We'll send in our reply before 10pm today by the grace of God.

Thank you

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE R6


Our brothers say: “The law qualifies under ALL SCRIPTURE, and the man of God has the privilege of using it and other scriptures as the Spirit of God leads.” And we’re forced to ask if the Holy Spirit will lead you into distorting, misusing and disregarding the express law of God? For instance, can the Holy Spirit lead you to designate any other day of the week as the Sabbath day apart from the seventh day(Saturday)? Well some baby Christians think so and regard Sunday(1st day of the week) as their new Sabbath day. They even condemn those who work on Sunday as disobeying God’s Sabbath instructions but are they right? No they are wrong because God NEVER changed his Sabbath day. It still remains the seventh day (Saturday) but because we are NOT under Mosaic law in this dispensation, he doesn’t hold non-observance of Sabbath against us. We know we can worship God on ANY day of the week convenient for us because we have the liberty of the Spirit. For those who wish to be regulated by the Sabbath laws, they’re free to go ahead, but they should refrain from making it a law for other Christians. So it is with the Tithe. God knows what he called tithe, he also remembers those he willed it to and they are the Levites, widows, fatherless and strangers. THERE’S NO SCRIPTURE IN THE WHOLE BIBLE THAT SAYS HE CHANGED THIS LIST. If you give tithes to any category apart from those God listed, you might as well have given it to a thief, a policeman, a shaman or a sorcerer. It makes no difference to God because you were not giving his tithe anyway. This is why criminals, ritualists and fraudsters have no problem mounting pulpits today to collect tithes, because there’s nothing holy about the tithes being paid in churches today. God clearly stated what his holy tithes were (Lev 27:30-34) and he also enumerated the beneficiaries (Num 18:21,24,26-28; Deut 14:22-29).

Again, we have no problem affirming that the entirety of God’s Word speaks to us. It speaks to Mark each time he pushes the button on his Audio Bible. Not only does he hear the voice of Alexander Scourby reading the Word of God to him, he can hear what God is saying to him as well just as the word of God speaks to Candour when he too picks up his bible and reads. Concerning God’s Holy tithe, God’s Word tells us it was
1. The seed of the land
2. The fruit of the trees
3. Of the flocks and herds it was every tenth animal to pass under the rod.

Further, we hear that God’s tithes were eaten by the Levites, the widows, the orphans, the strangers visiting the city, and yes, it was also eaten by the tither and his family as well. we hear the words of Jesus, who told the scribes and Pharisees that the tithes they were giving were agricultural. we hear the words of Jesus when He told them that they were to tithe “these things” which is speaking of the things he mentioned in His address to them i.e., mint, rue, cumin, anise, all manner of herbs. In other words, we hear the words of Jesus when He told the Pharisees to tithe their agricultural products. What we don’t hear is any instruction for man to tithe his wages, carpentry products etc. Well, we take that back. We do hear one command for man to tithe his money. But that command is not coming from the Word of God. Nor is it coming from the Holy Spirit. Rather, it is coming from the heart of men who want Christians to tithe money when God gave us no such command

Yes, we do listen to the Word of God on a regular basis and there is no command in Luke 11:42 for us to tithe anything other than edibles, neither is there any such command in Matt 23:23. We have asked over and over again for the verse in the Bible that says we are to tithe anything other than farm products and Consistently we are given verses that pertain to an agricultural tithe commandment. The tithers consistently take us to the Law to prove a tithe that is nowhere found in the Law.
We would agree that there is nothing wrong with being a Pharisee but we expect the Pharisee not to be like the ones holding sway during the time of Jesus. All they were teaching for doctrines were empty commandments of men and when they do, their worship is in vain

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men

Once more, see the scripture where God mentioned a tithe law FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME and it’s strictly Agric produce.

Leviticus 27:30-33 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed

There are several important things that we must point out from the above scripture

[b]1. God said, “All the tithe of the land”. “All the tithe of the land” is referring to agricultural. We know this because of the words that follow.
2. God said, “Whether of the seed of the land”. Seed of the land is speaking of the agricultural produce; i.e., garden vegetables
3. God said, “Or of the fruit of the tree”. Again, this is clearly agricultural. It is speaking of dates, figs, pomegranates, etc..
4. God said, “It is the LORD’s”. “It” refers to the seed of the land and the fruit of the tree mentioned in this same sentence. God said all the tithe that He mentioned above belonged to Him.
5. God said, “It is holy unto the LORD.” The word “holy” is translated from the Hebrew word “qodesh”. It means “sacred, set apart.” A tenth of the seed of the land and the fruit of the tree was to be set apart for God.
6. God said, “If a man will redeem ought of his tithe.” The word redeem means “to buy back.” The farmer who grew a field of barley had the privilege of buying back his tithe if he so chose to do.
7. God said that the tithe of the flocks and herds was “every tenth animal to pass under the rod.” This is self explanatory. And, as evident still is speaking of farming; in this case, farming animals.
8. God said the animal tithe could not be bought back by the tither[/b]

Even with all these proofs, our brothers insist that money was tithed and for proof, they run to a parable… Not something that happened in real life, but a parable that Christ used to illustrate the emptiness of the religion practiced by a Pharisee

Luke 18:9-14 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for everyone that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted

Christ said that the Pharisee said he tithed of all his income.This parable wasn’t meant to glorify or enforce tithes; it was used in pointing out the self-righteousness of the Pharisees. He told a story to illustrate that self-righteousness.There is not one instance in the Word of God that says a Jew actually tithed everything under the law … except in a parable of a self righteous Pharisee. A parable is a story that uses real people or real objects to illustrate a spiritual truth. The truth was not that there was a Pharisee that tithed everything. THE TRUTH CHRIST WAS PASSING ACROSS WAS THAT GOD CHERISHED HUMILITY AND DESPISED PRIDE. Did this Pharisee actually tithe everything or was he even faithful to tithe at all? Its highly doubtful if the appraisal of their life done by Christ himself is anything to go by.

Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not

They were master liars who say and boast of plenty things to put yokes on their listeners. They boast of how strict they observe law even adding their own commandments to God’s laws and they package these laws to inflict burdens on people.

Matthew 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers

Is that the example our brothers wish to follow? John the Baptist called them a generation of vipers (Matt 3:7) and our Saviour said they say but don’t do what they say, therefore what makes our brothers believe the slimy hypocrite actually gave tithes at all or even fasted as he said? We doubt if that is a worthy example to pattern the Christian life after.

Our brothers say they don’t want to bring BC and AD into the discussion because want to discuss tithes from a biblical perspective, that worldviews are not necessary. Yet, it is the world that has invented the monetary tithe requirement doctrine. As we have demonstrated over and over and over again, the Word of God gives absolutely no instruction for man to tithe his money. The Monetary Tithe Requirement Doctrine was invented by American Christians in the 1800’s after the Catholics had reawakened Agricultural tithes in 567AD to be given to NON LEVITICAL PRIESTS. It is not taught anywhere in the pages of God’s Holy Word.

Our brothers say the Holy Spirit did not ask Christians not to tithe but does the Holy Spirit need to specially ask the Christians not to tithe when he clearly instructed that they SHOULD NOT BE BURDENED OR ASKED TO OBSERVE MOSAIC LAW. Is the tithe no longer a part of Mosaic law? The law of tithe is not more important than the law of the various feasts and they all belong to the Mosaic law. Hear the word of God again

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, Saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;[29]That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication

Whether for Salvation or ‘it’s the safest thing to do’ or ‘to fulfill all righteousness’, the Holy Spirit clearly instructed the Jerusalem council to refrain from asking Gentile Christians to adhere to Mosaic law and Tithes is still clearly of the law.
Our brothers keep saying they know we don’t tithe to be saved but what exactly do they mean whenever they say tithing is the safest thing to do? Is that not a stylish way to say what the Jews and Pharisees said boldly in the verse below?

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved

And reemphasized again?

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses

Of course the Pharisees in verse 5 still believed the Gentiles couldn’t be saved without adhering to Mosaic law otherwise why would Peter say the below?

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they

Some Jewish Christians at Jerusalem believed that gentiles couldn’t be saved without adhering to Mosaic law but the holy Ghost countered them immediately. GENTILE BELIEVERS WERE NOT REQUIRED TO OBSERVE PRACTICES IN THE LAW. This is also made clear in the following references Rom 7:1-4; Gal 3:10,24-25. We must remind our readers once again that the Apostle Paul, writing under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, wrote that we are not under the Law, but under Grace. Note that he did not say “Ye are not under the penalty of the Law.” No, he wrote, “Ye are not under the Law.” See samples

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law


indeed we are not under the law.

Our brothers go on and on that if we say the law is abolished, why then do we still speak of giving to charity at all, show love etc since they are all in the law. we'll answer by painting this scenario. Assume my brother works in office A and he resumes for work at 8am. He works there for 4 years then gets a better paying job at office B where resumption time is also 8am. Whose rules is he obeying when he resumes at the new office B at 8am? The rules of office A? Of course NO!!. Its only a coincidence that both offices share the same resumption time. He’s effectively obedient to the constitution of the new office B. so it is with our Christian life. If we do things with similarities in the law, it's simply a good coincidence. We DO NOT LOOK to the law for leading. We look to the spirit. The death of Jesus on the cross and his resurrection brought in a better hope, a better testament hence a better constitution. He is the end of the Mosaic law

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and the unprofitableness thereof

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament

We don’t look to the law for lessons on love, There’s teaching on love all over the epistles of the apostles. We don’t look to the law to get lessons on mercy because mercy is an offshoot of love and once again, we have teachings on love by Christ which was repeated in all the epistles of the apostles. Love for my parents makes me honour them, not Mosaic law or are my brothers saying they wouldn’t love and honour their parents if not for Mosaic law? Love is the fulfilling of the law and it’s the one commandment that Christ left for his disciples.

John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.[35]By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you
John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another

And they taught it to us through their epistles in the bible.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
1Peter 3:8 finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
1John 3:23 And this is commandment, that we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Our brothers say that the early Christians paid the Apostles more than 10%. We say this statement is most unfortunate. The early Christians gave willingly and our fellow discussants call it paying. What were they owing that they had to pay? Do you pay what you do not owe? Under the law, the tithe belongs to the Lord. When a Jew gave tithes, he was paying God a rental of the land God gave him. Hence God was justified to call them robbers because the tithe of the land belonged to him under Mosaic law. It was non- negotiable.

Even pastor Chris of CEC agrees that you don’t pay a gift.

God is not a man (Numbers 23:19); He’s God. So you MUST give Him your tithes and your offerings, as God. Actually, you pay your tithe; you don’t give it, as you would your free-will offering. So your tithe is not a gift, because you don’t pay a gift

Culled from ROR devotional of Thursday April 7 2011

So it’s wrong for our brothers to try to belittle the great sacrifice that the saints at Jerusalem did when they gave up everything SOLELY for sharing to those who had needs. Of course, there is absolutely no Scripture to support this claim that ‘they paid 100% to the apostles’. This is a distortion of what the bible recorded the early Christians did. We all know what happened but for the sake of clarity, we’ll reproduce the scripture here

Acts 2:44-45 And all they that believed were together, and had all thing common;[45]And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as everyman had need

Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possesors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,[35]And laid them down at the apostles feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need


The Bible NEVER SAID they were paying the Apostles. What will they be paying them for? what goods or services did they purchase from them? All they did was give a gift to help the poor among them. We don’t have to bend the words to fit into this tithe doctrine. The people gave up resources to give to those who had needs. Its very clearly stated in the above scripture and we don’t expect a living soul not to see it. The money was laid at the apostles feet, it wasn’t for the use of the apostles, rather it says that money was distributed to the saints according as every man had need. Even the collections instructed in the letter to the Corinthians was STRICTLY FOR THE POOR and it was a FREEWILL GIFT, NOT A PAYMENT OF TITHE. Pls let us crosscheck what the bible says

Our brothers say ‘’We now operate under the priesthood after the order of Melchisedek, Jesus Christ being our High Priest. The house of God is still here and there is still service in that house.’’ We agree with them that Christ is our high priest but do they know that even under the law, NO PRIEST pays tithe to the High Priest? If they believe like they say that we are priests under the High Priesthood of Christ, even the LAW they hold so tenaciously to forbids a priest paying tithes to the high priest because PRIESTS DON’T PAY TITHES. This again defeats their argument of Christians paying tithes under whatever guise. Also we are individually temples of God and temples don’t go to temples. When David said he was glad to go the house of God, he meant the place housing the ark of the covenant which later became the temple of Solomon. He sure wont call a synagogue the house of God. Synagogues of the Jews were scattered all over the ancient world, but non qualified as the temple or house of God simply because the ark of the covenant inside the holy of holies was not in any of the synagogues but at the temple in Jerusalem and since its destruction, the Jews know they can't refer to any place as God's house. Today, God dwells in us, NOT IN ANY BUILDING no matter how grand or magnificent. The idea of cathedrals in Christianity started with emperor Constantine( history again). It had nothing to do with the apostles. Having a building for meeting isn’t bad but we should be careful how we elevate that building to a sacred status because our church buildings aren’t sacred or holy. We are the sacred and holy people who congregate in those buildings. So the idea of needing tithes because theres still service in the house of God is wrong. There’s only one place where God needed a sacred tribe to work for him and that is the temple at Jerusalem.

Our brothers say ‘’ What the holy Ghost seemingly forgot to tell ALL the apostles, what He could not tell Oyedepo, Oyakhilome, Kumuyi, Adeboye,’’ we have deliberately refrained from mentioning the names of men who gather crowds in their denominations every week because they are unimportant to this discussions. However we wish to know why each of those men mentioned above disagree on almost all aspects of Christianity except the tithe and a few other places? How come only Oyedepo and Adeboye among the four seem to be able to minister in each other’s ministry and even then there are still vast differences in their beliefs and approach to Christianity? We know the Holy Ghost isn’t confused so we ask if these leaders are confused?

Also, our brothers accuse us of exaggerating the fear factor deployed in preaching of tithes. See what Pastor Adeboye wrote in his devotional of 29th September 2013

Moreover, restitution silences devourers. In Malachi 3:8-11, God said all His children who are robbing Him in tithes and offerings have violated His covenant, and therefore are under a divine curse. However, He says if they will restitute their ways, He will personally rebuke the devourer for their sakes and open the windows of Heaven to them and give them a blessing they will be unable to contain. There are two type of devourers – the ones sent by the devil (John 10:10) and the ones sent by God. To deal with the devourers sent by the devil, simply resist him and he will flee from you as long as you are in right standing before God. But to deal with the devourers sent by God, it is through restitution. You will have to cry to God for forgiveness and thereafter undo what made Him to send the devourers in the first place. Do you owe God in tithes, offerings, thanksgiving or vows? Ask for forgiveness and go ahead and pay what you owe. If it is in tithes, also add 20% as interest being the penalty for eating your tithes (Leviticus 27:31).

Do our brothers now see that we didn't exaggerate anything? Do we assume our brothers agree with the theory propounded above? Could that be the holy Ghost speaking there as well?

END

PRESENTATION M6


Blessings and Curses

The Blessings and Curse associated with tithing was not ill health, loss of job, mechanical problems, etc. (Malachi 3:10-12)

Malachi 3:7-11 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

The LORD told Malachi that those who brought the tithes into the storehouse would see rain fall upon the Earth, the fields bring forth crops in abundance, and locusts would be stayed from destroying the crops. This is contrary to what many tithe teachers preach and teach from their pulpits today

The curse associated with not tithing was destruction of crops and a holding back of the needed rain. Nothing else.

1. God said if one tithed, He would “open the windows of Heaven and pour out a blessing" that the tither would find he did not have enough room to receive that blessing.

The “windows of Heaven” is first mentioned in the book of Genesis, where God opened the windows of Heaven and caused rain to fall upon the Earth for the very first time.

Genesis 7:11-12 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

The promised rains in Malachi would water the fields and cause them to bring forth so great a harvest that there would not be room enough to store it all. This means barns would be full, silos would be full, storehouses for grains would be full… and still there would be food left over…. If only the Priests, (those to whom God was speaking to in Malachi 3 ) would bring the tithes into the storehouse.

The promise associated with obedience to tithing clearly shows the blessing God is speaking of is material and not spiritual.

2. The curse associated with not tithing was drought and insects that ate what little grew in the farmer’s fields. It was not ill health, mechanical problems, loss of job, God taking their money because they did not tithe, etc..

So many today, when teaching the Church members that they are to tithe, run to Malachi 3 and say, “See here, God says you are robbing Him if you don’t tithe your money.” “God says here in Malachi 3 that if you tithe your money, He will give you abundant blessings.” Some pastors even affirm that YOU CANNOT PROSPER FINANCIALLY AS A CHRISTIAN UNLESS YOU SURRENDER 10% OF YOUR INCOME TO THE CHURCH. This is obvious falsehood. One only need look at those poor families all over the world who tithe their money and remain in poverty to see that Malachi 3 is not speaking of tithes of money. Otherwise, we would see those poor tithers receiving such an abundance that they would come out of their poverty. “I will… pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.”

If only those who are being told to tithe their money would just open their eyes to the reality that God was not speaking of tithes of money, they might be freed from the bondage that they are in when they bow to the monetary tithe requirement doctrine.

The monetary tithe requirement doctrine is not a doctrine of blessing for the poor tither at all. Rather, it is a doctrine of continued poverty.

See the promises of God for us in the new testament

Romans 8:32 [/b]He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

[b] Phillipians 4:19 [/b]But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus

[b] Heb 13:5 [/b]Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee

God doesn’t need us to pay him before he blesses us or meet our basic needs. We just need to trust and believe he’s faithful and as we go about our daily works, we’ll see him show up in our situations.

[b]END

Our reply will come in by the end of today. We want to use the opportunity to remind us of some of the rules of the thread. In particular we restate

1. During the discussion there shall be no insults, name calling,
maligning, critic of churches or ministers, or any intentional bid to
make an opponent look bad.

9. All points to be presented must be backed up by the Holy Bible,
the one accepted by most non-Catholic churches.

Image123: Our reply will come in by the end of today. We want to use the opportunity to remind us of some of the rules of the thread. In particular we restate
1. During the discussion there shall be no insults, name calling,
maligning, critic of churches or ministers, or any intentional bid to
make an opponent look bad.
9. All points to be presented must be backed up by the Holy Bible,
the one accepted by most non-Catholic churches.

Hello brother. Just to let you and everyone know we are aware and will stick to the rules. We've not in any way violated them. Ministers referenced by us was because your team brought their names into the discuss and we believe you'll agree we did not insult or call any of them names.

However, we will take note once again

God bless

Image123:

Our reply will come in by the end of today. We want to use the opportunity to remind us of some of the rules of the thread. In particular we restate

1. During the discussion there shall be no insults, name calling,
maligning, critic of churches or ministers, or any intentional bid to
make an opponent look bad.

This is very correct Image123. But I have a feeling you have more to say on this than just quoting the rule.

Let me say that I have noticed something I would call "a little attack" from both sides in the presentations so far. It has been difficult for me to wade in and ask for caution as both sides have been equally guilty. Especially with this resort to "our opponent say...", etc. I had hoped that one of the participants will complain but since no one did, I assumed we could "stomach" it.

Now, I believe that this sort of thing cannot be avoided in a so called discuss that looks in every way like a debate. I will however enjoin our participants to tone down the volume a bit, as we all trust God to help us present our views without "attacking". Another thing, along these lines, is that these sort of things cannot be completely eradicated in a discuss like this. When we volunteered to be part of the discuss, we should have factored it in; in spite of the rules. Let us all play the "man" and be large hearted; trusting God to help us overlook supposed insults, while we try to make out points. If however, we cannot "stomach" it, let us make our complaints known with references to the exact issue of complaint.

So far we have discussed 12 points out of twenty; and the fact that we have not abandoned ship and called it quit shows that God Himself is in this discourse and will help us to reach conclusions that will glorify his kingdom at the end.

Again, I want to thank Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Candour and Mark Miwerds for this very sacrificial work of discussing the biblical tithes with us all. May the New Year grant all of your desires and bring even more.

Image123:
9. All points to be presented must be backed up by the Holy Bible,
the one accepted by most non-Catholic churches.

This is very true, again, as the discuss was intended to be biblical based. However, it does not out-law the fact that some participants can refer to verifiable documents beyond scriptures to lend credence to their position. As long as those documents can be verified, especially online, I believe we can accept them. No academic study anywhere in the world bases its proof on one source alone; including theological studies. This is not an academic discourse; we know. But, it is a discuss all the same and anything that will make it rich and not parochial is welcome. I have noticed that participants have not taken advantage of this but we should so that our audience can be better enlightened, many of whom are not necessarily bible students.

REBUTTING M6

We thank God for how far we've gone in this discussion. Like we say, we do hope that we are all learning as against 'shifting goal posts'. Thus far, we've emphasized that one reason and foundation why we take all God's Word serious is that ALL Scripture is inspired and PROFITABLE, among many things, for doctrine and for instruction. Doctrine is not limited to some scriptures but to ALL Scripture. We need to note this as we form our doctrines, study and views concerning the knowledge of God and His Word. Mark and Candour have stated that "The Blessings and Curse associated with tithing was not ill health, loss of job, mechanical problems". We want to say that God is not limited and was not limited, being the same yesterday, today and forever. He is not limited in what He can do, how He can reward and how He can punish.
Isa 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

BTW, ill health, loss of job, mechanical problems are not blessings as it were. Now, if a farmer does not have an harvest, i think in my little experience that that would lead to loss of jobs, and ill health, and even mechanical problems. Problems are related, it seems.
If you've seen problem before, you'll notice that it does not respect grammar or letter.

Nonetheless, our friends have tried to use Malachi 3 to defend their reason for not tithing. They are not tithing because blessings and curses associated with tithing was not ill health, loss of job, mechanical problems, and their reference is Malachi 3. Well, to be fair on the Bible, when God speaks, He has no special preferences or partiality for farmers. The mature audience is expected to understand that what is applicable for farmers is for everybody. Sowing and reaping is not limited to farming or agriculture in Bible language/speak. Harvest time and seedtime is not just about food and edibles. This is seen all over scriptures, it is easier to see and observe this than this miracle of not seeing it. Let me quickly give a few instances.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Here was God speaking to Adam. Imagine if we say the blessing and curse associated with the fall of man was not ill health, loss of job, mechanical problems. That should make sense right? At least, it would for our good friends. At least, He's talking about the ground, eating, thorns and herbs and bread. On a serious note, we do hope that everyone knows that the scope is more than that. Farmers are not the only ones bearing the brunt today.
Observe this passage below.
Exo 23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Luk 11:3 Give us day by day our daily bread.

The Exodus passage is talking to the whole nation of God's people for many generations. Can you imagine if one was dogmatic about the interpretation, to insist that the promised blessing for this people serving God is for farmers, or for food only. What happens to carpenters, lawyers, blacksmiths, accountants, pharisees and scribes, that serve the Lord their God? he will bless the farmers alone? Or food alone? This kind of bread and butter thing, i do not think that is what we should limit it to. Breaking bread from house to house, i'm sure Goshen my friend will agree strongly here with me, it is not just talking about edibles. Praying give us this day our daily bread, encompasses more than bread and fish. It affects every profession and everyone who puts their trust in God. When you bring the tithes into the storehouse, the promise is that of a good harvest. Harvest is not limited to agricultural produce. harvest is simply output, proceeds, income. What a man sows is what he reaps. You do not only reap agricultural produce. Anyone looking for a good harvest needs to sow well. It would have being thought that this is very simple and basic enough for anyone to understand and grasp. Its unfortunate, the rigidity and the limitations we place on the Word that it fails to bear fruit. And when i say bear fruit, its not just edibles, please. The world itself is God's field, and when harvest time comes, God will not be looking out for just agricultural crops. As we evangelise the world, let us note that the harvest is plenty, and the field is white already. This is language so simple, i imagined that we would all understand it.
Joh 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

Jesus spoke to fishermen about becoming fishers of men. Is there nothing for a christian lecturer or doctor to learn from such a passage? Is that passage only applicable to people in the riverine areas, or in the fishing occupation? We have already explained, and it has not being refuted, that the isreal society was an agrarian one. By that, we mean that the major economy had to do with agriculture. Everyone was involved. Agriculture was their life, it was what made their world go round, it was their measure of hardwork, of success, of prosperity, of life. Today, they say money i.e paper money makes the world go round. In Jesus/Bible days, that was not the case. it was not uncommon for a grown man not to have money/silver. Peter and John had no silver and gold available at a time. Even Jesus had no silver to offer tribute at a time, but had to provide from a fish's mouth. The point is that it was not as relevant as today. Folks were rich in cattle and sheep. Rich men were building barns and larger barns. The description of being rich had to do with agric produce, that was their main measure of wealth. So, when God is talking of prosperity or poverty, these are the terms that you would usually find. This affects the whole nation, not just farmers. And BTW, it would be very difficult to assert that every family was not into farming of some sort. Even in today's societies, if you go to the rural places, you'll see that they have their farms irrespective of whatever other profession. That is why you may not need that much money(paper money) in such places. they'd argue with you that one cannot starve in his village or hometown. Someone earning 10,000 in the village may enjoy life more than someone else earning far more in some urban place. Ask corp members. There are doctors, teachers, blacksmiths, scribes etc with farms. It is a similar society tht is called agrarian, and it is such that Israel operated.

When God talks about rain, it is not limited to water. God can send down His blessings as rain i.e using the language and word rain. Ever heard of showers of blessing? That's the picture. It's not limited to water, and BTW blessings is not limited to physical or material things. God rained manna in the wilderness, not just water. God can rain righteousness on the 'thirsty'. Of course, we recall that God can rain fire.
Eze 34:26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.

God is not to be limited in how He chooses to bless or reward obedience. Like we have also said, the blessing of God is multifaceted. It comes through various means. If God is true, and is able to do what He has said, then we safely say that God blesses through tithes. We should note again that blessings don't only come through tithing. i expect someone somewhere to lift the previous sentence without adding the surrounding sentences for clarity. Blessings don't only come through tithing, but blessings come through tithing. Many antitithers would vigorously refuse the bolded, but would gleefully quote the first part(for blackmail). Blessings come through prayers too. Again, let me shout this time. BLESSING IS NOT LIMITED TO MATERIAL OR PHYSICAL THINGS. For illustrations, let me talk about material aspect. God blesses people materially through prayers. There are many people though who are praying and are not materially blessed in a sense. God blesses through hardwork, but there are millions who are working hard and are not materially blessed. God blesses through many means, studying the Word(Joshua 1v8), through righteousness, through diligence and persistence, through honesty, through giving. Tithing is a form of giving, but let me talk about other forms. Many people give, they give to poor, to church, to everything, yet they are not materially blessed. These do not negate the fact that God uses these mediums to bless people. In fact, God even blesses unrighteous and evil people according to Matthew 5v45.

It is another realm and topic or discussion to explain those intricacies. It would be ignorance of scriptures and of the power of God, carnality, to conclude that any promise of God is not yea and amen. Let God be true, but every man a liar.
We have shown earlier and would remind us that money is not just paper money or silver. money is a medium of exchange. Jesus Himself showed that whatsoever His disciples received(including edibles) counted for their pay or wages. When you give, you have paid, and when you pay, you have given. That was the way Jesus the Word understood it.
Luk 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the laborer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

Here , He is equating edibles as pay or salary.
(CEV) Stay with the same family, eating and drinking whatever they give you, because workers are worth what they earn. Don't move around from house to house.
(GNB) Stay in that same house, eating and drinking whatever they offer you, for workers should be given their pay. Don't move around from one house to another.
(WEB) Remain in that same house, eating and drinking the things they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Don't go from house to house.

Whether you earn dollars or edibles, or agric produce. It is your pay, and as a labourer, you are worthy of it. What the apostles got was their pay. The scriptures record that Abraham tithed. The same account is recorded both as giving tithes and paying tithes, it is the same thing. Even under the law, the tithes that the Levites offered was said to be GIVEN.
Num 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer a heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD's heave offering to Aaron the priest.

The pharisee said that he GAVE tithes of ALL that he possessed. So whether you say that you give, or pay, or offer, or render, all that one na english. All that the tithe is, is the tenth of a whole. If the whole is agric produce, the tenth of that whole is a tithe. If the whole is non agric produce, the tenth of that whole is still a tithe. Tithe is tithe in scriptures, there is nothing like monetary tithe, or non-monetarty tithe or whatever such terms. These are all man made terms. A tithe is simply a tenth, or 10% of a whole. There is no bondage in it. Some people give out 100%, and other greater percents than a tenth. Giving is not bondage. There is no bible verse that says that, this is an invention of men, some wisecrack. Sin is bondage, sickness is bondage, affliction is bondage. These are what the Scripture teaches. Giving out 10% of anything is not bondage. God's promises are all over scriptures, and we are expecting many of them, found both in the Old Testament Bible, and in the New Testament bible. Faith is key to receiving, not just location.


END

We'll get in our response before the end of today God willing

Cheers all

Our delays are my fault. I have to have two windows side by side, switching back and forth. I listen to the posts others make on one, and then talk to the other. Listening to a paragraph and responding to that paragraph before I listen to the next. Very time consuming. Stopping and going, stopping and going. One would think I was a sightseer. LOL

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL M6


We thank God for how far he’s brought us in this discussion and we trust him to see us through as we seek to know him more through his word. We think it imperative to remind our audience again that we took our position on the opposite side of the tithe preaching divide because we realized that contrary to the word of God, a lot of lies were being sold to Christians about the whole tithing thing. Chief among these lies are the following

1. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever because you’re a robber.

2. If you don’t tithe, you’ll have devourers like accidents, sickness, job loss, financial backwardness etc but if you do, you’ll have plenty money, sickness free life etc

3. Pay tithe as eternal principle to prove Abraham is your father according to Gen 14 and Heb 7

4. Pay tithe to your pastor because he is senior to you in the order of priesthood of Melchizedek

Our quest for the truth about this issue led to a lot of rich discoveries and those discoveries are what we’ve sought to share with our fellow discussants and the audience of this thread. Whatever conclusions folks reach after this discussion is their choice but everyone should remember that those statements, particularly the two in bold blue colours are EMPTY LIES FROM THE PIT OF HELL. We are very happy that our fellow discussants DO NOT subscribe to the false statements above as they said the following when we first wrote them on this thread

For the life of me, i have NEVER heard any of the above quote preached, except here on nairaland where antitithers keep saying it. i do not agree with any of the four statements above in an exact way. It is either an exaggeration of what may have been said, or perhaps it was never said, like i've never heard any preacher say these

We have no problem with the fact that “all Scripture is given for doctrine.” The problem we have is when one tries to make Scripture that God specifically stated was for the nation of Israel doctrine that every nation is to obey. Using the logic that all Scripture is for doctrine and therefore to be practiced and obeyed, we must re-examine the following passage:

Exodus 32:26-27 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

Hmmm, the Word of God says we should kill our neighbors, our brothers and our friends. After all, the Word is for doctrine, is it not? Of course we are not told by God to kill. Yet God did say “kill.” And all Scripture was given for doctrine. Just as the command was for the Levites to kill in Exodus 32 does not mean we are to kill our neighbors, our friends and our brothers, so also another commandment that was given to the Levites was not for us.

Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

The Levites were given the commandment to take tithe. We were not. Context is very important when studying scripture.

Here’s another,

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Are we to sell everything? Of course not! Jesus was speaking to a certain person… not to us. We are told that to have eternal life, we need to trust Christ. A big problem arises when one says Scripture that was spoken to a specific people is to be observed and obeyed by another group of people. This is exactly what Paul was illustrating in Galatians when he said those who submit to the Law must continue in all things written in the Law. You cannot pick and choose what Laws you think are important... it’s all or none. If one is going to say God wants us to tithe our money because He told the Levites to take agricultural tithes of their brethren, then we must also say that God wants us to kill our neighbors, our friends and our brothers too. That was a command in the Bible just as the command to tithe was in the Bible. After all, all Scripture is given for doctrine.

Another example, God told Hosea to marry a har.lot. Are we to specifically look for har.lots to marry also today? Again, God didn’t tell us to marry har.lots. He was speaking to a specific person. When the Bible indicates God is speaking instruction to a specific person or peoples, it means that those words are meant for them to follow. God did not tell Gentiles to kill anyone. God did not tell the Gentiles to marry a harlot. God did not tell the Gentiles to tithe. God did not tell pastors to collect tithes on behalf of Jesus Christ.

Our reason for not tithing is not due to what is written in Malachi 3 rather, it is because of what is written in Leviticus 27:30-34, Hebrews 7:5 and a host of other scriptures on tithe. The only instructions that God gave for anyone to tithe was for the children of Israel to tithe to the Levites, and subsequently the Levites to bring a tithe of the tithe to the Temple storehouse. We have proven this over and over and over using Scripture. There is no other commands concerning tithes in the Word of God than for people of the land of Israel to tithe. There is no indication that God amended that tithe law anywhere in the Bible to include all people of all nations nor is there any indication in the Word of God that God changed that tithe to a tithe of money. Gen 13:1 told us Abraham was rich in cattle, gold and silver. This was at least 400 years before the law was given so the excuse that God mentioned farm products because the society was agrarian holds no water. People have always had other occupations since biblical times. Even today, we have more of the world’s population into Agric than any other occupation, why even Candour’s younger sister is a trained administrator but runs a poultry and livestock farm. If God demands a tithe from her today, it will be strictly on the farm proceeds, not from her income as an administrator because that’s what Lev 27:30-33 clearly states.

The curses associated with the disobedience of Adam have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the curses pronounced in Malachi 3 for the Israelites not tithing their agricultural products. For one thing, God’s Word clearly tells us that the whole world was affected by man’s sin in the garden but the sin of not obeying the command to tithe did not affect the whole world… it only affected Israel. Under the Law, God did not punish the entire world for the sins of Israel. No, He punished Israel alone.

The Scriptural gymnastics are quite confusing. The topic here is supposed to be about tithing and yet so many verses are brought into the discussion to prove tithing that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING whatsoever to do with tithing. One may as well use the fact that Jesus told Judas, “What thou doest, do quickly”, and “Judas went out and hanged himself”, adding to them Jesus’ command to the Lawyer, “Go thou, and do likewise” to justify suicide. The verses have absolutely nothing to do with each other, yet if the reader does not rightly divide, the reader can justify the taking of his own life. It is the same with this modern-day monetary tithe doctrine imposed on the Gentile Churches. If the verses speaking of tithes are kept in their proper context, it is easy to see that God does not require a monetary tithe… never did but when the Scripture is not rightly divided, and the pulling Scripture out of its Biblical context is allowed, one can
easily come up with a monetary tithe for the Gentile Church. God blessed all who served Him. We have never denied this fact. But God never expected a monetary tithe from anybody. The command for it is just not there. Carpenters, Lawyers, Brickmasons, etc., they all had a purpose in Israel. Just as the farmer and herder had a purpose. His farm yielded meat, fruit and vegetables for him and his family, but for all who needed to eat who had chosen other occupations as well. They all had their purpose in Israel. But it was only the farmers and herders whom God required to tithe to the Levites. If a Jewish carpenter, a Jewish mason or a Jewish lawyer decides to have a farm or keep a herd, ONLY then could he pay tithe FROM HIS FARM ONLY because God’s tithes were from Agric produce only. It was only the Levites whom God required to bring tithe of tithes to the Temple Storehouse.

Important truths can be learned from any book, chapter or verse of the Bible… from beginning to end. But not all things applied to all peoples. We have clearly demonstrated this. Over and over in the New Testament, the Apostle Paul tells us that we are not under the Law, but under grace. He tells us that we are not to submit to the Law. If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the Law. The opposite can be said. If ye are under the Law, ye are not led by the Spirit.

As in Malachi 3, Ezekiel 34:26 is also speaking of a natural rain. It is not speaking of some “spiritual rain’’ Immediately following verse 26, there is a verse 27 which reveals the rain will water the trees and the land and they will bear fruit. Once the land begins producing again, the people will certainly be blessed. But it is not because of a “spiritual rain.” Rather the physical rain causes fruit and vegetables to grow for the people. In every instance that the Hebrew word “geshem” is used in the Old Testament, it is speaking of a literal rain to water the Earth. From Genesis 7:12 to Zechariah 14:17. Ezekiel 34:26 is no different. It is speaking of physical rain to water the Earth.

We are told that the blessings for tithing are not limited to material or physical things but wherever we look in the Word of God at any given promise of blessings for tithing, the evidence is overwhelming to the fact that it is a physical blessing. Do we receive spiritual blessings today? According to Ephesians 1:3 we have already received all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus. Why the need to seek more through tithing when we have already received all?

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Let the reader take note that the Word does not say God has given us some spiritual blessings now, and will give us more if we tithe our money. No, he has already given us all spiritual blessings. I have already been blessed with all spiritual blessings and the monetary tithe was not the cause of it.The promises of God are indeed “Yea and Amen.” And as we have pointed out, the promise that God gave to those who would bring the tithes into the storehouse was:

Malachi 3:10-12 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

1. A physical rain
2. An overabundance of crops
3. Crops surviving to full harvest.
4. All nations seeing Israel as a delightsome land
5. All nations calling Israel blessed.

It’s all there in black and white for the reader to see and it is all physical blessings… not spiritual, but physical.

In the instance of Luke 10:7, the reader must take into account that this was a specific command for the seventy that Jesus sent out. They had money, but they were told by the Lord not to take their money with them. If they had no money, Jesus would not have had to instruct them to carry no money with them. Notice:

Luke 10:3-8 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:

Who did the hiring in that passage? Was it the people to whom the seventy were sent witnessing? Or was it the Lord Jesus Christ Himself? Why, it was the Lord! He sent them for a work. Their reward for obeying the Lord was being fed and being given drink by certain people. Jesus did not tell the seventy to go look for jobs. No, He sent them on a mission to preach the kingdom of heaven. He did the hiring of those seventy. He would lay it on the hearts of people to give food and drink to the seventy.

But notice also, while these seventy were seen doing the work of the ministry, they were NEVER asked by Jesus to receive tithes. They are never seen receiving tithes of the people they were preaching to. This is an important lesson. None received tithes who were not given the tithes in the first place irrespective of whether they worked for God or not. Elijah did not receive tithes, John the Baptist did not receive tithes, Jesus did not receive tithes, the apostles did not receive tithes. All these wonderful people who worked for God including our Lord and savior DID NOT RECEIVE TITHES because they were not Levites working at the temple. The one given the tithe were the Levites (Numbers 18:24) and the tithe of tithes to the priest (Numbers 18:26,28).

When Luke 10:7 is read in its context, it tells an entirely different story than what it appears when read alone. That is why it is of utmost importance to take notes when one hears a pastor preaching the Word. If one takes notes, one can compare those notes with a personal Bible study at home to make sure verses such as Luke 10:7 above are not pulled out of their Scriptural or historical context. How does Luke 10:7 compare with tithes, one may ask? The answer is obvious… it does not. Tithes were strictly agricultural according to God’s commandments. God said all the tithe of the land was His and they were holy (Leviticus 27). He did not say some of the tithes, He said ALL THE TITHES OF THE LAND. And then qualified what He meant when He said ALL THE TITHES OF THE LAND.

Again, Jesus hired the seventy and he laid it in the heart of the people they are sent to for their pay but they are not paid money neither were they paid tithes. No, they are simply given food and drink to eat while they are in the city. The passage has nothing whatsoever to do with tithing and really didn’t even need to be brought into the discussion as proof for tithing.

Again, Abram did tithe. We have no reservations when admitting this. But what Abram tithed was spoils of war… pagan spoils. At this point, I would like to challenge the reader to open his or her Bible and to find a verse that states that God allowed pagan spoils as tithes under the Law. The facts are, the only time we see pagan tithes given outside the Law is in the case of Abram’s tithe to Melchizedek. Does the reader really believe that God wants us to return to a time when, according to what we have written in the Word of God, the only tithes given to a Priest of the Most High God were pagan? No, we are not told to return to Abram’s tithe. We have been brought into a New Covenant. Nowhere in that New Covenant, (which begins after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and His subsequent sprinkling of His blood on the Mercy Seat in Heaven) do we find one single solitary command or instruction for Gentile Churches to tithe anything
whatsoever.

The Pharisee that said he gave tithes of all that he possessed was in a parable. He was part of an illustration. Tithing was not the message, as we so rightly pointed out earlier in this discussion. The word “tithe” does mean “a tenth.” And if we were to cherry-pick and focus on that one word alone, we would be greatly mishandling the Word of God. We cannot focus on that one word alone, for it is clearly qualified by many other words.

Leviticus 27:30-33 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

As the reader can clearly see, the word “tithe” in Leviticus 27: is qualified by 112 other words in the passage.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

All Scripture is profitable. Not just one word. Just as one piece of a jigsaw puzzle does not tell one what the entire finished puzzle looks like, one word out of one hundred-twelve does not tell the whole story.

God clearly states in the passage above that all the tithes of the land were agricultural. They were consistently agricultural from Leviticus 27 to Hebrews 7 when the Levites were still observing the commandment to take tithes of their brethren ACCORDING TO THE LAW.

Christians have no command to pay tithes, monetary or agricultural. Christians have no command to take tithes and SURELY CHRISTIANS ARE UNDER NO CURSE OR PUNISHMENT WHATSOEVER FOR NOT PAYING TITHES



END

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE M6


Like we have mentioned a couple of times already, we are not reacting but pro-active. Decision to tithe is not based on the opinions of men and lots of lies or abuses. We humbly realise that most of christianity has being abused and misused in one form or the other. We still believe in God and in the Bible despite all the abuses and lots of lies about God and the Bible and its contents. We have decided to be founded on the solid Rock(the Word), not on lots of lies being sold anywhere. We encourage our friends to follow the same route and to realise that the whole world lieth in wickedness. Mark and Candour have said that "The problem we have is when one tries to make Scripture that God specifically stated was for the nation of Israel doctrine that every nation is to obey." While we respect their position, we want to state emphatically that this is not the Bible's position. The Bible is for every nation and man, it is not just written to just the nation of Israel. listen to Paul and note what the Holy Ghost said about ALL SCRIPTURES.

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(BBE) But is now made clear; and by the writings of the prophets, by the order of the eternal God, the knowledge of it has been given to all the nations, so that they may come under the rule of the faith;
(GNB) Now, however, that truth has been brought out into the open through the writings of the prophets; and by the command of the eternal God it is made known to all nations, so that all may believe and obey.
(GW) but now is publicly known. The everlasting God ordered that what the prophets wrote must be shown to the people of every nation to bring them to the obedience that is associated with faith.

Breaking News, the knowledge of it has been given to all the nations. The early christians all read and searched the Scriptures, both Old and New Testament Bible.
By some twist of fate, Mark and Candour have said "Using the logic that all Scripture is for doctrine and therefore to be practiced and obeyed. one says Scripture that was spoken to a specific people is to be observed and obeyed by another group of people. ", and then they proceeded to form the bulk of their response around this insinuation. THERE IS NO PLACE WHERE WE SAID THAT ALL SCRIPTURE IS TO BE PRACTICED AND OBEYED. This is why we have said it that we seem not to be paying attention, or perhaps are not reading or learning from what Image123 and Rhymeyjohn have been saying. We have actually stated AT LEAST two times on this thread/discussion, that all scripture is not to be practiced. Now that Mark and Candour are seeing that light(as it were), it seemed all new like some special revelation to some fellows on the sister thread. Some almost broke into tongues when they read it. Here is what we said as early as page 1

i do not advocate that all scriptures must be practiced. That in itself will be impracticable as there are some scripture not meant for practice. for instance,
Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Tamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
What can one practice with that? Nothing, i suppose. The point that i stated and which remains valid is that all scripture is inspired by God, ALL, including the one i just quoted. And all scripture is profitable, even if an individual does not know the usefulness, or if it is not useful at a particular time.

Here is yet another quote from us on [url]page 5[/url] talking about Numbers 31 which our friends were advocating that tithers should practice.

In this instance, there were specific instructions for what to do concerning the Midianites. Specific instructions are not general instructions, although they may be emulated. Like God told Moses specifically to speak to the Rock, or to stretch his rod over the Red Sea, or as they lifted up Moses' hands while the army was fighting. These instances are not laws for every season or event. Yes, it can be repeated, but it is not a general rule to be obeyed by everyone facing such scenerio. Joshua did not stretch his rod on river Jordan, he did something else. Elijah did not stretch his rod, he parted Jordan with his cloth. Elisha followed his example. Examples can be followed and as the Holy Spirit leads us, but they are not necessarily laws for the general populace or for all time. Any reader of the Bible knows that the passage above did not become a standard for battle or for spoils. In some other battles, the Israelites had captives of any age.
There were some battles where even the cloth was not to be taken, not to mention human beings. Like the one against Jericho where only Rahab was spared.

This is what we have explained all through the thread. ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God and profitable for doctrine, instruction, correction etc. We in the New covenant are at liberty to follow godly examples in scriptures. mark and candour seem to be making it a rule/command that christians MUST practice what the apostles practiced, and that tithe givers MUST practice all the law. This is what Mark and Candour have been suggesting. We say NO. The Scriptures tell us we are at liberty to follow examples as God gives us grace. We are free to walk in the faith and godliness as seen in scriptures, ALL. Not just new testament Bible but all. We would not remove from the Word of God.

mark and Candour have quoted some passages and asked what can be gained, or if we should practice them. We'd be looking at some of the passages they quoted.
Exodus 32:26-27 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

Today, we are to be with those that are on the Lord's side, not on doctrine or theology's side. Folks join sides because of theology, like that is what saves them. He don;t believe in hell, i don;t believe in hell, we are brothers. That is nonsense. We are to be on the Lord's side, not on tither's side, or antitither's side. Like Jesus said (Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbade him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part )

Follow follow is not the proof that we are on the Lord's side. Preaching together or on the same pulpit is not the proof, like our friends tried to imply earlier talking about Adeboye, Oyedepo, Kumuyi and Oyakhilome. Today, if a person is not on the Lord's side, here is the attitude Jesus said to give such.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Pretty much the same attitude as found in Exodus 32v26,27. Be willing to forsake for God's sake, cut off for God's sake. Doctrine is to be formed from ALL Scripture, not from just one verse without consideration for other verses. Mark and Candour have insisted on limiting their teaching on tithe on some scripture, we are taking all. Here is another passage they quoted.

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

They are asking if we are to sell everything. It appears that the context is lost in asking that question. What happened in this passage is that a man had come to ask Jesus "Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" He was asking WHAT TO DO to be justified, to be saved, to have eternal life. He wanted to DO something to be saved. That was the Old covenant/agreement. To be saved or justified through the Old covenant, the agreement is that you obey ALL the commandments, which is humanly impossible. And Jesus told him the conditions of the old covenant, which is keep the commandments. He thought he had kept all, Jesus in His omniscience simply showed him one that he had not kept. This is basic evangelism 101, making the sinner realise his sin. The one thing needful may be different for each individual. Some individuals may have 10 things needful. This was the point of the whole passage. he is showing that no man can keep all the laws TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE, to be saved. There is none good except God. ALL Scripture is profitable and inspired by God. And if we humble ourselves and ask God's Spirit, He would show us the profit and application of His word(rhema) at every instance. The New Covenant requirement for justification, salvation, eternal life is to believe in Him i.e faith.

Some asked about matthew 8
Mat 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, show thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Is it applicable or profitable, of course. Is it to be practiced, maybe or maybe not. ALL Scripture are exemplary in their own godly way. We've used Moses, Joshua, Elisha and Elijah dividing the sea to explain this. Here in matthew, Jesus said the leper should go show himself to the priest. that is important and necesary for a law abiding citizen. In their society, the priest determined whether you were clean or unclean and fit to live in the society. It's like getting a visa, even though the earth is the Lord's and He is your Father. Following Christ is not a license to lawlessness or recklessness against civil and spiritual authority. We are to obey the laws of where we are as much as they do not contradict or contravene God's Word.

Mark and Candour say "You cannot pick and choose what Laws you think are important... it’s all or none. " It's funny that they quickly forget this when they are talking about the abolished laws, the enmity. They pick and choose tithes, sabbath, feasts, and they ignore the weightier laws like faith, mercy, love and judgement.

When Mark and Candour say "Our reason for not tithing is not due to what is written in Malachi 3 rather, it is because of what is written in Leviticus 27:30-34, Hebrews 7:5 and a host of other scriptures on tithe. " They are effectively saying that ALL Scripture IS NOT profitable for doctrine. Malachi is not profitable for them, i guess Genesis also is not profitable for them. It is Leviticus 27 and Hebrews 7 that they prefer. This is not the way to form doctrine. When you are forming doctrine, ALL Scripture on the subject matter should be considered and studied. They say that their preferences are the only instructions that God gave. No, that is not correct. ALL Scripture is profitable for INSTRUCTION.(2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness )
We have quoted this verse so much, yet our friends are stating that malachi 3 is not part of their reasons. We'd rather follow the Bible than men. Here are some of ALL Scriptures on tithes directly. This is an example of how to get comprehensive doctrine, instruction and correction from scriptures. Note the basic deductions.
Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
The tenth of the land is referred to as tithe.

Lev 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
The tenth of the herd is referred to as tithe.

Num 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
The tenth part of the cumulative tithe is referred to as tithe.

Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
The tenth part of the increase of the seed is tithe.

2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
The tenth part of all things is tithe.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
The tenth part of of mint and anise and cummin is also referred to as tithe.

Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
The tenth of all is also referred to as tithe.

Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
The tenth part of all possession is also referred to as tithe.

Heb 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
The tenth that was received from Abraham is also referred to as tithe.

And on and on like that. When one studies ALL Scripture on the subject of tithing, one major and irrefutable conclusion is that the tenth is the tithe. This basic fact runs consistently through ALL the passages quoted. Tithe is 10%. This is doctrine, this is instruction. But for one to pick some part, and ignore some part, that is unscriptural, and not in tandem with 2Timothy 3v16. The tithes of Abraham and Jacob are part of ALL Scripture, and they are profitable for instruction and for doctrine. Mark and Candour cannot change it and tell us that they are not God's instruction when Paul said they are profitable for instruction and inspired by God.

We have explained clearly that the Bible time society was agrarian. This is not an excuse, it is a fact and it is yet to be disproved or even challenged. Their wealth was agrarian. Nobody said that silver did not exist. By the way, silver is what the english Bible usually translates as 'money' for clarity and contemporary relevance. We have shown that money is simply a means of exchange. Money is not just silver, or gold, or shekels, or dollars. Money is an accepted medium of exchange. We have demonstrated in the course of this discussion that things other than silver were used as medium of exchange, as pay, as wages, as salary. The average and common means of measuring wealth in Bible times was agrarian, and it is from that wealth that they gave tithes mainly. We have however shown that people gave tithes of ALL, of spoils of war, of all that they possessed, of all things, and as Jacob vowed, of ALL that God gave. We can give tithes when God gives us or increses us. Tithe is simply a tenth or 10% of a whole. It is not tied to agric produce in ALL Scripture. Maybe in many scriptures, but not in ALL Scriptures, and ALL Scriptures remain profitable for doctrine and for instruction, correction in righteousness.

We have shown using Adam's example that God talking about plants and crops does not limit Him to only plants and crops. We have written in English, and we await specific questions in areas not understood, instead of generalisations about gymnastics. We have shown undeniable from different scriptures how agricultural terms are used in a free sense to depict and convey more than just agricultural meanings. BTW, Jesus did not say or even imply that Judas should go and commit suicide. It is shocking how Mark and Candour arrived at that conclusion. The term 'monetary tithe' remains a vain and meaningless phrase pulled out to impress the undiscerning. Money is not limited to paper money, agric produce itself can be money, a accepted medium of exchange. Tithe is simply tithe, a tenth. The phrase is another wisecrack like the saying that "tithing is bondage". Such phrases are not found in the Bible but among theologians and seminarians.
Blessings for obeying God or His commandments are not limited to physical or material blessings. We find it disappointing that anyone would even contest that. God can choose to bless as He pleases. He is limitless. Tithing is in the Word of God, and like other words of God, God can bless the obedient with both material and immaterial blessings. He can give health, long life, peace, favour, joy etc.
Isa 48:18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

As seen above, peace and righteousness are some things God can bless the obedient with. When God says that He has blessed us with all spiritual blessings, it simply means that it is finished as christ said. He has provided it all In Christ. That does not mean we all have or possess it physically. We are not all saved, until we are saved. Salvation is one of such blessings God blessed us with when Christ came. We still grow in grace, in virtue, knowledge, the fruits of the Spirit, perfecting holiness etc. These are all blessings already provided in Christ. Each individual still has to come receive, but God has already provided it. All things are ready, He has given all things that pertain. However, those that thirst have to come and get.
Luke 10 simply shows where Jesus equated what the disciples got as their hire or wages or salary or pay. Whether what they got was edible or not, it was their pay. This is contrary to what Mark and Candour said that the apostles were not paid. Jesus said that what they got was their pay, and that they were worthy of it. If they came to my village and i gave them 100%, it was their pay/hire. If they got 10%, it was their pay or salary. they were worthy of it. The Acts of the apostles records that they got much more than 10%. people who work in the house of God can be given the tithe, as we see this done in scriptures and ALL Scripture is profitable. John baptist and Elijah did not work in the temple. We know though that Elijah received more than 10% from a widow at sometime. from Leviticus 27 to Hebrews 7 is not ALL Scripture. let us be careful, lest we be guility of taking away from the words of the book.


END

R7 to come in before today ends. Sorry for the delay.

I have obtained permission from Mark Miwerds to publish content of my discussion with him on facebook yesterday, here on the tithe discuss. I am offering it here as one of the many "interludes" we have had. While I encouraged that the discussants could come up with such interludes, like testimonies of God's blessings after tithing, etc, only Mark responded to the last one.

Below you will find the content of our discuss on facebook. While we await Image123/Rhymeyjohn on R7

Drummaboy: Hello Ron

Miwerds: Blessings my Brother

Drummaboy: How are you doing?

Miwerds: Sorry I did not catch your post right away. Was listening to your post on the Inviting thread on NL

Drummaboy: no problem

Miwerds: I am blessed. Just woke from a 7 hour needed nap. And how are you and yours doing this wonderful day?

Drummaboy: So what are the plans for the day? I am fine. Getting ready for bed

Miwerds: It is a cold day here today. 25 degrees. I only will go out to walk to the mailbox. I mainly willl listen to my Bible today

Drummaboy: ok. What plans are you making to join a local church; probably one that does not preach the tithe

Miwerds: Sadly, all the Churches in our town are tithe teaching congregations. I have been praying. I pastored for eight years back in the late eighty's to mid-ninety's. The (my) wife is encouraging me to open a home Church and invite neighbor's over for services. I am seeking the Lord's direction as to that possibility. It has been a long time. I had to remove myself from the pulpit due to health issues then. I had problems with my blood pressure that would drop at times I would be preaching. I would literally pass out in the pulpit. I ended up in a wheelchair for four months. I do not have the spells as often, now once or twice a year. But God has been wonderful. He brought me out of that wheelchair and kept me out since 1996. The wheelchair is now a permanent part of the old Church in North Carolina as a reminder to all of the miraculous work of our Lord

DrummaBoy:Thank God

Miwerds: Amen!

DrummaBoy: How long have you held your views on tithing. Sorry I had to answer a call then

Miwerds: The Lord revealed to me that tithes were not for the Church the year I was ordained, 1988. No problem

DrummaBoy: How sir. How did the lord reveal it?

Miwerds: Through the reading of His Word and preparation for a message I was preaching that Wednesday night

DrummaBoy: ok

Miwerds: I was going to preach on the importance of Stewardship, and tithes was to be a part of that message.

DrummaBoy: ok. following

Miwerds: I researched all the verses on tithing, and the Lord began to open my eyes to the fact that there were no mentions of tithing at all following the Gospels... except in Hebrews.

DrummaBoy: following

Miwerds: This caught my attention. I got out my Strong's Greek and looked for other words that were interpreted from the word "apodekatoo, the Greek word meaning tithes

DrummaBoy: following

Miwerds: And none pointed to the monetary tithe at all. I remembered the verses in the New Testament on giving, 2 Corinthians 9:6-7, 2 Corinthians 8:12-13, and Luke 6:38.

DrummaBoy: I know those verses

Miwerds: These all spoke of just giving because of a need. But again, no ,mention of tithing Then the Lord reminded me of Acts 4, where the people sold land hand houses. How they laid the price at the Apostle's feet and distribution was made where the need was. All this is what opened my eyes to the fact that we, as Christians are to be a giving people when we have the means to give.

DrummaBoy: So did you preach this mesage in line with stewardship?

Miwerds: It opened my eyes to the fact that we were never required to receive or give a monetary tithe. I had to eat some "humble pie" that service. I stood before the congregation, a broken man.

DrummaBoy: And what happened?

Miwerds: I told them that I would repay them their money they had given me for tithes for the past five months (that is when I first started preaching the message.

DrummaBoy: ok. And what did they say?

Miwerds: All understood. For the most part, I received great applaud from the congregation. All but three families told me to keep the moneys for the Lord's work.

DrummaBoy: I hope you didn't go broke

Miwerds: Three families took the money that night and they appreciated my honesty. I myself have always been broke. The money itself was in the Church account.

DrummaBoy: You never touched it

Miwerds: I never lost a single member due to the teaching. And the Church flourished in freewill offerings.

DrummaBoy: That was the church you pastored before you left Is the church still there?

Miwerds: Some had been used in bill payment, but it had been constantly replaced over the five month period that I had preached tithes
The Church is still there, yes. And they are a great outreach in the community. Yes, I pastored that Church

DrummaBoy: Can you still go back to to pastoring them now?

Miwerds: The new pastor, who ahs been there since 1996 teaches cheerful giving. He also teaches tithes are not for today

DrummaBoy: Why not attend the church?

Miwerds: If the Lord moves us, I could return as a pastor, or even as an associate pastor.

DrummaBoy: Or its in another town? Ok.

Miwerds: But that is in North Carolina. The Lord would have to move mightily. And I know He can. We live in Mississippi presently
more than 900 miles away

Drummaboy: I see

Miwerds: Due to our disabilities, our finances are extremely low each month. This is why I say the Lord would have to move in order for us to be able to move.

DrummaBoy: Its been great talking with you sir

Miwerds: The privilege has been all mine, my Brother. You are a blessing and an encouragement to me

DrummaBoy: Thank you

Miwerds: You are most certainly welcome. As you can see, my hands are typing at present rather than my voice

DrummaBoy: oh yyou can do too?

Miwerds: yes. I learned where the keys were on the keyboard many years ago when I took a class on typing skills

DrummaBoy: ok

Miwerds: I do occasionally make mistakes, but catch them most of the time.

Today…

Drummaboy: Hello Bro Ron. Do you mind if I share our conversation with friends on nairaland. I was so blessed by it; I believe others could learn from it too

Miwerds: Blessings my Brother. I do not mind you sharing the conversation at all.

Yes, I did give my permission. If my testimony can bless others by my sharing it (or others sharing it) then you are more than welcome to share it anywhere and anytime you deem it necessary to do so.

PRESENTING R7 Our tithing is because Christians today are children of Abraham, and we find tithing a responsible thing to do. (John8:39,Galatians 3:7)

Like Father, like Son. As God said, " A son honoreth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honor? " To be like Christ is tantamount to honouring Christ, and to be like Abraham is relative to honouring the father of faith. Honour is not just lip service. Many world leaders paid lip to Nelson Mandela recently. To truly honour him would be to emulate him. The same way, many people pay lip service to Jesus and His words. They quote His Words but are not interested in doing them. But be ye doers of the word, and not quotershearers only, deceiving who? Here is what God said about Abraham's children, and we ought to let God be true, and not our logic.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

If you were Abraham's children you would do what Abraham did. "If you really were Abraham's children," Jesus replied, "you would do the same things that he did. We all know that one of the things that Abraham did was to give tithes of all.
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

We are made to understand through the epistle of Paul, that believers are children of Abraham. Here it is,
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Christians are offspring of Abraham by faith. Abraham was called out of ‘sin’ first, and he obeyed God, before he later tithed. So also, a sinner must first receive Jesus before talking about tithing. You need to give God your heart as it were, before your possessions. Abraham did not just give his tithes to any king around but to the priest of the Most High God. He was a responsible man, and he thought it the responsible thing to do. Even God had this testimony of him.
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

The will and the way of Abraham was for his household to follow in his steps. Today also, we count it the responsible thing to do to give the tithes for the work of God in the church. We are practical like Abraham, and we recognise the various needs that would always arise in the church, and how the spiritual leadership are able custodians of what we give for the church. In our own houses and neighbourhoods, we are responsible enough to note and comply with tax in its different forms. We realise the importance of our contributions to wives, children, community and government. We know from our experience that our wives work better and happier with a steady and known income from us. It helps with the budget and the planning, as opposed to our ONLY giving them, as we are led(whatever that means). We know what our young children with great minds and visions can do, as they calculate and know what to expect from their parents, and how they become industrious as opposed to the lotto style of giving to them. We know how sensible and reliable governments can achieve as they plan and implement budgets and put tax payer's money to good use. To us, we believe the church of God deserves equal if not better treatment. We know as individuals that our governments and families and communities would be more pleased with our consistent givings than with our lotto givings. Imagine a community where the contributions were as you feel like, or a society that way. That is not a responsible society.
Mal 1:8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

The tithe is an heave offering, lifted up, in recognition to God. We do it as a regard to God, acknowledging that He is our provider. And as Scriptures rightly say, the husbandman that labours should have the first share of the harvest. He is actually to us, the One that laboured, as we could do nothing without Him. He is the Reason, the Why, why we find giving Him a tenth the responsible thing to do. We have studied and through the Word, by His Spirit, through experience and mistakes, we have seen it the most solid and consistent form of physical supply in His house. We have seen the wisdom of God in the church, how God took excellent care of His workers who were involved in lifetime of service in His house. He provided them the basic necessities of man guaranteed. He gave them shelter, providing cities for them. He also provided them with consistent food and clothing through the tithes and offerings received. The early church tried a different method, a method of selling all their properties and laying them at the apostles' feet. This is the method that Mark and Candour seem to commend and recommend. We however commend ALL Scriptures, not just the Acts of the apostles. We can take examples from ALL Scriptures as the Spirit of God leads us. We find it however necessary to note that the initial method of some of the early church did not pay/favour in the long run. They say it is not wise to continue to do the same thing, and expect a different result.
As the early church sold all their possessions and distributed to every man, it seemed a jolly thing to do at the start. The scriptures record that they soon ran into problems as the church increased.

Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

First was the pressure on the couple Ananias and Sapphira, who also wanted to show that they'd sold their possession and given 100%. Peter challenged them, saying that it was not by force or a command/law. Next came the grumblings and neglect of certain people.
Act 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples were multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

Selling all your property would not satisfy everybody in the long run. At the initial, no man lacked, but as time went on, it didn't prove a stable or magnificient method. Unfortunately, it led to their poverty as a whole. When the economic meltdown hit the world, this church was the worst hit.

Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
Act 11:29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judea:

The brethren which dwelt in Judea were the worst hit. they got a name tag which stuck to them, "poor saints". i don't want to be a poor saint, neither do i want my church to be poor. i've seen what works better, and it is biblical. It is the responsible thing to do. Where we can, we want to provide for the house of God. It is like our own house, our Father's house.
Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

When peter, James and John saw Paul, one of the things they reminded him of was of the poor saints in Jerusalem. i do not want or hope for such a thing repeated around me.
Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Paul tried with the gentile churches getting them to donate for the poor saints, who had initially sold all their possessions and distributed to every man. We ought to give earnest heed, and not let evil history repeat itself among us. Tithing is a good work, and God recognises good works. He created us for good works.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(CEV) God planned for us to do good things and to live as he has always wanted us to live. That's why he sent Christ to make us what we are.


If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. A true Christian would make sacrifices that please his God.
Heb 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

We choose to be examples of believers in charity and in responsibility. We know God says "I know thy works, and charity, and service", therefore, we do not faint, neither are we deterred.


END

REBUTTING PRESENTATION R7


With this presentation, our fellow discussants have conveniently changed the reason they pay tithe and preach tithe to the fact that Abraham tithed and it’s a responsible thing to follow in the footsteps of Abraham. They are no longer tithing because of ‘the belief that the law of God is truth and should be regarded’ but they tithe because Father Abraham did and ‘The will and the way of Abraham was for his household to follow in his steps’. How often must our brothers vacillate on the reason or purpose for which they tithe? Let’s take a trip through Abraham’s life and see his other practices that our tithing brothers might already be following since they seek to emulate Abraham’s ‘works’

Genesis 12:13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake: and my soul shall live because of thee

We see Abraham being economical with the truth in the above scripture. He lied about his wife and evidently, it’s a ‘good’ example to follow afterall it’s Abraham and he even had a breakthrough courtesy of this dishonesty

Genesis 12:16 And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.

Infact it was such a ‘good example’ that Abram repeated the exact thing again

Genesis 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.

Again a very good example to follow because see how profitable it was for the Patriarch

Genesis 20:14 And Abimelech took sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and womenservants, and gave them unto Abraham, and restored him Sarah his wife.

Obviously we can assume God commanded him to tell these lies as it all turned out well for him and even in the midst of this dishonesty, see how God described him to Abimelech

Genesis 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

WE SEE THAT GOD DIDN’T CONDEMN HIM AND EVEN DESCRIBED HIM AS A PROPHET. Then we go down the family tree to see how Isaac followed the works of Abraham. He wasn’t recorded to have tithed, but he was recorded to have followed this ‘other’ work Abraham was known for

Genesis 26:7 And the men of the place asked him of his wife; and he said, She is my sister: for he feared to say, She is my wife; lest, said he, the men of the place should kill me for Rebekah; because she was fair to look upon.

Then we can conveniently say because of his following this ‘good’ work he learnt from his father, God decided to surprise him because immediately after this debacle, see what the bible recorded of him

Genesis 26:12 Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him

We see God blessing him after he LIED. Then we should also follow the other practices of circumcision (Gen 17:26-27), Erecting of Altars (Gen 12:8 ), burnt offerings (Gen 22:13), sleeping with the maid (Gen 16:4).

My brethren, have you considered the cost of actually following Abraham’s works? However, are we asked to follow these works of Abraham by Christ or by the apostles? What exactly is that attribute of Abraham that identifies us with him? It wasn’t tithe, it wasn’t circumcision, it wasn’t erecting altars and giving burnt offerings because see what the bible said about all the works Abraham did

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God

If works could justify, Abraham wouldn’t be able to stand before God almighty. What then was that which made him acceptable before God and also makes us acceptable today as children of God? It’s simply believing God. It was simply having faith in God

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness
Gal 3:6-7 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.[7]Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

God made promises to Abraham and he exhibited faith by believing all God said even though the evidence at the time suggested otherwise. This was the work of Abraham that Jesus was asking the Jews to do. It couldn’t have been tithing as they were evidently paying tithes at this time. It couldn’t have been circumcision as they were champions of circumcision. It couldn’t have been burnt offerings as they had abundance of this practice. Infact it couldn’t have been telling of lies as their religious leaders and themselves were master liars like the devil that was leading them(John 8:44). So what was the work Christ was asking them to do? It was to simply believe him when he told them he came from God.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent

It’s this work of believing in Jesus as sent from God that he was asking the Jews to engage in if they were truly the children of Abraham because Abraham believed God without question and it’s the one thing we are asked to emulate of Abraham today: BELIEVING IN GOD. God said Abraham’s children will keep the way of the LORD (Gen 18:19), but we must not read into the text what is not there. Scripture does not say Abram’s tithe was the “Way of the LORD.” Had Abram’s tithe been the “Way of the Lord,” God would not have had to have established a different Levitical tithe under the Law. Brethren the way of the LORD is believing God. We expect our brethren to know this.

Abraham gave tithe to an earthly king who was a priest of the most high God. The bible didn’t record it as a heave offering. The bible didn’t also record him as giving to a church. I’m sure by the standards of responsibility that our fellow discussants have drawn up, Abraham must be tagged very irresponsible. Abram did live in ancient Babylonia prior to his moving to the plains of Mamre. Ancient history records the Babylonians tithing to their deities as early as 2200 B.C.. This is important for one reason… Abram’s tithe to Melchizedek was 287 years after the earliest recorded history of the Babylonians tithing and he came from a Babylonian city… Ur of the Chaldees so he was of course well acquainted with the tithing tradition. Also there’s no record that Abraham repeated this practice at any other time. Any insinuation to the contrary would obligate our brothers to prove Abraham met Melchizedek again and again in the remaining 90 years he lived after this episode (He met Melchizedek at 85, a year before Ishmael was born and he died at 175). Since the bible DID NOT say this, we will reject such conclusions.

We implore our fellow discussants to differentiate between giving good advice and propagating a clear command from God. They’ve realized the importance of regular contributions to their wives, children, communities and government. We are indeed happy for them but we wish to know what this discovery has got to do with tithes? Do they tithe to their families and the government too? We’ve always said that it’s a good thing to make a contribution to your church. If the members of any church come together and agree on a percentage, that will be their prerogative. IT SHOULDN’T BECOME LAW for the rest of Christianity. God didn’t institute tithe in the law for ease of budgeting, he did because he withheld the rights of a particular Israeli tribe from fending for themselves. If our brothers are concerned about their church budget, then they have the right to arrive at a workable format for themselves and keep it there. Mark and Candour’s church would have a different approach to the issue and do not need to be dictated to by Image and RhymeyJohn’s church. If 10% is what they adopt in their church, then they should go ahead. We might find that a very irresponsible percentage and decide to do something else. Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty which is why you’ll never find any reference to tithe whenever any of the apostles mentioned giving or charity in their epistles. Take a search and see for yourself.

Our brothers say ‘’ The early church tried a different method, a method of selling all their properties and laying them at the apostles' feet. This is the method that Mark and Candour seem to commend and recommend’’ this statement in our opinion is an attempt to panel beat the truth. See the verse again

Acts 2:44-45 And all they that believed were together, and had all thing common;[45]And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as everyman had need
Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possesors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,[35]And laid them down at the apostles feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need

Use a binoculars to read the scripture up there if you wish, YOU WILL NEVER FIND A COMMAND from the apostles to the church to do what they did and that is the part our fellow discussants make a big effort to ignore. Those wonderful children of God did what they did OF THEIR OWN VOLITION without prompting from anybody or a prescribed methodology. There was no pressure on them to give, neither was there any pressure on Ananias and Sapphira to give either 1%, 10%, or even 100%. The questions Peter asked them proves BEYOND ANY DOUBT that they were not pressured to give or given a methodology or percentage to give. Pay attention to verse 4

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?[4]Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? And after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? Thou hast not lied to unto men, but unto God.

They were not pressured to give. While they owned the land, it was theirs to do with as they wished. No pressure and after they sold it, the money was still in their power. There was no pressure to give. They died because they wanted to deceive God to get vain glory. Once again, we repeat; THE EARLY CHURCH GAVE WILLINGLY OF THEIR OWN VOLITION, NOT BY A RECOMMENDED PERCENTAGE BY THE APOSTLES and NEITHER DID THEY PAY THE APOSTLES 100%. I hope our brethren get it this time. Nobody is asking you to sell all you have and give to your church. Surely not Mark and Candour. In Acts 2 & 4, we see land and houses being sold and the money distributed to the needy. No mention of white tithing envelopes, no ten percent taken out or demanded for the upkeep of a building, the funding of a missions trip, or the salary of a pastor. Only distribution of the whole amount to the needs of the community of saints. We have instances of collections for poor saints all over the epistles, what is conspicuously missing is this monetary tithe that is being preached from the pulpits today. It was all about every man as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give…..

Our brethren are trying to ridicule the Jerusalem church for their giving up everything and their poverty forgetting that even the gentile churches that gave to support them were themselves said to be in deep poverty

2 Cor 8:1-2 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;[2]How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

When it came to helping needy souls, a Christian must forget his own circumstances. This is what this wonderful church did just like what the widow of Zarepath did when she fed Elijah out of the little she had. The man of God asked for a little morsel out of what she had, he didn’t ask for all and God proved himself faithful (1 Kings 17:10-16).

Our fellow discussants insinuate that Abraham made sacrifices when he gave tithes to Melchizedek, but what sacrifice did Abram make in his tithe to Melchizedek? The tithes were not of his own household riches. Scripture says they were of the spoils of war. Brethren, there was no Sacrifice in Abram’s tithe and the bible DID NOT REFER TO ABRAHAM'S TITHE AS A SACRIFICE

We know God says "I know thy works, and charity, and service’’ he didn’t say’ I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faithful tithing’. Tithing is irrelevant to the Christian life. The early church wasn’t asked to tithe and Christians today also have no business with tithing. It is not tithing that shows our regard for God. Even in the law, there were other practices that were more important in showing regard for God, Sabbath for instance. As Christians, Our whole life must show regard for God. Taking care of our wives, children, relatives, Community and paying tax to Government is showing regard for God, not just giving 10% to the church.

CHRISTIANS ARE CONNECTED TO ABRAHAM BECAUSE WE SHARE A SIMILAR FAITH IN GOD NOT BECAUSE OF TITHING.


END

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL R7

Unfortunately for Mark and his team mate, it is becoming a lifestyle for them to seek to be divisive. They have aimed at causing and bloating divisions between ministers and churches, they've aimed at similar with the Bible, and now they aim at such even with our points/reasons. We would like to admonish them from the words of the scripture of what it states about such fellows. It is largely a mark of carnality and we hope that it is avoided, instead of imbibed just to make argument.
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Mark and Candour seem to have evidently forgotten so soon what this thread is all about when they say "With this presentation, our fellow discussants have conveniently changed the reason they pay tithe and preach tithe to the fact that Abraham tithed and it’s a responsible thing to follow in the footsteps of Abraham. They are no longer tithing because". They have forgotten, or decided not to take to cognizance, the fact that we gave 10 reasonS in the first page of this thread. The reasons given are quoted again below, it would have baffled us but we've seen them do such to other things.

R1: Our tithing is borne out of the fact that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God. (2 Timothy 3:16)
R2: Our tithing is in the belief that the law of God is truth and should be regarded. (Psalm 119:142)
R3: Our tithing continues because Jesus and all the apostles had great respect for the Bible (John 17:17)
R4: Our tithing remains practiced because there is no condemnation from God for doing it. (Romans 8:1)
R5: Our tithing is done to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15)
R6: Our tithing is because Jesus never condemned it and suggested that it ought to be done. (Luke 11:42)
R7: Our tithing is because Christians today are children of Abraham, and we find tithing a responsible thing to do. (John8:39,Galatians 3:7)
R8: Our tithing is done as the Bible shows that Jacob learnt about tithes from Abraham, showing clearly that tithing was practised long time before the law. (Hebrews 11:9)
R9: Tithing is scriptural as Jacob vowed to give it TO God, emphasizing and discerning the Lord's body (Genesis 28:22)
R10: Our tithing is based on scriptures that Jacob gave tithe of his all, a precursor and foretaste to bring all the tithe (Malachi 3:10)
God bless you all.

These reasonS were made clear, so it is sad why when we presented reason R7, our friends paint it like we changed reason R2 to fact R7. R2 and R7, no, R1 to R10 are not vacillations, but 10 points with their references, as we all agreed to give from the start of the thread. It is reasonable that each point should be different from the other, and we even agreed that if a point was the same or had being treated already in another point, we could concur to skip it, all this on the first page.
We also observed with awe, the dexterity of our brothers in playing with scriptures. Indeed, as they say, one can make the scriptures say what one wants. We are not of that class, sorry. We reverence the Word of God and do not take it so lightly as was shown in the previous rebut. It is not a good example to be economical with the truth. We wonder why Mark and Candour will say "Infact it was such a ‘good example’ . Again a very good example to follow because see how profitable it was for the Patriarch. Obviously we can assume God commanded him to tell these lies as it all turned out well for him. WE SEE THAT GOD DIDN’T CONDEMN HIM AND EVEN DESCRIBED HIM AS A PROPHET. Then we go down the family tree to see how Isaac followed the works of Abraham."
This are indeed perilous times that we live in. We would like everyone to know that we do not agree with Mark and Candour's views as presented above, but that we can learn from scriptures and from scriptural characters.

Phi 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an example unto you to follow us.
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
Heb 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Brethren, the above scriptures show us what 2timothy 3v16 has been telling us. Believers are expected to learn from the examples in scriptures, and we ought to have our senses exercised enough to know good examples and bad examples.(hebrews5). The 1Corinthians 10 passage examples being referred to in this passage we quote were of backsliding, being overthrown, idolatry, murmuring and other sins. The apostle says they are our examples, and we hope and pray that Mark and Candour understand the context. Believers are expected to be humble enough to learn from others, from pharisees, from younger ones, from birds, lilies, ants, the firmament, and of course from godliness. Jesus Christ remains our perfect example, but no scripture or Holy Spirit hinders us from learning salient lessons from the lives of others. There are great lessons to be learnt from the lives of men and women like Abraham, Gideon, Moses, David, Saul, Elijah, Peter, Esther, Hannah, Ruth, Martha, Paul etc. There are examples we can learn from history and from even our contemporaries. One of many lessons we learn from the life of Abraham was his offering of tithes of all. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Our friends said "Then we should also follow the other practices of circumcision (Gen 17:26-27), Erecting of Altars (Gen 12:8 ), burnt offerings (Gen 22:13), sleeping with the maid (Gen 16:4)." We have earlier shown that there is nothing wrong with circumcision, in as much as it is not done to obtain justification or salvation. We quoted it before, but perhaps our friends missed it. Here it is again.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
(CEV) Being circumcised or uncircumcised isn't really what matters. The important thing is to obey God's commands.
(GNB) For whether or not a man is circumcised means nothing; what matters is to obey God's commandments.
(GW) Circumcision is nothing, and the lack of it is nothing. But keeping what God commands is everything.

Nothing wrong also with altars, or with offerings, so far as they are put and used in their proper contexts. Note that the apostles thought it an important thing is to obey God's commands. Candour and Mark have asked if we considered the cost of actually following Abraham’s works? We ask if they are considering the all words of Jesus. For instance, Jesus said
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. This is what Jesus said, but Mark and Candour say we had better consider the cost. We have considered the cost, and hope that God will continue to give us the grace. Abraham's work was not faith by the way. Mark and Candour contradict themselves as they themselves quoted the below passage.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God

Abraham was not justified by works but by faith, according to that passage quoted. If Abraham's work was faith, then the above passage would be irrelevant and unnecessary as faith justified him. Abraham for one would not kill Jesus. Jesus said so. In fact, when Abraham saw Melchisedec who was of the same order of priesthood as Jesus, he gave Him tithes of ALL. This was one of Abraham's works.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

When Abraham saw someone like Jesus, he rejoiced and was glad. he demonstrated that joy and gladness by giving tithe of all.
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

We don't say that his tithing or rejoicing justified him. We do say that he tithed, get that. Faith is not work, living faith is however accompanied by works. Abraham demonstrated living faith, and is the father of faith. He walked by faith, he tithed by faith, he sacrificed by faith, offered his son by faith, even gave his son in marriage by faith, he obeyed by faith, and journeyed by faith. His actions/works were faith based. Abraham is not God, is he? We wonder why mark and candour tried to subtly equate him to God. Abraham is just father of faith, he is not God(Romans 4). Peter made his mistakes, so did Paul, and Barnabas, and John, and David, and Abraham, and every man. But we can still humbly learn and imbibe great lessons from them all. Pride gives us such a warped opinion of ourselves that we think that we have nothing to learn from others.
The Bible records and equates tithe to an heave offering. This is why we have repeatedly stated that we should not learn a topic in isolations, but collectively bring in ALL Scripture as divinely inspired and profitable. Here is one scripture that teaches about tithes.
Num 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as a heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Num 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Num 18:27 And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fullness of the winepress.
Num 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer a heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD's heave offering to Aaron the priest.
Num 18:29 Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the LORD, of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it.

The heave offerings mentioned here are tithe. All the tithes were referred to as heave offering. The main purpose of the heave is a recognition of God the giver. It is the same reason why Abraham gave the tithe. He considered God as the One who gave him victory.
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Note in the above passage that it was penned down by Moses, and if anyone knows something about tithes, it should be Moses. moses referred to what Abraham gave as tithes, because that is what it was. Antitithers confuse themselves and the undiscerning today when they introduce high sounding words and phrases like "Abraham's tithe", "monetary tithe", "levitical tithe". You will not find such in the Bible. Even the writer to the Hebrews in the new testament Bible simply refers to it as tithes, or a tenth. There was no demarcation or attempt at divisiveness when he talked about tithes in the various dispensations.
Mark and Candour have managed to come to a conclusion that "Abraham must be tagged very irresponsible" by Rhymeyj and Image's standard. We find that a most discombobulating conclusion to arrive at. We are aware that Abraham was responsible to his family, his wife, his household, his community and his God. Our discussants have again managed to imply that Abraham's tithe to Melchisedek MUST have been his FIRST and only tithe. We say it again that they would need to be omniscient to assert that, we know that they are not. The number of times something is recorded or not recorded in scriptures does not automatically correspond to the amount of times it happened. Else, following that logic, we may also conclude and assert that Abraham ONLY offered a burnt offering once(the incidence when God provided a lamb) in his life. We may also assert using the same logic about many of the Bible characters never tithing, or being circumcised, or marrying, praying etc in cases where such was not recorded. It plainly would not work that way.
Our friends have implored us to differentiate between giving good advice and propagating a clear command from God. We have made it clear severally that we believe that all scripture is inspired by God and profitable. Because of that, a man of God(that is a believer) can be led by God to commend and recommend any part of Scriptures as the Holy Spirit leads. We have explained recently how we feel that the new testament is not really about commands but about "ought tos". Our friends seemed fixated on the 'ought to tithe' part, and perhaps missed the lessons we gave on the whole. In the new testament dispensation, there is a sort of accompanying liberty that goes with every action from prayer, to fasting, to tithing, to reading Bible, to going to church, and every other good work. But we are exhorted to do good works none the less, and tithing remains a good work till tomorrow.

@Image

This is 24 hours since you made the last post and indicated that it is not yet ended. Do you still have anything to add to the post or you plan to end it there?

Mark and Candour have stated that they wish to know the importance of regular contributions to their wives, children, communities and government. We have explained this already. To reiterate, wives, children, communities and governments would rather prefer consistent givings and contributions as against lotto kind of givings. Lotto kind of giving is when i feel like giving. Nobody wants this type of giving, i've not met any. We give to the cause of our children, wives, communities and governments whether we feel like or no. And we do not want to treat the household of God any less. What we cannot do to others as they would not like it, lets not try it with God. That is pretty much what this verse says in a paraphrase.
Mal 1:8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

We have at no time made tithing a law on this thread. It is Mark and Candour who have continued to say that it is a law. We stand to be corrected on that. What we have consistently done on this thread discuss is to commend and recommend the tithe. When our fellow discussants say " God didn’t institute tithe in the law for ease of budgeting, he did because he withheld the rights of a particular Israeli tribe from fending for themselves." We think that is just their own idea and not found or agreed to in any scripture. God was not punishing the Levites but elevating them. The talk about withdrawing rights is simply not it. God said HE was their inheritance. They had a greater inheritance than the others, because they chose to be on the Lord's side, and were serving in the house of God. It was a privilege and a promotion for them, not a withdrawal of rights, except you think having to work in farms is better/greater than having God.
Num 18:20 And the LORD spoke unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.

Budget is plan, supply, funds, making provision. This is what God did for the levites through the tithes and other offerings. It did ease budgeting, and no one is being dictated to by us. We have wronged no man. There is no quote to such effect of dictation and commandeerings, and we would like that our dear discussants do not resort to false accusations and insinuations.
We believe liberality, and not liberty is why you may not find reference to tithe whenever any of the apostles mentioned giving or charity in their epistles. The people were giving way over 10% to the cause of the church, therefore there would naturally be no need to teach them of 10%. It's like expecting to find HCF and LCM, or Decimal point in the syllabus of a graduate mathematics course. They were already well past just 10%. They were easily selling lands and houses for Christ, it was not a burden for them to give to Jesus. The early church were selling all their properties and laying them at the apostles' feet. We hope that Mark and Candour would show us what part of the statement is not in the Acts text that they quoted, or how it is an attempt to panel beat the truth. The statement was simply a verifiable method that is seen in the Acts of the apostles. We didn't mention it as being a command.
It is evident and logical to see that Ananias and Sapphira felt pressured to give. We don't say that anyone forced them. We even explained and showed that Peter told them that it was theirs. Did you read this or not from our post? Peter challenged them, saying that it was not by force or a command/law. We already wrote this in explanation. Maybe you skimmed through. however, the actions of others do challenge and provoke us to action as human beings. This is basic fact. Other's actions can stir up, incite, provoke a person.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Jesus considered what His apostles were given as their pay, and He said that they were worthy of it.
Luk 10:7 Stay in that same house, eating and drinking whatever they offer you, for workers should be given their pay. Don't move around from one house to another.

Whatever they offer you. Some fellows evidently brought the prices of the things that were sold,And laid them down at the apostles feet. i have given tithes of my own volition for years now. Many have purposed in their hearts to give a tenth for ages now. It becomes ludicrous if you claim to have no problems with distribution of the whole amount to the needs of the community of saints, but have problems with distribution of the tenth of the whole amount to the needs of the community of saints. A particular gentile church was even told to set aside a proportion every sunday. Obviously, the much ado about no proportion or percentage stems from some other thing?
1Co 16:2 Every Sunday each of you must put aside some money, in proportion to what you have earned, and save it up, so that there will be no need to collect money when I come. Good News

We do not attempt to ridicule anybody. We have shown scriptural and historical facts proving that the judea church was the worst hit in the economic crises. They were the same fellows who had sold their possessions and distributed to every man as every man needs. Even poor gentile churches still had to help them out. Their poverty was on another class as it were. When you say "When it came to helping needy souls, a Christian must forget his own circumstances." Is this another command coming from your stables and is it a scriptural command/law? We are willing to learn from this please?
By the way, the widow of Zarepath did not forget her circumstances. We are almost certain that she offered Elijah far more than a tenth of the handful of meal and oil that she had. Quite commendable and recommended by us. There is also this thing we are hearing that we insinuate that Abraham made sacrifices when he gave tithes. i guess our friends forget that anything we give to God is a sacrifice in a way. Sacrifice is something given to God or offered to God. i understand the other sense, in giving up something valued like Isaac, anyway. But we meant it in a general sense that giving to God is sacrifice.
Heb 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
(ALT) But stop neglecting the doing of good and generosity, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
(CEV) But don't forget to help others and to share your possessions with them. This too is like offering a sacrifice that pleases God.
(DRB) And do not forget to do good and to impart: for by such sacrifices God's favour is obtained.
(GNB) Do not forget to do good and to help one another, because these are the sacrifices that please God.

When one gives(whether 10% or other), it is the sacrifice that pleases God. Doing good, being generous, imparting, helping, these are sacrifices. It's not only when you give an arm or a leg before something is a sacrifice. Sacrifice is simply something offered to, or as unto God. Like when we give praise, it is a sacrifice. the sense here is not necessarily about the amount.
Jesus said "I know thy works, and charity, and service’’. Tithing is a work, a good work for that matter. It can be done charitably, and as a service. God is not unrighteous to forget, no, not Jehovah God.


END

DrummaBoy: @Image

This is 24 hours since you made the last post and indicated that it is not yet ended. Do you still have anything to add to the post or you plan to end it there?

Sorry, sarry, sarryyyyyy. Network and time issues.

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE R7


There are a lot of wrong, cruel and dangerous doctrines on rampage in Christianity today and we have decided not to close our eyes to it or play the ostrich and bury our heads in the sand, pretending all is well. A lot of people were supposedly brought into church but have been made twice the children of hell by the poison being peddled as doctrine from a lot of pulpits. The lies and misconceptions are what we seek to point out but our fellow discussants accuse us of many things one of which is causing divisions between ministers and churches. We do not seek to cause any of such. We only seek to let the children of God know the truth about this doctrine of tithes and we plead with them to be consistent in the reasons they adduce for tithe payment and collection because the destinies of plenty naïve and gullible Christian folks depend on it. We didn’t enter this discussion solely for the benefit of the two members of the other team but for the generality of Christians. Our fellow discussants say they believe TITHING CANNOT JUSTIFY THEM BEFORE GOD. We are indeed glad they know this truth but do they assume the generality of Christianity realize this truth?

We have given reasons why this discussion is imperative and why we decided to come into it. We wish those on the other team can appreciate the damage these misconceptions have done to some poor ignorant Christians somewhere. Christians are told things such as

1. If you don't tithe, things will be tight for you financially

2. If you don't tithe, you will have calamities, accidents, sickness, etc and you’ll not prosper

3. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever because you’re a robber.

4. If you don't tithe, it means you don't love God

5. Pay tithe as eternal principle to prove Abraham is your father

6. Pay Tithe to sanctify your finances

7. Pay tithe to your pastor because he is senior to you in the order of priesthood of Melchizedek

This list is by no means exhaustive as more keep coming out daily depending on how fertile the imaginations of the promoters are. The other team accuses us of causing divisions but Is it better to be united in an erroneous doctrine contrary to that which the new covenant teaches? Is it not better to be united in Truth?

We are told in the Bible that we are to Preach the Word; not man’s tradition, nor man’s opinion.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

At this point, we must ask once again… Where in God’s Word are we instructed to tithe our money? Where in the word are we asked to give tithes to anyone other than the Levites? Where in the word are pastors called priests over other Christians? Where are we told to tithe because it is an example?

Brethren, it’s just not there! Yet we are consistently ridiculed and made to look the bad guy for doing exactly what the Bible commands… “Preach the Word.”

The inspired Word of God tells us that God gave tithes paid by the Israelites to the Levites because they had the charge of the tabernacle and had no inheritance. It does not matter that Abram paid tithes to Melchizedek 500 years before. The fact is that by the time of Moses, God gave the tithes to the Levites.

If I were working for a company, and my employer told me I had the responsibility of going to the store and buying doughnuts and coffee for the employees of the company, then I would have to carry out my responsibility. If however, my employer made an announcement, “From here on, Jack is to go to the store and get the doughnuts and coffee,” I would have to relinquish my role as the one responsible for getting the doughnuts and coffee. It would now be Jack’s responsibility.

Another meeting is held several years later, and my boss mentions once again in that meeting that Jack has the responsibility of going to the store and picking up doughnuts and coffee for the employees of the company. Now, although there are subsequent meetings, doughnuts and coffee are never mentioned again by the boss.

How is anyone to assume that any other person other than Jack is responsible for bringing the doughnuts? It is the same with the tithes.

We see Melchizedek receiving tithes in the Bible. (although no mention that he was ordered to do so by God) (Gen. 14:18-20). We see God subsequently telling Moses that He has given all the tithes of the land to the Levites (Numbers 18:24) and tithe of tithes to the priests (Numbers 18:26,28). We see God specifying what those tithes consist of (Leviticus 27:30-33). We see who God said was responsible for tithing (Leviticus 27:34). Fourteen Hundred-Ninety-Six years later, we see God reminding the people that the tithes belong to the Levites (Hebrews 7:5). Where and when was this instruction changed?

There is no instruction to tithe after the manner of Abram (which, by the way, was not Abram’s own household goods). There is no mention of God telling man to give tithes to a Church. There is no mention of God telling man that He has amended tithes to go to any geographical location other than Israel. It is man that has invented new tithe rules. Rules that are contrary to the Word of God.

As is obvious, tithe preachers take liberty with the Word of God concerning the tithes. God never instructed Gentile nations to tithe and neither did he instruct Gentile Christians to do so. Once again see what the Holy Ghost saw good to tell the early Christians

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, Saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;[29]That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication

Yet tithe preachers say Gentile Christians must obey the command to tithe today and give it to non levitical clergy. If we were to ask any orthodox Jew where we were to go to tithe, we would be told that, being non-Jews, we cannot tithe. The Jews know the truth concerning tithes. The tithes were given to the Levites. God never said to take the tithes to Gentiles outside of the land of Israel. There is no indication in God’s Word that He wanted Gentile Converts to tithe to the Church. None whatsoever. Once again, we’ll want readers to note the following truths and facts

1.Early Jewish Christians eligible to pay tithes would have paid BUT ONLY TO LEVITES at the temple because that’s what the law said (NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR BEING CHRISTIANS) and they were zealous of the law and NOT TO THE APOSTLES as that would be transgression of the law they were said to be zealous about. Even more serious is that THE JEWS PRACTICING JUDAISM AND THEIR LEADERS WOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED THE Christian leaders take over the rights and privileges’ of the Levites.

2.Gentile Christians (You and i) were not expected to adhere to Mosaic law hence they NEVER paid tithes either to the Levites or to the apostles. THEY OPERATED ON THE BASIS OF FREEWILL OFFERINGS, NOT TITHES.

So whose example are today’s tithe preachers following? What do they know today that eluded the early Christians and the apostles? When did God change his will concerning the tithes? Once again, we have no problem with a Christian who keeps himself bound to the tithe of his own volition or leading of his Spirit. We however protest its elevation to a doctrine for all Christians because it’s clear falsehood.

When we use John 8:39 and Romans 4:2, we do not so to justify the works of the flesh, rather, we do so to show inconsistencies. Not with us, but with those who say they tithe because Abram tithed. The tithe being taught today is not after the tithe of Abraham. We have proven that using Scripture. Abram’s tithe was of the spoils of war. Not of wages. The spoils were not Abram’s wages. After Abram gave all the spoils away, God spoke to him and told him “I am thy reward. (Genesis 15:1)

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

The spoils Abram gave tithes from were not his wages. This is very clear from scriptures

Scripture does not say Abraham rejoiced in seeing someone like Jesus. One is adding to the Word of God when one says Abraham did. Not once in the passages concerning Melchizedek do we see any inference that Abraham was rejoicing to see Melchizedek.

We are told that “faith is not a work.” Yet the Lord Jesus Christ declares that faith which is also ‘believing’ is a work.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The Bible tells us that God’s tithes in the Law were to be heaved. The bible DOES NOT SAY that the tithe that Abram gave to Melchizedek was a “heave offering.” One has to add to the Word of God to make it so. Again, “tithes of all” clearly refer to tithe of spoils of war: NOT ABRAM’S HOUSEHOLD RICHES. The bible is very clear and concise about that and I hope no one will attempt to contradict the bible

Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils

Abraham gave a tithe of ONLY THE SPOILS. It will be a lie to say otherwise.

Our fellow discussants mention the ‘’importance of regular contributions to their wives, children, communities and government’’ and we still wonder what this has got to do with tithes. How does consistent giving translate to a specific 10% called tithe? They claim God will not like it if we do not do this and they quote Mal 1:8 for effect. This is another case of bending and forcing scripture to say what they want it to say rather than what God said. For their information, Malachi 1:8 says nothing of regular contributions. It is speaking of giving wrong and substandard things than are required.

The tithe promoters say ‘’ We have at no time made tithing a law on this thread. It is Mark and Candour who have continued to say that it is a law. We stand to be corrected on that’’ we will correct them here. TITHE IS A LAW INSTITUTED IN THE LAW OF MOSES. They have no power over it because God made it so with clear directions and command on its collection and administration. It is ignorance to say otherwise but thank God the holy ghost thought fit to explain our freedom from the law through the apostles. Our fellow discussants forget that they are not the only tithe preachers in Christianity. Millions of church leaders preach that Christians today MUST obey this law or suffer the consequences enumerated at the beginning of this response. Our participation here does not have only the two of them in focus but others who have placed Christians in a bondage and yoke to a corrupted version of Mosaic law thereby making the decision of the Holy Ghost in Acts 15:24,28 of none effect.

The tithers say ‘’ We believe liberality, and not liberty is why you may not find reference to tithe whenever any of the apostles mentioned giving or charity in their epistles’’ and we wonder why they then persist in this argument? If they believe the apostles wanted the early Christians to be liberal hence knew tithe preaching was USELESS in this regard, why have modern church leaders picked it up and elevated it to a dizzying height of regard in church teachings today? Why are Image and RhymeyJohn hammering on what they KNOW the apostles never referenced? We also wonder how you can be liberal without having the liberty to be. They say ‘’ The people were giving way over 10% to the cause of the church, therefore there would naturally be no need to teach them of 10%’’ leaving us to wonder why our opponents persist in closing their eyes to the fact that the apostles knew they HAD NO RIGHT TO COLLECT TITHES FROM ANYBODY BECAUSE THE LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD THAT OWNED THE TITHES WAS STILL IN CHARGE AT THE TEMPLE. We can’t but notice that our tithe promoters have also wisely mentioned 10% instead of tithe and we can only smile at this because they know as well as we know that the apostles would have nothing to do with tithe collections whether people gave 1% or 3% simply because they remembered they were not LEVITES. Also the giving was strictly to meet the daily personal needs of the poor and needy among them, not to hire chariots for the apostles or build cathedrals. See the scripture again

Acts 2:44-45 And all they that believed were together, and had all thing common;[45]And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as everyman had need
Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possesors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,[35]And laid them down at the apostles feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need

Let us always allow scripture say what it means and mean what it says.

Our fellow discussants say ‘’ It becomes ludicrous if you claim to have no problems with distribution of the whole amount to the needs of the community of saints, but have problems with distribution of the tenth of the whole amount to the needs of the community of saints’’ and we say it is not only ridiculous, but it is WICKED, CRUEL, INHUMANE AND FRAUDLENT to collect tithes in the name of the church and refuse to supply the necessities of the needy saints in the church. Tithers believe we preach against every giving in church because of our stance on tithes for Christians but this is not so. if only the tithes so collected are actually used to meet the needs of the community of the saints. We believe there wouldn’t have been a questioning of tithe collections (its glaring contradictions notwithstanding) if not for the glaring criminality in its collections and administration in most churches that preach it. Tithes are collected in the name of the church and members are told the pastor is the priest that God has placed over the particular church and he alone (plus family and close associates) has the divine wisdom to spend as ‘led by the spirit’ when the bible clearly records collections in the early church as being used SOLELY AND TOTALLY to meet the needs of the members of the church. Is this how tithe is administered in most churches today? People who see leaders being dishonest with what they give in churches today will not be liberal with their giving except those who see giving in church as a business and approach it fully with this mindset and because the gospel has been commercialized, this approach sells unfortunately.

We have no qualms provoking others to good works but again, we cannot teach tithing as a “good work” that other Christians should do since God said in His Holy Word that His tithes were to go to a people of the nation of Israel, specifically… the Levites. How can we suggest that others give 10% of their money when God said clearly in His Word that we are to purpose in our own hearts what to give to those in need?

The Church at Corinth was not told to set aside a proportion. What they were told was “Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.” The word “prospered” in this verse is not speaking of proportion. Many mistakenly read it to mean proportion when it does not. The Greek word that “prospered” is translated from is the word “euodoo.” It is defined, “as God has helped you on your journey.” Literally, Paul was saying, “As God has helped you on your journey in life, so do you to others.

We see this same illustration given by Jesus when the Lawyer asked of Him, “Who is my neighbor?” Jesus answered with a parable of a beaten man who was left for dead until a certain Samaritan came to his aid. Jesus told the Lawyer, “Go thou, and do likewise.” And it’s in tandem with the golden rule given by Christ himself thus ‘’Do unto others as you would have them do to you’’

So many misinterpret Paul’s instruction to help others along the road of life into a verse that teaches tithes when it does not. 1 Corinthians 16:2, when read in context is shown to be a collection, not for the Church at Corinthians where the collections was to be taken up, but for a body of believers in another city, another location. 1 Corinthians 16:2 is not even about one collecting any money whatsoever for one’s own Church.

1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

If we have the means to help others who are in need, we should. If we fail to help when we have the means to help, we do not show the love of God at all. The Apostle John questions if the love of God is even dwelling in one who has the means to help but does not. This is the lesson the early Christians imbibed that made them liberal with their resources.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

the Christian has liberty and he should be allowed the liberty to be liberal with his resources. One may give 1%, 10%, or even 100% sacrificially but regardless of what one gives, we cannot justly teach that a Christian should tithe. We should never teach man how much to give. He is to decide for himself what he should or can give. He that is told to give 10% is not choosing for himself rather, he is allowing someone else to do the choosing for him. God’s Word doesn’t teach tithe for Christians and neither should we. Instead, we should teach that if there is a need and one has the means to meet that need, that one should contribute to that need (1 John 3:17). We should teach that one must decide for oneself what that one wants to give (2 Corinthians 9:7). We should teach that our giving to the destitute and needy is more prized by Christ than any other good work (Matt 25:31-46) with him concluding that those who provide for the needy will inherit eternal life.


END

Its a pity, the finished task has gone back to an unfinished state. God knows best.

Rhymeyjohn: Its a pity, the finished task has gone back to an unfinished state. God knows best.

You can say it again.

How now Rhymejohn? I trust you are fine.