plaetton:

Well, if you wan to deduce that since humans are self-aware and also part of the universe, therefore the universe is self-aware, you can logically say that, but means that you can also say that because Nigerians are know to be very corrupt, the entire landmass of Nigeria is also corrupt.

No doubts, there is consciousness in the universe, but it evolved from interactions of matter in the universe at a certain point in time.
Now, because consciousness is now present in the universe, the universe is no longer what it was. It is now more dynamic because the consciousness is now an active agent itself in the universe.

So, if consciousness is god, like some would believe, then god evolved in the universe just like everything else, and therefore did not create the universe, as most believe.

Dont you think this degrade your claim as 'pantheist atheist'?. Pantheist sees God as the totality of energies and forces that made up the universe.:

Also we cant say there is no corruption in the world. Nigeria has more corrupt institution compare to other nations. Corruption do not end in politics and it is everywhere. So applying that analogy to consciousness still goes for it.

ifeness:

Firstly about the brain: The brain is a physical object,the physical symbol that allows consciousness(non physical consciousness) to become physical mentality,or mind. Therefore the brain is only a tool used by consciousness to experience this physical reality. Without the brain consciousness does exist and will always exist. We are still very conscious after dead to the physical reality and are our true self when we stop experiencing this physical for. As a mater of fact, the physical reality is a dead -like state,a dream that when we wake up(die) we become more alive.

I heard about the leaf too. Just like our physical body, we sometimes need events that makes us full of life. The incarnation is about reconnecting the leaf with the electromagnetic field that made it conscious in the first place. That is on the path that Energy is needed for everything.

Thanks for your input Ife.

From your previous post, you stated that it is only 'EXPERIENCE' that exist and the rest physical thing in my environment is illusion.

Could this experience be the case of observing the sun. We think of the sun as being "over there" and we see it from here. But when you're seeing the sun, photons, a little bit of the sun are shooting millions of miles through space into the back of our eyeballs, setting off an electrical reaction with which the brain genuinely brilliant experience. From here, it cannot be deny that an experience is occurring but what we mostly know is that the reflection of sun is white while it originally in red or more other colours. Does it mean the brain subject consciousness or it other way round?


Lot of things are not just clear in yoruba spirituality. I agree that everything in the universe have energies. But I still dont get how something without ear or brain can yield to voice command. Maybe you can help on this too.

Lovetinz:

What do you mean there shouldn't be state of unconsciousness.
You want to reconfigure 'reality'?
Are you conscious or not?

From your previous post, you stated that inanimated objects are intelligent collection of atoms and energies. If the intelligent arrangement of this atom make it conscious, then I dont think there should be unconscious state.

This implies to dead bodies. Maybe you shed more light on dead person consciousness

*Kails*:


#deep.

it giving me headache.

FOLYKAZE:

From your previous post, you stated that inanimated objects are intelligent collection of atoms and energies. If the intelligent arrangement of this atom make it conscious, then I dont think there should be unconscious state.

This implies to dead bodies. Maybe you shed more light on dead person consciousness

What I mean by intelligent arrangement is They are Logically Arranged: protons, electrons etc.,
The arrangement doesn't confer intelligence, Intelligence dictates the arrangement.
The intelligence is inherited from the Universe (RE: Title of this thread)
I don't subscribe to anything being unconscious either.

Dead people are conscious in a way similar to the way i hear criminal that are being executed are first injected with a paralysing injection, before the lethal one. If the convict was blindfolded too, you can imagine his consciousness.

After 'death' he will learn to 'live' just as you learnt to live here with help from your sensory inputs and your processing brain.
in his new 'environment'.

Lovetinz:

What I mean by intelligent arrangement is They are Logically Arranged: protons, electrons etc.,
The arrangement doesn't confer intelligence, Intelligence dictates the arrangement.
The intelligence is inherited from the Universe (RE: Title of this thread)
I don't subscribe to anything being unconscious either.

As per the bold, we are on the same page.

Dead people are conscious in a way similar to the way i hear criminal that are being executed are first injected with a paralysing injection, before the lethal one. If the convict was blindfolded too, you can imagine his consciousness.

After 'death' he will learn to 'live' just as you learnt to live here with help from your sensory inputs and your processing brain.
in his new 'environment'.

Thanks about this too. At this junction, I will try to ask if our conscious a form of energy, and, as they say energy cannot be created or destroyed. Or is conscious a product of energy?

I've read some really interesting posts here.
However folks, I've got an observation.
I looked up the meaning of consciousness online (via merriam-webster dictionary) and here is what I found.

Full Definition of CONSCIOUSNESS
1
a : the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself
b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact
c : awareness; especially : concern for some social or political cause
2
: the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : mind
3
: the totality of conscious states of an individual
4
: the normal state of conscious life <regained consciousness>
5
: the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes

Is it me, or are you guys misinterpreting what consciousness means? I'm only asking innocently though.

I fully comprehend the angle of the discussion so my take on it is this:
I feel the entire universe is made up of an interaction of protons, electrons, bosons, positrons and the likes just as Lovetinz has earlier intimated. Everything that exists interacts with each other and in this vein, we can say that stones, flowers, sand, you, your red blood cell, a cadaver, Mount Everest are all embodiments of interacting vibrating particles hence they are 'active'. This is what I think the OP meant and if it is, then the Universe is as well (After all, it is still expanding as of yet)! Going by the definition of consciousness above, only sentient beings can be conscious!

Infomizer: I've read some really interesting posts here.
However folks, I've got an observation.
I looked up the meaning of consciousness online (via merriam-webster dictionary) and here is what I found.

Full Definition of CONSCIOUSNESS
1
a : the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself
b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact
c : awareness; especially : concern for some social or political cause
2
: the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : mind
3
: the totality of conscious states of an individual
4
: the normal state of conscious life <regained consciousness>
5
: the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes

Is it me, or are you guys misinterpreting what consciousness means? I'm only asking innocently though.

I fully comprehend the angle of the discussion so my take on it is this:
I feel the entire universe is made up of an interaction of protons, electrons, bosons, positrons and the likes just as Lovetinz has earlier intimated. Everything that exists interacts with each other and in this vein, we can say that stones, flowers, sand, you, your red blood cell, a cadaver, Mount Everest are all embodiments of interacting vibrating particles hence they are 'active'. This is what I think the OP meant and if it is, then the Universe is as well (After all, it is still expanding as of yet)! Going by the definition of consciousness above, only sentient beings can be conscious!

The Yoruba Spirituality and some eastern traditions like Hinduism and Buddhism would say that everything is conscious, whereas in the west we mostly see it as a matter of brain function. While I am hugely inclined to the western view the real problem is that we have no proper theory of consciousness from a physical basis and no real justification for our views at all.

The real answer to this of course is that no-one knows, so for those who have stated otherwise like plateon I will suggest to think more. The arguments will no doubt abound concerning what is 'really' meant by 'Conscious' - the 'merriam-webster dictionary' definition is perhaps not a good reference in this 'currently' hypothetical case.

FOLYKAZE:

The Yoruba Spirituality and some eastern traditions like Hinduism and Buddhism would say that everything is conscious, whereas in the west we mostly see it as a matter of brain function. While I am hugely inclined to the western view the real problem is that we have no proper theory of consciousness from a physical basis and no real justification for our views at all.

The real answer to this of course is that no-one knows, so for those who have stated otherwise like plateon I will suggest to think more. The arguments will no doubt abound concerning what is 'really' meant by 'Conscious' - the 'merriam-webster dictionary' definition is perhaps not a good reference in this 'currently' hypothetical case.

This is my logomachy.
Having said that, I think 'consciousness'(in the context of this discussion) has a theoretical basis in particle physics as well as in the theory of conservation of matter. What do you think?

Infomizer:
This is my logomachy.
Having said that, I think 'consciousness'(in the context of this discussion) has a theoretical basis in particle physics as well as in the theory of conservation of matter. What do you think?

Yes. As in if consciousness arise through complicated series of chemical reaction in our brain, and our stimuli is base on result of this reaction is our brain. Cant this reaction in a different process implies too with plant and stone? Actually, it is impossible to know whether other human beings are conscious. Because we feel conscious, we assume other people must be like us. But this can only be an inference.

FOLYKAZE:

Thanks for your input Ife.

From your previous post, you stated that it is only 'EXPERIENCE' that exist and the rest physical thing in my environment is illusion.

Could this experience be the case of observing the sun. We think of the sun as being "over there" and we see it from here. But when you're seeing the sun, photons, a little bit of the sun are shooting millions of miles through space into the back of our eyeballs, setting off an electrical reaction with which the brain genuinely brilliant experience. From here, it cannot be deny that an experience is occurring but what we mostly know is that the reflection of sun is white while it originally in red or more other colours. Does it mean the brain subject consciousness or it other way round?


Lot of things are not just clear in yoruba spirituality. I agree that everything in the universe have energies. But I still dont get how something without ear or brain can yield to voice command. Maybe you can help on this too.

Yes Experience within Existence/Consciousness. The Sun,Moon,Stars that we see, including fellow humans are all experiences within Existence. The brain which is an antenna for consciousness interprets matter in an infinite numbers of ways. So i guess you are right, the sun is beings interpreted by the brain in a way it help with vision during the day.

The yorubas spirituality is fascinating to me too. ELEDUMARE or Olodumare means the unifying Energy and it follows the law of conservation which says: Energy could neither nor destroyed. It can only shift from one form to another( which we all are). The first transformation is the Ori (consciousness),the Orishas :The 4001 gods are symbols of different energies. They were personified to enhance better understanding. Example shongo symbolises illumination and courage, Obatala symbolises wisdom and maturity,oshun symbolises the nurturing energy.

Over the years people have forgotten that Eshu is only an energy within everyone of us. They curse and abuse it without knowing it means the choice between good and evil. Eshu symbolises a cross road basically.

The next transformation is the plant and animal,then humans. Yoruba cosmology support evolution in a lot of sense,only that they are more aware and have a better understanding of nature than Darwin.

I must say this is one of the best thread i have experienced on a Nairaland. A thread where people think for themselves without references. Keep it up guys!

FOLYKAZE:

Yes. As in if consciousness arise through complicated series of chemical reaction in our brain, and our stimuli is base on result of this reaction is our brain. Cant this reaction in a different process implies too with plant and stone? Actually, it is impossible to know whether other human beings are conscious. Because we feel conscious, we assume other people must be like us. But this can only be an inference.

I disagree.
Consciousness is not a result of those interactions. The opposite is true.
Those interactions are trying to adapt to the present (in these case, earthly) demands of consciousness.

ifeness:

Yes Experience within Existence/Consciousness. The Sun,Moon,Stars that we see, including fellow humans are all experiences within Existence. The brain which is an antenna for consciousness interprets matter in an infinite numbers of ways. So i guess you are right, the sun is beings interpreted by the brain in a way it help with vision during the day.

The yorubas spirituality is fascinating to me too. ELEDUMARE or Olodumare means the unifying Energy and it follows the law of conservation which says: Energy could neither nor destroyed. It can only shift from one form to another( which we all are). The first transformation is the Ori (consciousness),the Orishas :The 4001 gods are symbols of different energies. They were personified to enhance better understanding. Example shongo symbolises illumination and courage, Obatala symbolises wisdom and maturity,oshun symbolises the nurturing energy.

Over the years people have forgotten that Eshu is only an energy within everyone of us. They curse and abuse it without knowing it means the choice between good and evil. Eshu symbolises a cross road basically.

The next transformation is the plant and animal,then humans. Yoruba cosmology support evolution in a lot of sense,only that they are more aware and have a better understanding of nature than Darwin.

Bravo.

Lets go a little further on consciousness. Can we further say that consciousness exist outside the brain? And permit me to use this analogy, radio frequency is there wide within space and time so there is apparatus for detecting it and processing of this frequency by the radio translate this signal through some form to understandable combination of sounds and audible for human. From my analogy, could radio frequency mean consciousness.....radio signal apparatus or radio mean brain.....and the processed sound or audio mean perceives......is my analogy correct? Since the brain is the antenna that interpret 'experience within existence', how does inanimate object possess and process consciousness without brain or any sensory organ?
I agree the element that made living organism is still the same with non-living matters.....so using the radio frequency here, it only shows that this inanimate objects are expose to consciousness but are not active with it. Im I wrong?



I am an atheist. I have been trying to explain Yoruba spirituality to my pals but seem they are viewing things from religion perspection. Ifa to me is more like buddha and it explain alot about our physical world and other realm. I understand that our ancestors explain things through their level of understanding and personifing of our Energies makes most people lost direction where the philosophy is heading.
Eledumare is infinite consciousness, totality of energies and forces.

Ori is consciousness.....sa mean 'to select'. So orisa should mean selected consciousness.

I get another perspective concerning Ogun, Sango, Eshu and other likes.
Eshu to me is intuition
Sango to me is Electrical energy or force
Ogun literally Iron.

I deduce this from there oriki and Odu in Ifa.

I believe if those intelligent scientist in Africa can decode spirituality and philosophy......we will surely take over civilization. The worse is just that people are running away from it thinking it about devil and monsters.

ifeness: I must say this is one of the best thread i have experienced on a Nairaland. A thread where people think for themselves without references. Keep it up guys!

I was forced to open this thread since my atheist pals are barking at me because I embrace spirituality.

Non of them show up here.

Lovetinz:

I disagree.
Consciousness is not a result of those interactions. The opposite is true.
Those interactions are trying to adapt to the present (in these case, earthly) demands of consciousness.

Thanks for the correction.

Im arguing base on his definition from the dictionary. If he stated that only sensory and animate object can be conscious and also be aware of there environment through experience. Then the job is chemical reaction in the brain.

Let me ask you......is consciousness a form of energy or energy itself?

FOLYKAZE:

Yes. As in if consciousness arise through complicated series of chemical reaction in our brain, and our stimuli is base on result of this reaction is our brain. Cant this reaction in a different process implies too with plant and stone?

You imply that 'consciousness' in the sense of this thread sure results in 'consciousness' in the dictionary sense and I agree with that. However, the reason it does not apply to stones and plants is the same reason why our culinary preferences are different from those of anthropods.

Actually, it is impossible to know whether other human beings are conscious. Because we feel conscious, we assume other people must be like us. But this can only be an inference.

Impossible? I don't get it!

Lovetinz:

I disagree.
Consciousness is not a result of those interactions. The opposite is true.
Those interactions are trying to adapt to the present (in these case, earthly) demands of consciousness.

Archetypal chicken or egg scenario. Or don't you think so?

FOLYKAZE can you please recommend some books on yoruba mysticism and spirituality so that i can get a grasp of what it really entails. I must say there is a gross misconception about what it really is, thanks to movies. I have never seen these gods in the light you paint 'em on nairaland.

Infomizer: FOLYKAZE can you please recommend some books on yoruba mysticism and spirituality so that i can get a grasp of what it really entails. I must say there is a gross misconception about what it really is, thanks to movies. I have never seen these gods in the light you paint 'em on nairaland.

Firstly, note that nollywood is just anti-spirituality. They depict spirituality as evil and western beliefs as good. Also lot of concept were not explain vividly. It movie that completely delude us to think witch are flying human, Eshu is devil and Eledumare is anthropomorphic being living in the sky. Well it completely wrong. You can check about spirituality here

Get some books written by Wande Abimbola

- Ijinle Ohun Enu Ifa Apa Kini and Apa Keji

- “Secrecy and Objectivity in the Methodology of Ifa Divination”, (with Barry Hallen), inSe crecy: African Art that Conceals and Reaveals, Museum of African Art, New York, 1993.

- Ifa: An Exposition of Ifa Literary Corpus (Oxford University Press, Ibadan, 1977).

- Awon Oju Odu Mereerindinlogun (University Press Limited, Ibadan, 1977).

Infomizer:
You imply that 'consciousness' in the sense of this thread sure results in 'consciousness' in the dictionary sense and I agree with that. However, the reason it does not apply to stones and plants is the same reason why our culinary preferences are different from those of anthropods.

Do you agree inanimated objects have some form of consciousness and are alive? How?

Yes. Everything is conscious. The problem we are having is that we are defining their own consciousness based on our own. We don't know how they express their consciousness but it is there. How do I know? Because everything reacts to something. I am reacting to this thread because I am conscious of it. My typing on my keyboard is my own way of expressing this consciousness. A stone hit with a hammer reacts. A piece of paper but inside a bottle reacts; may even change colour to express this reaction. This is what I call being conscious. It is very different from being alive or being able to think.

Alfa Seltzer: Yes. Everything is conscious. The problem we are having is that we are defining their own consciousness based on our own. We don't know how they express their consciousness but it is there. How do I know? Because everything reacts to something. I am reacting to this thread because I am conscious of it. My typing on my keyboard is my own way of expressing this consciousness. A stone hit with a hammer reacts. A piece of paper but inside a bottle reacts; may even change colour to express this reaction. This is what I call being conscious. It is very different from being alive or being able to think.

Hmmm. Satan indeed is knowledge. Lol.

This is the angle I drive to. To me, Conscious mean react and alive mean active.

But let me ask. if conscious means reaction, then there shouldn't be anything like unconsciousness....no?

FOLYKAZE:


Bravo.

Lets go a little further on consciousness. Can we further say that consciousness exist outside the brain? And permit me to use this analogy, radio frequency is there wide within space and time so there is apparatus for detecting it and processing of this frequency by the radio translate this signal through some form to understandable combination of sounds and audible for human. From my analogy, could radio frequency mean consciousness.....radio signal apparatus or radio mean brain.....and the processed sound or audio mean perceives......is my analogy correct? Since the brain is the antenna that interpret 'experience within existence', how does inanimate object possess and process consciousness without brain or any sensory organ?
I agree the element that made living organism is still the same with non-living matters.....so using the radio frequency here, it only shows that this inanimate objects are expose to consciousness but are not active with it. Im I wrong?



I am an atheist. I have been trying to explain Yoruba spirituality to my pals but seem they are viewing things from religion perspection. Ifa to me is more like buddha and it explain alot about our physical world and other realm. I understand that our ancestors explain things through their level of understanding and personifing of our Energies makes most people lost direction where the philosophy is heading.
Eledumare is infinite consciousness, totality of energies and forces.

Ori is consciousness.....sa mean 'to select'. So orisa should mean selected consciousness.

I get another perspective concerning Ogun, Sango, Eshu and other likes.
Eshu to me is intuition
Sango to me is Electrical energy or force
Ogun literally Iron.

I deduce this from there oriki and Odu in Ifa.

I believe if those intelligent scientist in Africa can decode spirituality and philosophy......we will surely take over civilization. The worse is just that people are running away from it thinking it about devil and monsters.

Yes you are right on the radio waves analogy. The brain is similar to a remote control(inanimate) . Inanimate objects like robots can be active when batteries(which contains energy) are inserted into them.The human heart can in some cases be on a battery support,due to lack of energy flow. That is why the Hindu tradition encourages Yoga; which helps with the free flow of energy in the body. Cars are also a typical example...in the nearest future,cars will be able to move without the support of humans and there goes man(creators) creatively creating once again.

Looking at the amount of knowledge hidden in the African traditions,i have not doubt they once ruled the world. Alexandra the not-so-great had to live in the ancient Egyptian Library in order to accumulate so much knowledge. I learnt a bit of Ifa from my African American friend. He is very good at explaining them.

FOLYKAZE:

Firstly, note that nollywood is just anti-spirituality. They depict spirituality as evil and western beliefs as good. Also lot of concept were not explain vividly. It movie that completely delude us to think witch are flying human, Eshu is devil and Eledumare is anthropomorphic being living in the sky. Well it completely wrong. You can check about spirituality here

Get some books written by Wande Abimbola

- Ijinle Ohun Enu Ifa Apa Kini and Apa Keji

- “Secrecy and Objectivity in the Methodology of Ifa Divination”, (with Barry Hallen), inSe crecy: African Art that Conceals and Reaveals, Museum of African Art, New York, 1993.

- Ifa: An Exposition of Ifa Literary Corpus (Oxford University Press, Ibadan, 1977).

- Awon Oju Odu Mereerindinlogun (University Press Limited, Ibadan, 1977).

Thanks a million bro. You have really educated me on the subject matter. It is indeed an eye opener. I'll do my own readings though. Can you recommend any bookshop in particular?

FOLYKAZE:

Do you agree inanimated objects have some form of consciousness and are alive? How?

They are not alive (hence the term, inanimate). Nevertheless, they are active just as Alfa Seltzer averred as they contain particles that are in constant motion. To answer your question about unconsciousness, I'll say no. It is just a state of the observer not being able to discern the 'conscious' state of the observed. A corpse is thus not 'unconscious' because it is continuously interacting with the environment at the sub-atomic level. It is not alive, but active!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgBY15KSnmo

This link will help to get an articulate explanation of the yoruba cosmology.

ifeness:

Yes you are right on the radio waves analogy. The brain is similar to a remote control(inanimate) . Inanimate objects like robots can be active when batteries(which contains energy) are inserted into them.The human heart can in some cases be on a battery support,due to lack of energy flow. That is why the Hindu tradition encourages Yoga; which helps with the free flow of energy in the body. Cars are also a typical example...in the nearest future,cars will be able to move without the support of humans and there goes man(creators) creatively creating once again.

Looking at the amount of knowledge hidden in the African traditions,i have not doubt they once ruled the world. Alexandra the not-so-great had to live in the ancient Egyptian Library in order to accumulate so much knowledge. I learnt a bit of Ifa from my African American friend. He is very good at explaining them.

Erm.....what can you say about consciousness as 'reaction' as Alfa explain it?


I was inspired last year when I meant one African American in Osun festival. She is damn brilliant in Ifa divination. We had lot of discussion and was made to know that im empty vessel. She ignited my spirit which made me research again.
I see African in diaspora as knowledgeable folks. We at home are completely brainwashed

Infomizer:
Thanks a million bro. You have really educated me on the subject matter. It is indeed an eye opener. I'll do my own readings though. Can you recommend any bookshop in particular?

Anywhere in Lagos or Ibadan or on amazon. Though I prefer you buy from store comparing the price

Infomizer:
They are not alive (hence the term, inanimate). Nevertheless, they are active just as Alfa Seltzer averred as they contain particles that are in constant motion. To answer your question about unconsciousness, I'll say no. It is just a state of the observer not being able to discern the 'conscious' state of the observed. A corpse is thus not 'unconscious' because it is continuously interacting with the environment at the sub-atomic level. It is not alive, but active!

I cant say anymore. This is Epic. Thanks for sparing your time and energy on this thread

FOLYKAZE:

Hmmm. Satan indeed is knowledge. Lol.

This is the angle I drive to. To me, Conscious mean react and alive mean active.

But let me ask. if conscious means reaction, then there shouldn't be anything like unconsciousness....no?

Of course there is unconsciousness. You can only be conscious of that which affects you. At the same time you are unconscious of the rest. Take this example of someone that is knocked "unconscious". In that state, his whole being stops being aware of the environment around him meaning he is unconscious of it and doesn't react to it. But if you beam an MRI in his brain and prod him with a stick, you can see some electric reactions in the brain showing that there is a consciousness which as I said before is "alien" to our current understanding of it. So even though parts of him are still conscious of and react, to us he is very unconscious.

To make my self clear, the whole person is differenciated from parts of him. I.e, the whole is unconscious but individual parts have varying levels and types of consciousness.

Alfa Seltzer:

Of course there is unconsciousness. You can only be conscious of that which affects you. At the same time you are unconscious of the rest. Take this example of someone that is knocked "unconscious". In that state, his whole being stops being aware of the environment around him meaning he is unconscious of it and doesn't react to it. But if you beam an MRI in his brain and prod him with a stick, you can see some electric reactions in the brain showing that there is a consciousness which as I said before is "alien" to our current understanding of it. So even though parts of him are still conscious of and react, to us he is very unconscious.

To make my self clear, the whole person is differenciated from parts of him. I.e, the whole is unconscious but individual parts have varying levels and types of consciousness.

Lets take for example when snake is dead. At this point, the system breaks down. But on it body, there will be some form of reaction on it skin when the sun shine on it. Also there are form of movements in it body due to some chemical reactions. Can we say this is consciousness as in the form of reaction?