One Corinthians has been the center of my study for the past two nights now and I really want to know if the deductions I am getting from it is truly in line with the whole theme of scriptures and if it a reality in the life of the church today.

I am particularly making this invitation to the following in the house: Goshen 360. frosbel, shdemidemi, Pastor Kun, Boomark,Okeyz,Mr Anony, Deep Sight, Truthislight, Alwaystrue, Bidam, Ihedinobi, Image 123, and Ayoku777. Others who may feel compelled are equally welcomed to share their insight.

Now before I start the discuss, let me as a means of introduction, say that the theme of One Corinthians 4 is that of the life and ministry of the Apostle Paul. My main question here is that is this lifestyle and ministry only unique to Paul alone or is it supposed to be the testimony of all men of God? I understand that God permits both adversity and prosperity in the minister's life, but how come all Paul had to testify in this chapter was simply adversity? Is possible that in the process of watering down our gospel today, we have lost the offence of the cross that is integral to sound gospel preaching?

I have purposely invited people of varied views of the gospel so that we may see this from different point of view but one thing is common among all I have invited, they are proffesing Christians

1Cr 4:1 ¶ Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

Here we have an introduction. Of course chapter four is a continuation of chapter one to three, but so as not to let the discuss be too lengthy I begin here, for emphasis sake. Here is a minister of Christ, Paul, who is different from any other kind of minister today because of his possession of the mysteries of Christ. While ministers may enjoy enlightenment into mysteries of the bible, there are no more new revelations outside what is written in scriptures. This is why this chapter is "mysterious"; could we say that because Paul held Christ's mysteries is the reason why he experienced the things he experienced?

1Cr 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

I will not belabor this point. Indeed the hallmark of any effective ministry, true or false,is that a man must be found faithful in the ministry.

1Cr 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1Cr 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1Cr 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

We see a couple of things in this three verses:

1. Judge not: We must understand this to be the sort of judging Jesus spoke against in Matthew 7. A sort of judgmental and critical attitude, coupled with condemnation of those who do not see eye to eye with us on the view of religion. I think everyone of us on NL have been guilty of this at one point or the other. 1Corinthians 11 talks about discerning the body of Christ: I think it means being able to see Jesus in another person even if he doesn't belong to our church or if he doesn't share our theological outlook. I would like to know more on this sort of "judge not", Paul is talking about from NL theologians.

2. Permissible judging: Despite being a mighty apostle of Christ Paul would say here : But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment. He is saying in effect, I am not so concerned about men's opinion. I see this as "na every man get im mouth, make im use am as in like; I no send". He goes further to saying that not his or any man's judgement is trustworthy but the judgement that can come only through Christ. He trust Christ to do a better job of judgement in the end. But what I see here is that Paul does not see himself above criticism.


Do these scriptures make an eternal argument against ministers being criticized?

to be continued...

Ermmm... sorry to badge in on you sir, is Deepsight a Christian?

I think I have seen where he said he is a deist.

I lost my post. Too bad!

Well, carry go...

Tgirl4real: Ermmm... sorry to badge in on you sir, is Deepsight a Christian?

I think I have seen where he said he is a deist.

That is why I used the term proffesing Christians

Hey Bro, I will study this and reply some time tomorrow.

Blessings and enjoy your weekend.

Frosbel.

Why is @obadiah(aka buzugee, aka WMD, aka doctrine terrorist, etc) not invited here?? I need some entertainment from him

okeyxyz: Why is @obadiah(aka buzugee, aka WMD, aka doctrine terrorist, etc) not invited here??

^

Where Paul speaks about judgment here, He meant one christian judging another because he has a different doctrine. If a man has a different doctrine, then he has a different calling, ministry and conscience, all validated in the christian principle.

Now this does not mean that ministers of whom you share the same doctrine cannot be judged by you. You both profess the same doctrines and are required to mandate each other to abide by that. If a minister preaches one thing and does not abide by the same, then he must be called-out for his failings and dully reprimanded for unfaithfulness. Paul himself has done this in many occasions, most famously the denouncing of Peter for segregating between Jews and Gentiles, even after the understanding that everybody is equal in christ.

Oya, make una clap for me

I will like to follow up with my little contribution.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 1 Corinthians 4:1

. . . as of the ministers of Christ

First, it refers to the early Apostles but by extension of plurality; it also includes those who ministers Christ. Who are these ministers of Christ. Christ is the mediator of a new and better covenant by his death, burial and resurrection making way for the new testament. Hence, minister of Christ are those who ministers Christ, preaches and teaches the new testament and the finished works of Christ.

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

If a man is not ministering the new testament which Christ is the mediator, such is not a minister of Christ. Therefore, ministers of Christ are ministers of the new testament\covenant.

. . . and stewards of the mysteries of God

The ministers of Christ who minister the new testament are stewards or custodians or managers of the mysteries of God. This mysteries is an already revealed one, no longer hidden. Colossians 1:26; Ephesians 1:9, 3:4-5; 1 Timothy 3:9. What is so precious about the 'mysteries of God' that it had to be put or ENTRUSTED to the hands or care of 'ministers of Christ' and what exactly is this 'mysteries of God'? I will save that for another time.

Now, here, the Apostle had ESTABLISHED a truth and that truth is, ministers of Christ are ENTRUSTED with mysteries of God and he then carry into verse 2: They are required to be FAITHFUL.

Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 1 Corinthians 4:2

He just told us that ministers of Christ are STEWARDS of the mysteries of God and here a stewards (ministers of Christ) be faithful. Why is faithfulness required towards the mysteries that is entrusted to them the ministers? This 'faithfulness' is an adjective. It speaks of a man and\or persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties. This means, a custodian can go astray from being faithful to what was entrusted to him and become unfaithful and manipulative and mismanaging the MYSTERIES of God that is entrusted to him. One who is called a minister of Christ must be one who discharge what had been entrusted to him faithfully without bending or manipulating the mysteries that had been entrusted to him.

@op

I have purposely invited people of varied views of the gospel so that we may see this from different point of view but one thing is common among all I have invited,they are proffesing Christians

am a bit concern when you mentioned the bolded. There can not be VARIED view of the gospel, only ONE which is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, this is the gospel wit power. So i would ask you rewrite it as that the Holy Spirit in them will speak thru their individuality to the unity of faith. Not to digress please, just my observation

My humble addition-

I believe whenever we pick up any part of the scripture, we can't just rush into it. it is important to know who is speaking, why he is speaking in the manner he is speaking and to whom he is speaking, that is, the audience. This book is a correctional book to the book of Romans, the book was written because of the problems they had in this church. Paul had taught these people but the problem here was that the people were in christ but their perception and ways was strongly influenced by their old ways and false brethren had also invaded the church saying all sorts about this apostle.

In the book of Corinthians, Paul was speaking to people that were deep in pagan custom, a city of brothels and red light district, always busy, they now made fornication as a religious sacrament and profanity was the order. It is similar to our modern day Texas, but with Corinth the main attraction was not casino but temples.

Therefore the apostle would speak to these people as babes in the faith. He wrote to them in a way he never spoke with other churches, so we must be very careful when quoting from this book.

I Corinthians 4:1

"Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards (or managers) of the mysteries of God."

Mysteries are secrets. These Pauline revelations are never referred to anywhere else in Scripture - not in the Old Testament, or the Four Gospels, and for the most part, not even in the Book of Acts. You find the mysteries only in the letters of Paul. Paul says in verse 2:


I Corinthians 4:2

"Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful." So whatever we are in charge of, it can be business, or church activities, or whatever - if we're in charge we are responsible, and God expects us to be faithful.


We must always have it in mind that Corinth was a city that was saturated in paganism and all the gross immorality that went with it. They were so steeped in the things of the world. Even as Paul has garnered this little group of believers, remember they had just come out of this kind of background. So it stands to reason that they didn't all of a sudden become spiritual giants. Chapter 7 verse 1 shows us the church had sent series of questions, and so Paul is answering these questions they have asked one by one. And when you get that concept then this little letter of Corinthians just sort of opens up again. Remember back in Chapter 1, Paul had to deal with so many of them lifting him up as the only man to listen to. Others had separated themselves saying that they only listen to Peter, and others said they listen to Apollos. Those were things that divided this little congregation, but that wasn't their only problem. They also had a moral problem and problems with relationships within the church family.

in Chapter 1 some said, "No, we listen to Peter, you're just a fake, you're an impostor. Peter is the one that has the authority, he walked with Jesus for three years, you didn't." So Paul has to constantly defend his apostleship, and here's another little instance.

I Corinthians 4:3

"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment..." ....but he that judgeth me is the Lord." So Jesus Christ is the One that judgeth Paul, the One who sent him out to be the Apostle of the Gentiles in the first place. Verse 5a:

"Therefore (since no one can judge Paul except The Lord Who sent him) judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come,"

In other words, you and I might have planted good seeds we know nothing about. We shall be reaping rewards of people who are following in our footsteps. So this is what the apostle is trying to show here, and that is, we are responsible only to The Lord, and until He comes this is where our responsibility lies.

Fuel half finishhhhh..

I want to thank Goshen, Okeyz and Shdemidemi for their contribution so far. I want to proceed with verses 6 and following but I think I will wait for frosbel's contribution.

I will look into what hisblud had raised.

My main question here is that is this lifestyle and ministry only unique to Paul alone or is it supposed to be the testimony of all men of God? I understand that God permits both adversity and prosperity in the minister's life, but how come all Paul had to testify in this chapter was simply adversity? Is possible that in the process of watering down our gospel today, we have lost the offence of the cross that is integral to sound gospel preaching?

When I study about this man Paul, it breaks my heart. The guy went through what you and I will call sufferings, in our contemporary churches any man of God that goes through a third of what this man went through could be labelled as 'unannointed'. The guy actually said you and I will go through relative tribulations in this world unlike what the deceivers in the body preach.

2 cor 1

And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.

In the letter to Timothy, you would hardly believe this man was about to killed. Yet, all he was bothered about was the survival and continuity of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He made Timothy see it isn't just him who will suffer in this world for the sake of the gospel when he said

12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

hisblud: @op am a bit concern when you mentioned the bolded. There can not be VARIED view of the gospel, only ONE which is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, this is the gospel wit power. So i would ask you rewrite it as that the Holy Spirit in them will speak thru their individuality to the unity of faith. Not to digress please, just my observation

Actually there are varied views of the gospel and this is so for the reason you also gave and I qoute you

as that the Holy Spirit in them will speak thru their individuality to the unity of faith

This is what allows for these varied views but one gospel. I think the varied views is even allowed by God as long as it adds to the whole purpose of Christ coming and that is the redemption of man. In fact speaking on varied veiws: even though the scriptures are translated from the same hebrew and greek manuscript, we still end up with varied versions. And that is a case of same original manuscript O; talk less of when we are interpreting the manuscript.

So, hisblud, permit the thread to go as I have designed it.

May God give us wisdom , there is nothing we have which we have not received.

I start by quoting the message bible version on this scipture before adding my small opinion in a few minutes.

1 Corinthians 4
The Message (MSG)
4 1-4 Don’t imagine us leaders to be something we aren’t. We are servants of Christ, not his masters. We are guides into God’s most sublime secrets, not security guards posted to protect them. The requirements for a good guide are reliability and accurate knowledge. It matters very little to me what you think of me, even less where I rank in popular opinion. I don’t even rank myself. Comparisons in these matters are pointless. I’m not aware of anything that would disqualify me from being a good guide for you, but that doesn’t mean much. The Master makes that judgment.


Overall this was about Paul always giving all the pre-eminence to Christ Jesus, never projecting himself as some sort of infallible great MAN who knew and had it all.

Paul always concentrated on his weakness for he knew that God's strength is made perfect in weakness, the time we begin to boast in our ability and strength we literally become weak and useless for the purpose which God has called us.

My main question here is that is this lifestyle and ministry only unique to Paul alone or is it supposed to be the testimony of all men of God? I understand that God permits both adversity and prosperity in the minister's life, but how come all Paul had to testify in this chapter was simply adversity?

It was not always adversity in the life of Paul, I don't personally think so.

However the extreme adversity he went through is evidence that our war is against spiritual wickedness in high places and they will fight and resist anyone who tries to spread the light of Gospel and open the eyes of men from darkness to light.

Because Paul was zealous and consumed with the purpose for which God had called him, he became an important and dangerous adversary to SATAN who did everything to thwart his mission.

I really think that this will be the trademark in the lives of true believers who are totally given over to the work of GOD according to their calling, which is not to say we should go looking for adversity, all we need to do , is carry on with the work of GOD , reaching out for the lost ( not the Pharisees ) , exposing the LIE and rescuing those who have defiled their garments , as God gives us ability not beyond our ability. Some of us have biG ability , some small, God will never test us beyond out threshold of endurance. Paul seemed to have a very high threshold due to the large quantities of grace he received from GOD.

In my opinion, I do not see many of our so called MOG suffering adversity of any kind, instead they dine and wine with politicians and the rich men who oppress the poor and enact laws that impoverish the masses. Many of them are false prophets and teachers or Demases.

Paul's testimony is a rebuke to our so called Apostles who are more like semi-gods than servants of Jesus.

Is possible that in the process of watering down our gospel today, we have lost the offence of the cross that is integral to sound gospel preaching?

Indeed yes, many of us are compromisers, period.

That's why you get abused , berated, ostracised and rejected when you speak up on the truth , especially in the church.

Paul did not give a 'damn' about pleasing any MAN , he spoke the truth anyway and suffered dearly for it, even among so called brethren who were really false brethren.

Many of us are occupied with lives of ease and scared of speaking the truth.

Paul is a great role mode , let's emulate him.

Thank you Frosbel for that contribution. You actually hit the nail on the head and it did bring to light much of my suspision. Just to qoute you a bit:

Frosbel:

In my opinion, I do not see many of our so called MOG suffering adversity of any kind, instead they dine and wine with politicians and the rich men who oppress the poor and enact laws that impoverish the masses. Many of them are false prophets and teachers or Demases.

Paul's testimony is a rebuke to our so called Apostles who are more like semi-gods than servants of Jesus.

Goshen 360 brought out a salient point too on the issue of the mystery of the gospel

The ministers of Christ who minister the new testament are stewards or custodians or managers of the mysteries of God. This mysteries is an already revealed one, no longer hidden. Colossians 1:26; Ephesians 1:9, 3:4-5; 1 Timothy 3:9. What is so precious about the 'mysteries of God' that it had to be put or ENTRUSTED to the hands or care of 'ministers of Christ' and what exactly is this 'mysteries of God'? I will save that for another time.

And Shdemidemi call us not to forget the fact that there was an enviroment in which Paul ministered:

Shdemidemi:

In the book of Corinthians, Paul was speaking to people that were deep in pagan custom, a city of brothels and red light district, always busy, they now made fornication as a religious sacrament and profanity was the order. It is similar to our modern day Texas, but with Corinth the main attraction was not casino but temples.

Very instructive.

And Okeyz, reminds us

Where Paul speaks about judgment here, He meant one christian judging another because he has a different doctrine. If a man has a different doctrine, then he has a different calling, ministry and conscience, all validated in the christian principle.

Now this does not mean that ministers of whom you share the same doctrine cannot be judged by you. You both profess the same doctrines and are required to mandate each other to abide by that. If a minister preaches one thing and does not abide by the same, then he must be called-out for his failings and dully reprimanded for unfaithfulness

In much of what we have discussed, there has been little or no disagreement. But this is just an introduction, we are getting to the meat of the discuss. Although Frosbel has mentioned a bit of it but I still desire we look into it. In subsequent discusses, I would postulate my deduction of the verses and then ask some questions. I request, for the sake of uniformity of discuss, that we answer the questions in order. Unfortunately, what makes for a healthy debate, has not arisen so far, because we are mostly agreed. I would have wished to hear from those I refer to as "another camp" - Bidam, Image, etc. But I am sure they will catch with us.

Thanks again guyz.

We proceed

1Cr 4:6 ¶ And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and [to] Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think [of men] above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

I wish to focus on the bolded for now. My pastor here talks about the fact that we all start out preaching someone elses message until we have ours. Jesus seem to have preached John the Baptist messages before he preached his own. Paul, then Saul, preached Barnabas' message before God gave him his own. The problem is with those who seem to plateau on somebody elses' message and never change it. I think God uses men to inspire us but we should never remain in that position. For many years, Tunde Bakare was a model for me, but today, I believe I have my own message different from his. That is why it is foolhardy for some people to come to this forum and be asking frosbel what church does he go to (in a bid to discredit him). The fact that Olaadegbu foolishly publicizes deeper life and their program on this forum does not make it a standard for others. In fact he is only opening himself for the criticism that he so rightly deserves. The tragedy of the likes of Olaadegbu is that they will never discover the message God has given them for their generation.

Yes, it is one gospel, but God in his sovereignty has so crafted men in such a way that this one gospel can reach all kinds of men and minister to their personality and needs without offending any. But if we get caged in one kind of model and never evolve, we will never be effective for Christ in our own right.
Thus the need to follow the apostles' admonition here not think of men beyond what is necessary. No one should be a tin god. The litmus test of the fact that we have not made a human being such is the fact that we can openly criticize them in public, the same way Paul welcomed people's criticism of him.

1Cr 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ [from another]? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received [it]?

So these men we tend to glory in are just mere men. They have treasures in earthen vessels. I cannot fathom why anyone would think a General Superintendent should be above rebuke or church discipline because he is GS? What does a man have that he has not received from above? But this is not a critic of the Deeper Life church, it is an expose on the fact that many of us have strayed far from the apostolic ways.

In 2 Corinthians, Paul is seen as someone who is weak bodily but seems to assert himself in his letters. He said he could be strong bodily if they wanted him to. Then when he discussed the false prophets, he said they where the ones that brow beat the people and these people seem to like it that way:

2Cr 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour [you], if a man take [of you], if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
2Cr 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also

The apostolic way of life and ministry is not one that glories in anointing, sign and wonders, that lords it over the flock, that brow beats people into line with rules and regulation, that is so high up you cannot approach them until you fill form, etc. The apostolic lifestyle is simple and can be taken for granted.

My question: in the light of these two verses, how far, in your opinion, have we strayed from the apostolic way of life?

~~~I am following closely.

Wonderful expositions, thanks guys.

Before we proceed further, I would like to point out something from Shdemidemi's (what does it mean sef? Lol) first post, the last line.

Ministers of d gospel are not ONLY accountable/responsible to God, they are also responsible to the sheep God has given them to shepherd. They owe it to them, just as Goshen pointed out to preach the word of God undiluted.

Well done guys.

^^^lol.. It means I can't go further cos I was tired.

Fuel has finished

Speaking In Tongue?? Is It A Must!??

Is this about the Deeper life issue; or the Church's departure in general from the Apostolic standard or just random thoughts from Paul's letter to the corinthians? I'm yet to understand the direction of the thread, so I don't want to comment off point.

Following closely!!

So far so good, in my opinion there is hardly any church today that operates strictly based on the standards set by the apostles.

ayoku777:

Is this about the Deeper life issue; or the Church's
departure in general from the Apostolic standard or just random thoughts
from Paul's letter to the corinthians? I'm yet to understand the
direction of the thread, so I don't want to comment off point.

Following closely!!

It is not about deeper life. I only made reference to them. Yes random thoughts and exposition on this section of Paul's letter.

We look forward to ur thoughts on them.

I agree with Kun, NO church is following apostolic ways strictly now but is it possible for we to have one that approximates to it?

shdemidemi: ^^^lol.. It means I can't go further cos I was tired.

Fuel has finished

Is that the meaning of Shdemidemi?

sorry for the offtopic sir.

@ post,

I am glad this isn't about any denomination. We can all learn without attracting unnecessary side comments.

Waiting for responses on the last update...

Tgirl4real:

Is that the meaning of Shdemidemi?

sorry for the offtopic sir.

@ post,

I am glad this isn't about any denomination. We can all learn without attracting unnecessary side comments.

Waiting for responses on the last update...

Shdemidemi is an acronym I formed from a combination of my name and my son's.

shdemidemi:

Shdemidemi is an acronym I formed from a combination of my name and my son's.

ok. Thanks for honouring me with a response. I actually thot it's a 'tongue'. Lol

Tgirl4real:

ok. Thanks for honouring me with a response. I actually thot it's a 'tongue'. Lol

...rolling on the floor. You too be 'wicked' saint o. Chei, so you funny like this? Anyway, na Apostle Goshen dey speak in tongues o, shdemidemi doesn't speak mysteries in the spirit. I don laugh tire ooooo

Thus we enter into the meat of this discuss. The reason why I opened this thread. Please notice how far apart verse 8 and 9 are to each other; in fact they are opposite:

1Cr 4:8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
1Cr 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

When Paul describes the Corinthians here as being rich, full and reigning as kings, there is only one picture that comes to my mind: the prosperity gospel. The health and wealth gospel. The gospel that teaches that Christ would have you rich or die trying (the bolded is my addition). This gospel is not just taught; it is lived out in its full splendor. Large cathedrals, large congregation, exotic cars, king-palaced-houses and homes, etc. They even use Paul's literal words here: we are kings; we are gods; we are called to enjoy all of God; etc.

Paul contrast these with the lives of the apostles as one set by God to be appointed to death. We catch a glimpse of a bit of this in 2 Corinthians 1

2Cr 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2Cr 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
2Cr 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, [it is] for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, [it is] for your consolation and salvation.
Cr 1:7 And our hope of you [is] stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so [shall ye be] also of the consolation.
2Cr 1:8 ¶ For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
2Cr 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

This are the realities that confronted Paul's ministry. My question: is this a reality that is expected in the life of modern day Christians or this was unique to Paul because Jesus had said of his ministry in Acts 9

Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Well, let me answer myself partially, while awaiting other responses: it cannot be because Paul had said that it is the apostles, not just himself, that God has set forth and appointed unto death. Then in 2 Cor 1, he says of all believers that God comforts us in our tribulations. So tribulation is not unique to Paul but is for all believers.

He said of these corinthians, like one could say to modern prosperity gospellers, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you[/b]. In other words , you think you are reigning as kings; I wish you really were, so that we too could reign with you. There is a deep contrast between apostolic Christianity and today's Christianity, and the essence of this thread is that we may discover this and begin to inch more and more to the apostolic way of doing things no matter what it cost us.

I end this section by relating an event that occurred to me recently:

I had the wonderful privilege of meeting a missionary, Dr. David Timm, recently in Lagos. Dr Timm is the founder of a ministry called Lost but not Forgotten. The vision of this ministry is to take the gospel to places in Africa were the name of Jesus has not been heard and were Islam is predominant. They hope to cover much of west africa and trust God to invade north africa with the gospel of Jesus. I had a short meeting with him in his hotel at Ikeja were he showed us video clips of his ministry to the lost.

The stricking thing about this man's ministry is the sacrifice that goes into making a mission to these people. Outside the cost of transportation, medical aid, logistics, etc, he also brings along professional friends like him to the mission work. I heard testimonies of conversion from Islam to Christianity, miracles, these people (the Muslims) talking about the fact that they have never heard the gospel at all, etc.

Dr Timm has two PHDs in O&G and pharmacy. He retired recently from these two profession to focus on ministry because of a health challenge, but seeing him I saw a modern day Paul. My friend who introduced me to him says that Dr Timm is a dead man walking: that is his passion for the gospel. Here is a link to his ministry's website http://www.lostbutnotforgotten.org/.

I used Timm as an example of many sound men, serving the Lord in a sacrificial manner, like Paul, but who are generally unknown. I understand, like frosbel, said that the calling may sometimes dictates the challenge that will come with it; and God has so designed everyone to take a certain amount of problems. But verse 8 is an indictment on so much we call church and ministry today.

I'm sorry guy, i arrived late for this discussion but please permit me to drag you back a little.
1cor 4:1, my translation uses stronger word so pls permit me. people should think of us as christ servants, stewards entrusted with the mysteries of God
this seem to b d bedrock of d chapter,
pls note unlike most translations, my translation doesn't say minister is says 'servants', not just that but stewards, the passage of scripture is a direct parallel to lk 12:42-44, and i quote the lord replied "who then is wise and trustworthy steward that the master will put over his household to give them at the proper time their allowance of food?", if i laid down precept upon precept then it becomes clear.

The minister, is truly a servant, Jesus is his master. The food which he is to to give the household of christ, the church on earth is no other thing but the mysteries of God which he himself was entrusted. It is important to note that the steward isn't suppose to invent the mysteries, no! The mysteries are entrusted to him, i believe goshen touched this point a little. Unlike frosbel i believe the true steward is both a guard and a guide, as a guide he must lead people even more deeper into these mysteries, he must proclaim it and minister it unto the people that is what christ meant when he said "to give them their food in due time", the steward must feed the household but must also guard it. The mysteries must be kept whole without stain, he must guard those mysteries against every lie, falsehood and heresy.
In this passage paul shows us what is expected of a trustworthy steward(cf vs 2), and reminds us that d steward is always accountable to his master Jesus christ, to him be glory for ever.

It seem i have lost my post, but suffice to say that i disagree with the idea of a different gospel for a different minister.

DrummaBoy: We proceed

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I wish to focus on the bolded for now. My pastor here talks about the fact that we all start out preaching someone elses message until we have ours. Jesus seem to have preached John the Baptist messages before he preached his own. Paul, then Saul, preached Barnabas' message before God gave him his own. The problem is with those who seem to plateau on somebody elses' message and never change it. I think God uses men to inspire us but we should never remain in that position. For many years, Tunde Bakare was a model for me, but today, I believe I have my own message different from his. That is why it is foolhardy for some people to come to this forum and be asking frosbel what church does he go to (in a bid to discredit him). The fact that Olaadegbu foolishly publicizes deeper life and their program on this forum does not make it a standard for others. In fact he is only opening himself for the criticism that he so rightly deserves. The tragedy of the likes of Olaadegbu is that they will never discover the message God has given them for their generation.

Yes, it is one gospel, but God in his sovereignty has so crafted men in such a way that this one gospel can reach all kinds of men and minister to their personality and needs without offending any. But if we get caged in one kind of model and never evolve, we will never be effective for Christ in our own right.
Thus the need to follow the apostles' admonition here not think of men beyond what is necessary. No one should be a tin god. The litmus test of the fact that we have not made a human being such is the fact that we can openly criticize them in public, the same way Paul welcomed people's criticism of him.

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So these men we tend to glory in are just mere men. They have treasures in earthen vessels. I cannot fathom why anyone would think a General Superintendent should be above rebuke or church discipline because he is GS? What does a man have that he has not received from above? But this is not a critic of the Deeper Life church, it is an expose on the fact that many of us have strayed far from the apostolic ways.

In 2 Corinthians, Paul is seen as someone who is weak bodily but seems to assert himself in his letters. He said he could be strong bodily if they wanted him to. Then when he discussed the false prophets, he said they where the ones that brow beat the people and these people seem to like it that way:

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The apostolic way of life and ministry is not one that glories in anointing, sign and wonders, that lords it over the flock, that brow beats people into line with rules and regulation, that is so high up you cannot approach them until you fill form, etc. The apostolic lifestyle is simple and can be taken for granted.

My question: in the light of these two verses, how far, in your opinion, have we strayed from the apostolic way of life?

Pastor Kun: So far so good, in my opinion there is hardly any church today that operates strictly based on the standards set by the apostles.

i do not think the is the main issue, atleast every church i can think of expects her minister even admonish them to follow truly the standards of d apostle according to a good concience, whether or not that is true of every minister isn't dependent on any church but on the decision of the individual to truly and strictly follow that standard.