Syncan:

Honestly, I feel like I detect sarcasm in your post above, however I want to take your last sentence as true and just respond.I do not claim to be an authority in any of the subjects I stated,I rather referred to the Catholic Church and her teachings, that's why I study and submit to it when it comes to issues like this. for those more knowledgeable than me on the issues have done the hard work already and still does in debates. Now on Abortion, your stand is practically same with the church and I noted this earlier. With respect to contraceptives,one point.Essentially, God has designed marital love to be both unitive(Gen2:18 ) and procreative(Gen1:28 ); to suppress or to violate either one contradicts the design of God.Nevertheless, we have witnessed the proliferation of the use of artificial birth control in particular. What has consequently evolved in society is a contraceptive mentality, the removal of conjugal love from the Sacrament of Marriage, and in many cases especially outside the context of marriage the reduction of conjugal love to simply a sex act without genuine love. Pope John Paul 11 adds that "Sexuality too is depersonalized and exploited: from being the sign, place, and language of love, that is, of the gift of self and acceptance of another, in all the other's richness as a person, it increasingly becomes the occasion and instrument for self-assertion and the selfish satisfaction of personal desires and instincts. Thus, the original import of human sexuality is distorted and falsified, and the two meanings, unitive and procreative, inherent in the very nature of the conjugal act, are artificially separated: in this way, the marriage union is betrayed and its fruitfulness is subjected to the caprice of the couple. Procreation then becomes the 'enemy' to be avoided in sexual activity...".

i apologize if i sounded sarcastic in any way, but honestly u sound like the pope. was this a latin article translated to english? sounds really formal like u r quoting some constitution. i am asking for your views, and not that of the pope.

^^^

When you ask the opinion of a Catholic on a religious matter, your are essentially asking for the opinion of the Catholic Church.

There is no room for personal opinion except where the Church has no definitive teaching.

That is what it means when we say "I BELIEVE IN ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH" every Sunday.

If he had a differing opinion, he wouldnt be Catholic.

italo: ^^^

When you ask the opinion of a Catholic on a religious matter, your are essentially asking for the opinion of the Catholic Church.

There is no room for personal opinion except where the Church has no definitive teaching.

That is what it means when we say "I BELIEVE IN ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH" every Sunday.

If he had a differing opinion, he wouldnt be Catholic.

Translation: We Catholics are all sheep. The oddly dressed old guy in Italy tells us what to think, and we all obey like zombies.

If any one of us tries to use his own brain, he wouldn't be a true Catholic.

^^^

Satan will fight tooth and nail against God's Church and anyone else who is doing the will of God...like fighting for the right to life for the humans in the womb.

Loskee:

i apologize if i sounded sarcastic in any way, but honestly u sound like the pope. was this a latin article translated to english? sounds really formal like u r quoting some constitution. i am asking for your views, and not that of the pope.

The church's faith precedes, supports and nourishes our faith. The church is the mother of all believers. No one can have God as a Father who does not have the church as the Mother.
"I BELIEVE" (apostolic creed) is the church, our mother, responding to God by faith as she teaches we catholics to say both "i believe" and "we believe". We Don't air our personal views on Matters like this, except if the church has nothing to say on it like my brother ^^^ said. Dats what makes us unique. Your General overseer's view on this topic might not tally with your pastor's views, same applies to other worshipers views. Little wonder why you Guys don't talk about this in church as it will certainly lead to division in your church. We ask of Faith from God's church, and "faith" offers us "eternal life", The catholic church teaches with authority, without fear of favour. she doesn't speak from both sides of the mouth that makes her a sure banker of true Faith. Do u get my drift

This is a dumb topic.
why do you think Jesus prevented the "holier than thous" from stoning the adulterer?
Just because something is bad doesn't mean that you have a right to judge or persecute others for it. Leave that to the state government. The church should not be involved in promoting such matters. we were instructed very clearly not to JUDGE. christianity is about following God's instructions and encouraging others to salvation. Jesus did not say we have a right to ban abortion or ban condoms or ban this and that. God gave us free will for a reason. It is up to each individual to use his/her free will to make the right decisions. All of us in this world are sinners.

I personally don't think abortion is a good thing. but people who do it should not be persecuted.
ex. I don't support alcohol drinking. but who am I to promote a law to ban alcohol drinking?
or ban condoms or ban tattoos. what ARE WE TURNING INTO A CATHOLIC SHARIA STATE?
what about adultery? should we make that illegal by law too?

the catholic church needs to realize that this is not middle ages anymore when the church was the government. Church is NOT a government anymore (except in Muslim countries where the government is religious= sharia). religion should be a personal matter and the problem with the catholic church is that it sees itself as an authority over the world. who can blame them when they have a pope that is treated like a president so of course he will act like one and start imposing dumb laws like banning condoms and abortion. wonder why they haven't banned alcohol or made adultery illegal. . of course they will stone the woman not the man. as usual. irrespective of religion, the woman is somehow always the casualty. ex witchcraft accusations, adultery, abortion etc it's always one-sided.


If I were ever to support a law to ban abortion, I will need to find a social reason for it and remove religious reasons. ex sending a thief to jail shouldn't have a religious reason. it is simply a social reason. We are not under sharia abeg.

Loskee:

i apologize if i sounded sarcastic in any way, but honestly u sound like the pope. was this a latin article translated to english? sounds really formal like u r quoting some constitution. i am asking for your views, and not that of the pope.

You actually put a smile on my face with this post of yours...sound like the Pope.... Without prejudice to what Italo and demerry submitted above, I think I made it clear in my post that I am no authority in the two courses. You see, Loskee, why will you want my Opinion on an Appendectomy debate when I am not a medical practitioner? Yet If i quote an authority in it, you will have to consider what I said. Same applies to this course as well, Your level of academic made me give it to you that way, I believe you understood the content, and that's what matters to me,the truth, not a mere debate between us.

]

99cent: This is a dumb topic.
why do you think Jesus prevented the "holier than thous" from stoning the adulterer?

We are not encouraging 'stoning.' Let satan not make you forget that Jesus told her: go and SIN NO MORE. We as citizens have the right to say to the government: do not ENCOURAGE THIS SIN...THIS MASSACRE...THIS GENOCIDE!

[quote author=99cent]

Just because something is bad doesn't mean that you have a right to judge or persecute others for it. Leave that to the state government. The church should not be involved in promoting such matters. we were instructed very clearly not to JUDGE. christianity is about following God's instructions and encouraging others to salvation. Jesus did not say we have a right to ban abortion or ban condoms or ban this and that. God gave us free will for a reason. It is up to each individual to use his/her free will to make the right decisions. All of us in this world are sinners.

You have forgotten that the Church is part of the government of the people, for the people and by the people. We are citizens too, not aliens. We have a right to voice our opposition.

99cent:

I personally don't think abortion is a good thing. but people who do it should not be persecuted.
ex. I don't support alcohol drinking. but who am I to promote a law to ban alcohol drinking?
or ban condoms or ban tattoos. what ARE WE TURNING INTO A CATHOLIC SHARIA STATE?
what about adultery? should we make that illegal by law too?

You are dishonestly making it to look like we are persecuting people who kill their babies. We persecute no one. The persecution is being done by those killing millions of defenseless innocent babies.

What about murder? Would you like the state to make it legal because the Church is against it too?

99cent:

the catholic church needs to realize that this is not middle ages anymore when the church was the government. Church is NOT a government anymore (except in Muslim countries where the government is religious= sharia). religion should be a personal matter and the problem with the catholic church is that it sees itself as an authority over the world. who can blame them when they have a pope that is treated like a president so of course he will act like one and start imposing dumb laws like banning condoms and abortion. wonder why they haven't banned alcohol or made adultery illegal. . of course they will stone the woman not the man. as usual. irrespective of religion, the woman is somehow always the casualty. ex witchcraft accusations, adultery, abortion etc it's always one-sided.

If we could make adultery illegal, we will. It is illegal in many western countries and it is largely due to religious teaching.

We Catholic dont witch-haunt women. The Church views the mother that killed her child, the doctor that helped her do it, the father that consented, encouraged or even forced the woman to do it, every other person that contributed to it...in practically the same way

99cent:

If I were ever to support a law to ban abortion, I will need to find a social reason for it and remove religious reasons. ex sending a thief to jail shouldn't have a religious reason. it is simply a social reason. We are not under sharia abeg.

We did not get our right to live from the social arena or society...we got it from God. So God decides if babies have a right to life, not unstable men and women.

So the right thing to do is KILL the innocent human being, right.

Is it better than letting the mother endure the torture.

Abi?

Natasha,,:
I'm not in support of abortion but if its life threathening then am not against it and other exceptions like rape by a family member or the likes. like why should someone keep a baby that was concieved through rape by her dad?? that's just toture.

Chrisbenogor:
How is abortion evil?
The catholic church has till this day refused even accent to the use of proper contraceptives. I have no problem when you guys have an opinion on religious issues, but when common sense says otherwise then there has to be a problem.

Where is ur common sense now? Y go thru d process of being pregnant or getting 1 pregnant wit child when u don't want 2 care for d baby?? Say d truth, n don't loss common sense trying 2 justify foolishness n lead odas with lower common sense astray!!

italo:
You are dishonestly making it to look like we are persecuting people who kill their babies. We persecute no one. The persecution is being done by those killing millions of defenseless innocent babies.
What about murder? Would you like the state to make it legal because the Church is against it too?

Well then your statement is illogical.
if something is illegal, there has to be a punishment for an illegal act, otherwise, it can't be called illegal.
ex. murder is illegal and punishable by law (jail). what should we use to punish women who commit abortion?

murder of a person is illegal by state law. a fetus is not a person by state law.

If we could make adultery illegal, we will.

of course you would. In fact, why not go as far as make it illegal and punishable by law to miss church service on sunday? rubbish.
Jesus condemns people like you throughout his life teachings.
http://questions.org/attq/why-did-jesus-condemn-the-self-righteousness-of-the-pharisees/

It is illegal in many western countries and it is largely due to religious teaching.

You are crazy. Adultery is NOT illegal in ANY western country. you don't go to jail for cheating on your husband or wife.
Adultery is only illegal in muslim countries where govt is controlled by religious leaders. And only women are punished for it. again, most religions are biased and favor men over women. hence most "moral" punishments are targeted towards women and the poor. The hypocrisy is very blatant.

they condemn homosexuality yet many of their priests are closet pedophile homosexuals.

This is the main difference between catholic and protestant churches.
Protestant churches believe in the gospel and grace of Jesus Christ.

99cent: This is the main difference between catholic and protestant churches.
Protestant churches believe in the gospel and grace of Jesus Christ.

So the gospel and grace of Jesus christ asks you to kill innocent children? Abeg tell me something.

99cent:

Well then your statement is illogical.
if something is illegal, there has to be a punishment for an illegal act, otherwise, it can't be called illegal.
ex. murder is illegal and punishable by law (jail). what should we use to punish women who commit abortion?

murder of a person is illegal by state law. a fetus is not a person by state law.

You're saying having a law against a crime is persecution of criminals?

So the whole world is persecuting murderers, robbers, rapists etc?

God determines who is human, not the state. If you insist the state does, you're saying Jews in Nazi Germany and the Blacks sold as slaves to America were sub-human as the state of the time said they were. But God sees Jews, blacks and unborn babies as human beings.

Listen to God:

"This is what the Lord says- He who made you, who formed you in the
womb, and who will help you" --Isaiah 44:2

"For You created my innermost being; You knit me together in my
mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully
made." --Psalm 139:13-14

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived
me." --Psalm 51:5

"Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from Him." --Psalm
127:3

"Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless...Rescue the weak and
needy." --Psalm 82:3-4

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5 (NIV)

"I have come that they may have life, and have it to the fullest." --Jesus
Christ (John 10:10)

"Rescue those being led away to death." --Proverbs 24:11 (NIV)

Talking about John the Baptist, "and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit
even from his mother's womb." --Luke 1:15(NIV) There is no record of the
Holy Spirit ever filling anything but a person.

"Before I was born the Lord called me..." "And now the Lord says-He
who formed me in the womb to be His servant..." --Isaiah 49:1,5

The apostle Paul says "But when God, who set me apart from my
mother's womb and called me by His grace..." --Galatians 1:15(NIV)

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from
her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as
the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges
determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..." -
-Exodus 21:22-25, King James Version.

"Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same
One form us both within our mothers?" --Job 31:15 (NIV)

"Cursed is he who accepts a bribe to strike down an innocent person." --
Deu 27:25 (NAS)

"..do not shed innocent blood..." --Jeremiah 7:6 (NIV)

99cent:

of course you would. In fact, why not go as far as make it illegal and punishable by law to miss church service on sunday? rubbish.
Jesus condemns people like you throughout his life teachings.
http://questions.org/attq/why-did-jesus-condemn-the-self-righteousness-of-the-pharisees/

Jesus condemned people who condemned sinners but he never condemned people who condemned sin.

We Catholics condemn abortion but not the perpertrators.

Stop trying to make good evil and evil good.

Are you saying Jesus didnt condemn murder?

99cent:

You are crazy. Adultery is NOT illegal in ANY western country. you don't go to jail for cheating on your husband or wife.
Adultery is only illegal in muslim countries where govt is controlled by religious leaders. And only women are punished for it. again, most religions are biased and favor men over women. hence most "moral" punishments are targeted towards women and the poor. The hypocrisy is very blatant.

Oh...maybe not in many but it is illegal in Switzerland, some US states, Taiwan, Korea and some other non-muslim countries. Even in countries where it is not illegal, it has serious negative legal consequences. It affects things like alimony, child-custody and support etc.

I think you might just be a bitter feminist. Are you aware that in India, only men can be prosecuted for adultery?

It is not only against women.

I dont know of many religions but Catholicism doesnt discriminate against women.

We adore them. Our undeniable love for the Blessed Mother is a pointer to that.

99cent:

they condemn homosexuality yet many of their priests are closet pedophile homosexuals.

Not "many" per se. A minute percentage of the 400000 priests in the world. You're just trying to smear Catholicism because of its defence of the child's right to life, arent you? I dont know why you suddenly decide to talk about homosexuality instead of abortion. But it wont work. God's Church will continue to stand for God's truth...you and satan's temper tantrums will do nothing to stop us. We stand against abortion and homosexuality...but we dont condemn the perpertrators...priest or not.

QUIT SATAN'S SIDE. STOP TRYING TO KILL GOD'S BELOVED CHILDREN.

99cent: This is the main difference between catholic and protestant churches.
Protestant churches believe in the gospel and grace of Jesus Christ.

No you dont believe his gospel and grace.

His gospel says: THOU SHALL NOT KILL!

So I learnt a new definition of humility which I think applies to this discussion.
"Humility is acknowledging/accepting the truth ans working/acting/reasoning in line with it"

My own summary of the issue follows
The "Truth" is that the Holy Mother Church believes that life starts at conception. The Church believes that all Human life is sacred. The Church also believes in the forgiveness of sins

Acting in line with this truth: The Holy Church strives to pursue for the preservation of such life. So She is anti-abortion, anti-euthanasia, anti-death sentence, anti-any action that involves the taking of a human life especially in a manner as violent and cold hearted as some of the above.
But the Church in her wisdom also realises that not everything is black and white. Some times there are grey areas like what if the life if the mother is threatened, (read Chukwudi44 post on previous page on this issue)
So why do we protest against this law, because such laws can be abused. Most people do not sin because of consequences, if they are sure they will not suffer the consequences the tendency to commit such actions is high. If I know I can procure an abortion easily, I may be tempted to commit fornication and adultery, if I decide I don't want any more kids instead of holding myself from sex during fertile period or applying birth control I will go ahead and have sex believing that I can abort safely after all. A couple with 3 girls will go for scan on the 4th pregnancy, see its a girl and abort it because they want a boy. Every example above is cold blooded murder as far as the Church is concerned. And let's be truthful 90% of abortions happen within such above spheres.
The Church has always called the faithful to partake in the sacrament of penance. No one will tell you to leave the church if you sin, rather you are advised to repent, go for confession, do your penance and resolve never to sin again (please that I write it like this doesn't mean it should be abused. If you do an unworthy confession you have not done a confession and that is a mortal sin)
As for the separation of state and church,if the state is going to pass laws that will be at odds with my Faith then I have every right to resist it. You may be surprised that due to the legalisation of abortion in some countries, doctors and nurses cannot say no to performing an abortion even if it goes against their conscience. If they say no they stand to loose their jobs and can even be sued! see what is happening with gay marriages in the USA.

The Catholic Church is made up of human beings who have human faults and reason like humans. Yes our priests have erred, the parishioners have mis behaved, we have not practised what we preached but the Church as body, the Bride of Christ on earth is holy and has the spirit of God resting on Her. This is an action only made possible by God having a Holy body made up of mere mortal men.

So depending on your background, what you hold as truth and how you defend it may defer from what we do.

Happy Sunday y'all