Goshen360: Many Christians are trying to practice the Old covenant along with the new not realizing the Old is null and void, Heb. 8:7-13. The Old covenant was between God and Israel alone but the New is between God and the church enforced by the blood of Christ. What the Old covenant couldn't accomplish is what Christ did and so, we refer to it as a better and finished works of Christ.

The Old Covenant is a revelation of God in the righteous requirement and standard of the law. Which was a conditional covenant. That is, one must do something for God to do another thing. The New Covenant is the revelation of God (from Christ to Apostle Paul and other Apostles) in the righteous Son who empowers those who believe and receive it to become adopted children of God was an unconditional covenant. The purpose of this new covenant is to do what the Old Covenant could not. The New Covenant is based on the shed blood which signed and sealed the covenant under the Mosaic covenant the shed blood of animals could only cover sins temporarily (Heb.8:27).

And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. Mark 14:24

The new covenant is NOT between God (through Christ) Israel alone but for MANY who believes. However, Christ as the mediator of this new covenant had to die in order to enforce the New Covenant and his death CHANGED EVERYTHING because of the finished works and this new covenant is operated by Grace. Hebrews 9:15-16.

to be continue . . .

defemz: Many Christians will never understand the full import of the work of salvation which was completed by the death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ.

In Africa and most specifically Nigeria today, the hope of a better life for many people on earth here has been cleverly pinned on tithe by clever pastors. What many Nigerian Christians do not know is that tithing was never a part of the new testament church, and that the issue of tithing in the new testament crept back into the doctrine in the 1800s(19th century) in America .

Today in Nigeria and other parts of Africa, economy is bad, people are largely disillusioned, the hope of many dashed. Pentecostal Christianity, a largely materialistic variance of christian faith delude already frustrated people, giving them a false hope of God's blessing if they sow, vow and pay tithes. But the problem with this arrangement is that across all the pentecostal congregations, the pastors promising blessings to tithers are usually the most 'blessed'.
The poor and gullible middle class continue to pay tithe of their meagre earnings and the pastors continued to grow richer. The question some of the Nigerian Christians should begin to ask themselves is, why is it that in a large christian congregation, only the pastor and his family buy big things like the private jet etc etc. I can say categorically among the Nigerian pentecostal Christians, 90% of those who have private jets are the pastors! The remaining 10% are the super rich who most of the time acquire their jets before even coming to the church.

The bible say my people perish for lack of knowledge. The salvation work that Jesus did transcend materialism which is the hallmark of the present day church. The master himself says seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all other thing shall be added unto you. He also said it is impossible to serve God and mammon(money). Christianity in its most popular flavour now has lost its taste, but I believe the Lord is still preserving the remnant.

The good Lord will open our eyes of understanding in Jesus name.

Bidam: Sorry had to comment on this.Thank God you changed it to tithe for christian thread before i could comment. Moreso i still maintain my stand that without the patriarchs we can't be perfected.It is just like you having two legs and one leg is cut off.Can you walk with one leg? of cos you will hobble but not walk. The patriarchs showed us the way of faith which was an example we should emulate and follow.Though they did not obtain the promise.We who received the promise of the FATHER(Holy Spirit) are much more in a better advantageous position to run the race and finish it than they.Whichever way you look at it,they are still waiting for us to be made perfect and without them we can't also be perfect.That is what Paul called ONE BODY AND Christ is the head of that BODY while God is the head of Christ. I explained that in the tithe tread,well if you see it as error na you sabi. Maybe you will understand with time.

Asper changing positions,it might do you a whole lot of good to understand a writers post before jumping to conclusions.Could you kindly show me where i changed positions? If you can't then i will label this as a false accusation. Stay blessed.

Candour:

Go through all your posts again if you will and you'll see those self contradictions

The last time you asked me to point them out, i did and you accused me of lacking a sense of humour so i wont waste time going to dig up anything

i only referenced the 'perfected' issue because it's very recent and sure you didn't deny it.

well the particular verse in Hebrew said they couldn't be perfected without us, pls don't add to it. Sure we are all in the family of God and you wont be wrong to say that but if it's on the basis of Heb 11:40, Joagbaje rightly corrected you.

pls let us drop this arguments as its not helping the thread.

Bidam: The onus is on you to point out the so called self contradictions don't you think? You made the allegations without substantial proof to back it up. Ok,why not show us where i said that?You are the one to dig the past na..And it was baseless cos it lacks merit,any good bible scholar can see that.
Joagbaje thought he was correcting me based on his understanding of that scripture.Like i said if you think say na error.na you sabi.You brought it up here not me.
You started it. I want to see it to it's logical conclusion or else you'll be labelled a liar here.
Thanks a lot brother.

Candour:



Hi Bidam, i refuse to take up the challenge. i repeat, the last time i did on OLAADEGBU's Tithe and offerings thread, you said i lack a sense of humour and i dont want you to attack my sense of humour again.

I've made my point. Joagbaje rightly corrected you. you can get him to recant, maybe he'll oblige you but for me, he was in order there.

Go ahead, label me a liar if you will It wont be a big deal

kunlejazz:
Generally, the Old testament is a shadow - a kind/semblance/similitude of the New. So if your shadow has a leg, it means you also do have a leg only that it is more real/tangible, hence, If tithes were paid in the OT, the NT will require something much more sacrificial than the tithe. Thus it is reasonable to make the tithe the reference/lowest level below which a practitioner of the NT may not go.

Bidam: oGA!!This is not about challenge but about unwarranted attacks on me which you and others have been guilty of on this forum since i don't buy your views on the tithe issue.And in this case i can rightly say you are guilty of 1 COR4 :5
Joagbaje did not say it in this thread, you did.
I am not the one calling you a liar.It is actually scriptures if you judge a christian wrongly.Even if it is on tithe issues.

Ihedinobi:
According to the Scripture you gave in Hebrews 8:9-13, the New Covenant goes thus: God Himself will put His Laws within our minds and write them upon our hearts and so forth. What Laws do you think He meant, dear brother?

debosky:

May I attempt this question brother?

The Laws are how we should live our lives in Christ, as we are taught by the Spirit. These Laws are not instructions which were given as a placeholder for Christ, but they will point at the same ultimate goal - drawing us closer to God.

If you focus on the particulars/specifics and miss the goal, you end up just following laws and not understanding what God really wants you to do.

kunlejazz:

Heb. 8:7 says For if the first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for the second

Goshen, a faulty vehicle is not the same as a write-off. The Old testament/covenant developed faults starting with Adam's fall, it is NOT a write-off. Many parts of the OT is still very relevant today, particularly the prophets (Isaiah through Malachi).
Don't forget, it is in the prophets that we find majority of the prophecies about the birth of Jesus and the dispensation of the Holy spirit (Isa. 9, Joel 2:28).

Generally, the Old testament is a shadow - a kind/semblance/similitude of the New. So if your shadow has a leg, it means you also do have a leg only that it is more real/tangible, hence, If tithes were paid in the OT, the NT will require something much more sacrificial than the tithe. Thus it is reasonable to make the tithe the reference/lowest level below which a practitioner of the NT may not go.

Goshen,
Human philosophy, brain knowledge of the bible and all the study in the world can never give us Revelation of God's Word because the letter kills but the spirit gives life. We can only achieve this by the help od the Holy spirit.
Just a passer-by
God bless you

debosky:

May I attempt this question brother?

The Laws are how we should live our lives in Christ, as we are taught by the Spirit. These Laws are not instructions which were given as a placeholder for Christ, but they will point at the same ultimate goal - drawing us closer to God.

If you focus on the particulars/specifics and miss the goal, you end up just following laws and not understanding what God really wants you to do.

sessydoo: I have followed every arguement on this topic with keen interest, its an eye-opener and very informative. I have always argued that the new covenant xtians are under the "law of giving" and NOT the "law of tithing" he that sows sparingly shall reap sparingly and he that giveth bountifully shall reap bountifully. Every man should sow according to his measure of grace n blessings not being cajoled that it is only when u give ur 10%, dat u will be blessed. However I understand many pastors have used the law of tithing to manage their resouces n income, God will help us. Meanwhile it is important to emphasize that tithe or no tithing, its just for your own benefit, that will not take any man to heaven. What will take xtians to heaven is their salvation, which we are all encouraged to work out with fear and trembling and holiness without which no man shall see God. It will be very nice if today's men of God (who have turned themselves to gods of men) can lay more emhpazy on this all-impotant truth, the way they emphasize tithing. The problem with the new breed of xtians is that they are too lazy to study the word of God themselves and so they swallow evry message from their GOs hook, line n sinker without checking with the scriptures. May God help us....shallom

Heb. 8:7 says For if the first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for the second

Goshen, a faulty vehicle is not the same as a write-off. The Old testament/covenant developed faults starting with Adam's fall, it is NOT a write-off. Many parts of the OT is still very relevant today, particularly the prophets (Isaiah through Malachi).
Don't forget, it is in the prophets that we find majority of the prophecies about the birth of Jesus and the dispensation of the Holy spirit (Isa. 9, Joel 2:28).

Ihedinobi:

Please feel free to address yourself to it, bro.

I feel that I understand your response but it may be that I'm taking some things for granted. So let me point out specific parts I need you to clarify.

1. When you say the Laws are [b]how[b] we should live, I get the impression that you mean clear laid-down patterns and traditions and methods that discriminate between adherents and non-adherents. That's because the word "law" enunciates a clear, unambiguous way of doing something rather than a vague, fluid, ambiguous response to the existence of a situation. Is my impression wrong?

2. When you say that these Laws are not instructions given as a placeholder for Christ, do you mean that they are not clear-cut, unambiguous ways of living or what exactly?

3. Are you saying that a focus on understanding the specifics of a journey, for instance, costs one the destination? That is, that a Christian's focus on the specific "instructions" or Laws, if you will, how to conduct their existence costs them the purpose of their salvation?

Please do not perceive my questions as traps, I beg you. I know that these discourses tend to be emotionally charged and rather explosive. I am a firm believer that underneath all the noise we all agree, so my questions are meant to dig through my possibly wrong conceptions of your response and get to what you really mean and see that I understand you properly.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14 13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

stillwater:

To your words in bold, I don't know if i'm getting you right, but I just want to say that Jesus has paid the SACRIFICE on the cross. There is no need to pay another sacrifice. That is a false doctrine if your intention is to say that we are to still make sacrifices to God. I believe that's a false doctrine. Read the following verses...

Candour:

the problem is that many Christians, not only in Nigeria are too lazy to read. Even on this forum, somebody told me Google and Wikipedia are trash so he doesn't read them.How do you expect such a person to know about the story of the modern church? It's there on the internet in an encyclopaedia of the catholic church that tithing only started in the christian church around 585AD but how will they know when their G.O's plagiarized books are their only read literature apart from their G.O's interpretation of the Bible?

A Christian says Jesus, Paul, Peter etc collected tithes.How can somebody who has read the books of Moses make such a statement? How can you not know that Christ, Paul, Peter would NEVER have touched the tithe even with a long pole because they were not from the tribe of Judah?



@the bolded, i challenge anybody to refute your statistics. Why does this gospel profit the preachers more than the laity? which priest or prophet was richer than the rich Isrealis in the bible?

atimes you have to wonder if the laity still do any thinking at all for themselves.i mean how can somebody be so blinded that he can't question why it's only the pastor who testifies as to receiving a gift of a new car? My mum was telling me my friend sowed 2 jeeps into his pastor's life and was encouraging me in that line. i asked her why she had not received even one steering wheel after spending more than 50 years as a Christian and sowing millions all along? every car she has ever driven, she bought or her children bought for her. sad to say the seed sower and his wife divorced some months after his 'dangerous seed' over some issues and you wonder why the seed didn't stop that particular devourer.



It was my understanding that 'i brought nothing into this world and i will carry nothing out' that finally broke the hold of the materialistic gospel on me. until we Christians realise that there is a better hope beyond this present life, we'll continue to be at the mercy of businessmen masquerading as pastors. By God's grace i'm blessed. i have all i could possibly need and i'm very grateful to God for it. I don't live in fear of an economic crisis because i believe God when he said he'll never leave me nor forsake me(Heb 13:5) so whatever happens, i always tell my sweetheart, God will provide surely meet our needs.



God bless you a trillion times for this post.Amen

kunlejazz:

Heb. 8:7 says For if the first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for the second

Goshen, a faulty vehicle is not the same as a write-off. The Old testament/covenant developed faults starting with Adam's fall, it is NOT a write-off. Many parts of the OT is still very relevant today, particularly the prophets (Isaiah through Malachi).
Don't forget, it is in the prophets that we find majority of the prophecies about the birth of Jesus and the dispensation of the Holy spirit (Isa. 9, Joel 2:28).

Generally, the Old testament is a shadow - a kind/semblance/similitude of the New. So if your shadow has a leg, it means you also do have a leg only that it is more real/tangible, hence, If tithes were paid in the OT, the NT will require something much more sacrificial than the tithe. Thus it is reasonable to make the tithe the reference/lowest level below which a practitioner of the NT may not go.

Goshen,
Human philosophy, brain knowledge of the bible and all the study in the world can never give us Revelation of God's Word because the letter kills but the spirit gives life. We can only achieve this by the help od the Holy spirit.
Just a passer-by
God bless you

Ihedinobi:

My beloved brother Goshen, grace be multiplied to you. As you have given to your brethren to nourish their hearts and help establish them in the Grace of God, so may it be done to you as well.

According to the Scripture you gave in Hebrews 8:9-13, the New Covenant goes thus: God Himself will put His Laws within our minds and write them upon our hearts and so forth. What Laws do you think He meant, dear brother?

Goshen360:

New Living Translation
He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant NOT OF WRITTEN LAWS, BUT OF THE SPIRIT. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Goshen360:
Simply, God is not repeating the laws given to Moses on tablets of stones into our hearts but the laws he was talking about is LAWS OF THE SPIRIT of life....IN CHRIST. That's why I teach, we are not under the laws of Moses BUT DOESN'T MEAN WE ARE LAWLESS, WE UNDER THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT.

Zikkyy:

My view:

The law written on our heart is not a list of dos and don'ts (e.g. the law of Moses), it is a nature. It is what we have become (as true Christians). What is written on our heart is not the list (of dos and don'ts) but the source of that list itself. It is more complete (it cannot be quantified) because they is always a natural reaction to every situation. When you live by a list, you will need to do some scanning to identify the specific part of the law you be contravening (or required) for any situation So, by saying the law of moses is abolished one is not saying the Christian is now lawless, he has taken up a nature from which the law was sourced.

The law (of moses) is like the traffic light at the junction (with camera and traffic police to ensure compliance and sanction offenders), it is there to ensure order and protection of lives and properties (for those that ordinarily will not stop or care about other road users). The man that is by nature disciplined and have respect/concern for life will by nature approach the junction with care/caution (with or without the traffic light/police). This was why Paul stated that the law is good (for maintaining law & order) and is meant for criminals (law breakers), but it is not for the righteous. Any man that respond to an external requirement (i.e. the law of moses) does so based on the belief that he will be sanctioned for non-compliance (or may not reap the benefit resulting from compliance).

Zikkyy:

My view:

The law written on our heart is not a list of dos and don'ts (e.g. the law of Moses), it is a nature. It is what we have become (as true Christians). What is written on our heart is not the list (of dos and don'ts) but the source of that list itself. It is more complete (it cannot be quantified) because they is always a natural reaction to every situation. When you live by a list, you will need to do some scanning to identify the specific part of the law you be contravening (or required) for any situation So, by saying the law of moses is abolished one is not saying the Christian is now lawless, he has taken up a nature from which the law was sourced.

The law (of moses) is like the traffic light at the junction (with camera and traffic police to ensure compliance and sanction offenders), it is there to ensure order and protection of lives and properties (for those that ordinarily will not stop or care about other road users). The man that is by nature disciplined and have respect/concern for life will by nature approach the junction with care/caution (with or without the traffic light/police). This was why Paul stated that the law is good (for maintaining law & order) and is meant for criminals (law breakers), but it is not for the righteous. Any man that respond to an external requirement (i.e. the law of moses) does so based on the belief that he will be sanctioned for non-compliance (or may not reap the benefit resulting from compliance).

Enigma:

Bravo bros! Exquisite.

Candour:

God bless you Zikky.

This is the shortest straight to the point explanation i have seen on this subject. Christ said all the law hangs on LOVE. He that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. I don't think there's anything more to add.

God bless you again brother

Thy nature, gracious Lord, impart;
Come quickly from above;
Write Thy new name upon my heart,
Thy new, best name of Love.

A heart resigned, submissive, meek,
My great Redeemer’s throne,
Where only Christ is heard to speak,
Where Jesus reigns alone.