Sizzorkay:
I'm not castigating anything, two errors? You wrote it? lol, there are tons of errors on there, not just two lol.
Hey, I'm not taking it personal, it's just not a good look when people write up stuff for public consumption and they can't do a simple spell check.
yawn. Moving on

And that's before we get to the factual questions.

I'd move the 60mm to the platoon level. Also use a patmor instead of the long range tube. Much more mobile. Problem with having so many mortars in the platoon is the ammo. You can only carry so much and 3 tubes will eat up your stock pretty quick.Although the long range 60mm round is almost as effective as a 81mm HE according to Denel. Cant see why you shouldn't be able to shoot it from a patmor with lower charge.

You'd also find it difficult to find space in your section IFV for a 2 man mortar crew. Thats why they usually ride with the platoon command vehicle. Also, the section leader has his hands full just running the squad and being shouted at over the platoon radio net. Don't think they'll do well with the extra job of directing mortars. 6km range is overkill. The platoon should concentrate on fighting whats in front of them. I like the idea of a dedicated weapons section added to the platoon like what the USMC has. Having them in a dedicated vehicle gives the platoon leader many more options on how to use them for something like over-watch positions and ambushes. I'd have a 60mm mortar, heavy MG (with 338 norma LWMMG machine gun) and may be a ATGM crew in it.

I'd swap out the 60 for the 40mm MGL and have the section 2ic run it. He directs your MG nr1 and 2. The 40mm could be useful for him to mark targets for the gunner, shoot short range illumination at night and lay down short range HE. The ammo is also much more manageable.

As far as the 120mm goes I prefer the Israeli Spear over the auto loaders.
They ad too much complexity to what's supposed to be a simple and reliable weapon. I don't buy the whole "reduced workload" argument. I your crew cant handle 16 rpm of 120mm, they need to go back to the gym, not hire a robot. Grandpa did it in Tobruc so can you. I personally feel these auto loaders are pushed by the manufacturers ,so they can triple the price.

I'd also add some organic direct fire support to the orbat. 76mm and up.
I also don't see a lot of logistics tail in that orbat. Hope they add some supply transport. Seeing things like fuel bunkers, water bowsers and general supply trucks in the orbat can tell you a lot more about how long and at what range that coy can operate. They probably just have it in the Bn. orbat that the coy is part of.

frumentius:


Hopefully these links will let you see it clearly:
http://3.bp..com/-IR3hAOalfPU/TjUkjWYKZNI/AAAAAAAAAck/JzWUk4Sehec/s1600/Compagnia_fucilieri_Fanteria_Media.png

Hope I don't fall foul of the pestilential bot: http://1.bp..com/-vejXl1tClqg/TjUkkspP8HI/AAAAAAAAAco/KBBzGG4ugmY/s1600/Compagnia_supporto_alla_manovra_Fanteria_Media.png


I'm biased here but I prefer this automatic self-loading 120mm, which Denel has supplied to the UAE.

61mech:
I'd move the 60mm to the platoon level. Also use a patmor instead of the long range tube. Much more mobile. Problem with having so many mortars in the platoon is the ammo. You can only carry so much and 3 tubes will eat up your stock pretty quick.Although the long range 60mm round is almost as effective as a 81mm HE according to Denel. Cant see why you shouldn't be able to shoot it from a patmor with lower charge.

You'd also find it difficult to find space in your section IFV for a 2 man mortar crew. Thats why they usually ride with the platoon command vehicle. Also, the section leader has his hands full just running the squad and being shouted at over the platoon radio net. Don't think they'll do well with the extra job of directing mortars. 6km range is overkill. The platoon should concentrate on fighting whats in front of them. I like the idea of a dedicated weapons section added to the platoon like what the USMC has. Having them in a dedicated vehicle gives the platoon leader many more options on how to use them for something like over-watch positions and ambushes. I'd have a 60mm mortar, heavy MG (with 338 norma LWMMG machine gun) and may be a ATGM crew in it.

I'd swap out the 60 for the 40mm MGL and have the section 2ic run it. He directs your MG nr1 and 2. The 40mm could be useful for him to mark targets for the gunner, shoot short range illumination at night and lay down short range HE. The ammo is also much more manageable.

As far as the 120mm goes I prefer the Israeli Spear over the auto loaders.
They ad too much complexity to what's supposed to be a simple and reliable weapon. I don't buy the whole "reduced workload" argument. I your crew cant handle 16 rpm of 120mm, they need to go back to the gym, not hire a robot. Grandpa did it in Tobruc so can you. I personally feel these auto loaders are pushed by the manufacturers ,so they can triple the price.

I'd also add some organic direct fire support to the orbat. 76mm and up.
I also don't see a lot of logistics tail in that orbat. Hope they add some supply transport. Seeing things like fuel bunkers, water bowsers and general supply trucks in the orbat can tell you a lot more about how long and at what range that coy can operate. They probably just have it in the Bn. orbat that the coy is part of.

Thanks for this. I was initially apprehensive lest my opinion be too influenced by SA doctrine. I agree with you on the 60mm/patmor pairing.

As you rightly point out, Denel's long range 60mm now shoots out to the same range as 81mm. Effect-on-range vs fire-on-range?
For example; I'll use Ratel as Badger is a work in progress and classified:
Ratel can carry either
1) 148- 81mm bombs at a weight of 666kg;
2) 391- 60mm bombs; and
3) 41- 120mm mortars, for the same weight.

Assuming a sustained rate of fire of 16 bombs/minute that means 120mm support fire for 2.5 minutes, 81mm for 9.25 minutes and 60mm for 24.4 minutes.
Now, the logs guys simplistically say do away with the 81mm and carry more of the 60mm which has same range and better accuracy.
I disagree. Keep the 60 as a Patmor, use the limited tech funds on the 81mm and motorise the 120mm. Away from our planning desks and screens, the guys down-range need to do more than just keep people under cover . Logs job is simply to remove the worry of supply from the guys on the front [On Friday afternoon, 22 March, everyone at JOps knew fecal matter was flowing in Bangui and the logs guys were hamstrung by the TTPs such that relief only arrived on Tues, at great expense and too late to be of use].

As for the automated mortars: having recently observed the Recces using the Scorpion[auto laying and aiming] system both in manual and auto loading, not much to choose between the 2 on the bang side of things. Major difference in shortening the "fire discipline" process.

But back to the Italians: I noticed their anti-tank capability is all dismounts, and not vehicle-borne? What's up with that?

I agree on the use of auto laying and aiming, but not loading. Methinks this was conceived to separate Arabs with more money than sense from their petrodollars.

Actually, Denel once claimed that the new LR 60mm ammo is almost as deadly as traditional 81mm rounds due to the body being longer and holding more HE filling. Maybe they're using pre-formed frag like with the new 105mm rounds. I'm curious if the new rounds with fire from a patmor. Cant see why not.

I agree that they should keep the Ratel 81's in inventory. Those Ratels general didn't get beat up as much as Ratel 20's or 90's, so they should keep on trucking for a long time. I actually think they'd have a bigger market if they developed a LR 81mm tube and ammo like they did with the 60mm. I can see a lot of armies swapping their 120mm's for a 81mm with 90% of the bang.
The Thales Scorpion can fit a 81mm tube if I'm not mistaken. The Recces are married to their 60mm's. Can't practically carry anything bigger in their clown cars. I still don't get why they got rid of their Tapirs. Suspect some people were making out like bandits with surplus vehicle sales in the 90's and during the war on terror.

The Italians will no doubt add 120mm Centauro's to that orbat as the need arises.

frumentius:

Thanks for this. I was initially apprehensive lest my opinion be too influenced by SA doctrine. I agree with you on the 60mm/patmor pairing.

As you rightly point out, Denel's long range 60mm now shoots out to the same range as 81mm. Effect-on-range vs fire-on-range?
For example; I'll use Ratel as Badger is a work in progress and classified:
Ratel can carry either
1) 148- 81mm bombs at a weight of 666kg;
2) 391- 60mm bombs; and
3) 41- 120mm mortars, for the same weight.

Assuming a sustained rate of fire of 16 bombs/minute that means 120mm support fire for 2.5 minutes, 81mm for 9.25 minutes and 60mm for 24.4 minutes.
Now, the logs guys simplistically say do away with the 81mm and carry more of the 60mm which has same range and better accuracy.
I disagree. Keep the 60 as a Patmor, use the limited tech funds on the 81mm and motorise the 120mm. Away from our planning desks and screens, the guys down-range need to do more than just keep people under cover . Logs job is simply to remove the worry of supply from the guys on the front [On Friday afternoon, 22 March, everyone at JOps knew fecal matter was flowing in Bangui and the logs guys were hamstrung by the TTPs such that relief only arrived on Tues, at great expense and too late to be of use].

As for the automated mortars: having recently observed the Recces using the Scorpion[auto laying and aiming] system both in manual and auto loading, not much to choose between the 2 on the bang side of things. Major difference in shortening the "fire discipline" process.

But back to the Italians: I noticed their anti-tank capability is all dismounts, and not vehicle-borne? What's up with that?

61mech:
I agree on the use of auto laying and aiming, but not loading. Methinks this was conceived to separate Arabs with more money than sense from their petrodollars.

Actually, Denel once claimed that the new LR 60mm ammo is almost as deadly as traditional 81mm rounds due to the body being longer and holding more HE filling. Maybe they're using pre-formed frag like with the new 105mm rounds. I'm curious if the new rounds with fire from a patmor. Cant see why not.

I agree that they should keep the Ratel 81's in inventory. Those Ratels general didn't get beat up as much as Ratel 20's or 90's, so they should keep on trucking for a long time. I actually think they'd have a bigger market if they developed a LR 81mm tube and ammo like they did with the 60mm. I can see a lot of armies swapping their 120mm's for a 81mm with 90% of the bang.
The Thales Scorpion can fit a 81mm tube if I'm not mistaken. The Recces are married to their 60mm's. Can't practically carry anything bigger in their clown cars. I still don't get why they got rid of their Tapirs. Suspect some people were making out like bandits with surplus vehicle sales in the 90's and during the war on terror.

The Italians will no doubt add 120mm Centauro's to that orbat as the need arises.

Oh dear, I fear we'll stray from the Freccia orbat and end up discussing mortars.
Odunayaw and kikuyu1 won't mind .

Nevertheless, I agree wholeheartedly on a LR 81mm. In fact, were I running Denel this is where I'd have focused, instead of the 60mm.
No, the Scorpion only caters for the 60 and 120mm.
The Recces' golf carts aren't bad, actually. They also have Geckos for logs and specially-adapted Mambas for MPV. None of which alleviates the lack of a Tapir. Unfortunately, in these tight fiscal times, the 3 vehicle types are regarded as fulfilling 3 roles by National Treasury:
1) Personnel - Hornet;
2) Logistics - Gecko;
3) Protected Mobility - Mamba.

Never mind that JOps constantly argues they cater for 2 roles and the 3rd has been defunded.

Anyhoo, I still have serious reservations about that Italian orbat. Our defence attache who attended an exercise wrote that the entire structure falls short of what they have on paper. Never mind the missing logs tail: apparently the dismounts were a 3rd of what they should be. The reconnaissance platoon was under-strength, etc, etc.
The sort of problems I'd expect from a military not given enough time to get ship-shape in a time of war.

Then again, I think our entire structure is ineffective and should be over-hauled, so maybe I'm not objective.

Just kidding about the recces clown cars of course. I actually think they can be extremely effective, because you can sling them under a Oryx. Not sure if they've retained the capability to airdrop hornets.

Didn't know they operated Mambas. Are these modified in any way? They used to have the ability to mod their vehicles in-house. They had quite a "skunk works" division back in the day.
They did like using Casspirs back in the day.

I do think they should invest in some RG-32's for the recces and possibly the bats. Would fit well with their current missions being mostly peace keeping/enforcement.

frumentius:


Oh dear, I fear we'll stray from the Freccia orbat and end up discussing mortars.
Odunayaw and kikuyu1 won't mind .

Nevertheless, I agree wholeheartedly on a LR 81mm. In fact, were I running Denel this is where I'd have focused, instead of the 60mm.
No, the Scorpion only caters for the 60 and 120mm.
The Recces' golf carts aren't bad, actually. They also have Geckos for logs and specially-adapted Mambas for MPV. None of which alleviates the lack of a Tapir. Unfortunately, in these tight fiscal times, the 3 vehicle types are regarded as fulfilling 3 roles by National Treasury:
1) Personnel - Hornet;
2) Logistics - Gecko;
3) Protected Mobility - Mamba.

Never mind that JOps constantly argues they cater for 2 roles and the 3rd has been defunded.

Anyhoo, I still have serious reservations about that Italian orbat. Our defence attache who attended an exercise wrote that the entire structure falls short of what they have on paper. Never mind the missing logs tail: apparently the dismounts were a 3rd of what they should be. The reconnaissance platoon was under-strength, etc, etc.
The sort of problems I'd expect from a military not given enough time to get ship-shape in a time of war.

Then again, I think our entire structure is ineffective and should be over-hauled, so maybe I'm not objective.

61mech:
Just kidding about the recces clown cars of course. I actually think they can be extremely effective, because you can sling them under a Oryx. Not sure if they've retained the capability to airdrop hornets.

Didn't know they operated Mambas. Are these modified in any way? They used to have the ability to mod their vehicles in-house. They had quite a "skunk works" division back in the day.
They did like using Casspirs back in the day.

I do think they should invest in some RG-32's for the recces and possibly the bats. Would fit well with their current missions being mostly peace keeping/enforcement.

The air-drop capability is there, across more platforms and environments than the Vlermuis and Jackals. More dismounts, better protection, better modularity, more armament, better C4SIR etc. One of the better RDRV platforms out there.

When they lost the Tapirs, Mambas were brought in as a replacement. And yes, they've been modified into the various roles that the Regiments' Commandos play. For example, the 2125m sniper shot in the DRC was off the roof of one of the Recces' special Mambas.

The reason I doubt they can currently drop hornets is that you only ever see Gecko's being parra dropped. The hornet had a cage that it was inside of that got airdropped. Not sure if they actually acquired that capability.
Still don't understand why they gave up the Tapirs. They already had them and maintenance cant cost much more than a Samil 50

frumentius:

The air-drop capability is there, across more platforms and environments than the Vlermuis and Jackals. More dismounts, better protection, better modularity, more armament, better C4SIR etc. One of the better RDRV platforms out there.

When they lost the Tapirs, Mambas were brought in as a replacement. And yes, they've been modified into the various roles that the Regiments' Commandos play. For example, the 2125m sniper shot in the DRC was off the roof of one of the Recces' special Mambas.

@Gottfried the 11000 hectare farm Defence has bought has JOPS and Special Forces written all over it

But according to Major-General Ben Kadhila, the chief of staff for joint operations, more than one unit will be housed there.

“Multiple specialists will be trained at the base,” he said. Kadhila said for security reasons he could not divulge how many units or soldiers would be based at Oropoko.

Namibia has seven military bases, each housing between 700 and 1 000 soldiers. Kadhila further confirmed that the “multiple specialists” would be trained for anti-poaching interventions.

“This will, however, only be one area of training for the troops,” he said.

He said soldiers would be billeted in the former lodge's rooms, and the restaurant would be used as a kitchen and staff canteen.

“These are all added advantages, while the wild animals on the farm will help in the anti-poaching training.”

According to Shilumbu the farm is strategically located as it is near the capital. It has a helipad and an airfield, which the army intends to transform into a military airport.

Furthermore, the farm has an Olympic-standard shooting range that will be used as a training area.

Shilumbu said Oropoko has a well-developed laundry, conference centre, kitchens, accommodation as well as mechanical workshop where the troops can maintain NDF vehicles without travelling to town for repairs.

https://www.namibiansun.com/news/army-buys-luxury-lodge2018-02-08/
http://www.oropoko.com.na

ViceAdmirlAgain:
@Gottfried the 11000 hectare farm Defence has bought has JOPS and Special Forces written all over it

https://www.namibiansun.com/news/army-buys-luxury-lodge2018-02-08/
http://www.oropoko.com.na

I don’t know anymore...

gottfried21:

I don’t know anymore...

Come on its secluded, has an airstrip, excellent lodging facilities,ample space and a shooting range, wildlife
...something recces would love

frumentius:


Oh dear, I fear we'll stray from the Freccia orbat and end up discussing mortars.
Odunayaw and kikuyu1 won't mind .

Nevertheless, I agree wholeheartedly on a LR 81mm. In fact, were I running Denel this is where I'd have focused, instead of the 60mm.
No, the Scorpion only caters for the 60 and 120mm.
The Recces' golf carts aren't bad, actually. They also have Geckos for logs and specially-adapted Mambas for MPV. None of which alleviates the lack of a Tapir. Unfortunately, in these tight fiscal times, the 3 vehicle types are regarded as fulfilling 3 roles by National Treasury:
1) Personnel - Hornet;
2) Logistics - Gecko;
3) Protected Mobility - Mamba.

Never mind that JOps constantly argues they cater for 2 roles and the 3rd has been defunded.

Anyhoo, I still have serious reservations about that Italian orbat. Our defence attache who attended an exercise wrote that the entire structure falls short of what they have on paper. Never mind the missing logs tail: apparently the dismounts were a 3rd of what they should be. The reconnaissance platoon was under-strength, etc, etc.
The sort of problems I'd expect from a military not given enough time to get ship-shape in a time of war.

Then again, I think our entire structure is ineffective and should be over-hauled, so maybe I'm not objective.

I've just seen the ORBAT on the other link-you're right! Def undermanned. Also the coy will need a minimum of one more log truck. Imo,its maybe the Italian approach to warfighting which is itself a reflection of the national character. In August 2009,2 platoons of French Marine Paras,1 Afghan army platoon and a section of US specops were 'bushed in the Uzbin valley losing 10.
Predictably,Jean-Fraude screamed in rage when he discovered the recently vacated Italian Alpini,shown here had been bribing the Taliban for peace!

The French government came under pressure today to investigate allegations that a failure by Italy to disclose the full nature of the Italian strategy in Afghanistan inadvertently led to one of the deadliest attacks on France's army in decades.

Reports that Italian intelligence officers had been paying Taliban fighters not to attack their troops – and that France's ignorance of this tactic left it unaware of the true security risk in the Sarobi district of Afghanistan when it took over last summer – were dismissed as "rubbish" by Italy's defence minister. But the allegation sparked outrage in France

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/oct/16/france-italy-taliban-afghanistan

A wikileaks report confirmed the Italian strategy.

ViceAdmirlAgain:


Come on its secluded, has an airstrip, excellent lodging facilities,ample space and a shooting range, wildlife
...something recces would love

Meh,I can see why they would want it.It looks like an old Koevoet base...I don’t know what luxury they are talking about.

gottfried21:

Meh,I can see why they would want it.It looks like an old Koevoet base...I don’t know what luxury they are talking about.

It even looks the part already

Kenya Navy -exercise cutlass

GSU Recce officer felled by friendly fire 2013

2 Rooivalk crews

SF

ViceAdmirlAgain:
@Gottfried the 11000 hectare farm Defence has bought has JOPS and Special Forces written all over it

https://www.namibiansun.com/news/army-buys-luxury-lodge2018-02-08/
http://www.oropoko.com.na

100% chance of that being used for some dodgy shit.

Sounds fantastic though.

KDF new recruits graduation

Some rare/random/personal KDF photos

Excuse the quality

4 Artillery Regiment holding a farewell parade for Major General Holtzhausen.

61mech:
The reason I doubt they can currently drop hornets is that you only ever see Gecko's being parra dropped. The hornet had a cage that it was inside of that got airdropped. Not sure if they actually acquired that capability.
Still don't understand why they gave up the Tapirs. They already had them and maintenance cant cost much more than a Samil 50

here you go. A Recce mate says they do it once or twice a year, depending on Herc availability.

forgive the poor pics.

A visit to the anti-poaching teams at Kruger National Park.

frumentius:
A visit to the anti-poaching teams at Kruger National Park.

What was being "exploded"?

saengine:


What was being "exploded"?

A huge buried weapons cache too unstable to be moved. Hours were spent by the chopper doing low passes to disperse wild-life away from the scene.

Back in the day, on exercises.

Good to know they practice that. Would be a nasty surprise for an insurgent group to have these things drop with SF in their rear areas.
The drop system I saw was a metal cage that the hornet was inside off.

frumentius:


here you go. A Recce mate says they do it once or twice a year, depending on Herc availability.

forgive the poor pics.

61mech:
Good to know they practice that. Would be a nasty surprise for an insurgent group to have these things drop with SF in their rear areas.
The drop system I saw was a metal cage that the hornet was inside off.

I'm more worried about the SAAF funding crunch. All our elite units utilising Hercs are suffering because the supply runs to the DRC are prioritised. The Pathfinders for example, have a set number of HAHO and HALO jumps they're supposed to do over a set period. They're doing half that. 4 Recce's 4.3 Commando, the Submarine Parachute Action Group (SPAG) also does half their alloted jumps.

The Air Force has tried to alleviate it by fixing the CASAs, which only benefits some roles within 4&5Recce, Parabats, and the STF.
4 Medical Battalion Gp only does 1 HAHO jump per year.

I honestly don't know how long we can continue with more and more demands/taskings on the military with less and less funding.

Added to that, the funding from the UN for peacekeeping missions doesn't make it back into the SAAF budget. (I think they changed this recently)
Astonishingly shortsighted practice from the Gov.
I don't understand why they don't just contract SAFAIR to do the supply missions. They have long bodied Hercs that fly UN humanitarian missions anyway and they have new C130's being delivered this year.
At some point the Gov. is going to have to pull the trigger on replacing the C130's.
The KC-390 would be my choice. It would also bring back the air-air refereeing capability to the SAAF. Our Grips need longer legs.
Plenty of ways we can do a deal with the Brazilians.
Talking about pie in the sky, here's my vote for Oryx replacement. Code name "Groot Koos"

frumentius:


I'm more worried about the SAAF funding crunch. All our elite units utilising Hercs are suffering because the supply runs to the DRC are prioritised. The Pathfinders for example, have a set number of HAHO and HALO jumps they're supposed to do over a set period. They're doing half that. 4 Recce's 4.3 Commando, the Submarine Parachute Action Group (SPAG) also does half their alloted jumps.

The Air Force has tried to alleviate it by fixing the CASAs, which only benefits some roles within 4&5Recce, Parabats, and the STF.
4 Medical Battalion Gp only does 1 HAHO jump per year.

I honestly don't know how long we can continue with more and more demands/taskings on the military with less and less funding.

61mech:
Added to that, the funding from the UN for peacekeeping missions doesn't make it back into the SAAF budget. (I think they changed this recently)
Astonishingly shortsighted practice from the Gov.
I don't understand why they don't just contract SAFAIR to do the supply missions. They have long bodied Hercs that fly UN humanitarian missions anyway and they have new C130's being delivered this year.
At some point the Gov. is going to have to pull the trigger on replacing the C130's.
The KC-390 would be my choice. It would also bring back the air-air refereeing capability to the SAAF. Our Grips need longer legs.
Plenty of ways we can do a deal with the Brazilians.
Talking about pie in the sky, here's my vote for Oryx replacement. Code name "Groot Koos"

Surely the KC-390 engines would be no-bueno for unpaved strips? Also, regardless of what we get the problem is not the aircraft but the funds for maintenance. By my understanding we have ~9 C-130's but only around 5 are operational. Surely replacing them is pointless if they will just end up with another maintenance backlog?

i reckon best bet would be something smaller to replace the CASA's over the short term followed by a C-130 replacement over the long term, betting on an economic recovery.

I understand that if the commitment were made the C-130's could still have an extended life-span.

I reckon something like the An-132D would be the best bet over the short term, something to shuttle troops to and fro, and at the same time give the SF the jumps they need.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE7442BTE54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOUIH4MoIW8