shdemidemi: Yes, even that. No leaf drops from the tree without God's consent.

rationalmind:

nothing I no go read for nairaland. So, God consents to suicide but will punish whoever does it by roasting in hell till eternity. Lol, I really wish you people knew how you sound.

rudedough:

[b]Shouldn't you be ashamed of yourself? I'm an Atheist but I've read your bible but you're a Christian and you know much less about your bible and religion. You don't even know that your God accepts human sacrifices like Ogun and Amadioha.

rudedough:
Stop talking please, you're making a show of shame. Go and study your bible 1st and tell your friend @seemylife that the woman he's talking about wasn't a prostitute. The teachers used her as a trap to accuse Jesus.

John 8:2–11
Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him,

“Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?”

This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him.

When you guys have read your bible, I will be open to discuss with you about your bible and religion cos right now, you guys are only repeating what your Pastors told you like an automated machine.[/b]

DrummaBoy:

@rudedough

Even when I had not read your reply to my post, I did something this morning that I rarely do about my discussions on Nairaland: I prayed that this very discussion will help bring the understanding of Christ in the Person of God to our readers. I thought I should say that for whatever it is worth.

The second point I must state is that I have said in my reply to your question that I believe you are offended with God. It is not a question of whether God exists or not, it is the fact that you are unhappy with him. From your reaction to my reply, this[b] unhappiness stems from why God allowed and supported the killing of infants in the Old Testament, including the ripping apart of pregnant women[/b]; and it could include other things that you have not told us here. I do not believe I have an easy answer for you. I do not even think I have an answer. That is why there is the need to pray. The One that can answer you truly is God: and he will give you an answer of peace.

The third point I will like to state is about dogma. Christians are dogmatic. We hold the bible as the word of God and final authority on all issues of life. We may be maligned for it but we simply have no apology for it. That is why I did not dispute the verses you quoted; I only tried to offer some explanations for them.

The fourth thing I must state, sir, is that I do not see the rudedough that I have come to know to be one who will opt out of a discuss that easily. One of the best arguments against tithing in recent times on this forum has come from you; to then "chicken" out of a discuss on God all because of an offence will do great diservice to your person. Or does it reveal something that is yet to be revealed?

The fifth thing: Charles Colson discussed about a famous American Atheist, Madalyn Murray O'Hair, in his book: The Good Life. This woman took American Public Schools to court saying that public prayer and bible reading should be banned in American Public Schools. She won her case at the Supreme Court, bible reading were banned in public schools and became an overnight celebrity. She went on the form an association of American Atheists, that grew to become a very famous association. Rude may be aware of these people. A few years before this woman's death, Mr Colson, a Christian minister met her on a TV show and the host of the show wanted them to discuss the matter of God. Colson presented his reasons why God exists. Miss O'Hair only snared at Colson through out the interview, ranting that God is blood thirsty and that the bible is full of wars were Children were murdered. She refused to discuss any rational thing with this man of God.

Sometimes in the early 90's Miss O'Hair got into some scandals in regards to how resources belonging to the American Atheists group was being used. She was the founder and president (a kind of Pentecostal church). About the time she was going to be indicted, she hired some unscrupulous fellows to help cover her tracks. These guys with criminal records already did a good job but went on to fall out with her. The result of the fallout let to their kidnapping Miss O'Hair, her son and grand daughter for many days. She was declared missing. Many days later her decomposing body and that of her son and grand daughter were found in an isolated place. She had been dismembered and cut in pieces.

The morale of the story? Atheism does not pay. But that is not really the lesson: I wish to show that most atheist really have no argument beyond the fact that God is blood thirsty and kills children. When you explain to them the nature of the Old Covenant and dispensations they snare at it and say all of bible is relevant - the very error of tithe proponents; a position that rudedough uses very well against tithers on this forum but has chosen to stand against to justify his position that God is blood thirsty.

I still maintain the scriptures my friend quoted in page 0 are true and I will not argue against them. But my friend knows very well the difference btw the New and the Old Convenat bc he uses that very argument against tithers on this forum. It is that argument I wish to show to him that justifies a God of grace in the new testament against a God of wrath in the Old.

I am afraid, however, that the more an individual meditates on a lie and allows it to build up offence in him against the truth of the word of God, the more it becomes impossible to penetrate to him. If God asked for the life of children in the Old Testament, it was in keeping with a ministration of death he had with those people then; is there any record of God demanding blood in the NT (My new question to you if you wish to continue the discuss)?

I see that you have returned to the thread and I will encourage that the discussion continues. If however, you are still not interested in continuing the discussion, I believe that you have found all the answers that you have raging against God in this life through his own people. I trust those answers will minister to you and help you to come to faith in the person of Jesus Christ in due time; God is full of grace and love - the very nature of God which he had even revealed to Moses on the mount, even if he didn't practice much of it then until now. We are in a time in which the love of God propelled him to send his Son to die for all men; as many as believe in his will be saved. Those who do not are on a collision course with a God of wrath; revealed in the OT and yet to be revealed in coming dispensations like shdemidemi had mentioned earlier.

shdemidemi:

What makes you think God punishes anyone who commit suicide by 'roasting' them in hell?

shdemidemi: Ashamed of what really? I really don't know how you came to your conclusion that you have exclusive information the rest of us are yet to know about within scriptures. Take the chip off your shoulders bro.

shdemidemi: What exactly is new about what you have said here bro? What exactly are you groused about, there is no God or God is wicked?

What is new is that the woman in question wasn't a prostitute as you claimed, and then Jesus did not stop a woman from being stoned, it was all a test to accuse him. Get it now?

Now about my "Chipped shoulders", it is called an Ego. I have an over-bloated Ego. You guys talk about ego like ego is a bad habit. That perception is wrong, and a lot of people like yourself make that mistake. Ego is good for human development. Psychologically, egoism is viewed as human's motivation by rational self-interest. Achievers are often criticized for their ego, but it is the ego that drives them to achieve.

So bro, there is nothing wrong stating the obvious that a Christian like yourself know a lot less than an Atheist do about your religion and bible. You should be ashamed.

rudedough:

[b]Shouldn't you be ashamed of yourself? I'm an Atheist but I've read your bible but you're a Christian and you know much less about your bible and religion. You don't even know that your God accepts human sacrifices like Ogun and Amadioha.

Stop talking please, you're making a show of shame. Go and study your bible 1st and tell your friend @seemylife that the woman he's talking about wasn't a prostitute. The teachers used her as a trap to accuse Jesus.

John 8:2–11
Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him,

“Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?”

This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him.

When you guys have read your bible, I will be open to discuss with you about your bible and religion cos right now, you guys are only repeating what your Pastors told you like an automated machine.[/b]

seemylife:

Lol...,the more you open your mouth the more you expose yourself. Who said the woman was a prostitute...? lol? You are one of those that will go as low as lying to score prove a point. Aren't you? Go back and read my posts son!

And while you are at it ponder on why "Jesus did not allow her to be stoned"

DrummaBoy: @Rudedough

It is my own turn to "chicken" out!

I would no longer be discussing God with you on this thread. Some other Christian can do it but I think I have provided sufficient proof for whatever grouse you have against God and religion in all the posts I have made on this thread.

I still believe that the position you have taken against God for killing infants is an unfortunate one and it proceeds for a very carnal way of looking at a scripture that is deeply spiritual.

Every scripture you have quoted that paints God as a Valian are scripture and very true. I will not disprove them.

As for your question as to whether God is really good and the devil is really bad, I have said enough on that; I do not believe that any other thing I will say on it will change your position.

I wish you all the best my good friend and hope to still meet you up, especially on other tithe threads.

As for those who may want to malign me for "loosing" this "debate"; I would rather take this dishonorable path than get someone who still has a future with God come to discuss Jesus Christ and possibly his Holy Spirit, blaspheme God and seal his damnation.

I will still visit the thread (it is my thread) but will rarely comment.

Cheers guys and Merry Christmas!!!

@Drummerboy No you're running away because of my questions. Not that you care about my damnation.

rudedough: Please show me where Satan killed:

Show me where Satan, the devil destroyed anything even a glass cup:

Show me where he lied:

And then show me where he murdered even a chicken:

Now ask me the same thing of your loving God and I'll show you in multiple occurrence in the bible.

After these questions, we shall discuss Jesus.

Secondly you don't want to discuss Jesus Christ, the all good Jesus who was ready to kill when the high priests were coming to arrest him. He asked his disciples to sell their cloak and buy swords for battle.

Luke 22:36
He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Was that not the sword one of disciples used to strike the guards cutting off his right ear? Tell me again that Jesus is not as violent as his father.

When i was younger, i thought the disciple stroke because of the love he had for Jesus, they didn't tell me that Jesus was the one who asked them to buy the swords. Drummerboy come back and discuss Jesus ooo, i am warning you, come back now and discuss your good Jesus.

rudedough:

[size=10pt]Shouldn't you be ashamed of yourself? I'm an Atheist but I've read your bible but you're a Christian and you know much less about your bible and religion. You don't even know that your God accepts human sacrifices like Ogun and Amadioha.

macof:

Actually Ogun and Amadioha don't accept human blood.
None of their devotees are into human sacrifice.

Ogun accepts only dogs and goats

Well we now know which of the gods will be asking for drops of water in hell.

rudedough:

[b]It's either one of 2 scenarios.

it is either i made a mistake which if that be the case i am deeply sorry or you have edited your post.

But since you have accepted that it was all a test, and they wouldn't have leached the woman if Jesus had asked them to, i think i can live with that. Cos the way you Christians talk about that part of the bible, feel as though Jesus was against the leaching of prostitute and adulterers.

Listen to your good Jesus

Matthew 5:17-18
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished".

In other words, the 613 laws of Moses still stands. And it includes:

Stoning of Adulterer and Prostitute
Stoning of disobedient children.
Dashing of new born babies against a rock
If a man ra.pes a girl, and the woman did not shout so loud that the whole city hear her cry, she will be stoned to death.
And if a child is ra.ped by a man, no biggies, the man just need to pay some money and take her home and ra.pe her some more.

Yeah those are a few laws the Good Jesus came to fulfill. But when he was hanged according to the same law, Christians started crying fowl.[/b]

rudedough:

Listen to your good Jesus

Matthew 5:17-18
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished".

In other words, the 613 laws of Moses still stands. And it includes:

Stoning of Adulterer and Prostitute
Stoning of disobedient children.
Dashing of new born babies against a rock
If a man ra.pes a girl, and the woman did not shout so loud that the whole city hear her cry, she will be stoned to death.
And if a child is ra.ped by a man, no biggies, the man just need to pay some money and take her home and ra.pe her some more.

Yeah those are a few laws the Good Jesus came to fulfill. But when he was hanged according to the same law, Christians started crying fowl.[/size][/b]

shdemidemi:

Now I understand that you have been beguiled by ignorance and lack of understanding of the scriptures. This I say not to disrespect you but to show you what some of these things mean spiritually. Like you have missed the spiritual connotation of the scriptures, you have also missed what the verse you quoted is saying.

Matthew 5:17-18
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets;-----

What exactly is the law?

The law is the decree set up as the standard for the administration of justice to the nation of Israel. (Note that the bible is not one big story book, it spoke to specific people at different times albeit we can learn on how God dealt with a certain sect to understand how He would deal with us). The law became guide that interpret the way these nation live their lives. The aim of the law fro man's perspective was to restrain evil tendencies natural to man as a result of the fall; yet in experience law finds itself not only ineffective, it actually proves those tendencies to greater activity.

There is now a conundrum, the law is good but man is naturally sinful hence he cannot fulfill all the requirements of the law. By principle SIN + LAW= DEATH. The nation of Israel used animals to atone for the transgression of the law every year as God commanded. At the time of Jesus, He needed to find a way of fulfilling the requirement of the law not only for this nation but for the whole world.


... I did not come to abolish but to fulfill...

Christ came to pay the price/wages of the sinful nature we inherited as a result of being the offspring of Adam. He did not come to say the law should be put aside as at the time He was speaking here. He came to fulfill/accomplish the requirement of the law which says SIN + LAW= DEATH. There as to be a death of a testator, the death of a lamb without blemish.


"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished".

Everything written in the book of the law remains valid and should be practiced until the price of sin is paid. The law revealed how sinful, sin really is. Jesus became the sin of the world. he was nailed to the cross as a final atonement, all of the requirement was accomplished on the cross.

rudedough:

You're trying too hard to change the context of the bible. Shame on you!! I don't argue with people who pretend that they don't understand the bible, interpret the bible out of context and tell the confused person that the bible is not a "Story book" but a "Spiritual book of parables" that needs a "spiritual goggle" to be interpreted.

Simple Basic English Language: I did not come to stop the killing but i have come to see that the killing is fulfilled.

My interpretation: I did not come to stop the killing but i have come to fulfill (SYNONYMS: achieve, attain, realize, actualize, make happen, succeed in, bring to completion, bring to fruition, satisfy) it.

Your Interpretation: I did not come to stop the killing but i have come to "kill myself" so that the killing will stop.

Are you that re.tard.ed sir or you're just trying too hard to be funny this time only?

shdemidemi:

Respect yourself please and maintain decorum. This isnt as personal as you like to paint it, you can believe or not believe its your choice.

so wherever you see the law, you decide to replace it with kill. All in the name of wanting to be seen as a victim..if anything you are the one trying too hard by editing what was written.

Really? Everything about the law is to "KILL" read your bible. Ok lets take the least of crimes.

What is the punishment for stealing?
What is the punishment for disobedience to your parents?
What is the punishment for fornication?

These are very minor crimes but your Good Jesus came to fulfill (SYNONYMS: achieve, attain, realize, actualize, make happen, succeed in, bring to completion, bring to fruition, satisfy) that the killing is completely executed.

Now tell me which crimes does not carry a death penalty in the law. Let me tell you one.

Ra.pe does not carry a death penalty depending on whether you ra.pe the woman in the city or in the village... Those are the laws your good Jesus came to fulfill. Cover your face in shame Mr. cos with the way you just interpreted the bible, according to the law its "blasphemy" you should be hanged and pierced with a sword.

I DID NOT WRITE THE BIBLE.

rudedough:

Really? Everything about the law is to "KILL" read your bible. Ok lets take the least of crimes.

What is the punishment for stealing?
What is the punishment for disobedience to your parents?
What is the punishment for fornication?

These are very minor crimes but your Good Jesus came to fulfill (SYNONYMS: achieve, attain, realize, actualize, make happen, succeed in, bring to completion, bring to fruition, satisfy) that the killing is completely executed.

Now tell me which crimes does not carry a death penalty in the law. Let me tell you one.

Ra.pe does not carry a death penalty depending on whether you ra.pe the woman in the city or in the village... Those are the laws your good Jesus came to fulfill. Cover your face in shame Mr. cos with the way you just interpreted the bible, according to the law its "blasphemy" you should be hanged and pierced with a sword.

I DID NOT WRITE THE BIBLE.

shdemidemi:

No one is saying the law was perfect, the bible described it as weak and beggarly. Paul said even their fathers could not bear the demands hence Jesus died to bring the nation of Israel out of that law that kills.
2 cor 3
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Jesus did not bring death like you erroneously insinuate but He brought life and liberty after he fulfilled the demands of the law.

Your problem is that you don't read your bible or you read it with so much emotional attachment.

Jesus did not come to change the law, he came to fulfill it. And now you're talking about the new covenant. What is the new covenant? Where did Jesus preach against the law in the bible?

According to the bible, where did they stop killing thieves and stoning disobedient children? Didn't you read that Jesus was crucified amongst 2 thieves? Mehn the way you guys interpret this bible is stu.pidly foo.lish in my opinion.

If the Jews could prosecute and hang the good Jesus according to the law, the son of God for an ordinary crime of blasphemy in the New Testament. Who is the supposedly ordinary man to suggest that the law wasn't invoke after the death of Jesus? Where did you read that in the bible?

Korokoro truth you dey try whine me...

rudedough:

Your problem is that you don't read your bible or you read it with so much emotional attachment.

Jesus did not come to change the law, he came to fulfill it. And now you're talking about the new covenant. What is the new covenant? Where did Jesus preach against the law in the bible?

According to the bible, where did they stop killing thieves and stoning disobedient children? Didn't you read that Jesus was crucified amongst 2 thieves? Mehn the way you guys interpret this bible is stu.pidly foo.lish in my opinion.

If the Jews could prosecute and hang the good Jesus according to the law, the son of God for an ordinary crime of blasphemy in the New Testament. Who is the supposedly ordinary man to suggest that the law wasn't invoke after the death of Jesus? Where did you read that in the bible?

Korokoro truth you dey try whine me...

shdemidemi: Easy bro, you are missing a lot of things about who the person is.

Mary would have been so excited as she carried the baby with the swaddling cloth she saw in the stable all smelling of milk from the cow, also in confusion of what name to call him...My baby, My Saviour, My Master, Jesus, My Lord or My God.

He was all of that to Mary, did he come for Mary? no, he came with a message to the world. If anything I see humility where you see disrespect.

Well Atheists are seeing how Christians are comfortable with murder, killing of Children, opening of a pregnant woman with a sword to strike the unborn child, ra.pe, looting, genocide, slavery, torture etc.

Now we have seen that Christians are also comfortable with disrespect to one's parents. In your own words and on behalf of your Christian brothers and sisters, you said "did he come for Mary? no, he came with a message to the world. If anything I see humility where you see disrespect".

You see humility leaving your parents outside in the cold because he's God child. Well that says it all but i am not teaching my kids those kind of moral values.

shdemidemi:

Your problem is ignorance, when we say new testament it really kick started from the book of Acts after Jesus served as the sacrifice.

If you really want to know the mind of Jesus, take time to go read the epistles of Paul.

Oboy they have started with another apologetic excuse ooo..

So the new Testament did not start from Matthew again? From act now so we can consider Matt - John among the Old Testament.

Oboy wahala dey ooo...

Goshen360: ^ I dey sideline dey laugh you in the Spirit o. You dey form for your eyes abi?

My brother, i dey my own neutral side oo, na drummerboy say make i come talk about Atheism for this new thread, say him wan convert me to Christian. Now the drummerboy don run say him dey "Chicken out".

And these chicken foot soldiers come take over. Make we enjoy bible study na or Sunday school after all na Jesus birthday.

rudedough:

Oboy they have started with another apologetic excuse ooo..

So the new Testament did not start from Matthew again? From act now so we can consider Matt - John among the Old Testament.

Oboy wahala dey ooo...

Goshen360:

So you claim say you sabi bible and you no efen know that simple truth say new testament start from Acts? Oboy e, you don fail elementary o. How you wan enter secondary naw?

My man no vex now... I no know say na Act the New Testament start, you know say i no dey go Church. I confuse because when i dey read the bible, after Malachi, i see where them write with bold letter, the type wey PAGAN 9JA dey always use write. "THE NEW TESTAMENT" and it start from Matthew.

Oya make i tear the page comot shift am go Act side so that i no go dey confuse again.