FOLYKAZE:


Adoration simply me deep love, strong admiration, respect and devotion to/for something and someone.

Reverence is deep respect.

How do you show love and respect one without acknowledging the worth of that person? The act of showing love to something is equivalent to acknowledging the worth. When you adore, respect and show much love to someone, you are worshipping it.

Note, I didnt say simply acknowledgment but acknowledgment of worth of something.

And Yes, Africans worship Idols. Just like Christians worship God through Jesus

Coool then we are of the same agreement
Hope macof can read and understand this as well

Though I don't know your stand about religion. Are African idol worshippers religious?

Reyginus:
No. Institution? Where please? You are redefining it for him? Someone says Religion is a set of dogmas relating to the divine and he accepts that his faith fits into these two but it's not Religion. Is this logic only within ATR members?

You always prove that you are a mischievous person.

This is macof words.

"""I don't like to see African Traditional Religion as Religion at all, people call it religion having western ideas in mind
in Yoruba only recently did people start saying "esin ibile" - native religion
but it's wrong. .. It is Isese or Aborisha - Which is best translated as "Yoruba elements of spirituality" or " veneration of Orisa""""

He said religion is
"""an institution of dogmas relating to the Divine"""

No Aborisha or adherent of Yoruba spirituality sees Orisha system as a religion. I have argued this for years but you are bent to twist and see things the way you want.

He also defined religion as an institution. . . .

Treat the issue from there.

dblackninja:

Coool then we are of the same agreement
Hope macof can read and understand this as well

Though I don't know your stand about religion. Are African idol worshippers religious?

A religion is an institution which tends to bind man and God together by setting out some rule, codes, ethics, tradtion, doctrine and dogmas in an effort to bring man and God closely.

Aborisha are not religious. They are more spiritual but not religious.

FOLYKAZE:


A religion is an institution which tends to bind man and God together by setting out some rule, codes, ethics, tradtion, doctrine and dogmas in an effort to bring man and God closely.

Aborisha are not religious. They are more spiritual but not religious.

Yeah people can come together to form a system of worship and it's called a religious organisation.
See what Google has to say about religion:

re·li·gion
rəˈlijən/
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More
a particular system of faith and worship.
plural noun: religions
"the world's great religions"
a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
"consumerism is the new religion"

Which tallies with that of my dictionary:
--The belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power, especially a personal god or gods.
--Any practice that someone or some group is seriously devoted to.

I don't know who Aborishas are or of their activities. Maybe they are elders of a society or law makers in a kingdom...but I know who babalawos are, called dibias in my region. They and their followers worship idols...Are they religious??

dblackninja:

Yeah people can come together to form a system of worship and it's called a religious organisation.
See what Google has to say about religion:

re·li·gion
rəˈlijən/
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More
a particular system of faith and worship.
plural noun: religions
"the world's great religions"
a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
"consumerism is the new religion"

Which tallies with that of my dictionary:
--The belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power, especially a personal god or gods.
--Any practice that someone or some group is seriously devoted to.

I don't know who Aborishas are or of their activities. Maybe they are elders of a society or law makers in a kingdom...but I know who babalawos are, called dibias in my region. They and their followers worship idols...Are they religious??

Aborisha and Babalawo is almost the same.

They are not religious.

FOLYKAZE:


Aborisha and Babalawo is almost the same.

They are not religious.

Okay.
What happens to the definition of Google which I quoted before and also that from the dictionary saying that religion means:

▪The belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power, especially a personal god or gods.
▪ Any practice that someone or some group is seriously devoted to.

Are babalawos/Aborishas not practing that thing above?

dblackninja:

Very funny guy
Poor defence for a claim anyway.

if you choose to keep to what you've always believed despite all efforts to enlighten you. .not my fault

Reyginus:
What's this? In what way? Your definition says Religion is a set of dogmas relating to the divine. Belief is a dogma and you accept your faith relates with the divine. What else can it be?

Belief is not dogma. A dogma is a belief. ..please spot the difference.


faith? wtf has any of this got to do with faith?

dblackninja:




I don't know who Aborishas are or of their activities. Maybe they are elders of a society or law makers in a kingdom...but I know who babalawos are, called dibias in my region. They and their followers worship idols...Are they religious??

you don't know something, you know you are ignorant yet you argue about what you don't know...smh. ..is it not craziness? or what do you think?

I doubt you know babalawos or even dibias. ..I'm sure what you think you know is what nollywood and churches tell you

dblackninja:

Okay.
What happens to the definition of Google which I quoted before and also that from the dictionary saying that religion means:

▪The belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power, especially a personal god or gods.
▪ Any practice that someone or some group is seriously devoted to.

Are babalawos/Aborishas not practing that thing above?

to the first: No!

the second: that is when religion is made out of African elements of spirituality like Isese, but Aborisha/Isese is not about serious devotion in itself, it's about appreciation of nature and self identity
it is from that point that the words "religiosity, religiously etc come from

when you understand the word "religiosity" you might understand all I've been saying as well

macof:


you don't know something, you know you are ignorant yet you argue about what you don't know...smh. ..is it not craziness? or what do you think?

I doubt you know babalawos or even dibias. ..I'm sure what you think you know is what nollywood and churches tell you

This is what happens when someone sees everything written in the religion section as an argument to be won.

Please defer from using that sort of line because it actually doesn't help..be it in a debate/argument, discussion, meeting, etc.
I have used that, can still use it and I can tell you that ad hominems just leads to a superiority complex, nothing more.

This brings me to what my bible told me. You can NEVER win an argument. How? Let's see:

--Shutting someone up in argument doesn't indicate a win. For where!, the argument actually ended up with each of you feeling even more convinced than ever that you're absolutely right. It's just your mind that gives you the elavated position.

--Convincing someone, to the point of agreeing with you on the subject as well gives a pseudo win.
How can you actually win someone who agrees with you

I am a dibia on my own, doubt at your peril

macof:


to the first: No!

Hmmm! Okay let's use your second

the second: that is when religion is made out of African elements of spirituality like Isese, but Aborisha/Isese is not about serious devotion in itself, it's about appreciation of nature and self identity
it is from that point that the words "religiosity, religiously etc come from

when you understand the word "religiosity" you might understand all I've been saying as well

Did you actually see where someone is written in that definition or do you just see religion as an organised something (like an organized crime).
This is where our problem actually lies because you don't see an individual as being religious but only some group of people with same belief. Please read those definitions again.

Now to the Aborishas, I don't know whether you also relate it as being similar to babalawos/dibias like FOLYKAZE said, because if you do, and still tell me that they not serious about devotion, then you're being insincere and I don't know where we're heading.
Unless your own definition is different..if it is then state it, if not then we can wave this topic goodbye.

dblackninja:

Okay.
What happens to the definition of Google which I quoted before and also that from the dictionary saying that religion means:

▪The belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power, especially a personal god or gods.

This can aslo be said for spirituality. The fence is positioned at the point where the sense of supernaturals become organised and institution created out of it.

dblackninja:

▪ Any practice that someone or some group is seriously devoted to.

Is football viewing a religion? I have friends who are devoted to Barcelona. Some are die hard fan of Rolando. Does that make them a religious person?

This definition is incomplete.

dblackninja:

Are babalawos/Aborishas not practing that thing above?

There is no clear cut with that definition. So I cant answer you for now.

FOLYKAZE:


This can aslo be said for spirituality. The fence is positioned at the point where the sense of supernaturals become organised and institution created out of it.

The problem once again is just seeing religion as an institution or an organized something (like Islam and co.)--while the dictionary (which I believe we're using as an authority) made mention of personal god(s) and someone It isn't only when something is organised that it becomes a religion, just like it isn't only when a crime is organised that it becomes a crime.
We can still go back to the definition of religion.

Is football viewing a religion? I have friends who are devoted to Barcelona. Some are die hard fan of Rolando. Does that make them a religious person?

This definition is incomplete.

It is as complete as it can be. As far as devotion is there, then it becomes a religion. There're lots of sayings to buttress that. Haven't you heard of this statement: Football is our religion ?

There is no clear cut with that definition. So I cant answer you for now.

I believe that I have shown that the definition is quite clear above. Now are dibias/babalawos, who are devoted to their oracle and idols, religious?

dblackninja:

Hmmm! Okay let's use your second



Did you actually see where someone is written in that definition or do you just see religion as an organised something (like an organized crime).
This is where our problem actually lies because you don't see an individual as being religious but only some group of people with same belief. Please read those definitions again.

Now to the Aborishas, I don't know whether you also relate it as being similar to babalawos/dibias like FOLYKAZE said, because if you do, and still tell me that they not serious about devotion, then you're being insincere and I don't know where we're heading.
Unless your own definition is different..if it is then state it, if not then we can wave this topic goodbye.

mr. im done with you... you have admitted you dont know this very topic we are discussing. so even if Im wrong theres no way i would take lectures from you on a topic you dont know a thing about

dblackninja:

This is what happens when someone sees everything written in the religion section as an argument to be won.

Please defer from using that sort of line because it actually doesn't help..be it in a debate/argument, discussion, meeting, etc.
I have used that, can still use it and I can tell you that ad hominems just leads to a superiority complex, nothing more.

This brings me to what my bible told me. You can NEVER win an argument. How? Let's see:

--Shutting someone up in argument doesn't indicate a win. For where!, the argument actually ended up with each of you feeling even more convinced than ever that you're absolutely right. It's just your mind that gives you the elavated position.

--Convincing someone, to the point of agreeing with you on the subject as well gives a pseudo win.
How can you actually win someone who agrees with you

I am a dibia on my own, doubt at your peril

i dont argue to win. i argue to learn and teach. you dont know yet you dont want to know, so why should i waste my time?

Food Is Good, But…

http:///articles/food-good/

macof:



mr. im done with you... you have admitted you dont know this very topic we are discussing. so even if Im wrong theres no way i would take lectures from you on a topic you dont know a thing about

Very funny guy
Resorting to ad hominem again #smh
Very funny for someone who claims he argues to learn and teach.

dblackninja:

Very funny guy
Resorting to ad hominem again #smh
Very funny for someone who claims he argues to learn and teach.

na you sabi...i wasn't trying to be funny. when you choose to hold on to your perception even after admitting ignorance what again is there to discuss?

dblackninja:


The problem once again is just seeing religion as an institution or an organized something (like Islam and co.)--while the dictionary (which I believe we're using as an authority) made mention of personal god(s) and someone It isn't only when something is organised that it becomes a religion, just like it isn't only when a crime is organised that it becomes a crime.
We can still go back to the definition of religion.

There is the angle you are not seeing it from. There is a personal God but the personality of this god is composed/made up by the founder of the religion. Religion just like every institution has a founder, aim and features. I can not just worship any random thing. Religion creates a personality for a figure and will wish such figure is being worshipped.

The act of worshipping Jehovh makes me a Christian. Because without christianity which is an institution, there is no Jehovah.

I become a muslim when I start worshipping Allah. There is no Allah outside Islam. The fasting, five times prayer and facing of Mecca came into light because there is an institution set aside for principle and standard of getting closer to Allah.

Though, I might choose to worship Jehovah alone. That does not make me a spiritual person because I am creating my own standard from an organisation.
Therefore, in religion, you cannot remove the institution.

This is why another dictionary define religion as an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

dblackninja:

It is as complete as it can be. As far as devotion is there, then it becomes a religion. There're lots of sayings to buttress that. Haven't you heard of this statement: Football is our religion ?

Money is also the God of this age.

But your definition contrast with this submission.

Rolando could be an Idol but not a supernatural entity.

Money could be God but not a supernatural controling power.

Economics self is a religion. You can google buddhist economics.

dblackninja:

I believe that I have shown that the definition is quite clear above. Now are dibias/babalawos, who are devoted to their oracle and idols, religious?

On a first thought, your definition have lot of loopholes and lack real substances.

When you are a christian, you are answering to christianity. What religion does a babalawo or dibia answers to?

macof:


Belief is not dogma. A dogma is a belief. ..please spot the difference.


faith? wtf has any of this got to do with faith?

Lololol. Ignorance is a disease. Is this the new definition of dogma? Lol.

FOLYKAZE:


You always prove that you are a mischievous person.

This is macof words.

"""I don't like to see African Traditional Religion as Religion at all, people call it religion having western ideas in mind
in Yoruba only recently did people start saying "esin ibile" - native religion
but it's wrong. .. It is Isese or Aborisha - Which is best translated as "Yoruba elements of spirituality" or " veneration of Orisa""""

He said religion is
"""an institution of dogmas relating to the Divine"""

No Aborisha or adherent of Yoruba spirituality sees Orisha system as a religion. I have argued this for years but you are bent to twist and see things the way you want.

He also defined religion as an institution. . . .

Treat the issue from there.

Another illogical piece of beautiful nonsense. The question simply is, if he accepts that belief is a dogma and his Orisa relates to the divine then is his faith not Religious? Don't dodge this just a yes or no will do.

dblackninja:

Yeah people can come together to form a system of worship and it's called a religious organisation.
See what Google has to say about religion:

re·li·gion
rəˈlijən/
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More
a particular system of faith and worship.
plural noun: religions
"the world's great religions"
a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
"consumerism is the new religion"

Which tallies with that of my dictionary:
--The belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power, especially a personal god or gods.
--Any practice that someone or some group is seriously devoted to.

I don't know who Aborishas are or of their activities. Maybe they are elders of a society or law makers in a kingdom...but I know who babalawos are, called dibias in my region. They and their followers worship idols...Are they religious??

You'd be wasting your time if you keep coming cool or pretending they are making sense. Watch how he pulls a new Definition for Religion out of somewhere dark. It's just a Christian saying Christianity is a way of worship buy not a religion.

Reyginus:
Another illogical piece of beautiful nonsense. The question simply is, if he accepts that belief is a dogma and his Orisa relates to the divine then is his faith not Religious? Don't dodge this just a yes or no will do.

where did he accept that belief is dogma?

Reyginus:
You'd be wasting your time if you keep coming cool or pretending they are making sense. Watch how he pulls a new Definition for Religion out of somewhere dark. It's just a Christian saying Christianity is a way of worship buy not a religion.

You want me to eat your crap without analyzing it. We are not dummies who accept doctrines without proper evaluation.

His definition is not making any sense as football can also be turned to a form of religion. There are lot of loopholes and do not contain appropriate substance.

Come up with sound argument and forcing your own crap down people throat

FOLYKAZE:


There is the angle you are not seeing it from. There is a personal God but the personality of this god is composed/made up by the founder of the religion. Religion just like every institution has a founder, aim and features. I can not just worship any random thing.

This is why another dictionary define religion as an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

I'll like to know that dictionary of yours and know wether that is all it has to say about religion. Look at the images below and relate to them.

On a first thought, your definition have lot of loopholes and lack real substances.

When you are a christian, you are answering to christianity. What religion does a babalawo or dibia answers to?

A dibia/babalawo answers to his idol. The belief in and worship of that his deity is his religion.

I believe once we're able to solve what religion means, then all our problems are solved.
Is Google lying by giving that definition of religion?
Is religion all about an organized institution and anything outside an institution not religious? Or are google and all other dictionary I know of right about their definition??

Reyginus:
You'd be wasting your time if you keep coming cool or pretending they are making sense. Watch how he pulls a new Definition for Religion out of somewhere dark. It's just a Christian saying Christianity is a way of worship buy not a religion.

Hahaha my brother, just trying to follow them step by step chaa..but once it begins to go in circles, that's when I pull out.

At least we have ascertain that Africans worship idols and have cancelled the claim that Africans (those invovled) don't worship it.

Reyginus:
Lololol. Ignorance is a disease. Is this the new definition of dogma? Lol.

you are the ignoramus here

try to be willing to learn something new

dblackninja:

Hahaha my brother, just trying to follow them step by step chaa..but once it begins to go in circles, that's when I pull out.

At least we have ascertain that Africans worship idols and have cancelled the claim that Africans (those invovled) don't worship it.

do you worship the Nigerian flag?

macof:


do you worship the Nigerian flag?

Me? Hell no!

FOLYKAZE:


where did he accept that belief is dogma?

I don't know for the guy o

he keeps saying I said belief is dogma even after correcting him 2 times

some people just allow vain pride lead them to reject knowledge. .. what is the big deal about Taking time to research the concept of religion hence learning a new thing? instead of arguing blindly with someone who has