Thank you Image123.

Note that you are to Present R1 tonight.

Can you do so or will allow Miwerds/Candour to present M1, just in case you and your partner are not ready?

@Rhymejohn

What you have presented has no title. Is it part of Image's points or are they your own points?

Both of you were supposed to harmonize your points and present them as one man.

I would advice that you edit your last post and make them a continuation of the points of Image's points: list them as R6, R7,..., R10; if you have up till five points like Image.

Then allow Image to discuss his points first before you do yours.

Please do you understand me?

Refer to a portion of the rules as quoted below

4. Both sides in one post shall be presenting 10 points each on thier position on tithing. Each point shall be named after the lead discussants on each side. Thus for Rhymeyjohn, his points shall be listed: R1, R2, R3,...., R10. Miwerds, his points will be M1, M2, M3,...., M10. Here is an example for the post by Rhymey

Example:

R1: Tithe is an Eternal Principle (Heb 20:20; Mark 24:2; ....)

R2: Tithe is compulsory (John 25:1; Ezekiel 60:70;....)

Then Miwerds shall make his own presentation in one post M1,...; along with their scriptural positions.

This is neccesary so that we do not repeat points already discussed. Also, if in the procees of discussing point R2, point R7 had been trashed out, by the time you get to point R7, the two groups could agree to skip it.

When a group makes a presentation and the four steps of response is exhausted, the other group will make their own presentation. So for this discuss, I suggest that Ryhmejohn presents his R1 first; to be followed by Miwerds M1; and the discuss will continue in that manner.

5. Presentation will be in this format

a. Presenting a point, say R1 by Ryhmey, titled Presenting R1. When you are done with your presentation, you should state "end"

b. A rebuttal of R1 by Miwerd/Candour titled Rebutting R1.

c. Then a Response to Rebuttal by Rhymey, titled Response to Rebuttal R1.

d. Then a response to response by Miwerds/Candour titled Response to Response R1.

This way each post on the discuss has a name and can be refered to easily later if there is a need to do so. Also, after a point has been trashed out in this four steps outlined above, it should not be revisited again. Not that the point cannot be mentioned in a latter discuss, but that this particular discuss will be considered finished at this point and there will be no need to refer to it again. This is to discourage un-ending hammering of a point. Therefore participants are expected to do a thorough work in the two opportunities they have to present on a point.

Presenting R1. Our tithing is borne out of the fact that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God. (2 Timothy 3:16)

When we talk of tithing or of any thing or practice, there is usually a motivation, a reason. i mean, people do not normally do things without reason, right? Some people's actions are motivated by fear, some by respect, some by hate, some by love, some by faith etc. It is a statement in christian parlance that God looks at motive and not just action. Motive BTW is another word for reason, intention or aim.Motives matter and actions equally matter too. The two need to go in sync. Tithing in this case is the action and the motives are the reasons being presented. This motive is foundational to us as tithers, and that is that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
This passage says from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures The Holy Scriptures being referred to are not even the epistles or the gospels as none of these was yet to be written when Timothy was a child. The Holy Scriptures were basically what we popularly know today as the Old Testament. The writer says they are Holy, and are ABLE to make one wise. Then comes the all important statement. ALL Scripture. ALL, that includes Haggai or Zephaniah or Psalms or Genesis or Malachi. And that includes what we popular call the New Testament, because the New Testament are Scriptures. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. There is NO useless scripture but they are all divinely breathed as it were. This is foundational to the believer to know, realise and reckon with.
All scripture is not only inspired, all Scripture is profitable. We do not all see the profit at every time. Any scripture can be used by God to come alive, from what they call logos to rhema. This for instance is why you may read a particular passage many times in a life time and yet mark or highlight some specific like you never saw it before. It became more profitable to you at that moment. All scripture is profitable, there is none useless or unprofitable. That a person does not see the profit at the moment does not mean that it is not profitable. What we need is help from God's Holy Spirit and perhaps time, and then we may see and enjoy the profit of a particular scripture or passage. The aim of all scriptures is that the man of God(which should be every believer) may be perfect and thoroughly furnished. Now, no one is perfect in that sense. But children of God are expected to press on to perfection, toward the mark for the prize of the high calling. There is a mark but even Paul the apostle claimed not to be there. So, all scripture is given so that we can all press on toward that mark. Now, we/i am not talking about pressing to salvation. There is nothing we can do as it were to obtain salvation or forgiveness of sins. i'm talking about pressing to the mark. All scripture is given for this purpose, that he man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. It is in this light that we tithe.


end

^

I accept this as the genuine Presentation for R1. This is what Miwerds and Candour should respond to in their rebuttals and not the earlier post by Rhymeyjohn.

Miwerds and co, you have up to 10 am tomorrow morning, Nigerian time, to answer to this post, in a post titled Rebutting R1.

Miwerds/Candour, can you give us an idea of when you will make your presentation? It is late and some of us may want to catch some sleep.

Thank you.

Image123: Presenting R1. Our tithing is borne out of the fact that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God. (2 Timothy 3:16)

When we talk of tithing or of any thing or practice, there is usually a motivation, a reason. i mean, people do not normally do things without reason, right? Some people's actions are motivated by fear, some by respect, some by hate, some by love, some by faith etc. It is a statement in christian parlance that God looks at motive and not just action. Motive BTW is another word for reason, intention or aim.Motives matter and actions equally matter too. The two need to go in sync. Tithing in this case is the action and the motives are the reasons being presented. This motive is foundational to us as tithers, and that is that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
This passage says from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures The Holy Scriptures being referred to are not even the epistles or the gospels as none of these was yet to be written when Timothy was a child. The Holy Scriptures were basically what we popularly know today as the Old Testament. The writer says they are Holy, and are ABLE to make one wise. Then comes the all important statement. ALL Scripture. ALL, that includes Haggai or Zephaniah or Psalms or Genesis or Malachi. And that includes what we popular call the New Testament, because the New Testament are Scriptures. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. There is NO useless scripture but they are all divinely breathed as it were. This is foundational to the believer to know, realise and reckon with.
All scripture is not only inspired, all Scripture is profitable. We do not all see the profit at every time. Any scripture can be used by God to come alive, from what they call logos to rhema. This for instance is why you may read a particular passage many times in a life time and yet mark or highlight some specific like you never saw it before. It became more profitable to you at that moment. All scripture is profitable, there is none useless or unprofitable. That a person does not see the profit at the moment does not mean that it is not profitable. What we need is help from God's Holy Spirit and perhaps time, and then we may see and enjoy the profit of a particular scripture or passage. The aim of all scriptures is that the man of God(which should be every believer) may be perfect and thoroughly furnished. Now, no one is perfect in that sense. But children of God are expected to press on to perfection, toward the mark for the prize of the high calling. There is a mark but even Paul the apostle claimed not to be there. So, all scripture is given so that we can all press on toward that mark. Now, we/i am not talking about pressing to salvation. There is nothing we can do as it were to obtain salvation or forgiveness of sins. i'm talking about pressing to the mark. All scripture is given for this purpose, that he man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. It is in this light that we tithe.


end

DrummaBoy: ^

I accept this as the genuine Presentation for R1. This is what Miwerds and Candour should respond to in their rebuttals and not the earlier post by Rhymeyjohn.

Miwerds and co, you have up to 10 am tomorrow morning, Nigerian time, to answer to this post, in a post titled Rebutting R1.

Miwerds/Candour, can you give us an idea of when you will make your presentation? It is late and some of us may want to catch some sleep.

Thank you.

We can't give you the exact time but you'll see the Rebuttal before 10am Nigerian time tommorow

God bless us all

DrummaBoy: ^

I accept this as the genuine Presentation for R1. This is what Miwerds and Candour should respond to in their rebuttals and not the earlier post by Rhymeyjohn.

Miwerds and co, you have up to 10 am tomorrow morning, Nigerian time, to answer to this post, in a post titled Rebutting R1.

Miwerds/Candour, can you give us an idea of when you will make your presentation? It is late and some of us may want to catch some sleep.

Thank you.

Sorry Bro, but in my opinion he has not really made a genuine case for supporting the tithe, I think Rhymeyjohn's presentation is more valid to this discourse. ?

The tithers are not really organised/prepared like the anti-tithers, mayb they suld av bin given more time to communicate wit demselves cos its obvious theyve not done so

While we have our 10 Points already worked out, it would have been impossible to work out the Rebuttals to the tither's points prior to knowing what those points are.

We thank them for posting the points and for presenting Point R1. We are currently working on the Rebuttal to R1, but have to communicate back and forth a few times before we give that rebuttal.

As my ally stated, the Rebuttal to R1 will be given before 10 o'clock Nigerian time, which should be 3:00 my time (Mississippi).

Thanks for your patience as we work on the Rebuttal.

REBUTTAL TO R1

True all scripture is inspired by God but not all scriptures are meant for us to practice in the new covenant of grace established through the blood of Christ. There are a lot of good practices in the old testament that are pleasing to God but we don't rush to start practicing them as they are at variance with the dispensation of grace encompassing both Jews and Gentiles today. Tithing is not the only practice we find if we go on a search of scriptures particularly the old testament. There are various practices like burnt offerings, sin offerings, feast of weeks, feast of tabernacles, Sabbath observance etc. and they all had their reasons why they were instituted by God almighty.

If the motive for tithing is because they are found in scripture, then every single tither is obligated to engage in all the forms of tithing and the other practices listed above (and plenty others) that are found in scripture. For instance see a form of tithing that is very important to God as underscored by the bolded portion

Deut 14:22-23
‘Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.[23]And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.’

If a tither doesn’t practice the above form of tithing, then he’s guilty of disobedience in all the sense of the word. We don’t get to select what to do and what not to do based on what or how we feel otherwise we run foul of another scripture inspired by God in Deut 27:26. The key is to rightly divide the word of truth to know what applies to us today with respect to the cross of Jesus Christ.


As a child, Timothy knew the holy scriptures. This is because of the fact that his mother, Eunice and grandmother Lois were Jewish women who had love for God and must have taught them to him (2Tim 1:5). The Scriptures that his mother and grandmother taught him would have been the Scriptures of the Old Testament which were basically the Mosaic law. He would have known that God commanded a tithe of crops and livestock. (Lev. 27:30-33) . Timothy would have also known about the various forms of tithing (Num 18:21-31, Deut 14:22-29) and would have known they had to be practiced the exact way God intended them to be otherwise it becomes a transgression.

End

@Candour. Pls indicate if you have ended the reuttal.

If you have ended your discuss sir, then Image123 and Rhymeyjohn have up till 3pm, Nigerian time, today, to offer a Response to the Rebuttal R1.

I have to state this time limits, so that the discuss enjoys time limitations and viewers do not have to wait forever to see a response.

Thanks to all.

DrummaBoy: @Candour. Pls indicate if you have ended the reuttal.

If you have ended your discuss sir, then Image123 and Rhymeyjohn have up till 3pm, Nigerian time, today, to offer a Response to the Rebuttal R1.

I have to state this time limits, so that the discuss enjoys time limitations and viewers do not have to wait forever to see a response.

Thanks to all.

Apologies for the ommision of 'end'

I've indicated it now

@All, i have already presented R6 to R10, because Image123 had made points R1 to R5. For the sake of ease and tight schedule, i made both my points and presentation at once, the rebutals can be made one at a time. For orderliness, i feel we should continue with Image123 other presentations and rebutals before coming to mine. God Bless

RESPONSE TO REBUTAL R1 On behalf of image123

Candour:

True all scripture is inspired by God but not all scriptures are meant for us to practice in the new covenant of grace established through the blood of Christ. There are a lot of good practices in the old testament that are pleasing to God but we don't rush to start practicing them as they are at variance with the dispensation of grace encompassing both Jews and Gentiles today.

You made no biblical prove to support your blanket assertions, and am sure you dont want this bible based discourse to take any of those points Its not good for you to tell us what you think, The bible says in John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. It not enough to think, search the scriptures, present and stop thinking.
KJV

Tithing is not the only practice we find if we go on a search of scriptures particularly the old testament. There are various practices like burnt offerings, sin offerings, feast of weeks, feast of tabernacles, Sabbath observance etc. and they all had their reasons why they were instituted by God almighty.

Every old testament principle which stopped under grace had a significance under grace, they were a shadow of Christ. Col 2:16-17
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Talking about the preisthood and their duties (burnt,sin offerings e.t.c) The bible tells us they were a shadow. Heb 8:5-7
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. The bible then tell us about the real, which is Christ in verse six.
6 But now hath he (JESUS)obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Notice that throughout the new testament, the significance of those old testaments practices were revealed. Jesus Christ is our sin offering Heb13:11,12, Jesus is also our tabernacle Heb9:11, talking about feast of days, Apostle paul says their significance is in shew of will worship and humility....col2:16-20. NO WHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF TITHING EVER STATED, it most likely is not a shadow, afterall, it didnt begin in the law.

If the motive for tithing is because they are found in scripture, then every single tither is obligated to engage in all the forms of tithing and the other practices listed above (and plenty others) that are found in scripture. For instance see a form of tithing that is very important to God as underscored by the bolded portion

Deut 14:22-23
‘Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.[23]And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.’

If a tither doesn’t practice the above form of tithing, then he’s guilty of disobedience in all the sense of the word. We don’t get to select what to do and what not to do based on what or how we feel otherwise we run foul of another scripture inspired by God in Deut 27:26. The key is to rightly divide the word of truth to know what applies to us today with respect to the cross of Jesus Christ.

Tithing didnt begin in the law, just like marriage and circumcision, if you want to the whole truth, dont trace it to Deuteronomy and make conclusion from there, such conclusions would be baseless and haphazard The law only gave it its colouration.

As a child, Timothy knew the holy scriptures. This is because of the fact that his mother, Eunice and grandmother Lois were Jewish women who had love for God and must have taught them to him (2Tim 1:5). The Scriptures that his mother and grandmother taught him would have been the Scriptures of the Old Testament which were basically the Mosaic law. He would have known that God commanded a tithe of crops and livestock. (Lev. 27:30-33) . Timothy would have also known about the various forms of tithing (Num 18:21-31, Deut 14:22-29) and would have known they had to be practiced the exact way God intended them to be otherwise it becomes a transgression.

Timothy (from bible records) is not a farmer, how/why should he tithe crops and livestock? The Oxford dictionary define tithe as a tenth of one's earning in a year, if Timothy didnt earn crops/livestock, why should he tithe that?

End

@ moderators,

Are comments allowed now or you let us know when it's open for comments from participants?

Goshen360: @ moderators,

Are comments allowed now or you let us know when it's open for comments from participants?

I will encourage that all comments that need be made on what is going on here between the participants should be made on the former thread: https://www.nairaland.com/1540233/inviting-tithers-theological-discuss-miwerds/15. I am sorry Goshen you still cannot comment here until all 20 points have been trashed out.

I understand that some of us are itching to point out somethings, we can still do that on the former thread.

Thank you for your cooperation.

@ Mark Miwerds and Candour

The last post was made by Rhymeyjohn at about 11am. I am given you up till 11pm tonight to offer a Response to the Response R1.

Thank you.

DrummaBoy: @ Mark Miwerds and Candour

The last post was made by Rhymeyjohn at about 11am. I am given you up till 11pm tonight to offer a Response to the Response R1.

Thank you.

Thank you, DrummaBoy. I have sent my Response to the Response to R1 to Candour and await his addendum to it. Then, I will deliver it to the thread for all to read.

Rhymeyjohn:

MY SUBMISSIONS
R6. Tithe means a tenth. Heb7:1, Gen28:22
R7. Abraham laid the precept of tithing and taught (from inference) his children about it, pre-law
R8. Christians today are children of Abraham and should do the works of Abraham John8:39,Rom4:11,13, Gal3:4
R9. Abraham and Jacob gave/offered God their tithe. Christians should give God their tithe (not pastor, reverend e.t.c). Gen34:7,14:19, Mal3:10
R10. Abraham and Jacob gave tithe of THEIR ALL . A Christian should give tithe of his all. Gen28:22, Heb7:1, Mal3:10.

I accept the above as R6,..., R10, for Image123 and Rhymeyjohn. I request that Miwerds and Candour should take note of them.

@ All Participants

This is a suggestion and not a rule:

1. When we offer our rebuttal, let us make them wholesome and not in the tit-bit manner that we usually use on the forum; and which Rhymeyjohn has just used in his Response to Rebuttal. I am not curtailing anyone's freedom but I feel that it will be easier for our reader/viewers and people who will search out this thread in the future to read our responses and learn. It can be a bit tedious reading rebuttals in that manner. It is a personal suggestion that can or may not be taken by the participants.

2. The participants have not shown any spirit of sportmanship in the introductory posts. In the rule I had suggested that we should extend a hand of sportmanship to our "opponents" before the discuss starts; especially in the post where we listed our points. If it is not too late, I will request that we do that. It will help those reading from page 0 appreciate the feeling of love and cordiality on the thread. I am saying let each party say something positive about the person of the other party on that post. This is not so much a suggestion but a reminder as it is part of the rules.

Thank you everyone.

DrummaBoy: @ All Participants

This is a suggestion and not a rule:

1. When we offer our rebuttal, let us make them wholesome and not in the tit-bit manner that we usually use on the forum; and which Rhymeyjohn has just used in his Response to Rebuttal. I am not curtailing anyone's freedom but I feel that it will be easier for our reader/viewers and people who will search out this thread in the future to read our responses and learn. It can be a bit tedious reading rebuttals in that manner. It is a personal suggestion that can or may not be taken by the participants.

2. The participants have not shown any spirit of sportmanship. In the rule I had suggested that we should extend a hand of sportmanship to our "opponents" before the discuss starts; especially in the post where we listed our points. If it is not too late, I will request that we do that. It will help those reading from page 0 appreciate the feeling of love and cordiality on the thread. I am saying let each party say something positive about the person of the other party on that post. This is not so much a suggestion but a reminder as it is part of the rules.

Thank you everyone.

Please see my post just prior to Candour's Rebuttal.

Sorry, I had speech recognition on and for some reason, it did not recognize the word "Please." I am typing now. Harder, but a little more accurate. Please bear with me.

@Miwerds/Candour

I want to request that when you post Response to Response R1 you should follow it up with your next post Presenting M1. This is to save time so this discuss is not unnecasarily long. You may have an hour in between these postings.

@Image and Rhymey

When M1 is presented, you shall have at most 12 hours after that to present Rebutting M1.

Thank you Gentlemen.

Response to Rebuttal R1.


While i largely agree with the response, it has to be noted that i do not advocate that all scriptures must be practiced. That in itself will be impracticable as there are some scripture not meant for practice. for instance,
Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Tamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
What can one practice with that? Nothing, i suppose. The point that i stated and which remains valid is that all scripture is inspired by God, ALL, including the one i just quoted. And all scripture is profitable, even if an individual does not know the usefulness, or if it is not useful at a particular time. i explained that by showing how we sometimes find a verse more useful to us at a time than at another time. This point is important as there are folks that believe and teach that some part of scripture is useless or unprofitable.
Practices like burnt offerings, sin offerings, feast of weeks, feast of tabernacles, Sabbath observance are clearly shown in Scriptures to be a shadow of the real, the real being Christ. It is like asking why i do not use a pager, or send correspondence often by the post man. In the present age, a smartphone does that and more. Therefore, i do not need a pager! The pager has done its part, but thank you, i can now tweet, and facebook, and nairaland, and chat/email.
Now, the christian walk or race is one step at a time. There is a pressing forward, a patient running. Nobody has 'reached there' as it were. There is room for growth and improvement. Do note that i am not talking about or referring to salvation. Nobody grows into salvation or uses efforts or work. Only faith in Jesus is needed for salvation. i am referring to the growth of the child of God into the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Ephesians 4v13). In this growth process, after one has being saved comes the desire to please God. And in pleasing God, we look at the Word of God, like in a mirror. And the Spirit of God reveals areas in our life where we can change into His likeness. It is in this that we see faults in ourselves when examining ourselves and then we ask God for grace as we repent. There are epistles to christians to put off anger, filthy communication, malice. There are admonitions to pray without ceasing, rejoice in the Lord ALWAYS and so on. Not every believer has it 100% in these. But we do not say oh i'm obligated to do all these, and since i cannot do all these, let me do none. The new testament dispensation is not exactly an obligation IN THE SAME SENSE of the Old Covenant.
When we look at the sermon on the mount(Matthew 5-7) and consider be courteous, put on meekness, longsuffering etc. There might be areas where we are lacking, but that in no way should discourage us from growing in any of these. Same with the Scriptures in every part. If we feel there is a lack in obedience in one part, it should not discourage obedience in another part. It is step by step and as God gives you grace to obey. Again, we are not obeying to obtain salvation or to become acceptable before God. Obedience is driven by the fact that the Scriptures are inspired by God and profitable.
There is no selection or favoritism. It is more a question of understanding what God is saying and the purpose for which He is saying it. We can ask God for wisdom and understanding to see how the Scriptures apply to us. And then we get grace to do as God as said. We need to have a clear understanding of the covenant/agreement that we are in with God.
Again, my point was not about the tribe or geneology of Timothy but about the fact that the Old Testament is Scripture. This is the Scripture that Timothy knew FROM A CHILD(from childhood). The fact that they are HOLY, able to make one wise, divinely inspired and profitable. Yes, they are Holy Scriptures, Malachi 3, Deuteronomy 14, etc ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God.



End

@Image123 and Rhymeyjohn

I will kindly request that you should tell us which of the Response to Rebuttal R1 Miwerds/Candour are to respond to?

Both of you have presented two; is there a disconnect between you two? You are to present as one man.

I would ask Miwerds and Candour to respond to the earlier Response to Rebuttal by Rhymeyjohn and ignore the latter one by Image123. Already Mark and his ally are working on responding to Rhymeyjohn's post.

DrummaBoy: @ All Participants

This is a suggestion and not a rule:

1. When we offer our rebuttal, let us make them wholesome and not in the tit-bit manner that we usually use on the forum; and which Rhymeyjohn has just used in his Response to Rebuttal. I am not curtailing anyone's freedom but I feel that it will be easier for our reader/viewers and people who will search out this thread in the future to read our responses and learn. It can be a bit tedious reading rebuttals in that manner. It is a personal suggestion that can or may not be taken by the participants.

2. The participants have not shown any spirit of sportmanship in the introductory posts. In the rule I had suggested that we should extend a hand of sportmanship to our "opponents" before the discuss starts; especially in the post where we listed our points. If it is not too late, I will request that we do that. It will help those reading from page 0 appreciate the feeling of love and cordiality on the thread. I am saying let each party say something positive about the person of the other party on that post. This is not so much a suggestion but a reminder as it is part of the rules.

Thank you everyone.

i had to send in that Response to Rebuttal R1. because i am yet to discuss with Rhymejohn on ANYTHING. i emailed him twice, but i am yet to get his rsponse. Now, you are free to do as you please with the Response, as the moderator, but i thought it needful to send it in. i believe the aim of having two of us is to partner with one another. i do not require someone to help me send a post, i can do with a partner with whom we discuss and conclude before postings. Please do not mistake honour for levity. i'm honouring him because he indicated sincere interest, and i am ready and willing to work WITH him. Now for instance, he's brought up R6 to R10 which we did not discuss or conclude. i hoped to discuss R1 to R5 with him and i emailed them to him before posting it here. It was because we did not hear from him that i went ahead to paste it since the discuss was to start for 7pm yesterday. To me R6 is not a reason to tithe but a basic definition of tithe. R7 to R10 is about the same thing in different words. We've not both discussed that, how am i then expected to participate in that? Like someone suggested, maybe it is better we are given more time.
Do the needful as it were, it is still your decision not mine.

Image123:

i had to send in that Response to Rebuttal R1. because i am yet to discuss with Rhymejohn on ANYTHING. i emailed him twice, but i am yet to get his rsponse. Now, you are free to do as you please with the Response, as the moderator, but i thought it needful to send it in. i believe the aim of having two of us is to partner with one another. i do not require someone to help me send a post, i can do with a partner with whom we discuss and conclude before postings. Please do not mistake honour for levity. i'm honouring him because he indicated sincere interest, and i am ready and willing to work WITH him. Now for instance, he's brought up R6 to R10 which we did not discuss or conclude. i hoped to discuss R1 to R5 with him and i emailed them to him before posting it here. It was because we did not hear from him that i went ahead to paste it since the discuss was to start for 7pm yesterday. To me R6 is not a reason to tithe but a basic definition of tithe. R7 to R10 is about the same thing in different words. We've not both discussed that, how am i then expected to participate in that? Like someone suggested, maybe it is better we are given more time.
Do the needful as it were, it is still your decision not mine.

It's OK Image; I think I understand your difficulty here. I was almost certain that both of you had had things cleared up before the discussion started but apparently that is not the case.

My decision still stands because I am aware that Mark and Candour are working on responding to the Rhymey's post and not yours. What we can do, however, is that we will still permit this Response to Rebuttal R1 by you on the thread and we shall give Mark and Candour the liberty to respond to it or not. They may as well respond to both of you in their post.

I will just request that from now on, both of you should agree on posts before coming out.

Thanks.

DrummaBoy:

It's OK Image; I think I understand your difficulty here. I was almost certain that both of you had had things cleared up before the discussion started but apparently that is not the case.

My decision still stands because I am aware that Mark and Candour are working on responding to the Rhymey's post and not yours. What we can do, however, is that we will still permit this Response to Rebuttal R1 by you on the thread and we shall give Mark and Candour the liberty to respond to it or not. They may as well respond to both of you in their post.

I will just request that from now on, both of you should agree on posts before coming out.

Thanks.

Hi DrummaBoy, I'm seeing this issue for the first time. Pls I'll crave your indulgence to let image defend his post with his own response to the rebuttal. Obviously Rymeyjohn being a good partner didn't want them to run foul of the time limit hence his response even though they've not really come together to harmonise issues.

Personally, I won't want to respond to 2 rebuttals on the same ppoint as its a strain on Mark and I since we must present a common position necessitating regular communication. We are in separate time zones with 7 hours difference. When he's sleeping, I'm up and when he's up, I should be sleeping. Its tasking enough as it is.

I'll prefer we treat this post by image as the valid response and respond accordingly. Whatever time has gone in preparing a response to Ryhmeyjohn will be taken as one of them sacrifices. I'll beg Mark to allow us work on this while you give us some additional time because of this situation.

Thanks a lot

@Candour. The above arrangement is fine with me. I also will wish to call Rhymey to order as it sèem he is drawing Image back. If he cañnot kèep up with the discuss I will request he lets us know, so Image may find someone else to work with. We await Miwerds/Candour posts.

DrummaBoy: @Candour. The above arrangement is fine with me. I also will wish to call Rhymey to order as it sèem he is drawing Image back. If he cañnot kèep up with the discuss I will request he lets us know, so Image may find someone else to work with. We await Miwerds/Candour posts.

I am OK with Responding to the post put up by Image123.

If the two are not communicating, it is not fair to them for us to respond to a one-sided post that the other never agreed upon.

Can two walk together except they be agreed?

I would encourage all to correspond with their ally via email. It helps to curtail occurrences such as the one above if communication is readily available.

@Image123
Given the problems you are having communicating with your ally, my offer to be your ally still stands.

I have decided to put the Response to Rhymejohn's Response up, since both Candour and I took much time to piece it together. Candour is currently working on the Response to Image's Response so that Image's concern is properly addressed as well.

I want to think Image and Rhyme for their agreeing to discuss the tithes with us, and hope that each one of us walks away from the table so to speak with a better understanding of God's Word and what He requires of man in the matter of stewardship.

I also want to thank the Moderators, Ajibam and DrummaBoy for agreeing to preside over this Discussion, keeping all of us in check and assuring that we post in a good Christian fashion that will be pleasing to our Father in Heaven and will exemplify His Son in us before man on Earth.

And now, without further delay, I present

RESPONSE 1 TO RHYMEJOHN'S RESPONSE R1

My opponent wishes for proof that not all Scripture is for us to practice. I submit that Acts 15 (which is part of a
later point or ours) is all the proof one needs to prove not all Scripture
applies to us that we must practice or follow it. Acts 15 clearly states that the Gentile Converts were not to be required to keep the Mosaic Law. (Acts 15:10) In Galatians, the Apostle Paul rebuked the Galatians , telling them they were foolish for allowing the Jusaizers to “bewitch them” into submitting to the Law. (Gal. 3:1-3)

The Apostle stated that they would be cursed if the tried to keep any
part of the Law and not all of the Law (Gal 3:10)

Also the law was only a school master to bring us to the knowledge of the need for a saviour. Since the saviour has come, we no longer need that school master (Gal 3:24-25)


Colossians 2:14 KJV
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Paul stated that the handwriting of ordinances had been blotted out, meaning they are abolished. Tithing is one of these ordinances (Mal 3:7- and if the apostle Paul said its blotted out, then we need to believe it has been blotted out.

The tithing said to be practiced today began in the law and it has passed away with the law (He 7:12,18). The Levitical order for which tithe was instituted is no more in operation therefore the tithing system for its sustenance was not retained.

Also, not only is tithing less than the status of a shadow, its a very minute and almost irrelevant part of the law. Jesus said as much in his tirade against the Pharisees (Matt 23:23). The Collosian believers had no tithing system hence Paul didn't need to tell them it was gone. It never existed in their life in the first place.

Tithing did not begin in the Law… true. But once the Law was established, God abolished any receiving of tithes by those who were not authorized to receive them under the Law just like God abolished the act of performing burnt offering rituals on the altar by anybody except a priest.

This means that if Melchizedek was around at the time the Law was instituted, he had to relinquish any right to receiving tithes if indeed it was a form of divine worship (the Levites had taken that privilege) and if Abraham was alive during the law, he could have been struck dead for going near the altar to offer burnt offerings himself (Aaron and his sons had taken over). The right to receive tithes was now given to the Levite; (Num. 18:24,26,28; Neh. 10:37-38) and subsequently, to the widow, the orphan, the stranger within thy gates (Deut. 14:28-29)

One cannot rightly say if Timothy had been a farmer or not.
Scripture is silent. Regardless if he were a farmer or not, Timothy would have known the Law concerning the tithes that God required. “From a child,
thou hast known the Holy Scriptures.” He knew the Scriptures. Tithing was part of the Scriptures he would have known.



Just knowing the wherefores of tithes does not mean he had to tithe (especially if he was not a farmer) If he was not a farmer, though he knew the Scriptures concerning tithes, he would not have had to tithe.



Example: Moses knew what the Scripture said concerning the sacrifices due from a woman who had just given birth. She was to offer a lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offerning. (Lev. 12:6) But Moses was not responsible for offering the lamb and turtledove when Zipporah gave birth to Gershom. Zipporah had to give that sacrifice herself.

Also the English dictionary meaning of tithe is fairly recent and differs greatly from God's required tithe or even the Babylonian tithe of ancient history. This definition entered English language just before 1200AD, a clear 3000 years after its first mention in the bible. God's required tithe has always been of farm and animal products which is consistent with the format incorporated into Christianity at the council of Macon in 585AD.

END RESPONSE TO RHYMEJOHN'S RESPONSE R1

.

Thank you Miwerds for your Response to Rhymeyjohn's post.

I will allow the response to Image's post too. And that will be all for R1.

After this one I trust that there will be no more double posting and thus no need for a double response.

Please, Image and Rhymey should note that they can no longer respond to the issues raised by Candour and Miwerds in the R1 posts. Posting on R1 ends with Candour's coming post. I remind the participants that the steps for response on each points are:

1. Presenting... by the originator of a point

2. Rebutting ... of this point by the opponent

3. Response to Rebutall... by the originator

4. Response to Response ...by the opponent

If Image and Rhyme have anything to respond to the above posts by Miwerds and the coming post by Candour, they will have to wait and probably present it with latter points as the discussion progresses.

No limit has been given to how much text a post shall be; so participants are encouraged to argue their points in an exhaustive manner, because they may not have the opportunity to do it when their opportunity has gone.

Thank you Gentle men.