere in Africa and why it would be better than the mokopa. I was forced to keep quiet for 'superior argument' to prevail.....

It's all there go and check and confirm.

The problem is we Nigerians don't even know what we want, today we say this tomorrow another thing.. Contradictory statements all the time. I can name a few people who supported the deal at that time but are now saying something else now.

If the FG announce that they are considering a platform we will first come here and praise that platform to sky heaven, then before you know it someone would start comparing it with the South Africans, it always end in comparison. At the end we won't get it. Then next would be the blame game.

Don't follow others along that path bros, try to reason objectively.

I can remember the exchanges that happened on this thread right after the deal was announced. Most of us lauded the deal not because we're unaware it was stupidly exorbitant but because we know further negotiations will still take place. Plus the prospect/euphoria of Nigeria finally having an aircraft to stand firmly against her enemies made most of us exhibit ambivalent attitudes towards the deal.

But what I will not take is someone labelling my country with the usual stereotypical balderdash. Nigerian government didn't quote the figures obtainable in USA DOD report.
Nigeria has not erred in anyway by requesting for the aircraft!

kabe1:

Was the detail of the deal not provided at the time? Did you not see it's weapons package, training and cost of aircraft?

"Why is there a sudden change in opinion by most Nigerians?".............. It is primarily because of the pre-conditions set by the US government.

Can you name the Nigerians who have backed out for any other reason apart from the political conditions attached to it?

My friend, run along to your poorly, fantasy filled blog.

The conversation made sense until you added the last sentence. Everyone has right to his or her opinion and you can't just shut him down.



Now about the weapons package : that doesn't justify the price. You should have noticed something fishy when $583m turned $484m later on. Plus the post said the reason for the high price is due to alot of middle men shit that I don't care about. Now, we are waiting for 2 years to get a Tucano when you can start receiving JF17s next year if we put our orders through china.

It's obviously not a good deal. I have always supported that deal before because I know it's better we spend $5b on 5 Tucanos that hearing missing $5b. However, the conditions attached to it is a huge turn off.

Naaa....the boy is just a sissy....He's being antagonistic to Lionel4power....Very uncalled for

tdayof:


The conversation made sense until you added the last sentence. Everyone has right to his or her opinion and you can't just shut him down.



Now about the weapons package : that doesn't justify the price. You should have noticed something fishy when $583m turned $484m later on. Plus the post said the reason for the high price is due to alot of middle men shit that I don't care about. Now, we are waiting for 2 years to get a Tucano when you can start receiving JF17s next year if we put our orders through china.

It's obviously not a good deal. I have always supported that deal before because I know it's better we spend $5b on 5 Tucanos that hearing missing $5b. However, the conditions attached to it is a huge turn off.

tdayof:
My opinion:

NAF should get at least a squadron of multirole fighter jets.

We've got enough attack helicopters already + 10 more to be delivered. Then we can look at the SU25 or probably that L-15 OR the JL-9.

While chilling on a ugwu tree and sipping my fresh kunu, I must say;
We need enough Attack helps(infact assault helos e.g Mi-171sh) to permanently attach to OP Lafiya Dole

Forget the Su25, supernova would happen first before we get them. We must not only retool the NAF for COIN. As much as I hate, the conventional shortcomings of NAF is too glaring hence I itch for the JFs

Odunayaw:
While chilling on a ugwu tree and sipping my fresh kunu, I must say;
We need enough Attack helps(infact assault helos e.g Mi-171sh) to permanently attach to OP Lafiya Dole

Forget the Su25, supernova would happen first before we get them. We must not only retool the NAF for COIN. As much as I hate, the conventional shortcomings of NAF is too glaring hence I itch for the JFs

Yes, if we're not going to get a COIN aircraft, helicopters are okay then a good multirole fighter can do the main bombing from thousands of fts.

Any idea how much we're getting a single JF17?

tdayof:


Yes, if we're not going to get a COIN aircraft, helicopters are okay then a good multirole fighter can do the main bombing from thousands of fts.

Any idea how much we're getting a single JF17?

I really don't know about the price

This Kabe1 has barely 200 combine post on nairaland. but 80% are all insults.

I just checked...

he has insulted almost everybody on this thread. funny enough I haven't seen any picture contribution from him only insults.

he even INSULTED OUR PRESIDENT AND A HIGH RANKING GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL

IS THIS THE TYPE OF 'PATRIOTISM' YOU PEOPLE EXHIBIT??

I DONT WANT A PART OF THAT..

I WOULD NEVER INSULT MY PRESIDENT EVER NO MATTER WHAT CONDITION.

Useless piece of dogpile.

Xbee007:


But what I will not take is someone labelling my country with the usual stereotypical balderdash. Nigerian government didn't quote the figures obtainable in USA DOD report.
Nigeria has not erred in anyway by requesting for the aircraft!

A fellow Nigerian just insulted your PRESIDENT on a public forum... lets see your reaction.. lets see your PATRIOTISM

proof attached below.


Now is the best time...

Odunayaw:
While chilling on a ugwu tree and sipping my fresh kunu, I must say;
We need enough Attack helps(infact assault helos e.g Mi-171sh) to permanently attach to OP Lafiya Dole

Forget the Su25, supernova would happen first before we get them. We must not only retool the NAF for COIN. As much as I hate, the conventional shortcomings of NAF is too glaring hence I itch for the JFs

if it were I...

here's what I'll do.. in this world (2018) no nation have the monopoly of arms anymore.

if the US don't want to sell, I'll go to Turkey for their own, if Turkey refuses I'll go to South Africa for the Mwari.

if SA refuses, I'll buy a damn Cessna Caravan or an acrobatic aircraft.... up armor it and slam a rocket pod on the damn thing.

shikena. bye bye boko boys

We can't just allow stup1d countries use us anyhow.

lionel4power:


A fellow Nigerian just insulted your PRESIDENT on a public forum... lets see your reaction.. lets see your PATRIOTISM

proof attached below.


Now is the best time...

Lol, Kabe1 only logs in on NL after taking some spirits that is why he is always unnecessarily hostile. Learn to ignore his rants.

Xbee007:

Lol, Kabe1 only logs in on NL after taking some spirits that is why he is always unnecessarily hostile. Learn to ignore his rants.

I'll just let THIS one go and act like nothing happened.

After all this is just nairaland.

tdayof:
My opinion:

NAF should get at least a squadron of multirole fighter jets.

We've got enough attack helicopters already + 10 more to be delivered. Then we can look at the SU25 or probably that L-15 OR the JL-9.

Lionel4power, Bidexii jakesporeshenko how much are we getting a single jf17?

I have no idea... neither do I even care Sef. if they like they should buy Dragon, flying carpet, kite or balloon it's none of my concern.


I'll rather watch and appreciate other countries for upgrading and improving.

Hrmnn:


I would not put a great deal of stock in these map indexes which measure levels of democracy, freedom, corruption, etc.

I once worked for an organisation in a particular country - which shall go unnamed - that sent a letter to the US State Department protesting their decision to upgrade Country X's human rights/political freedom ranking.

To put things in perspective, countries which received a lower ranking were not eligible for certain types of aid. Therefore, by upgrading the index ranking and classifying Country X as "more free", it was now eligible to enter into more trade agreements with the US and qualify for more types of aid (including military aid).

The whole affair was bollocks. Nothing had changed in the political situation in Country X and in fact, a leading member of the opposition had just been blatantly murdered by the security forces. But Country X was about to enter into the US-spearheaded Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA) and if its ranking had remained low that would've tossed a wrench into the works. The US was trying to counter Chinese influence in the Pacific and wanted Country X brought into its trade sphere; hence the upgraded ranking.

In essence, indexes are manipulated all the time for political reasons. And even if they weren't, some academic bubble-dwelling pencil pusher looking at charts in London or Geneva (or in this case, Stanford) ought not to stick arbitrary labels on a country like Nigeria - or indeed, RSA and Namibia - that he has never set foot in in his life.

Technically speaking, the USA should get a score of Zero - because it isnt a democracy at all, but rather a Republic. Same applies to the UK, with is also not at all democratic but rather a Constitutional Monarchy. Many such examples.

Further, numerous countries which employ "first past the post" voting systems - which is extremely undemocratic - yet they score highly ie: Australia, UK, Canada.

This chart is subjective, and must be taken as such.

More meaningful info is gained from looking at various Freedom-related data (ie: economic, press and personal). Personally I would rather be free to do as I please, than be subjected to the mob-rule that is democracy (ie: the tyranny of the majority).A sentiment that the member of any minority group would surely echo (if they had any sense), frankly I would much sooner be an American than I would a Canadian. Lord forbid I were ever to become a Briton or Continental European, some of the least free people in the developed world!

Thats enough of that though, shall we get back to the thread topic?

lionel4power:
This Kabe1 has barely 200 combine post on nairaland. but 80% are all insults.

I just checked...

.

You're a hopeless, jobless mofo!

You went back checking all my posts on a Monday morning. I almost feel very sorry for you.

Xbee007:

Lol, Kabe1 only logs in on NL after taking some spirits that is why he is always unnecessarily hostile. Learn to ignore his rants.

2 cups of shekpe for you, you go live longer than your forefathers!

Lionel is a confirmed lackey though, you know, i know, we all know.

This is crazy shit.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Be0XhiZAAeQ/

lionel4power:


if it were I...

here's what I'll do.. in this world (2018) no nation have the monopoly of arms anymore.

if the US don't want to sell, I'll go to Turkey for their own, if Turkey refuses I'll go to South Africa for the Mwari.

if SA refuses, I'll buy a damn Cessna Caravan or an acrobatic aircraft.... up armor it and slam a rocket pod on the damn thing.

shikena. bye bye boko boys

We can't just allow stup1d countries use us anyhow.

While understanding your point, weapons and rockets can't just be "slammed on the damn thing",not if you don't plan to shoot at apparitions