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African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread - Foreign Affairs (2223) - Nairaland

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African Militaries Strictly Discussions Thread. / African Militaries - Discussed And Dissected / What Countries Have The Weakest Militaries In Africa? (2) (3) (4)

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Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by shadowprimezero: 3:15pm On Nov 09, 2020
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by mekussa(m): 3:20pm On Nov 09, 2020
[quote author=kabe1 post=95831735]

You didn't get the actual crux of that debate. That individual was saying drones should be used to target foot soldiers. That's not the best method of employment of UCAVs.

What Turkey has done in this conflict, there's no proof to show Azerbaijani are the ones conducting these drone strikes, is that they have used the drones to target armour, SEAD missions and large grouping of soldiers.

That's how Drones are used.

Also note, Drones are slow moving aircrafts, they can be targeted easily by more modern air defence systems. We've seen this in Syria, Libya and now Armenia.

We need to have a mix of highly capable offensive systems. If we add the 8 UCAVs which we just procured, plus the 4 units previously in service we would have a good mix of offensive assets for LICW environment.[/quote

You have a point. I made the comment strictly with regards to using drones against their trucks which they use to mount their AA guns as well as transport their footsoldiers. An army that can't move, can't fight. Using them this way gives us an advantage IMO. . However, I acknowledge the fact that buying these foreign drones opens up our behind and exposes us to silly sanctions from every tom, dick and harry. The solution (though long term), lies in domestic production..... The military REALLY needs to allow private production under strict supervision, the private sector has the ability to think outside the box and meet up the STRICT parameters a serious military would give them.

My two kobo sha.
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Xbee007(m): 7:02pm On Nov 09, 2020
Last week the COAS mentioned that NAF recently took delivery of 4 UCAVs. Does anyone know the make and model?

Cc Oyinpr
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Nobody: 7:59pm On Nov 09, 2020
Maybe since Nigeria received patrol boats from SA @Kabe1 has changed his tune grin grin grin grin

If Nigeria needs drones you could always come South grin

Pic: Battle proven Seeker 400

Pic 2: Milkor UAV which can also be armed.

5 Likes

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Toju200(m): 8:07pm On Nov 09, 2020
Xbee007:
Last week the COAS mentioned that NAF recently took delivery of 4 UCAVs. Does anyone know the make and model?

Cc Oyinpr
im not sure the drones are in country he said he'll deploy four drones to Zamfara and the remaining two to Gombe (203 CRG) and Maiduguri ( 102 composite group).
But LionelBlog insisted the drones are here I'm still waiting for pics
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Xbee007(m): 8:09pm On Nov 09, 2020
Toju200:
im not sure the drones are in country he said he'll deploy four drones to Zamfara and the remaining two to Gombe (203 CRG) and Maiduguri ( 102 composite group).
But LionelBlog insisted the drones are here I'm still waiting for pics
That the drone are in-country is not even a debate. The COAS clearly said they are already within the country and ready to be deployed. In fact, you posted it here on that day. I just wish to know the make of the UCAVs.

1 Like 1 Share

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by slimthugchimee2(m): 8:15pm On Nov 09, 2020
jln115:
Maybe since Nigeria received patrol boats from SA @Kabe1 has changed his tune grin grin grin grin

If Nigeria needs drones you could always come South grin

Pic: Battle proven Seeker 400

Pic 2: Milkor UAV which can also be armed.

They will not be able to deliver grin
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Nobody: 8:27pm On Nov 09, 2020
slimthugchimee2:


They will not be able to deliver grin
Well they delivered @Kabe1s Patrol boats just a couple of days ago.......... grin grin wink

1 Like

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by lebuhsi(m): 8:38pm On Nov 09, 2020
Xbee007:

That the drone are in-country is not even a debate. The COAS clearly said they are already within the country and ready to be deployed. In fact, you posted it here on that day. I just wish to know the make of the UCAVs.

8 CH-4Bs

1 Like

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by kabe1: 9:06pm On Nov 09, 2020
jln115:
Maybe since Nigeria received patrol boats from SA @Kabe1 has changed his tune grin grin grin grin

If Nigeria needs drones you could always come South grin

Pic: Battle proven Seeker 400

Pic 2: Milkor UAV which can also be armed.

If you can't deliver for the South-African National Army, how would you deliver to Nigeria?

You can't deliver to Egypt.

The patrol boats you delivered to Nigeria are for private security, not the Nigerian military.
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by kabe1: 9:07pm On Nov 09, 2020
jln115:
Well they delivered @Kabe1s Patrol boats just a couple of days ago.......... grin grin wink

To a private security company, not the Nigerian military.
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by kabe1: 10:00pm On Nov 09, 2020
[b]OPERATIONAL EFFECTIVENESS RECEIVES BOOST AS CAS INSPECTS ONGOING REACTIVATION WORK ON F-7NI AIRCRAFT, COMMISSIONS INFRASTRUCTURAL PROJECTS IN MAKURDI

The drive to reposition the Nigerian Air Force (NAF) into a highly professional and disciplined force through capacity building initiatives for effective, efficient and timely employment of air power in response to Nigeria’s national security imperatives, is receiving further boosts as the Service is set to take delivery of additional aircraft, including 3 JF-17 multi-role fighter aircraft and 8 Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles (UCAVs), whilst also reactivating several existing platforms such as the F-7Ni fighter jet. This was made known today, 9 November 2020, by the the Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), Air Marshal Sadique Abubakar, who was on an operational visit to NAF Base Makurdi to assess the ongoing reactivation work on the F-7 aircraft.

While in Makurdi, the CAS also commissioned some infrastructural projects, including the newly-remodeled and fully-furnished NAF School of Air Intelligence (NAFSAINT) as well as a block of 10 x single bedroom and block of 6 x 2-bedroom accommodation for the Pakistani pilots and technicians who would support the JF-17 aircraft during the first year of its operations in Nigeria. The CAS was also briefed on the progress of some ongoing Research and Development (R&grin) projects, which include a handheld single-rocket launcher and 6-tube rocket launcher, being jointly executed by the 131 Engineering Group and the 633 Central Armament Depot (633 CAD) Makurdi.

Speaking after assessing the progress of work on the F-7Ni aircraft, the CAS expressed extreme delight that the Federal Government’s support to the NAF was yielding great dividends in ensuring the Service has the required platforms to more effectively secure the Nation. He noted that this was evident in the volume of ongoing reactivation work on several grounded aircraft to bring them back to serviceable status. “Recall that, just last week, we were in Kainji to assess the progress of ongoing in-country Periodic Depot Maintenance (PDM) on 2 Alpha Jet aircraft. Today, we are in Makurdi for the reactivation of the F-7 aircraft and, by next week, we will be in Kano to see what is going on with the Life Extension Programme (LEP) of another batch of 3 L-39ZA aircraft”, he said.

Air Marshal Abubakar emphasized that these activities clearly showed the level of seriousness with which the Government is working to ensure that the NAF gets some of its grounded aircraft back to flying status. He revealed that, out of the 9 F-7 fighter jets earmarked for reactivation, 7 aircraft, which require high level, in-depth maintenance by the Original Equipment Manufacturer, were being disassembled for freighting to China due to the unavailability of all the necessary maintenance and test equipment within Nigeria. He however highlighted that 2 of the aircraft would undergo Life Extension Programme within the Country, which would be executed by the Chinese technical partners, with support from NAF Engineers and Technicians, using equipment in the recently reactivated Machine Tools Workshop at the 131 Engineering Group. The idea, he said, was to ensure that the NAF has adequate number of serviceable aircraft whilst also building the capacity of NAF personnel in line with what was done with the Alpha Jets in Kainji as well as with the C-130Hs and the L-39ZAs aircraft in Ikeja and Kano, respectively. “This clearly shows that all hands are on deck. We are working round the clock to ensure that we have what it takes in terms of capabilities as well as capacity to ensure that we provide the required security for our people and our country”, the CAS added. He further disclosed that the UCAVs being expected from China had been packaged for shipment to Nigeria, while the training of the NAF personnel to man them is ongoing in China.

Speaking earlier during the commissioning ceremony, the CAS stated that since 2015, the NAF had prioritized the provision of good living accommodation for personnel as well as befitting hostels and state-of-the-art training facilities for its schools. These efforts, he said, had greatly enhanced the output of NAF operations and given the Service several technological breakthroughs. Air Marshal Abubakar further noted that the current security challenges facing the Nation had necessitated robust, unique and diversified approaches to military operations, particularly in intelligence gathering. “Upgrading our structures for intelligence gathering is one of those approaches. As such, the importance of this event cannot be overemphasized”, he said.

Air Marshal Abubakar further disclosed that the acquisition of 3 variants of UCAVs; 2 x Wing Loong II, 4 x CH-4 and 2 x CH-3; were part of efforts to enhance the NAF’s intelligence gathering for air operations.[/b] He added that the equipment alone cannot deliver accurate intelligence. According to him, “the NAF is not oblivious of the fact that it would always need skilled intelligence personnel to translate the information from these machines into actionable intelligence needed to formulate plans, make decisions and take actions. As such, the Service is keenly developing the knowledge and skills of intelligence operators for this purpose”.

While reminding personnel to justify the resources being expended to improve their knowledge, skills and welfare, the CAS urged them to do all within their power to ensure that they deliver desired results for the security and progress of the Country. “As a Service, we must strive to meet the expectations of the country at this time of our heightened involvement in curbing insecurity. We must efficiently protect the citizenry and our critical assets and, as much as, possible support the civil authorities in ensuring the safety and security of our society. We must ensure we put in our best to ensure that the Nation’s territorial integrity and sovereignty are not undermined by individual or group of individuals”, he said. The CAS expressed his profound appreciation to the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Nigeria, President Muhammadu Buhari, for his support in ensuring that the NAF is better skilled and equipped to fulfill its statutory responsibilities. He also thanked members of the National Assembly for their continued support to the Service.

Earlier in his welcome remarks, the Commandant NAFSAINT, Air Commodore Ernest Owai, while expressing his appreciation to the CAS for his unwavering support, stated that the School, in keeping with the CAS’ Vision, had continued to review its curriculum and manuals in accordance with the dynamic nature of the intelligence statecraft to ensure the provision of accurate and timely intelligence to support NAF operations. He said the upgraded facilities would provide the much-needed relief and enabling environment for more effective impartation of knowledge. “As the CAS always says, ‘you cannot give what you do not have’, hence the drive for capacity building. We are indeed thankful to the CAS for improving the lot of the NAFSAINT and for continuously showing uncommon commitment to meeting the needs of the School”. He assured that the facility would be judiciously utilized and properly maintained to serve generations of NAF personnel that would pass through the School.

Other dignitaries at the ceremony included the Chief of Defence Intelligence, Air Vice Marshal Mohammed Usman; the Commander Operation WHIRL STROKE; Air Officers Commanding of the Tactical Air Command and Air Training Command; as well as other senior military officers and heads of security agencies in Benue State.

IBIKUNLE DARAMOLA
Air Commodore
Director of Public Relations and Information
Nigerian Air Force
9 November 2020

1 Like

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Nobody: 10:01pm On Nov 09, 2020
kabe1:


To a private security company, not the Nigerian military.
Point being?
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by kabe1: 10:03pm On Nov 09, 2020
..

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Nobody: 10:03pm On Nov 09, 2020
kabe1:


If you can't deliver for the South-African National Army, how would you deliver to Nigeria?

You can't deliver to Egypt.

The patrol boats you delivered to Nigeria are for private security, not the Nigerian military.
Denel cancelled the contract to deliver to Egypt, it wasn't like they had a contract then failed to deliver wink

Secondly what difference does it make if its a private company or not?? like seriously?

Lastly what's your obsession with Denel?? you do realize that they are not the only defence company in SA?

1 Like

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by kabe1: 10:03pm On Nov 09, 2020
...

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by kabe1: 10:04pm On Nov 09, 2020
Xbee007:

That the drone are in-country is not even a debate. The COAS clearly said they are already within the country and ready to be deployed. In fact, you posted it here on that day. I just wish to know the make of the UCAVs.

Ch-4

Wing-long

Ch-3

These are the types ordered.


Air Marshal Abubakar further disclosed that the acquisition of 3 variants of UCAVs; 2 x Wing Loong II, 4 x CH-4 and 2 x CH-3; were part of efforts to enhance the NAF’s intelligence gathering for air operations

5 Likes

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Toju200(m): 10:05pm On Nov 09, 2020
kabe1:
[b]OPERATIONAL EFFECTIVENESS RECEIVES BOOST AS CAS INSPECTS ONGOING REACTIVATION WORK ON F-7NI AIRCRAFT, COMMISSIONS INFRASTRUCTURAL PROJECTS IN MAKURDI

The drive to reposition the Nigerian Air Force (NAF) into a highly professional and disciplined force through capacity building initiatives for effective, efficient and timely employment of air power in response to Nigeria’s national security imperatives, is receiving further boosts as the Service is set to take delivery of additional aircraft, including 3 JF-17 multi-role fighter aircraft and 8 Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles (UCAVs), whilst also reactivating several existing platforms such as the F-7Ni fighter jet. This was made known today, 9 November 2020, by the the Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), Air Marshal Sadique Abubakar, who was on an operational visit to NAF Base Makurdi to assess the ongoing reactivation work on the F-7 aircraft.

While in Makurdi, the CAS also commissioned some infrastructural projects, including the newly-remodeled and fully-furnished NAF School of Air Intelligence (NAFSAINT) as well as a block of 10 x single bedroom and block of 6 x 2-bedroom accommodation for the Pakistani pilots and technicians who would support the JF-17 aircraft during the first year of its operations in Nigeria. The CAS was also briefed on the progress of some ongoing Research and Development (R&grin) projects, which include a handheld single-rocket launcher and 6-tube rocket launcher, being jointly executed by the 131 Engineering Group and the 633 Central Armament Depot (633 CAD) Makurdi.

Speaking after assessing the progress of work on the F-7Ni aircraft, the CAS expressed extreme delight that the Federal Government’s support to the NAF was yielding great dividends in ensuring the Service has the required platforms to more effectively secure the Nation. He noted that this was evident in the volume of ongoing reactivation work on several grounded aircraft to bring them back to serviceable status. “Recall that, just last week, we were in Kainji to assess the progress of ongoing in-country Periodic Depot Maintenance (PDM) on 2 Alpha Jet aircraft. Today, we are in Makurdi for the reactivation of the F-7 aircraft and, by next week, we will be in Kano to see what is going on with the Life Extension Programme (LEP) of another batch of 3 L-39ZA aircraft”, he said.

Air Marshal Abubakar emphasized that these activities clearly showed the level of seriousness with which the Government is working to ensure that the NAF gets some of its grounded aircraft back to flying status. He revealed that, out of the 9 F-7 fighter jets earmarked for reactivation, 7 aircraft, which require high level, in-depth maintenance by the Original Equipment Manufacturer, were being disassembled for freighting to China due to the unavailability of all the necessary maintenance and test equipment within Nigeria. He however highlighted that 2 of the aircraft would undergo Life Extension Programme within the Country, which would be executed by the Chinese technical partners, with support from NAF Engineers and Technicians, using equipment in the recently reactivated Machine Tools Workshop at the 131 Engineering Group. The idea, he said, was to ensure that the NAF has adequate number of serviceable aircraft whilst also building the capacity of NAF personnel in line with what was done with the Alpha Jets in Kainji as well as with the C-130Hs and the L-39ZAs aircraft in Ikeja and Kano, respectively. “This clearly shows that all hands are on deck. We are working round the clock to ensure that we have what it takes in terms of capabilities as well as capacity to ensure that we provide the required security for our people and our country”, the CAS added. He further disclosed that the UCAVs being expected from China had been packaged for shipment to Nigeria, while the training of the NAF personnel to man them is ongoing in China.

Speaking earlier during the commissioning ceremony, the CAS stated that since 2015, the NAF had prioritized the provision of good living accommodation for personnel as well as befitting hostels and state-of-the-art training facilities for its schools. These efforts, he said, had greatly enhanced the output of NAF operations and given the Service several technological breakthroughs. Air Marshal Abubakar further noted that the current security challenges facing the Nation had necessitated robust, unique and diversified approaches to military operations, particularly in intelligence gathering. “Upgrading our structures for intelligence gathering is one of those approaches. As such, the importance of this event cannot be overemphasized”, he said.

Air Marshal Abubakar further disclosed that the acquisition of 3 variants of UCAVs; 2 x Wing Loong II, 4 x CH-4 and 2 x CH-3; were part of efforts to enhance the NAF’s intelligence gathering for air operations.[/b] He added that the equipment alone cannot deliver accurate intelligence. According to him, “the NAF is not oblivious of the fact that it would always need skilled intelligence personnel to translate the information from these machines into actionable intelligence needed to formulate plans, make decisions and take actions. As such, the Service is keenly developing the knowledge and skills of intelligence operators for this purpose”.

While reminding personnel to justify the resources being expended to improve their knowledge, skills and welfare, the CAS urged them to do all within their power to ensure that they deliver desired results for the security and progress of the Country. “As a Service, we must strive to meet the expectations of the country at this time of our heightened involvement in curbing insecurity. We must efficiently protect the citizenry and our critical assets and, as much as, possible support the civil authorities in ensuring the safety and security of our society. We must ensure we put in our best to ensure that the Nation’s territorial integrity and sovereignty are not undermined by individual or group of individuals”, he said. The CAS expressed his profound appreciation to the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Nigeria, President Muhammadu Buhari, for his support in ensuring that the NAF is better skilled and equipped to fulfill its statutory responsibilities. He also thanked members of the National Assembly for their continued support to the Service.

Earlier in his welcome remarks, the Commandant NAFSAINT, Air Commodore Ernest Owai, while expressing his appreciation to the CAS for his unwavering support, stated that the School, in keeping with the CAS’ Vision, had continued to review its curriculum and manuals in accordance with the dynamic nature of the intelligence statecraft to ensure the provision of accurate and timely intelligence to support NAF operations. He said the upgraded facilities would provide the much-needed relief and enabling environment for more effective impartation of knowledge. “As the CAS always says, ‘you cannot give what you do not have’, hence the drive for capacity building. We are indeed thankful to the CAS for improving the lot of the NAFSAINT and for continuously showing uncommon commitment to meeting the needs of the School”. He assured that the facility would be judiciously utilized and properly maintained to serve generations of NAF personnel that would pass through the School.

Other dignitaries at the ceremony included the Chief of Defence Intelligence, Air Vice Marshal Mohammed Usman; the Commander Operation WHIRL STROKE; Air Officers Commanding of the Tactical Air Command and Air Training Command; as well as other senior military officers and heads of security agencies in Benue State.

IBIKUNLE DARAMOLA
Air Commodore
Director of Public Relations and Information
Nigerian Air Force
9 November 2020
CH-4,CH-3,Wing Loong ii hmm impressive..
See I told y'all the drones aren't here yet.
According to CAS it's been packed for shipment here.

1 Like

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by kabe1: 10:12pm On Nov 09, 2020
Locally made Rockets for Nigerian Air Force Aircrafts

1 Like

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by kabe1: 10:14pm On Nov 09, 2020
Recent South-African army exercise

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by kabe1: 10:15pm On Nov 09, 2020
More

1 Like

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Xbee007(m): 5:33am On Nov 10, 2020
kabe1:


Ch-4

Wing-long

Ch-3

These are the types ordered.


Air Marshal Abubakar further disclosed that the acquisition of 3 variants of UCAVs; 2 x Wing Loong II, 4 x CH-4 and 2 x CH-3; were part of efforts to enhance the NAF’s intelligence gathering for air operations
I'm most delighted about the Wing Long II. And why on earth are we still buying the CH-3

4 Likes

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Toju200(m): 5:36am On Nov 10, 2020
Hi everyone I really don't think I'VE done this here before.but I'll swallow my pride and ask for your help cos me keeping quiet won't help me.

I learnt Forex recently and illI like to begin trading but I don't have capital to start pls guys nothing is too small.

I'm not asking for 20k from one person

At least if 5 people can bring 2k sef it's means a lot to me I'll appreciate.



ACC:2264397452

Zenith Bank :Toju Dudun

Pls guys help me out

1 Like

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Nobody: 6:05am On Nov 10, 2020
Toju200:

Hi everyone I really don't think I'VE done this here before.but I'll swallow my pride and ask for your help cos me keeping quiet won't help me.

I learnt Forex recently and illI like to begin trading but I don't have capital to start pls guys nothing is too small.

I'm not asking for 20k from one person

At least if 5 people can bring 2k sef it's means a lot to me I'll appreciate.



ACC:2264397452

Zenith Bank :Toju Dudun

Pls guys help me out
how long have you been trading?
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Tobiloba2407: 6:23am On Nov 10, 2020
Toju200:

Hi everyone I really don't think I'VE done this here before.but I'll swallow my pride and ask for your help cos me keeping quiet won't help me.

I learnt Forex recently and illI like to begin trading but I don't have capital to start pls guys nothing is too small.

I'm not asking for 20k from one person

At least if 5 people can bring 2k sef it's means a lot to me I'll appreciate.



ACC:2264397452

Zenith Bank :Toju Dudun

Pls guys help me out


Hmm, this forex that i lost 2m on.
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Toju200(m): 7:12am On Nov 10, 2020
Tobiloba2407:



Hmm, this forex that i lost 2m on.
Really...
But pls sir I really need your help nothing is too small... I just need minimum 10k pls just bring what you have
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Toju200(m): 7:13am On Nov 10, 2020
Tobiloba2407:



Hmm, this forex that i lost 2m on.


Pls I really need your help guys
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by shadowprimezero: 7:34am On Nov 10, 2020
Unsurprisingly, looks like Armenia lost the war.

1 Like

Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Toju200(m): 8:36am On Nov 10, 2020
jln115:
how long have you been trading?
a year now pls really need y'all help guys
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Lurker4Long: 8:58am On Nov 10, 2020
jln115:
Point being?

Could have sworn the Nigerian Navy SBS uses Paramount boats!
And the NAF Regiment and SF use Paramount Marauder APCs!
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Nobody: 9:35am On Nov 10, 2020
Lurker4Long:


Could have sworn the Nigerian Navy SBS uses Paramount boats!
And the NAF Regiment and SF use Paramount Marauder APCs!

72nd use South African Reva MRAPs.... As well
Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Nobody: 9:37am On Nov 10, 2020
shadowprimezero:
Unsurprisingly, looks like Armenia lost the war.
well that didn't take long..... And one also has to consider that in terms of equipment they were pretty even

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