Al-Baqir:


Lol! Lol! Different kind of people on this forum.

Let me give you a saying of Imam Ali (a.s):

"The mouth of a wise is in his heart while the heart of a fool is in his mouth"

Heart here depict centre of intelligence.

by this your statement, you have just proven to me that you lost your senses the day choose to thread the part of shiits.

kaybyte: by this your statement, you have just proven to me that you lost your senses the day choose to thread the part of shiits.

Imam Ali (a.s) continues:

"Silence sometimes is the best reply for a fool"

Al-Baqir:


Imam Ali (a.s) continues:

"Silence sometimes is the best reply for a fool"

better, remain silent so as not to feed people with your junky stuff.

Al-Baqir:


That's the reason I laid emphasis on... WITH TAFSIR and TA'WIL to each ayah! Unless you want me to rephrase my english. Like adding Tafsir + Ta'wil to a compiled Qur'an.
No soul could ever claim the tafsir and ta'wil of each ayah was ever written as the holy Qur'an was been written down. That was the task the holy prophet gave to his ahl al-bayt. That's why he (saws) said:

"I leave amongst you two weighty things...book of God and my ahl al-bayt..."

"Ali is with the Qur'an and the Qur'an is with Ali..."

Can't you see how brilliant Abdullah Ibn Abbas was? He was among the best scholar and Mufassir of the Ummah. You know what? He studied under Ali Ibn Abi Talib and was his Shi'a.

Well sunni never hold such believe. Your believe is Uthman got the job done while somebody in the person of Mu'awiyah who accepted Islam 2years to the death of Rasul was giving the post of "scribe of revelation".



You feel that? Lol.
Muhammad (saws) completed his task as the best prophet of God; hence, Allah says: "Today I have perfected your religion for you..."

i dont even understand this and maybe thats because you havent answered my question which is : who compiled the quran as a whole. the standadisation of it

babylolaroy:
: who compiled the quran as a whole.

Ahlusunna are of the opinion Qur'an was compiled by Uthman with the assist of certain sahaba almost 2decades after the life-time of the prophet.

Shi'a are of the opinion the holy Qur'an was compiled during the lifetime of the prophet (saw); hence, the use of the word "Book of God (kitabAllah)" in his last statement "I leave amongst you two weighty things, Book of God and my ahl al-bayt.."
Then Umar's reply to the prophet at his death-bed "...asbunah kitabullah (book of God is enough)".

babylolaroy:
the standadisation of it

Ahlu sunnah believe there were many versions of the Qur'an: the same content but different arrangement of sura and ayah. Some arranged according to how each sura was revealed. Ahlu sunnah concluded Uthman unify all these versions into one as we have it today while he burnt other versions.

LagosShia: Mr.Vedaxcool,the person whose heart is pulled apart,the question isnt about whether Imam Sadeq (as) said Umar married an Umm Kulthum or not.the question is which Umm Kulthum? Was she the biological daughter of Imam Ali (as) or the adopted daughter that was the biological daughter of abu bakr,umar's greatest friend and accomplice?
.

A friend got me a copy of "Tahzib al Ismaa" of Yahya Ibn sharaf Nawawi, famous commentator of sahih Muslim and wonderfully he mentioned that the Ummul kulthum who married Umar was not bint Ali rather she was bint Abu Bakar.

Al-Baqir:

Ahlusunna are of the opinion Qur'an was compiled by Uthman with the assist of certain sahaba almost 2decades after the life-time of the prophet.

Shi'a are of the opinion the holy Qur'an was compiled during the lifetime of the prophet (saw); hence, the use of the word "Book of God (kitabAllah)" in his last statement "I leave amongst you two weighty things, Book of God and my ahl al-bayt.."
Then Umar's reply to the prophet at his death-bed "...asbunah kitabullah (book of God is enough)".



Ahlu sunnah believe there were many versions of the Qur'an: the same content but different arrangement of sura and ayah. Some arranged according to how each sura was revealed. Ahlu sunnah concluded Uthman unify all these versions into one as we have it today while he burnt other versions.

exactly my beliefs too aftarall ama sunni. so why did you mention Alli again in a couple of posts up here. you sed immam Alli compiled quran

babylolaroy:
exactly my beliefs too aftarall ama sunni.

This is not a matter of "ama sunni" and I need to eat whatever its being given to me. Its about common sense. You and I were not there to know the exact story but we've been given aql (intellect) to dissect the story given to us.

Sorry we don't believe in that Ahlu sunnah story that Uthman "standardize or compiled" Qur'an. What's the rationale that the receiver of the revelation (saws) left it scattered, un-arranged and un-compiled? Its absurd!

The absurdity was so much that they dare fabricate lies in the name of Uthman saying:

"...Al-Anfal was one of the earliest Surah’s reveled at Madinah while al-Tawbah was one of the largest, but their subject matter was very similar that he (the prophet) suspected they might be one Surah. The Prophet passed away without clarifying the matter, and so Uthman placed them next to each other without
separating them by the usual opening phrase,
and grouped them with the long Surah’s at the
beginning of the Qur’an.”

"Fi Zilal al-Qur’an" page 10 by Sayyid Qutb English
translation published by The Islamic Foundation (1st edition 1999).

As Qur'an is today, that's exactly how it was compiled and arranged during the time of the prophet under his guidance. Only for the fabricators whose intention was to score Uthman excellent mark cooked unfounded story as you we've been spoonfeed to believe today.

According to their story, Abu Bakar started with the compilation of the Qur'an after Umar strongly urged him severally to do so. But he couldn't finish that till he died. Abu bakar spent 2years as a khalifa.

Why was Umar left it unfinished during and throughout his 14+years of his khilafa judging by the manner in which he persuaded the 1st khalifa that Qur'an might lost if left un-compiled?

These are thought for those who have heart!

babylolaroy:
so why did you mention Alli again in a couple of posts up here. you sed immam Alli compiled quran

We believe under the guidance and instruction of the prophet (saws), Qur'an was compiled during his time and Ali Ibn Abi Talib whom Qur'an refer as "anfus (self)" of the prophet was the leader and trustee in the task. That's why the prophet (saws) said: "Ali is with Qur'an and the Qur'an is with Ali; the two shall never part till they meet me at the pool" (Muslim, Tirmizi, Hakim, suyuti).

A renown India Sunni scholar writes:

“Hadhrath Ali compiled the Qur’an during the
lifetime of the Prophet[saww] but Allah’s
taqdir prevented this from coming forward”.

"Izalatul Khifa", by Shah Waliyullah Vol. 4 p 497

Then Imam Ali (a.s) added Tafsir + Ta'wil of each ayah to the compiled Qur'an as dictated to him by his master, immediately after the demise of the prophet. Unfortunately when he (a.s) presented it to the 1st calipha, it was rejected. That's the reason Shi'a and Sunni have different Tafsir till today. Though there are some little agreement.

Salam

Salamu alaykum, see i can never argue with people who take joy in insulting the companions of the prophet saw. This guy( shia) have gone astray. Who told them they have the right to rain insult on this companions? They are among the worst humans ever lived if they dont repent. People the prophet saw did insult in his time, neither did Ali, abbas but they deem it fit to insult this companions who fought for islam. What have you done for islam baqir, lagos shai and all of you shai today compare to wht those companions did? Please close you blabber mouth and look for good place to sit and have your brains refreshed so that you can think as human(baqir and lagos shia).

kaybyte: Salamu alaykum, see i can never argue with people who take joy in insulting the companions of the prophet saw. This guy( shia) have gone astray. Who told them they have the right to rain insult on this companions? They are among the worst humans ever lived if they dont repent. People the prophet saw did insult in his time, neither did Ali, abbas but they deem it fit to insult this companions who fought for islam. What have you done for islam baqir, lagos shai and all of you shai today compare to wht those companions did? Please close you blabber mouth and look for good place to sit and have your brains refreshed so that you can think as human(baqir and lagos shia).

Kaybyte,
Can't you do the right thing for once? Are you sure you follow the teachings of Islam. I haven't see a comment from you except you either abuse, insult or make false claim. I gave u a quotation from the Qur'an hoping you will learn from it:

"Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good exhortation, and reason with them in the best way. Lo! Your Lord best knows those who astray from His path, and He knows best those who are rightly guided"~ Qur'an 16:125

Prophet (saws) is the best example for whoever claim to be his follower. He never abuse even if he's being insulted. He never attack until his lord ask him to do so in a self-defense manner.

If there's any issue alien to you or seem irritating to you from any Shi'a, the best way prescribed by the Qur'an is dialogue with open heart following rules mention above ^ from the Qur'an.

If you can behave like this to he who profess La illaha illah Allah Muhammad Rasulullah, I wonder what your attitude will be with he who denied the kalimatain.

And point of correction. Shia doesn't abuse or insult the righteous companions of the prophet. Only the Munafiq among them do we have issues with. It is the Sunni that hold a believe that ALL of them were righteous. A believe contrary to the Qur'an and authentic hadith.

Example of such sahaba:

1. Read the whole Chapter 9, sura Tawbah (e.g verse 101); sura al-Munafiq

2. 1. Ala b. Al-Musayyab narrated from his father, who said: "I met al-Bara'a ibn Azib and said to him: "You are fortunate, you were a companion of the prophet and paid allegiance to him under the tree".
Whereupon he said: "'My nephew, you do not know what we INNOVATED after him" (al-Bukhari vol. 5 p. 66)

Allah knew many of them will violate their oath; hence he warned:

"Those who paid allegiance to you in fact pay allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands. And WHOEVER VIOLATES that oath has done so against his own(self)~Q48:10"

Also prophet fore-told:

"On the day of resurrection you will be grabbed from the left, and I will say: 'where are they (being taken) to?' It will be said: "To Hell, by God. ' I will say: "my Lord! These are my companions'. It will be said: 'You
do not know what they did after you. From the time you left them they never ceased to apostatize. ' I will say: 'Away with him, away with him, woe to him who changed things after me. And I do not see anyone of them being saved except that he will be like a forlorn sheep".
(Sahih al-Bukhari vol. 7 p. 209, vol 4 p. 94, 156; Muslim vol. 7 p. 66).

3. What do you say to one who accused the holy prophet (saws) of madness (Yahjur) and prevented him from writing his last will that will keep you and I and all muslims away from straying and segregation?

4. What do you say to those among the companions who attempted to assassinate the holy prophet only for Allah to expose their plot?

5. What do you say to those ran away from various war leaving their prophet for dead in the midst of the enemies?

6. What do you say to those who left the holy prophet on the Minbar (during Salatul jum'a khutba) only to follow and join some groups who sells wordly goods and play music ( see the last verse of Sura Jumu'a)?

7. What do you say to those who threatened to burn Leader of all women of paradise, Fatima daughter of the prophet, alive in her house with her children and husband?

8. What do you say to those who wage war on he whom the prophet said:

"O Allah forsake him whoever forsake Ali..."
"O Allah turn the truth wherever Ali turns"
"Hatred of Ali is a sign of Munafiq and his love is a sign of a mu'min"

A war where hundreds of thousand muslim died. The first ever civil war.

9. What do you say to those who massacre the son of your prophet, Imam Hussain along his 72 companions some from the household of the prophet. He was butchered, maimed and his head was cut off, hanged with a spear while a mad orgy was being displayed. And the khalipha of the time saying:

"Where are my fore-fathers who muhammad killed at the battle of Badr, where are they to witness how I avenge their death from Muhammad".

Salam

Al-Baqir:


Kaybyte,
Can't you do the right thing for once? Are you sure you follow the teachings of Islam. I haven't see a comment from you except you either abuse, insult or make false claim. I gave u a quotation from the Qur'an hoping you will learn from it:

"Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good exhortation, and reason with them in the best way. Lo! Your Lord best knows those who astray from His path, and He knows best those who are rightly guided"~ Qur'an 16:125

Prophet (saws) is the best example for whoever claim to be his follower. He never abuse even if he's being insulted. He never attack until his lord ask him to do so in a self-defense manner.

If there's any issue alien to you or seem irritating to you from any Shi'a, the best way prescribed by the Qur'an is dialogue with open heart following rules mention above ^ from the Qur'an.

If you can behave like this to he who profess La illaha illah Allah Muhammad Rasulullah, I wonder what your attitude will be with he who denied the kalimatain.

And point of correction. Shia doesn't abuse or insult the righteous companions of the prophet. Only the Munafiq among them do we have issues with. It is the Sunni that hold a believe that ALL of them were righteous. A believe contrary to the Qur'an and authentic hadith.

Example of such sahaba:

1. Read the whole Chapter 9, sura Tawbah (e.g verse 101); sura al-Munafiq

2. 1. Ala b. Al-Musayyab narrated from his father, who said: "I met al-Bara'a ibn Azib and said to him: "You are fortunate, you were a companion of the prophet and paid allegiance to him under the tree".
Whereupon he said: "'My nephew, you do not know what we INNOVATED after him" (al-Bukhari vol. 5 p. 66)

Allah knew many of them will violate their oath; hence he warned:

"Those who paid allegiance to you in fact pay allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands. And WHOEVER VIOLATES that oath has done so against his own(self)~Q48:10"

Also prophet fore-told:

"On the day of resurrection you will be grabbed from the left, and I will say: 'where are they (being taken) to?' It will be said: "To Hell, by God. ' I will say: "my Lord! These are my companions'. It will be said: 'You
do not know what they did after you. From the time you left them they never ceased to apostatize. ' I will say: 'Away with him, away with him, woe to him who changed things after me. And I do not see anyone of them being saved except that he will be like a forlorn sheep".
(Sahih al-Bukhari vol. 7 p. 209, vol 4 p. 94, 156; Muslim vol. 7 p. 66).

3. What do you say to one who accused the holy prophet (saws) of madness (Yahjur) and prevented him from writing his last will that will keep you and I and all muslims away from straying and segregation?

4. What do you say to those among the companions who attempted to assassinate the holy prophet only for Allah to expose their plot?

5. What do you say to those ran away from various war leaving their prophet for dead in the midst of the enemies?

6. What do you say to those who left the holy prophet on the Minbar (during Salatul jum'a khutba) only to follow and join some groups who sells wordly goods and play music ( see the last verse of Sura Jumu'a)?

7. What do you say to those who threatened to burn Leader of all women of paradise, Fatima daughter of the prophet, alive in her house with her children and husband?

8. What do you say to those who wage war on he whom the prophet said:

"O Allah forsake him whoever forsake Ali..."
"O Allah turn the truth wherever Ali turns"
"Hatred of Ali is a sign of Munafiq and his love is a sign of a mu'min"

A war where hundreds of thousand muslim died. The first ever civil war.

9. What do you say to those who massacre the son of your prophet, Imam Hussain along his 72 companions some from the household of the prophet. He was butchered, maimed and his head was cut off, hanged with a spear while a mad orgy was being displayed. And the khalipha of the time saying:

"Where are my fore-fathers who muhammad killed at the battle of Badr, where are they to witness how I avenge their death from Muhammad".

Salam

you have ones said here that we should even try to tell you that abubakr and umar are of the pious companions. That i disagree with and i keep saying that you dont have the right to insult or or to justify your insults on this companions, just quote a book where it is said that Ali r.a insulted this two or called them munafiqun? Because he was alive when some of the things you claim happened.

Sorry for my insults. (baqir, lagos shia)

kaybyte: you have ones said here that we should even try to tell you that abubakr and umar are of the pious companions. That i disagree with and i keep saying that you dont have the right to insult or or to justify your insults on this companions, just quote a book where it is said that Ali r.a insulted this two or called them munafiqun? Because he was alive when some of the things you claim happened.

Alhamdulillah we are getting towards a better understanding and mutual dialogue now!

Kaybyte, honestly there are some shi'a who abuse, insult and even rain curses on afore-mentioned sahaba. Many have been killed for that. Many have been declared as kafir for that. And there are many who keep away from insulting and cursing.

Why do you think both party behaved in such a manner?

My assertion is if you pray for someone who doesn't deserved it or you curse someone who doesn't deserve it; Allah have power to change that to what best suit the person and reward you accordingly.

I personally don't insult, abuse or curse. What I do is recounting exactly what the books and early scholars of ahlu sunnah says and write about these sahaba. I call it bitter truth which many haven't heard of before despite being exist in their books.

You see I was a core ahlu sunnah brother before. Revering these sahaba without questioning as if believing in their righteousness is part of article of faith or a key to enter al-Jannah; and as if believing some of them were Munafiq lead to Jahanam.

If according to ahlu sunnah many prophets of God can be threatened, rebuked, warned for their mistakes "according to the Qur'an", what's so special in scrutinizing the life of each sahaba and place them according to their true color.

Kaybyte, ask yourself sincerely what you know about Fatima other than being daughter of the prophet, wife of Ali and mother of Hassanain?

This was a personality in which the prophet said she's the Leader of all women of paradise. This was a woman whose status was far greater than that of Maryam, Asiyah (wife of pharaoh) and lady khadijah.

What do you know about her and what does sheiks used to say about her compare to what you know and what sheik used to say about Aisha?

I really wish you and I elaborate in the light of Qur'an, hadith, Islamic history and our God-given intellect the personality of Ali (a.s) compare to ALL other sahaba. Remember today what we've been told from generation is that the best among the sahaba were Abu Bakar, Umar, Uthman in that order... Some include Ali, some don't in accordance with certain hadith in sahih Bukhari. When it comes to best woman, Aisha's name comes first.

Consider another thing: Abu Hurayrah was the largest collector of hadith with about 7000+
And this sahaba who was an illiterate, poor, down-trodden, who said: "I used to ask the sahaba of the prophet to teach me Qur'an because I know after that they might give me what to eat". He converted to Islam just 2years to the demise of the prophet in sham (syria). He never participated in ANY war or expenditure with Rasul. In fact it was not up 6 month he spent in the company of Rasul before prophet died.
Compare him with Ali who has been with the prophet since the age of 3years. Prophet taught and shaped him himself to the fact that Qur'an says he was "anfus (self)" of the prophet and prophet said: "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the gate, nobody should enter the city except through the gate".
How many hadith did Ali narrated according to ahlu sunnah? Less than 500 compare with 7000+ of Abu hurayrah.

As big and voluminous as sahih Bukhari and Muslim, both only recorded just 2 hadith from Fatima compare to thousands from Aisha. Fatima was older than Aisha by 5years. A person whom whenever she comes in the house, her father (saws) will stand up and greet her saying: "Ummi Abiha (her father's mother).

Consider another thing dear friend: sahih muslim, Nasai, Tirmidhi, Ibn majah, etc all reported through more than 30 chain of transmitters that what the prophet left as his legacy to be followed and adhere to by all muslims are "Book of God and his ahl al-bayt".
What do you hear today? "Qur'an and sunnah". Where is it found? This hadith can never be found in any sunni sahih books. Only Imam Malik recorded it in his "al-Muwatta" and he said there's no Isnad (chain of tranmitter) for the hadith thereby many graded it fabricated or weak hadith.
Why do general muslim claim what they claim today: Qur'an and sunnah?

Another area: Prophet said: "adhere to my sunnah and the sunnah of my rightly guided caliphs".

Who were the "rightly guided caliphs"? Every tom, dick and harry ahlu sunnah will tell you they were 4 and they were Abu bakar, Umar, Uthman and Ali in that order.
Alas! There's no single evident for these claims in any book whatsoever. Its a thousand year mental-slavery that has become part of us in the society.

On the other hand, what Bukhari, Muslim and others recorded in their books is that prophet said there will be 12 sccessor after me all of them from Quraysh. Till today, the hadith is still mystery to all ahlu sunnah because they have more than 12 khalipha and have different list of them among whom were beast-like khalipha.

Kindly read Roypcain and Al-baqir's dialogue here:
www.nairaland.com/1540743/imam-ali-named-sons-abu

I appreciate your approach now. Thanks

kaybyte: Sorry for my insults. (baqir, lagos shia)

mashaaAllah. am sooo happy that you apologised. its good and its a way of good islam. once we err, we shud tender our apologies. may Allah the almighty forgive us ALL

kaybyte: Sorry for my insults. (baqir, lagos shia)

May Allah ward-off our shortcomings, refine our moral characters and guide us thereof. Am also sorry and seek your forgiveness. I appreciate you sir/ma.

al baqir dont discriminate na..yu only said sir/ ma...yu forgot to put hermaphrodite...arent they humans

babylolaroy: al baqir dont discriminate na..yu only said sir/ ma...yu forgot to put hermaphrodite...arent they humans

Herma-what? Lol.
But on a serious note, what's the position of Sharia on hermaphrodite?

Al-Baqir:


Herma-what? Lol.
But on a serious note, what's the position of Sharia on hermaphrodite?

according to shariah, they should be treated equally with no discrimination ofcourse. they can inherit and they can be inherited. i was thot in school that the sex of a hermaphrodite is known by the number of his/her ribs. if he has 9-10, then its a male and has all rights accruing to a male in islam. if he decides to do surgery, he wud do away with the female organ. 9-10 is an example. it goes that if he has irregular numba of ribs..hez a male. where she has equal numbas like 10-10, 11-11 den its a female and all rights of a female thereto accrues to her.
apart from rib counting, the more active organ could be considered. maybe the one that feels more sensitive. then rights shud accrue to him as if he had been a male from the start.
wallahu a'lam

babylolaroy:
according to shariah, they should be treated equally with no discrimination ofcourse. they can inherit and they can be inherited. i was thot in school that the sex of a hermaphrodite is known by the number of his/her ribs. if he has 9-10, then its a male and has all rights accruing to a male in islam. if he decides to do surgery, he wud do away with the female organ. 9-10 is an example. it goes that if he has irregular numba of ribs..hez a male. where she has equal numbas like 10-10, 11-11 den its a female and all rights of a female thereto accrues to her.
apart from rib counting, the more active organ could be considered. maybe the one that feels more sensitive. then rights shud accrue to him as if he had been a male from the start.
wallahu a'lam

Freaky..

Throughout my time in this forum, i have noted that it is almost impossible to beat dogmas with logic or evidence. As the hadiths had stated, Caliph Abubakar was right, the hadiths have left muslims of today in a far worse predicament. Whenever the word 'Hadith' is used in the Qur'an for anything other than God 's verses, it carries a negative meaning(Qur'an 7:185, 12:111, 31:6, 45:6, 77:50).

There are already enough hadiths to convince sunnis that Qur'an is the only legitimate source of laws for a Muslim. What about the shiites?

Sunan Al-Daramy
Ali ibn Abu Talib,the 4th khalif in one of his speeches said, "I urge those who have taken writtings from the Messenger of God to go home and erase it. The people before you were annihilated because they followed hadiths of their scholars and left the book of their Lord".

Sunan-i-tirmizi/Darimi
They came to report to report to Ali and said," the public is engrossed in hadiths". "Is that so? aske Ali. The answer was in affirmative. "I had heard the Prophet say that a mischievous dissension seemed to lie ahead. I asked him about it and he said: 'the salvation is in the Qur'an. Those that went before you and those that will come after you are within the reach of the Qur'an, THE BOOK THAT SETTLE ALL DISPUTES....' ".

Look, i really don't need these hadiths, i don't believe them either. Am posting them for those who would rather accept hadiths than Qur'an verse. Enough for me is God(Qur'an 6:114, 7:3, 16:89, 39:36, 18:27).

Peace!

usermane: Throughout my time in this forum, i have noted that it is almost impossible to beat dogmas with logic or evidence. !

No offense bro, what logic or evidence do you always pride in? In Islam we have naql (text) and Aql (intellect). Am sorry bro many of your ideas are illogical.

usermane: .

There are already enough hadiths to convince sunnis that Qur'an is the only legitimate source of laws for a Muslim. What about the shiites?

Are u a practicing muslim? If yes, kindly answer the following question ONLY according to Qur'an:

1. "Say (O Muhammad)! If they truly love God, follow me (muhammad)..."~Qur'an

How do you follow Muhammad (saws) today since he's not among us physically?

2. Qur'an says: "establish salat..."
How do you establish salat?

3. Sura al-Maidah vs 7 talks about ablution (wet and dry) and bathing from ceremonial impurity.
How do you perform "Janabah" (ritual bath)?

4. Hajj is part of obligatory rites mention in the Qur'an, how do you perform Hajj according to Qur'an?

5. Zakat: Qur'an talks about it in many places, how and what do you use to pay zakat?

usermane:
Sunan Al-Daramy
Ali ibn Abu Talib,the 4th khalif in one of his speeches said, "I urge those who have taken writtings from the Messenger of God to go home and erase it. The people before you were annihilated because they followed hadiths of their scholars and left the book of their Lord".

Sunan-i-tirmizi/Darimi
They came to report to report to Ali and said," the public is engrossed in hadiths". "Is that so? aske Ali. The answer was in affirmative. "I had heard the Prophet say that a mischievous dissension seemed to lie ahead. I asked him about it and he said: 'the salvation is in the Qur'an. Those that went before you and those that will come after you are within the reach of the Qur'an, THE BOOK THAT SETTLE ALL DISPUTES....' ".

Where did you get all those? Which people before muslim follow the sayings of their scholars and left book of God? Those are words of Umar never Imam Ali (a.s) if at all your sources are not falsify.

Ascribing does lies to Imam Ali (a.s) prove you know nothing about him otherwise you would have read he was the first to have written commentary on the holy Qur'an verse by verse as explained to him by the holy prophet (saws)!
If you have ever read 'Nahj al-balagha', then you will know who Ali ibn Talib was in keeping sayings and practices of the prophet as important compliment of the Qur'an.

usermane:
Enough for me is God(Qur'an 6:114, 7:3, 16:89, 39:36, 18:27).

Peace!

If truly God is enough for you, why would the same God ask you to follow his prophet? Why did He asked you to obey His prophet's command? Why did He asked you to emulate his deeds if you truly believe in God and the last day?

I fear a time is coming when you will begin to doubt Qur'an itself saying there are errors in it and fails to "pass the logical sense of time". Some of your thoughts then shall be: Were you there when it was written or you actually saw Jubril revealing it or there's God's signature on each sura to know its from Him!

I pray to Allah to widen your heart for truth!

Peace.

OMG,we got a fiesty one here. What a cold welcome for me.

Al-Baqir, why did you turn down those hadiths, they are from the same source you rely on for your arguements. I believe you have enough collections to investigate them. I didn't fabricate them please.

As for your questions, every thing you need, you 'll find in the Qur'an. Hajj, Zakat, Salat, Ritual bath were known to the Arabs who were trying to practice Abraham 's religion before Muhammad came. Muhammad had no other duty, than delivering the message. Most of the details of these rites could be found in the Qur'an if and only if one would read the Qur'an to understand it. So pls, we should be careful, making statements like Qur'an is incomplete or not detailed is sinful.

Talking of doubting the Qur'an, i have heard it before. The sunnis, the shiites, they both have issues,that some chapters are incomplete. Am not kidding on this. It is not like hadithists even comply with the Qur'an in the first place. Afterall, they always favour the hadiths over the Qur'an.

Lastly, "obey the messenger" comes from obeying Qur'an. The messenger is not another god to be obeyed beside God. Everything he was asked to say was in the Qur'an. Obeying the messenger is obeying God, and obeying God is obeying Qur'an. The messenger is dead, he can't guide us. Any attempt to lean upon him now constitute lack of faith or belief in God.

usermane:
As for your questions, every thing you need, you 'll find in the Qur'an. Hajj, Zakat, Salat, Ritual bath were known to the Arabs who were trying to practice Abraham 's religion before Muhammad came.
.

Now you are going through Arab history before Muhammad but 'during and after Muhammad's life-time', were of no use to you. What an illogical reference.
Why don't you stop beating round the bush my friend. Answer those questions accordingly using Quran as your guide since you claim every specific detail is in holy Qur'an.

usermane:
Talking of doubting the Qur'an, i have heard it before. The sunnis, the shiites, they both have issues,that some chapters are incomplete. Am not kidding on this. It is not like hadithists even comply with the Qur'an in the first place. Afterall, they always favour the hadiths over the Qur'an.

Who compiled the holy Qur'an and when was it compiled? Give my detail ONLY according to the Qur'an since every detail is in it.

usermane:
Lastly, "obey the messenger" comes from obeying Qur'an. The messenger is not another god to be obeyed beside God. Everything he was asked to say was in the Qur'an. Obeying the messenger is obeying God, and obeying God is obeying Qur'an. The messenger is dead, he can't guide us. Any attempt to lean upon him now constitute lack of faith or belief in God.

So what was the purpose of sending a messenger to guide mankind?
Q.33:21 talks about a beautiful pattern of conduct of Muhammad; thereby, whoever believe in God and the last day should emulate him. Kindly explain to me only according to Qur'an how Muhammad (saws) did some of the following: eating habit, sleeping habit, naming ceremony, dead rituals, etc.
In what matters of life should we obey the messenger since according to you obeying the messenger is obeying Qur'an; at least it is crystal clear Qur'an did not give detail of everything pertaining to human life?

Everything still boils down to the previous questions. Don't quote history or hadith for me here just answer ONLY according to the Qur'an.

Al-Baqir:


Now you are going through Arab history before Muhammad but 'during and after Muhammad's life-time', were of no use to you. What an illogical reference.
Why don't you stop beating round the bush my friend. Answer those questions accordingly using Quran as your guide since you claim every specific detail is in holy Qur'an.



Who compiled the holy Qur'an and when was it compiled? Give my detail ONLY according to the Qur'an since every detail is in it.



So what was the purpose of sending a messenger to guide mankind?
Q.33:21 talks about a beautiful pattern of conduct of Muhammad; thereby, whoever believe in God and the last day should emulate him. Kindly explain to me only according to Qur'an how Muhammad (saws) did some of the following: eating habit, sleeping habit, naming ceremony, dead rituals, etc.
In what matters of life should we obey the messenger since according to you obeying the messenger is obeying Qur'an; at least it is crystal clear Qur'an did not give detail of everything pertaining to human life?

Everything still boils down to the previous questions. Don't quote history or hadith for me here just answer ONLY according to the Qur'an.

Salat
4:101-103, 17:110, 20:14, 29:45, 72:18

Zakat.
6:141

Fasting.
2:183-187

Hajj
2:196-203, 22:26-29

Overall
21:73, 22:78

Pre-Muhammad Arabs apart from performing these rituals believed in God.
6:136, 7:28, 39:3

Knowing the order of revealation or compilation of Qur'an has nothing to do with God 's message with our redemption.

33:21
Honesty, piety, kindness, generosity, faithfulness and obedience to God are the Prophet 's qualites which make him an example for us. You don't need hadith before you can develop these qualities. Abraham was described also as an example for Muhammad and us all(Qur'an 60:4), where are Abraham hadiths? Muhammad certainly did not have Abraham 's hadiths.

Am really dejected that you turned down the hadiths i cited for you. I take it that you did it because the hadiths weakens the foundation of your arguements.

Also, read Qur'an 6:110-117 and 25:30-31. Perhaps, you 'll know why i abide by only the Qur'an.

...

usermane: ...

O boy! You get serious problem! Now I understand your kind. Spit it out! Be a man! Muhammad (saws) is irrelevant. He deliver the message and that's all? Abi

Salat: (Q.4:101 -103)
Allah talks about shortening of prayer at the time of fear.
How do you perform 'salat'?
If there's no fear, how many unit of salat do you perform, and how many unit do you shorten if there's fear?

Then, time of salat is also emphasized! At what time do you pray and how many hours in a day?

NB: Dhikr (remembrance) is mentioned difft from salat!

Q.17:110 talks about Dhikr not salat
Q.20:45: Irrelevant to establishment of salat
Q.72:18: talks about mosques. I asked you about salat.

RITUAL BATH!
Sura Maidah (ch.5) vs 7
How do you perform it according to Qur'an?
NB: don't dodge this pls.

ZAKAT
Q.6: 141 "...pay the due thereof (zakat) on the day of harvest..."

Different farm products as in fruits etc are mentioned here. Which of the farm produce and how many do you pay out as zakat and to whom do you pay for?
Is zakat peculiar to the farmers only? What about non-farmers?
Then how much do you pay as zakat due? According to Qur'an!

FASTING
"...fast for a FIXED number of days..."
No doubt, the month to fast is Ramadhan! How many days do you fast? According to Qur'an!

HADITH!
You expect me to continue with you on what you did not believe in to exist? Something irrelevant to you?
At one hand you support Abu Bakar for burning hadith saying only Qur'an is to be follow! On the other hand, you ignore the bearer of the Islamic message (saws) saying at his death-bed: "bring pen and paper so I can write for you things in which if you follow, you will not go astray..."!

Since hadith (saying of the prophet) is of no use to you, what then is your concern about Ali, Abu Bakar et al? You better leave the stage for those who believe in the hadith.
You don't discuss what you don't believe in!

MUHAMMAD- A good example!
In that verse, Muhammad (saws) is the object matter not Abraham (a.s)!
If all those qualities you mentioned are only what you can think of, then what's the different between a muslim and a non-muslim because many of them observe those characteristics also?

My question again: how does Muhammad live his exemplary lifestyle to extent we are urged to emulate him?
Its difficult for you and I since he (saws) is no more in our midst physically, so what are the record of his A, B, C in the Qur'an: eating habit, sleeping habit...nikkah and naming ceremony, funeral rituals, governance, etc

NB: In the Qur'an, Abraham was introduce with certain dignified characters e.g he was a sidiq, he fulfill his promises etc likewise other prophets. But in this ayah (Q33:21), no character of Muhammad is mentioned yet we are obliged to follow his examples.

COMPILATION OF THE QUR'AN!
As important as Qur'an is to you, it is only rational to know its history. Qur'an cannot just say its a complete book from God. That's a claim. Who wrote it, how and when does it compiled?

How does Torah and Injeel lost their value if not in preservation? How does Qur'an preserved to this generation?

on the face of earth?. so people like ds username abi mane still exist?

Peace.
We will find out who respect the Prophet and his family more. The messenger 's duty: Qur'an 5:99, 6:48, 13:40.

Salat.
72:18, 20:14 17:110
One musn't call or mention or invoke any other name in his worship. Adding Muhammad or Ali 's name to adhan, iqamat, tashahood violate this. Certainly Muhammad did not accept these, these were innovations by later muslims. One 's attention is supposed to be exclusively on God. And you will agree with me that Muhammad and Ali did remember only God in their salat. You may perform your daily salats promptly all your life, but if u have been remembering other than God in your Salat, that is idolatry. Also Muhammad or Ali 's name should not be displayed or written next to God 's in the mosque.

17:110
I saw "salat" in that verse, not "dhikr". The tone of recitation is neither silently nor loud. Should be audible but moderate.
Salat times.
2:238, 11:114, 17:78, 24:58
The number of rak'ah is left to our discretion, 24434 just happened to be the most widely accepted combination. The fact that ju'mah pray has only 2 rakas could have something to do with these. Salat is not full of protocols as traditional muslims believe. Lame persons, people travelling in a state of fear on horses for instance are permitted to perform salat without standing! Qur'an 2:239.


Fasting.
You talked of "intellect" earlier. If God asked us to fast in a month and insist we make up for missed days due to travelling or illness then automatically he expect us to fast for a whole month.


Zakat.
This is cool. U think zakat is restricted to food crops because of the word "harvest"? Harvest refers to your periodical earnings. If you earn monthly, you give zakat monthly, if you earn annually, give zakat(2.5%) annually. The zakat rate is not fixed and depending on circumstances, can be altered by community.

What is with u on ritual bath? Bath intended to clean you after intercouse, that is it. No much different from normal bath apart from the intention.

33:21
Pls, Al-Baqir, man was given a brain. Qur'an(10:100) ask us to think. You don't need to be taught mundane, petty things like which hand to eat with,which leg to enter toilet with, which part of the dish to start eating from, which colour of cloth is prefered for men and women,how to dress, which fruit to break fast with,whether to wear cap or not,how long you should grow your beards,how wide apart your feet should be during salat,what to do when a rat fall into your soup,how often one should bath e.t.c the hadiths contains and traditional muslims boast of. Those aren't what you should be looking for in the Prophet. You only need to abide by what he abide by(Qur'an) to be like him.

babylolaroy: on the face of earth?. so people like ds username abi mane still exist?

So, it has gotten to that extent? Where people here wish to see me killed for no offence. How many times did i get my post hidden? And how many times was i banned. I nvr insulted anyone, but me usermane always got the axe. I even had to exile myself for a while but time haven't healed anything as i can see.
Am not back here, it is Al-Baqir that is holding me here. I lost my faith in this section long ago.

usermane: Peace.

Salat.
72:18, 17:110
One musn't call or mention or invoke any other name in his worship. Adding Muhammad or Ali 's name to adhan, iqamat, tashahood violate this. Certainly Muhammad did not accept these, these were innovations by later muslims. One 's attention is supposed to be exclusively on God. And you will agree with me that Muhammad and Ali did remember only God in their salat. You may perform your daily salats promptly all your life, but if u have been remembering other than God in your Salat, that is idolatry. Also Muhammad or Ali 's name should not be displayed or written next to God 's in the mosque.

May God shame adamant liars!

Who ask you about adhan, iqama et al? Who ask you name of Muhammad (saws) or Ali (a.s)? I simply ask you how do you establish 'salat' according to Qur'an!

usermane: Peace.
17:110
I saw "salat" in that verse, not "dhikr". The tone of recitation is neither silently nor loud. Should be audible but moderate.

Now I know you need help! Kindly show me where the word 'salat' is mention in this ayah! And besides what's the meaning of 'salat'?

"Kul id'huLLAH (say call upon Allah), awid'hu Rahman (or upon ar-Rahman)..."

Where Does Qur'an told you the number should be according to your discretion?
'Salat of fear': the fact that Allah says you can shorten it, is that also according to your discretion?

usermane: Peace.
Zakat.
This is cool. U think zakat is restricted to food crops because of the word "harvest"? Harvest refers to your periodical earnings. If you earn monthly, you give zakat monthly, if you earn annually, give zakat(2.5%) annually. The zakat rate is not fixed and depending on circumstances, can be altered by community.

I didn't say its only on crop! Unfortunately the verse you gave me highlighted crops only. And besides from where did you get 2.5% annually? Which verse stated that?
Does Qur'an told you the rate depend on circumstances and do not fixed? Does Qur'an told you community can use their discretion on it?

You are simply a fraud star!

On Fasting:
Nope! He said "fast for few days only" in the month of Ramadhan. This is different from fast in the whole month of Ramadhan or fast throughout the days of Ramadhan!
Again: how many few days do you fast mr discretion?

usermane: Peace.
What is with u on ritual bath? Bath intended to clean you after intercouse, that is it. No much different from normal bath apart from the intention.

Here Allah commanded the believers. So if an idol-worshiper or non-muslim 'just take a normal bath' after intercourse with intention of cleaning himself off sexual dirtiness, he has perform a ritual bath?
Bro. You sick seriously.

usermane: Peace.
33:21
Pls, Al-Baqir, man was given a brain. Qur'an(10:100) ask us to think. You don't need to be taught mundane, petty things like which hand to eat with,which leg to enter toilet with, which part of the dish to start eating from, which colour of cloth is prefered for men and women,how to dress, which fruit to break fast with,whether to wear cap or not,how long you should grow your beards,how wide apart your feet should be during salat,what to do when a rat fall into your soup,how often one should bath e.t.c the hadiths contains and traditional muslims boast of. Those aren't what you should be looking for in the Prophet. You only need to abide by what he abide by(Qur'an) to be like him.

Now I understand those in whose heart there's disease.

babylolaroy: on the face of earth?. so people like ds username abi mane still exist?

I never knew d extent of his sickness. Now I realize what uve went thru with him. He needs help.
I was able to discover some of the website he discover his new faith.

Al-Baqir:

May God shame adamant liars!

Who ask you about adhan, iqama et al? Who ask you name of Muhammad (saws) or Ali (a.s)? I simply ask you how do you establish 'salat' according to Qur'an!



Now I know you need help! Kindly show me where the word 'salat' is mention in this ayah! And besides what's the meaning of 'salat'?

"Kul id'huLLAH (say call upon Allah), awid'hu Rahman (or upon ar-Rahman)..."

Where Does Qur'an told you the number should be according to your discretion?
'Salat of fear': the fact that Allah says you can shorten it, is that also according to your discretion?




I didn't say its only on crop! Unfortunately the verse you gave me highlighted crops only. And besides from where did you get 2.5% annually? Which verse stated that?
Does Qur'an told you the rate depend on circumstances and do not fixed? Does Qur'an told you community can use their discretion on it?

You are simply a fraud star!

On Fasting:
Nope! He said "fast for few days only" in the month of Ramadhan. This is different from fast in the whole month of Ramadhan or fast throughout the days of Ramadhan!
Again: how many few days do you fast mr discretion?



Here Allah commanded the believers. So if an idol-worshiper or non-muslim 'just take a normal bath' after intercourse with intention of cleaning himself off sexual dirtiness, he has perform a ritual bath?
Bro. You sick seriously.



Now I understand those in whose heart there's disease.

Man, i just love this. I gave you what you demanded. But in the end you chosed what you wanted. Salat, Zakat, Fasting are not Muhammad 's message. The populace performed those rite before Muhammad. Muhammad nvr taught them, rather he simply practiced them, devoting them entirely to God alone. It shouldn't be surprising that the Qur'an did not highlight everything about the already established rites,only making correction. The parts of these rites that needed correction was what were mentioned in the Qur'an. Like Salat, 72:18, 20:14 and 29:45, these are crucial details whose violation constitute joining others in worship with God, idolatry but majority of muslims ignore these and keep asking, "where in the Qur'an says we should recite fatiha in salat or where in the Qur'an says we should perform 4 rakas during zuhr?" Hmm... talk of dogmas. Then 17:110, pls read to the end of the verse. This is another salat detail hadithists violate, they complain of Qur'an not teaching how to pray, but the few salat details in the book of God, they utterly betray. But alas, what do you call persons like me? "one in whose heart is disease", right?

Traditionalists came up with their own version of these rites and begin to tell us that it is either you perform salat like them or you have no salat. Even the hadiths do not specifically teach salat like hadithists practice. They are full of contradictory reports of persons who "claimed to have seen" the Prophet pray. Is that what one should be relying upon for performing salat? Can i have one hadith where the Prophet taught the complete way to pray? I didn't learn how to perform salat from hadith books,neither did my parents, and neither did my grandparents. Salat is just a tradition like zakat,fasting,hajj that have been passed down generation after generations from the time of Abraham,undergoing alterations in the process.

I won't speak more on the rest, can't you see, it is pointless. Only those who understand what God mean by "fully detailed", in Qur'an 6:114, will be able to see things as they are. Untill then, a wall will remain btw the Qur'an and the reader.