. . .Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us -Hebrews 9:12

The word "redemption" as used in our opening scripture is from the Greek, "lutrōsis," which means to ransom, deliver, save, or bring out of trouble. The Lord Jesus redeemed man from sin at the cross, and His blood became the currency with which He paid for the sins of the whole world. Then He was buried, and on the third day, God raised Him from the dead with a new life. Now, He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him.

Observe that the new creation is not the redeemed; he’s the fruit of Christ’s redemptive work on the Cross. Some people get confused when they study portions of the Scripture, where the new creation is described as "redeemed." For instance, in Revelations 5:9, the Bible says,

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

The word, "redeemed" is wrongly translated here; it’s from the Greek, ‘agorazo,’ which means to go to the market and make a purchase; to buy something as a gift to give to someone. It’s not a buy-back, as is the case with "lutrōsis," but a fresh purchase. Christ purchased us with His blood, and gave us as gifts to God.

Several translations actually give a proper rendering of that verse. The New International Version says,

"... with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."

The Living Bible says,

"…for you were slain, and your blood has bought people from every nation as gifts for God."

You’re a gift, purchased for God by Jesus; He bought you with a price. This isn’t "lutrōsis"; this is "agorazo"; it’s a fresh purchase. Now, you belong to God. You’re not the person that was "delivered" from the devil when Jesus died on the cross; you’re a new creature, never delivered from the devil, but born superior to him by the second birth.

Quite interesting. I'll like to learn more. So, could you clarify one more thing: Who did Jesus purchase us from - who was selling us and received the purchase price?

Romans 5:8-11

Amplified Bible (AMP)

8 But God shows and clearly proves His [own] love for us by the fact that while we were still sinners, Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for us.

9 Therefore, since we are now justified ([a]acquitted, made righteous, and brought into right relationship with God) by Christ’s blood, how much more [certain is it that] we shall be saved by Him from the indignation and wrath of God.

10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, it is much more [certain], now that we are reconciled, that we shall be saved [b](daily delivered from sin’s dominion) [/b]through His [[b]resurrection] life.

11 Not only so, but we also rejoice and exultingly glory in God [in His love and perfection] through our Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom we have now received and enjoy [our] reconciliation.

The LAMB was slain before God created MAN...so why the funny question@nlmediator

nlMediator: Quite interesting. I'll like to learn more. So, could you clarify one more thing: Who did Jesus purchase us from - who was selling us and received the purchase price?

Fantastic question......the episode seem like a trade involving a buyer and a seller. Christ/God seem to be the buyer, who could possibly be the seller?

shdemidemi:

Fantastic question......the episode seem like a trade involving a buyer and a seller. Christ/God seem to be the buyer, who could possibly be the seller?

lol brethren on here are sooo interesting...

shdemidemi:

Fantastic question......the episode seem like a trade involving a buyer and a seller. Christ/God seem to be the buyer, who could possibly be the seller?

There is no seller..Adam sold himself into SIN and fell short of God's glory. The right question is why would Christ die for the ungodly?

Bidam: There is no seller..Adam sold himself into SIN and fell short of God's glory. The right question is why would Christ die for the ungodly?

For there to be a purchase, there has to be a seller and a buyer. For there to be a ransome, there must be an exchange. you give something to ransome someone or another thing and when you give, somebody must receive so the question is very valid.

I'm interested in this teaching as well as i need to clear up somethings i might be confused about.

[size=32pt]

1 Corinthians 6:20

New International Version
you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

New Living Translation
for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body.

English Standard Version
for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

New American Standard Bible
For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

King James Bible
For ye are bought with a price: [/b]therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
[b] for you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God in your body.

International Standard Version
because you were bought for a price. Therefore, glorify God with your bodies.

NET Bible
For you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For you have been bought with a price ; be glorifying God with your body and with your spirit, which are God's.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
You were bought for a price. So bring glory to God in the way you use your body.[/size]

[size=32pt]

1 Corinthians 7:23

You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.

New Living Translation
God paid a high price for you, so don't be enslaved by the world.

English Standard Version
You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

New American Standard Bible
You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

King James Bible
Ye are bought with a price; [/b]be not ye the servants of men.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
[b]You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. [/size]

nlMediator: Quite interesting. I'll like to learn more. So, could you clarify one more thing: Who did Jesus purchase us from - who was selling us and received the purchase price?

[size=16pt] Ye are bought with a price; rather, ye were bought, namely, by Christ; and the price paid for you was his blood (see 1 Corinthians 6:20; 1 Peter 1:18, 19).[/size]


by his blood he paid the price of redemption of man after man fell to Satan through adaam

[size=16pt]

Hebrews 9:12
New International Version
He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

New Living Translation
With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves-- he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

English Standard Version
he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. [/size]

if u dont get it, i will be back.....make i climb altar do yookos segment for church.

i hope u wanna learn and not what others are fund of doing in regards ridiculing the word of GOD

Thanks candour for the clarification..I agree we have been bought with a price and I also believe there are two slave masters namely "sin" or rather the very 'root of sin' (the devil) and righteousness (Christ)'.

Romans 6
But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

From my understanding, I believe the price was paid to our old master (devil) so he can't lay a claim on us forever for we are now under a new master.

shdemidemi: Thanks candour for the clarification..I agree we have been bought with a price and I also believe there are two slave masters namely "sin" (the devil) and righteousness (Christ)'.

Romans 6
But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

From my understanding, I believe the price was paid to our old master (devil) so he can't lay a claim on us forever cos we are under a new master.

The bolded is my belief and understanding too. I would like to learn if there exists another interpretation anyway

cheers bro

^^
Why should you say/think/believe Jesus paid d Devil? How does that sound in your ear?
even after the bible said this in Col 2v15 NLT

15 In this way, [size=16pt] he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.
[/size]

Did the above look like it happened on a negotiating table? It was a War. A battle

We were in debt to God! God gave Adam authority and dominion over ALL things on earth (Genesis 1). Adam sold out to the Devil in that he obeyed the Devils instruction and thus the Devil had the authority of Adam. He had that Adamic authority and dominion over all the earth including the power over death. Adam fell and death came. Since then all man born into earth is in debt to God because of Adam.

But thank God I'm born again...thank God Jesus gave him self up...he went down to hell as a man, defeated the devil as a man, collected the Adamic authority including the power over Death also as a man. When he resurrected from death, the first thing he said
was

"ALL HAIL! " Matt 28v9...I love Jesus. No one spoke like him...he said "Hail me"!

And in verse 18 he said

Matthew 28:18 KJV
King James Version
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying , All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

That's what my Jesus did for us. He paid a high price with his blood, therefore purchasing us from our debt to him self and giving back to us not just the authority the devil stole for Adam, but also gave us the God-life through the Holyspirit. Hallelujah

Its important we know this.

Who then is a Redeemer?

The redeemer is the person who pays the ransom for the debtor. Throughout church history it has been continually accepted that Jesus is our Redeemer, though there has been widespread debate as to whom Jesus paid our debt to.

What is a Ransom?

The ransom is the price that must be paid to God for our debt. The problem, however, is that Scripture plainly says that no human being can redeem the life of another person by paying their ransom to God because only God can accomplish such a feat (Ps. 49:7-15).

So, because Jesus is both God and man, He alone is able to pay the price for our ransom through His sinless life and substitutionary death (1 Peter 1:18-19).



Pls...Jesus did not pay devil anything..For goodness sakes!
We were indebted to God and since we could never never pay back (because Scripture plainly says that no human being can redeem the life of another person by paying their ransom to God because only God can accomplish such a feat (Ps. 49:7-15).), and because He so loved the world of man he gave his son Jesus as a sacrifice to pay the price we couldn't have ever paid!

Gloooooooooray!
I dey church...be right back by 12pm

^^^^bro, I think we can trace this topic back to the book of Genesis. God chased mankind from the garden into darkness (eastward). The devil became the ruler of the world and from the way I see it mankind moved from one level of evil into a higher level. I believe Jesus came to restore us back into the garden ( this time spiritual Eden).

shdemidemi: ^^^^bro, I think we can trace this topic back to the book of Genesis. God chased mankind from the garden into darkness (eastward). The devil became the ruler of the world and from the way I see it mankind moved from one level of evil into a higher level. I believe Jesus came to restore us back into the garden ( this time spiritual Eden).

what garden?
we have come to Mount zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...hebrews 12v22 not a garden!

Spiritual Eden? where did u get that from? is zion same as "Spiritual Eden"? do u have scripture to back this up?

anyways sha, the point of my post is that Jesus didnt pay the devil anything. we were indebted to God.


i dey meeting now.....brb

Gombs:

what garden?
we have come to Mount zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...hebrews 12v22 not a garden!

Spiritual Eden? where did u get that from? is zion same as "Spiritual Eden"? do u have scripture to back this up?

anyways sha, the point of my post is that Jesus didnt pay the devil anything. we were indebted to God.


i dey meeting now.....brb

You need to slow down a bit because you're not making any sense on this thread. Looks like you're adding a new dimension by saying redemption does not even involve satan. Christians believe Jesus redeemed us from our former master (satan and sin). The Op says after redemption, Jesus purchased us. The simple question is: who did Jesus purchase us from? If you don't know the answer, you can just keep quiet so we can all learn from the Op.

Candour:

For there to be a purchase, there has to be a seller and a buyer. For there to be a ransome, there must be an exchange. you give something to ransome someone or another thing and when you give, somebody must receive so the question is very valid.

I'm interested in this teaching as well as i need to clear up somethings i might be confused about.

Correct. The issue here is not even whether Adam sold himself to sin. But who Jesus purchased us from. As the Op acknowledges, christians all these years have believed that they're redeemed. But the Op is suggesting that is incorrect; that we are a new purchase while at the same time accepting that we have been redeemed. This is the picture I'm getting: Jesus died and through His death and resurrection, we were redeemed. For Him to make a new purchase, it means either we're never redeemed by what He did or after redemption, we're in a new slavery. At that point, Jesus made another purchase. But even this second purchase wouldn't be new as OP interprets new, it'd be second redemption. For it to be a fresh purchase, we had to be free and Jesus then bought us, as opposed to buying us back (redemption).

That's what I need clarification on. Simply put: what did Jesus' blood accomplish: redemption, purchase, neither or both?

Psl 49
7 None of them can by any means redeem [either himself or] his brother,[size=16pt] nor give to God a ransom for him[/size]—
8 For the ransom of a life is too costly, and [the price one can pay] can never suffice—



Jesus paid our debt...he paid it all the debt we owe God due to Adam's err,


the question u should ask is Who were we indebted to or what was it Jesus paid for? not who he purchased us from...were we put up for sale before?

nlMediator: Quite interesting. I'll like to learn more. So, could you clarify one more thing: Who did Jesus purchase us from - who was selling us and received the purchase price?

Jesus paid the price to apease Gods demand of justice on our behalf.

I'm confused.

An0nimus: I'm confused.

God Laws are eternal.He doesn't change them that was why when satan sinned he fell under the judgmental wrath of God. He deceived Eve hence the fall of Adam which caused chaos in creation.Serpent was cursed,Eve was cursed on childbearing.The ground was cursed for Adam. That is the judgement we are talking about.

The buyout clause for man to escape this judgement was for a righteous and sinless man to shed His blood.Since no one except God is holy and righteous,He has to send His WORD as a Son to die for the sins of mankind. That is the purchase we are referring to.

Bidam: God Laws are eternal.He doesn't change them that was why when satan sinned he fell under the judgmental wrath of God. He deceived Eve hence the fall of Adam which caused chaos in creation.Serpent was cursed,Eve was cursed on childbearing.The ground was cursed for Adam. That is the judgement we are talking about.

The buyout clause for man to escape this judgement was for a righteous and sinless man to shed His blood.Since no one except God is holy and righteous,He has to send His WORD as a Son to die for the sins of mankind. That is the purchase we are referring to.

It seems to me like you did not read the original post. What you described above is redemption. The Op says christians are not redeemed. There was a purchase after redemption, and that's where christians belong. Nobody so far has been able to provide even a decent explanation of this second transaction. For it to be clear, we need to know who the parties to this transaction are. You can't have a purchase without a seller and purchaser.

Joagbaje:

Jesus paid the price to apease Gods demand of justice on our behalf.

But that's what christians call redemption. Your original post dismisses that and asserts there is a transaction after that called a fresh purchase. Did Jesus redeem us with His blood or not? If He did, where does a fresh purchase come in? There cannot be a fresh purchase if we were slaves and Jesus died to rescue us from slavery. Fresh purchase makes sense only if we were free at the time of purchase. Otherwise, Jesus would be purchasing what another person (satan) has a legitimate claim to. E.g., I am owing the bank for the car I am driving. If I pay to get the title back, that's redemption. There can be no fresh purchase of the car until I have paid off the loan. On the other hand, if you say that satan had no claim to humanity before the purchase, that defeats the whole point of Jesus paying any price.

Gombs: Psl 49
7 None of them can by any means redeem [either himself or] his brother,[size=16pt] nor give to God a ransom for him[/size]—
8 For the ransom of a life is too costly, and [the price one can pay] can never suffice—



Jesus paid our debt...he paid it all the debt we owe God due to Adam's err,


the question u should ask is Who were we indebted to or what was it Jesus paid for? not who he purchased us from...were we put up for sale before?

Did you read the original post. It's the one that uses the word "purchase" so you're querrying the issue of who he purchased us from and asking if we were ever put up for sale makes me wonder if you are following this topic at all. Second, you suggest that Jesus redeemed us from God, not satan? Even if for the sake of argument we accept that as truth, where does the fresh purchase that the Op spoke of come in? So, after paying the price to redeem us, he paid another price to purchase us afresh? And purchased us from whom this time? These are simple questions and I'm surprised I cannot get a coherent answer.

nlMediator:

It seems to me like you did not read the original post. What you described above is redemption. The Op says christians are not redeemed. There was a purchase after redemption, and that's where christians belong. Nobody so far has been able to provide even a decent explanation of this second transaction. For it to be clear, we need to know who the parties to this transaction are. You can't have a purchase without a seller and purchaser.

I did.My understanding of his post was the spirit of Man is redeemed but the soul and the body is yet to be redeemed.That is why your flesh still remains the "old man" despite the fact that you re a new creature. It takes a gradual renewing of your mind by the word of God for a change to occur to your soul that stage is maturity. Perfection arises when you become completely Like Christ.

No Christian i know has attained that complete and absolute perfection yet.

A christian can be oppressed by the devil in areas he/she has no light/revelation concerning the Word of God.

A Christian can not be possessed because of the new birth experience.

We are all walking towards that perfection until Christ return for a bride without spot nor wrinkle

It is a process bro..exagorazo is a process.

While both exagorazo and lutroo are translated "to redeem," exagorazo does not signify the actual "redemption," but the price paid with a view to it, lutroo signifies the actual "deliverance," the setting at liberty.

^^^

I think you have a different understanding of the post from the rest of us. Please read it again. The post said it is wrong to see the christian as the redeemed. You're saying the christian is the redeemed, but only his spirit part is redeemed. The Op never said that nor would the Op agree with you. That's the point. Since there is a disagreement with traditional christian belief on this, further clarification would help.

nlMediator: ^^^

I think you have a different understanding of the post from the rest of us. Please read it again. The post said it is wrong to see the christian as the redeemed. You're saying the christian is the redeemed, but only his spirit part is redeemed. The Op never said that nor would the Op agree with you. That's the point. Since there is a disagreement with traditional christian belief on this, further clarification would help.

Ok.The Op will be in better position to explain his post. I stand aside.

Bidam: Ok.The Op will be in better position to explain his post. I stand aside.

about time.

I don't see joagbaje providing a solution, and it's simply because he is not capable of providing one. His role or only responsibility on matters of this nature is to promote his pastor's teachings, the pastor does the explaining. only person that can attempt to explain the op is Chris oyak, and I don't see him coming here.

nlMediator:

Did you read the original post. It's the one that uses the word "purchase" so you're querrying the issue of who he purchased us from and asking if we were ever put up for sale makes me wonder if you are following this topic at all. Second, you suggest that Jesus redeemed us from God, not satan? Even if for the sake of argument we accept that as truth, where does the fresh purchase that the Op spoke of come in? So, after paying the price to redeem us, he paid another price to purchase us afresh? And purchased us from whom this time? These are simple questions and I'm surprised I cannot get a coherent answer.

You obviously wanna argue...if you still don't get it, ask God for the holy spirit to aid you, or you wait when we get to heaven.

nlMediator:

It seems to me like you did not read the original post. What you described above is redemption. The Op says christians are not redeemed. There was a purchase after redemption, and that's where christians belong. Nobody so far has been able to provide even a decent explanation of this second transaction. For it to be clear, we need to know who the parties to this transaction are. You can't have a purchase without a seller and purchaser.

The OP didn't say the above in bold...go and read the post again...He said

"Observe that the new creation is not the redeemed; [size=16pt] he’s the fruit of Christ’s redemptive work on the Cross."
[/size]

Where did you see a second transaction in the OP? Even after you saw this?

"The word, "redeemed" is wrongly translated here (Rev 5v9) ; it’s from the Greek, ‘agorazo,’ which means to go to the market and make a purchase; to buy something as a
gift to give to someone. [size=16pt] It’s not a buy-back, as is the case with "lutrōsis," but a fresh purchase. [/size] Christ purchased us with His blood, and gave us as gifts to God. "



I told you you just wanna argue

Zikkyy: I don't see joagbaje providing a solution, and it's simply because he is not capable of providing one. His role or only responsibility on matters of this nature is to promote his pastor's teachings, the pastor does the explaining. only person that can attempt to explain the op is Chris oyak, and I don't see him coming here.

Pastor Chris is a very fine teacher who delivers the Word with masterful clarity. Perhaps, because this message is short, it is not very clear. I'm hoping the Op and other CE members can present us with a fuller version of the message, which probably tackles the issue in greater detail and answers the pertienent questions.