mbaemeka:

Believing + Speaking = FAITH.

That is your own gospel. It is not what the Bible teaches. Yours is a false gospel. Scripture and the dictionary shows that

Believing = FAITH

Your equation is not balanced and it is erroneous.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

WinsomeX:

That is your own gospel. It is not what the Bible teaches. Yours is a false gospel. Scripture and the dictionary shows that

Believing = FAITH

People said worse to Jesus. They say same about Paul. I am not offended. Besides I don't take my authority from a dictionary. It explains why some of you are so confused about the scriptures. Ruminate on this:


2 Corinthians 4:13King James Version (KJV)
13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Tell your dictionary to conform to Paul. Paul just said faith- believes and therefore speaks.

Your equation is not balanced and it is erroneous.

So says you and your dictionary. James and Paul disagree. Jesus too. I trust them more.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Oh lord! How do I believe?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You believe and therefore speak. That's faith.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Yes the man doesn't need to obey his parents; stop sinning;start going to church etc. before he becomes saved. He just has to say "I believe Jesus is Lord" after believing it in his heart and he will be saved.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved

Exactly what I said above. If you confess the Lord Jesus with THY MOUTH after believing in THINE HEART that God raised him thou shall be SAVED.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If you believe you will speak. They work viz-a-viz. Geez.

Candour:

There's no contradiction if you take the whole into consideration. The "seems" I put there was in italics

Then you cannot keep one scripture on Believing and speaking away from your purported (purported because it doesn't exist) "only believing".

@the bolded, has anybody said anything about denying Jesus? Pls point it out if I missed it. The act of confessing Christ is a daily affair and isn't what we are talking about here.

When a man is saved, he'll want to tell the world but its not his telling the world that saved him. Its his salvation that enables him tell the world

Confessing what I believe [in this case Christ] is what I have been talking about. And No it is his faith that enables him tell the world and not his"salvation". Do you feel saved? How so?

@the bolded, do you know some more modern English bible translations render Rom 10:10 in a different manner than KJV? For instance, see amplified version

Rom 10:10 AMP For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.

Even the AMP supports me. It says with the mouth he speaks/declares his faith and CONFIRMS his salvation.

Pls don't force the bible to say what you want it to say. The man wasn't called a believer before he got his miracle. He was just another man in the crowd seeking a miracle. In any case, you remember you also said a miracle can't occur without verbal confession?

The bible says Paul perceived the man had FAITH to be healed. The faith the man had was the one to be healed. It automatically means he already had faith in the gospel that he heard Paul preach a day or time before Paul healed him. That faith in the gospel made him saved.

Yes a miracle wrought by a person on the person's own situation requires his verbal proclamation or act. In this case Paul was the one who spoke the word on the man while the man responded by acting on Paul's instruction.

If a man believes in his heart from now till eternity that God want's him healed from an ailment it would not change the situation. The man would get weaker and weaker and weaker till he may eventually die. But when he speaks out, he has activated his faith and will receive a miracle [or what he speaks out]

@the bolded, is that not what we've been saying since? They were saved which is why the Holy Ghost gave them the utterance. They were saved before they started speaking. Their speaking was God's way of showing Peter and the world that "I've saved these ones already, keep your Jewish hangups in your pocket". It confirmed their salvation to the world, not to God. If God didn't see them as already saved, he wouldn't have released the Holy Spirit to them.

If they didn't open their mouths to speak they would have been right with God [for they already were even before Peter came] but they wouldn't have been saved. When they spoke they activated the faith that they had by already believing the gospel that Peter preached. God saw them as right/acceptable but not saved. When they opened their mouths, they were confirmed.

Of course the demons will hear me speak it everyday but whether they hear or pretend not to, it WILL NEVER EXPUNGE my name from the book of life

Of course, as long as God heard you. God expects us to speak/confess what we believe. The Greek word for confess as used in Romans 10:9-10 is Homologia and it means to say the same things God has said concerning you in agreement with him and not to start saying "Oh God I am a sinner, save me". If God says "If you believe my son died and was raised for your sake you are saved" you ought to say "yes Lord, I believe your son died and was raised for my sake. I know I am saved". That's why I say "I dwell in health etc." Because God has said "By the stripes on his son's body I was healed". If I was healed, then I am healed and will always be in good health. Glorrrrrry!

Will God refuse to answer me if I don't verbalise my request? See below

1 Samuel 1:13 KJV
Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.

What do you think of Hannah case? Have you ever received a miracle you wished for but never prayed for? I have

Scripture says Hannah's lips moved but Eli didn't hear (actually understand) what she said. It doesn't mean God didn't hear her. And yes I have received miracles without Prayer sometimes. That's why I told Trustman not everything must be lumped into prayer. Some can come by just acting our faith.

Mark 2:5, 10-12 KJV
When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. [10] But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) [11] I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. [12] And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

Where is the confession either in the healing or in the forgiveness of sins for the man above?

Again this is faith to be healed and it is somewhat different from personal faith because Jesus was to do the healing. The man and his family had faith in Jesus already- they believed all they heard about him. Now Jesus perceives their faith because they broke the roof of his house to bring the man in just so he could heal him. That's an act of faith. They believed and acted like they did.

Can blinking of the eyes also serve to show this confirmation of salvation? What about a thumbs up or nodding of the head? Are we free to substitute any action we like in place of "speaking with the mouth"?

Sure, it's an act of faith. Of course, I am not God so I don't know what he will do in such situations as the word didn't expressly state so and I haven't studied the issue that deeply. He can break protocols for dumb people (he is that kind).

mbaemeka:

Then you cannot keep one scripture on Believing and speaking away from your purported (purported because it doesn't exist) "only believing".

It might be purported to you but it was very real to Christ.

John 3:16 KJV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Believe and you're saved.

Confessing what I believe [in this case Christ] is what I have been talking about. And No it is his faith that enables him tell the world and not his"salvation". Do you feel saved? How so?

Because he's saved, he can now tell the world. That's what my statement there meant.

Even the AMP supports me. It says with the mouth he speaks/declares his faith and CONFIRMS his salvation.

No it doesn't. Its God that validates, certifies and confirms us as believers. When we confess or tell others, we confirm it to the world that we are saved.

The bible says Paul perceived the man had FAITH to be healed. The faith the man had was the one to be healed. It automatically means he already had faith in the gospel that he heard Paul preach a day or time before Paul healed him. That faith in the gospel made him saved.

Paul perceived the man had faith to be healed. The scripture made it very clear the man made no confession of faith concerning it. The belief was in his heart and God honoured it.

Yes a miracle wrought by a person on the person's own situation requires his verbal proclamation or act. In this case Paul was the one who spoke the word on the man while the man responded by acting on Paul's instruction.

Now you're creating a dichotomy. So what about the ruler of the synagogue? Jesus a greater than Paul was the one in charge there so why are you insisting the man had to have verbalised his faith? Could Christ words alone not save him without him speaking it like this lame man?

If a man believes in his heart from now till eternity that God want's him healed from an ailment it would not change the situation. The man would get weaker and weaker and weaker till he may eventually die. But when he speaks out, he has activated his faith and will receive a miracle [or what he speaks out]

Are you trying to limit God? Can you dictate to God how he runs his show? So a dumb man can't get any touch from God except he first gets his tongue loosed first? You think he isn't allowed to get answers to prayers he said in his heart?

If they didn't open their mouths to speak they would have been right with God [for they already were even before Peter came] but they wouldn't have been saved. When they spoke they activated the faith that they had by already believing the gospel that Peter preached. God saw them as right/acceptable but not saved. When they opened their mouths, they were confirmed.

So how does someone get right with God and stay unsaved? You have any examples in scriptures? If Cornelius moved his lips but spoke in his heart like Hannah did without peter and others hearing him, would he not be saved?

Of course, as long as God heard you. God expects us to speak/confess what we believe. The Greek word for confess as used in Romans 10:9-10 is Homologia and it means to say the same things God has said concerning you in agreement with him and not to start saying "Oh God I am a sinner, save me". If God says "If you believe my son died and was raised for your sake you are saved" you ought to say "yes Lord, I believe your son died and was raised for my sake. I know I am saved". That's why I say "I dwell in health etc." Because God has said "By the stripes on his son's body I was healed". If I was healed, then I am healed and will always be in good health. Glorrrrrry!

A saved man will proclaim his salvation. He must be saved before he can proclaim and confess to the world that he's saved.

What happens to the man who can't speak?

Scripture says Hannah's lips moved but Eli didn't hear (actually understand) what she said. It doesn't mean God didn't hear her. And yes I have received miracles without Prayer sometimes. That's why I told Trustman not everything must be lumped into prayer. Some can come by just acting our faith.

God wasn't concerned with Hannah's lips, that was Eli's problem to worry about. God had already heard the words in her heart. See the scripture again

1 Samuel 1:13 KJV
Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.

The bible was very clear. Her speaking was in her heart. Not a word came from her lips, her voice was not heard but God heard the speech in her heart and he answered.

Again this is faith to be healed and it is somewhat different from personal faith because Jesus was to do the healing. The man and his family had faith in Jesus already- they believed all they heard about him. Now Jesus perceives their faith because they broke the roof of his house to bring the man in just so he could heal him. That's an act of faith. They believed and acted like they did.

Do you agree a man that hears or reads the gospel, believes it and falls down on his knees in his room asking God to save him is saved whether anybody was there with him and heard him or not?

Sure, it's an act of faith. Of course, I am not God so I don't know what he will do in such situations as the word didn't expressly state so and I haven't studied the issue that deeply. He can break protocols for dumb people (he is that kind).

@the bolded, Thank God almighty. This is where God is sovereign. He can decide to break protocols for the dumb and can decide to break it for whomsoever he will. There's no searching out of his wisdom, mercy or power.

Romans 9:15-16 KJV
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

That's why God is God.

Cheers

Candour:
Paul perceived the man had faith to be healed. The scripture made it very clear the man made no confession of faith concerning it. The belief was in his heart and God honoured it.

If you have any experiences in using the name of Jesus to cause a healing to come to someone this would have been settled without much ado. The scripture didn't say Paul perceived that the man had faith in God or faith to be saved. It said faith to be healed. That's why Paul told him to act it.

Now you're creating a dichotomy. So what about the ruler of the synagogue? Jesus a greater than Paul was the one in charge there so why are you insisting the man had to have verbalised his faith? Could Christ words alone not save him without him speaking it like this lame man?

There's no dichotomy as such. Jesus didn't heal people with his faith all the time. Some like the woman with the issue of blood used her faith in Jesus to heal herself. To the ruler of the synagogue the man expressed faith in Jesus and then Jesus healed the girl. The woman with the Issue of blood didn't get healed because she thought of it in her heart. She got healed because she acted on what she believed in her heart.

Are you trying to limit God? Can you dictate to God how he runs his show? So a dumb man can't get any touch from God except he first gets his tongue loosed first? You think he isn't allowed to get answers to prayers he said in his heart?

Nobody can limit God "per se". I say per se because if we step outside the ambit of his word he would do nothing for us. For example, Peter would have drowned while Jesus was looking at and present with him because he acted in doubt.

So I didn't say a dumb man can't get a touch from God except his tongue his loosed. God can do as he pleases but he usually acts in line with his word for he is his word. He told Moses to speak to the rock yet Moses struck it but the water still came out. Then he told Moses he wouldn't get to the promised land for going against his word. That's why we are to follow his word to the letter (and Spirit!). John the Baptist's dad Zechariah was struck dumb by an angel so that he wouldn't use his mouth to distort the miracle of his son's birth. Our speaking is important. I can't stress it enough.

So how does someone get right with God and stay unsaved? You have any examples in scriptures? If Cornelius moved his lips but spoke in his heart like Hannah did without peter and others hearing him, would he not be saved?

Hannah spoke but Eli didn't hear what she said. Everyone in scripture who believed spoke the word. Christianity according to church history used to be called "the great confession". Cornelius is one who was right with God but was unsaved.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him

The preceding verses said God already sent an angel to tell Cornelius to send for Peter because God told him he had heard his prayers and seen his good works. This corresponds with verse 35 above. But in Acts 11 Peter says exactly what the Angel told Cornelius:

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Peter had to tell him words by which he was to be saved. Which he wasn't saved but he was already right with God.

God wasn't concerned with Hannah's lips, that was Eli's problem to worry about. God had already heard the words in her heart. See the scripture again

1 Samuel 1:13 KJV
Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.

The bible was very clear. Her speaking was in her heart. Not a word came from her lips, her voice was not heard but God heard the speech in her heart and he answered

Her lips moved but her voice was not heard therefore Eli thought she was drunk. Have you seen a drunk person act? They may be mumbling inaudible words. You would know they are saying something but you may not understand it because of how inaudible it was. That's what happened here. Of course, God hears everyone's heart but she spoke out to his hearing alone. She didn't want Eli to know she was asking for a child or making a vow. He was trying to read her lips. Look at verses 11 and 12 of the same chapter:

11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O Lord of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the Lord all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.

12 And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the Lord, that Eli marked her mouth.

Do you agree a man that hears or reads the gospel, believes it and falls down on his knees in his room asking God to save him is saved whether anybody was there with him and heard him or not?

100%

@the bolded, Thank God almighty. This is where God is sovereign. He can decide to break protocols for the dumb and can decide to break it for whomsoever he will. There's no searching out of his wisdom, mercy or power.

I agree in this context.

mbaemeka:

If you have any experiences in using the name of Jesus to cause a healing to come to someone this would have been settled without much ado.

Can you pls quit the condescending remarks? I don't appreciate it and I believe we have an 'agreement' (maybe unspoken) to maintain some civility in our exchanges?

The scripture didn't say Paul perceived that the man had faith in God or faith to be saved. It said faith to be healed. That's why Paul told him to act it.

@the bolded, you have a record of me saying that? My point has always been about the man NOT making any confession before his faith was perceived by Paul which is exactly what scripture said.

There's no dichotomy as such. Jesus didn't heal people with his faith all the time. Some like the woman with the issue of blood used her faith in Jesus to heal herself. To the ruler of the synagogue the man expressed faith in Jesus and then Jesus healed the girl. The woman with the Issue of blood didn't get healed because she thought of it in her heart. She got healed because she acted on what she believed in her heart.

The summary is "God cannot be put in a box". No man born of a woman can say he has deciphered God or he can decipher God. He's the God that cant be searched out. He can do and has done things with or without the recipients confession, faith or action.

Romans 11:33 KJV
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Nobody can limit God "per se". I say per se because if we step outside the ambit of his word he would do nothing for us. For example, Peter would have drowned while Jesus was looking at and present with him because he acted in doubt.

Peter would never have drowned in that particular situation. Human understanding of God will say Peter should drown "after all he doubted" but God who does things the way he likes overlooked Peter's doubts and saved him.

People get things done for them by God everyday without even knowing his word talk less of stepping outside it. God's sovereignty and infinite wisdom at work.

So I didn't say a dumb man can't get a touch from God except his tongue his loosed. God can do as he pleases but he usually acts in line with his word for he is his word. He told Moses to speak to the rock yet Moses struck it but the water still came out. Then he told Moses he wouldn't get to the promised land for going against his word. That's why we are to follow his word to the letter (and Spirit!). John the Baptist's dad Zechariah was struck dumb by an angel so that he wouldn't use his mouth to distort the miracle of his son's birth. Our speaking is important. I can't stress it enough.

@1st bolded. God and his sovereignty again. You're right He "usually" acts in line with his word but what if he decides to do "unusually"? Who will object? Its also noteworthy that having mercy on whom he will irrespective of the circumstance is also part of his word.

@2nd bolded. If we are to go by the letter of the word, non of us will measure up to. Let's stick to the spirit of it. Its easier that way and is in sync with the grace dispensation.

@the 3rd bolded. Your reason is wrong. The bible gave us the true reason

Luke 1:20 KJV
And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

He became dumb because he didn't believe (clearly a punishment) but even his unbelief could never alter the plan of God.

Hannah spoke but Eli didn't hear what she said. Everyone in scripture who believed spoke the word. Christianity according to church history used to be called "the great confession". Cornelius is one who was right with God but was unsaved.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him

The preceding verses said God already sent an angel to tell Cornelius to send for Peter because God told him he had heard his prayers and seen his good works. This corresponds with verse 35 above. But in Acts 11 Peter says exactly what the Angel told Cornelius:

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Peter had to tell him words by which he was to be saved. Which he wasn't saved but he was already right with God.

Did God give the holy ghost to an unsaved Cornelius? Did the holy ghost fall on an unsaved man?

Her lips moved but her voice was not heard therefore Eli thought she was drunk. Have you seen a drunk person act? They may be mumbling inaudible words. You would know they are saying something but you may not understand it because of how inaudible it was. That's what happened here. Of course, God hears everyone's heart but she spoke out to his hearing alone. She didn't want Eli to know she was asking for a child or making a vow. He was trying to read her lips. Look at verses 11 and 12 of the same chapter:

11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O Lord of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the Lord all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.

12 And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the Lord, that Eli marked her mouth.

Do you think God wouldn't have answered her if her lips didn't move? Despite the fact that he already heard the prayers and petition of her heart?

100%



I agree in this context.

OK.

trustman and BabaGnoni,

we must work on concluding this project.

While updating the links to the topics on page 0, I noticed there were 8 pages btw F12 and F13. Who do we blame for this: Candour and mbaemeka or the Catholics. Lol.

Ok. Enough recess...

DrummaBoy: trustman and BabaGnoni,

we must work on concluding this project.

While updating the links to the topics on page 0, I noticed there were 8 pages btw F12 and F13. Who do we blame for this: Candour and mbaemeka or the Catholics. Lol.

Ok. Enough recess...

It's not recess, it's just that people found time to ask questions and challenge your opinions. A thing which you don't want, just like some of the folks you criticize and condemn. Did you open another nairaland account?

Image123:
Did you open another nairaland account?

*singing Omowumi*

If you ask me... na who I go ask...
the matter wey you see so... e tey when it start...
no be me go talk am... e heavy for mouth...
If you ask me... the matter for ground... na who I go ask...

trumpeting...

*pa pa pa...*

#repeat#

If you ask me ... na who I go ask...

DrummaBoy:

*singing Omowumi*

If you ask me... na who I go ask...
the matter wey you see so... e tey when it start...
no be me go talk am... e heavy for mouth...
If you ask me... the matter for ground... na who I go ask...

trumpeting...

*pa pa pa...*

#repeat#

If you ask me ... na who I go ask...

i don't understand what you just said or the context. It's a simple yes or no answer.

Image123:
i don't understand what you just said or the context. It's a simple yes or no answer.

Find out...

*singing Omowumi*

If you ask me... na who I go ask...
the matter wey you see so... e tey when it start...
no be me go talk am... e heavy for mouth...
If you ask me... the matter for ground... na who I go ask...

trumpeting...

*pa pa pa...*

#repeat#

If you ask me ... na who I go ask...

DrummaBoy:

Find out...

*singing Omowumi*

If you ask me... na who I go ask...
the matter wey you see so... e tey when it start...
no be me go talk am... e heavy for mouth...
If you ask me... the matter for ground... na who I go ask...

trumpeting...

*pa pa pa...*
#repeat#

If you ask me ... na who I go ask...

Are you aware Seun says it's against forum rules to operate multiple accounts? Dis grace is not a license to be lawless oh. As a christian, learn to come out clean if you are, instead of forming shady. i have a thousand better things to find out BTW than some pa pa pa.

What's your thoughts on this?

"I just want to encourage every one of us to realize when we obey God, we're not doing it for God—I mean, that's one way to look at it—we're doing it for ourselves, because God takes pleasure when we're happy. That's the thing that gives Him the greatest joy. So, I want you to know this morning: Just do good for your own self. Do good because God wants you to be happy. When you come to church, when you worship Him, you're not doing it for God really. You're doing it for yourself, because that's what makes God happy Amen?" (The congregation applauds) - Victoria Osteen.

^^^
That's the stupidest thing I ever heard - Bill Cosby.

www.crosswalk.com/blogs/christian-trends/victoria-osteen-takes-worship-of-god-to-new-low-it-s-all-about-you.html?fb_action_ids=10152623264883632&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B711823402225978%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.comments%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

DrummaBoy: What's your thoughts on this?

"I just want to encourage every one of us to realize when we obey God, we're not doing it for God—I mean, that's one way to look at it—we're doing it for ourselves, because God takes pleasure when we're happy. That's the thing that gives Him the greatest joy. So, I want you to know this morning: Just do good for your own self. Do good because God wants you to be happy. When you come to church, when you worship Him, you're not doing it for God really. You're doing it for yourself, because that's what makes God happy Amen?" (The congregation applauds) - Victoria Osteen.

^^^
That's the stupidest thing I ever heard - Bill Cosby.

www.crosswalk.com/blogs/christian-trends/victoria-osteen-takes-worship-of-god-to-new-low-it-s-all-about-you.html?fb_action_ids=10152623264883632&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B711823402225978%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.comments%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

When the focus shifts from 'What does the Bible say?' to 'What will motivate my followership?' we can expect that anything goes.

Image123:

Are you aware Seun says it's against forum rules to operate multiple accounts? Dis grace is not a license to be lawless oh. As a christian, learn to come out clean if you are, instead of forming shady. i have a thousand better things to find out BTW than some pa pa pa.

Come out clean? Tis like u don't know DB.. he'd rather deactivate his account than admit guilt! Tis really appalling to see 'true gospel preachers' act in really dishonest ways, yet they would be the first ones to nail someone else on the cross of their hypocrisy.

This is my first post on this thread, and I really wish DB and his new moniker would be a bit conscientious and bury their heads in shame.

Gombs:

Come out clean? Tis like u don't know DB.. he'd rather deactivate his account than admit guilt! Tis really appalling to see 'true gospel preachers' act in really dishonest ways, yet they would be the first ones to nail someone else on the cross of their hypocrisy.

This is my first post on this thread, and I really wish DB and his new moniker would be a bit conscientious and bury their heads in shame.

Come to think of it, winsomex or whatever has being conspicuously silent on the allegation, yet he and his likes would be fuming inwardly and foaming outwards when MOGs are seemingly silent on accusations. Double standards.

DrummaBoy: What's your thoughts on this?

"I just want to encourage every one of us to realize when we obey God, we're not doing it for God—I mean, that's one way to look at it—we're doing it for ourselves, because God takes pleasure when we're happy. That's the thing that gives Him the greatest joy. So, I want you to know this morning: Just do good for your own self. Do good because God wants you to be happy. When you come to church, when you worship Him, you're not doing it for God really. You're doing it for yourself, because that's what makes God happy Amen?" (The congregation applauds) - Victoria Osteen.

^^^
That's the stupidest thing I ever heard - Bill Cosby.

www.crosswalk.com/blogs/christian-trends/victoria-osteen-takes-worship-of-god-to-new-low-it-s-all-about-you.html?fb_action_ids=10152623264883632&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B711823402225978%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.comments%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

The verses below suggest similar i think.
Proverbs 9:12 If thou be wise, thou shalt be wise for thyself: but if thou scornest, thou alone shalt bear it.

Ecclesiastes 6:7 All the labour of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.

Proverbs 16:26 He that laboureth laboureth for himself; for his mouth craveth it of him.

Job 22:3, 21 and some few other passages also come to mind. The point is don't be crass or cocksure in judging others, even sinners. We're all made in God's image.

Image123:

Come to think of it, winsomex or whatever has being conspicuously silent on the allegation, yet he and his likes would be fuming inwardly and foaming outwards when MOGs are seemingly silent on accusations. Double standards.

DB is not that dim to out rightly deny the new moniker (u know he knows someone here can trace his ip address which looks like an Etisalat line) ...he's used same moniker on some of his threads, same pattern, same bitterness, same every thing, then the following of his fellow ilk...these were where I knew he's surely half witted

DrummaBoy: What's your thoughts on this?

"I just want to encourage every one of us to realize when we obey God, we're not doing it for God—I mean, that's one way to look at it—we're doing it for ourselves, because God takes pleasure when we're happy. That's the thing that gives Him the greatest joy. So, I want you to know this morning: Just do good for your own self. Do good because God wants you to be happy. When you come to church, when you worship Him, you're not doing it for God really. You're doing it for yourself, because that's what makes God happy Amen?" (The congregation applauds) - Victoria Osteen.

^^^
That's the stupidest thing I ever heard - Bill Cosby.

www.crosswalk.com/blogs/christian-trends/victoria-osteen-takes-worship-of-god-to-new-low-it-s-all-about-you.html?fb_action_ids=10152623264883632&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B711823402225978%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.comments%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

If tomorrow you decide to stop praying to God or worshipping him, does that stop him from being God?? If No, then you'll see that it is you who it benefits & not God

He is God with or without you, so whatever you do, its for your own good. I guess that's what the thrust of the quote is all about

if you exercise yourself in Godliness who benefits, you or God

If you flee from fornication, who benefits, you or God

if you reject salvation, who looses? You or God??

PS: the reason a Christian should go to church or worship God isn't because of what he stands to gain or benefit but because that's the reason he was created, to worship & give glory to his maker. The beautiful thing is at the end of the day, it is him who gets blessed!!!

^^^^

It is responses like the above that keep the Osteen's in business.

Observe a more adequate response from that same link and think a little deeper on the matter:

How would you respond to a God like Osteen
describes if you were a Christian dying of cancer,
or you just went through a miscarriage, or your
16-month-old child just drowned? You’d want to
spit in face of such a God. Only when we have
met the biblical God, can we truly grieve and bear
the unhappy aspects of life in a fallen world as He
walks through those dark times with us (e.g. 2
Cor. 1:1-11 ).

Bible professor and author, Daniel Wallace ,
responded to Victoria Osteen's statement with
deep concern that her view is the symptom of a
much larger problem:

"Some of the most blatant narcissistic blather
ever to come from a pulpit can also be laid at
their [the Osteens'] feet. Not only narcissistic, but
also blasphemous. One has to wonder how a
megachurch in the buckle of the Bible belt can go
on and on without the congregants waking up and
smelling what’s being shoveled in their direction.
If Lakewood Church is any indication of the
biblical literacy, genuine devotion to Christ, and
fellowship of the saints of the American
evangelical church, we are in serious trouble."

"The evangelical church in America needs
corporate self-reflection and corporate
repentance. How we treat one another, how we
honor God, what our understanding of and
commitment to the gospel is, and how we
measure true success all need a serious overhaul.
The root problem seems to be twofold: the
marginalization of the word of God and the
‘buddyization’ of Jesus Christ."

DrummaBoy: ^^^^

It is responses like the above that keep the Osteen's in business.

Observe a more adequate response from that same link and think a little deeper on the matter:

How would you respond to a God like Osteen
describes if you were a Christian dying of cancer,
or you just went through a miscarriage, or your
16-month-old child just drowned? You’d want to
spit in face of such a God. Only when we have
met the biblical God, can we truly grieve and bear
the unhappy aspects of life in a fallen world as He
walks through those dark times with us (e.g. 2
Cor. 1:1-11 ).

Bible professor and author, Daniel Wallace ,
responded to Victoria Osteen's statement with
deep concern that her view is the symptom of a
much larger problem:

"Some of the most blatant narcissistic blather
ever to come from a pulpit can also be laid at
their [the Osteens'] feet. Not only narcissistic, but
also blasphemous. One has to wonder how a
megachurch in the buckle of the Bible belt can go
on and on without the congregants waking up and
smelling what’s being shoveled in their direction.
If Lakewood Church is any indication of the
biblical literacy, genuine devotion to Christ, and
fellowship of the saints of the American
evangelical church, we are in serious trouble."

"The evangelical church in America needs
corporate self-reflection and corporate
repentance. How we treat one another, how we
honor God, what our understanding of and
commitment to the gospel is, and how we
measure true success all need a serious overhaul.
The root problem seems to be twofold: the
marginalization of the word of God and the
‘buddyization’ of Jesus Christ."

Pls kindly answer the questions I asked?

Wow, the "Viral Video Clip Controversy" is already made into her Wikipedia

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F14: PERSONALIZING THE GOSPEL[/size]


“All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.”
- Acts 4: 32 – 45


“You must be shepherds to the church of God, the people he bought with his own blood.”
- Acts 20:28


When Christianity was first brought to Nigeria by foreign missionaries they never sought to make names for themselves. They were selfless. All they wanted to do was lift up Jesus and him alone. If they wanted many of the hospitals and schools and other institutions and set ups they founded would have been in their names. In fact, many of these institutions named after some of those men and women were done after they had either gone back to their home countries or died.

The present day ‘ministers’ of the WoF’ extraction thinks differently. The ministries are their own, built on their preferred ‘business model’. The ministries are incorporated not with the mind of having trustees that the Pastor will be accountable to but with the pastors actually seeking to ‘be in charge’ of such Board of Trustees. You therefore find the pastor and his wife [pastor & pastor (Mrs.)] being the major trustees with a few others who can have little or no authority added to the list to make it up. Their leadership style is also fashioned after those of corporate CEOs. Nigerian WoF Christianity may have its own peculiarity but most of what it displayed is borrowed largely from its American counterpart. The truth is that Churches aren’t businesses and aren’t supposed to be run as such.

Celebrity pastors:
Most WoF pastors see their churches as their "platform," using it to grow their influence and promoting their image.
These pastors bask in the glory of their rock star status and take delight in a lifestyle of fame, popularity, self-aggrandizement and self-importance. They have forsaken modesty, humility, integrity, God’s mission and common sense. Instead they prefer a lavished lifestyle of fame, fortune and worldliness.
This kind of pastor is building a name and an empire for himself instead of pursuing a mission of making Christ famous. Any pastor who misuses his influence in such a way as to promote self has shifted the focus from Christ to himself. Getting to the “next level” for them simply means more self-promotion and fame.
The temptation to be carried away into pride, self-aggrandizement and idolatry when appreciated for ministry is real. But like Jesus it should be resisted by all means. Paul warned the church of Corinth about turning men into tin-gods and even went on to say “So let no one boast in men…” 1 Cor. 3:21
If you are one of such pastors let the scriptures speak God’s clear words to you and do create a man-made empire in the name of God and force others to ‘fit’ into your mould.



Conclusion
Pastors and churches and ministries should work to make Christ the true Star of their ministries. Self-promotion needs to be done away with. Celebrity or rock star status should be discarded. Pastors must resist the seductive attraction of prominence. Work to see yourself decrease so that Christ may increase through you. Hero worship of men can easily turn into idolatry.

What we find in the whole of the New Testament is humble servant leadership that discourages pastors from becoming prideful and carnal. This ministry style that engages in self-promotion is inconsistent with God’s blueprint in the Bible.


I REST MY CASE ON F14, FOR NOW

BabaGnoni:
... personalising the gospel

The day church people can say this, they are right on their way to freedom.

nannymcphee:


If tomorrow you decide to stop praying to God or worshipping him, does that stop him from being God?? If No, then you'll see that it is you who it benefits & not God

He is God with or without you, so whatever you do, its for your own good. I guess that's what the thrust of the quote is all about

if you exercise yourself in Godliness who benefits, you or God

If you flee from fornication, who benefits, you or God

if you reject salvation, who looses? You or God??

PS: the reason a Christian should go to church or worship God isn't because of what he stands to gain or benefit but because that's the reason he was created, to worship & give glory to his maker. The beautiful thing is at the end of the day, it is him who gets blessed!!!

We must understand that we have been called by God for a reason. The reason is clear, it is to herald the message of Christ even when its inconvenient, or even when we are unhappy. We seize to own ourselves anymore, we have become as a sacrifice to God though we live. Whatever we do as christians isn't for us anymore but for the race, for God's glory and the service which he entrusted us with.


We forget we signed up to be slaves to God from the day we accepted Christ. It's unfortunate that we want to be slaves, but that type of slave that puts himself and his feelings before his master.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F14: PERSONALIZING THE GOSPEL[/size]

Then they said,
"Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens,
so that we may make a name for ourselves;
otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
- Genesis 11:4 NIV

Then they said,
"Come, let's build a great city for ourselves with a tower that reaches into the sky.
This will make us famous and keep us from being scattered all over the world."
- Genesis 11:4 NLT

Who personalises the Gospel and/or names God's work, business or ministry after themselves.?
Well, this is a common practice among WoF adherents/proponents
To them, it is like as if their names have some sort of "anointing", "power" etc hence the reason for the naming of God's work etcetera after themselves, though individual WoF names wont be mentioned, the spirit behind it will be.

The Tower of Babel/Nimrod spirit is the principality behind these personalities making name(s) for themselves, lapping up adulation, lapping up idolization, lapping up fame, and/or building empires (e.g. multi-million dollar church ministry/church building/television ministry etc)

The influence of the Tower of Babel/Nimrod spirit is so strong, that those personalising the Gospel become bold enough to name the labour of love and work of the Kingdom after themselves (e.g. Pastor XYZ Media Ministries, Pastor Joe Bloggs Ministries etc)
The labour of love, work of the Gospel, Bibles, institutions (e.g. universities etc) are named after them whilst alive and not even posthumously

They personalise the gospel enough, that it is unavoidably evident that the "ministries" are one-man shows and/or operations, which after the namesakes dies, will decrease and gradually fade out before coming to an end because they are personality and not God driven ministries

They personalise the gospel to perfection, they even have personnels or “armour-bearers” to carry their personals (e.g. umbrellas, mobile phones, Bibles, hymn books, man-purse etc)
They don’t travel any more different than the next person, but are bent on acquiring personal jet to move about.

They've personalised the gospel enough to cling on, dearly to positions, forming MOG, and claiming release or exception from stepping down or submitting to counseling during/after divorce or separation (i.e. they are above that)
Personalised the gospel enough that extramarital affairs, divorce and/or separation is OK, as the demands of the ministry takes heavy tolls on marriages.
Personalised the gospel enough for personal enrichment through living off tithes and offerings, seed money, first fruits offering etc and through misinterpreting and misquoting bible verses and twisting the bible for other ulterior and financial motives

You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act.
Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
- Matthew 7:16 NLT

By their fruit you will recognize them.
Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
- Matthew 7:16 NIV

"A tree is identified by its fruit.
If a tree is good, its fruit will be good.
If a tree is bad, its fruit will be bad.
- Matthew 12:33 NLT

They have become so self absorbed hence the dependence on and/or trust in their own names as opposed to trusting in Jesus' name
They personalised the gospel by adding letters after their titles or have initials following their names, so as to be above and have authority over common person

Personalised the gospel enough that they have become the focus of a substantial/significant cult following of die-hards
They have a following of people, draw attention to themselves instead of constantly pointing others to Jesus

They advertise retreats, revivals, conferences on buses, tabloids, TV channels, magazines etc personalised with their pictures prominently displayed on the adverts, flyers, billboards etc
Their visits to other gatherings are personal to them, as they expect to have either a seat on the altar or a front row cushioned seat.

They promote their books, always called a “your life will never be the same best seller” even though it's not
Also one of the main reasons for personalising the Gospel, is to separate and legally guarantee that the incomes/revenues generated from authorship (i.e. proceeds of books sales etc) are exclusively for them and not for the "church"

Resorting to self-image (i.e. elevating self instead of elevating God) and when names are put on things, points to the person
but in this business of the Father, the rule of thumb is to always point to Jesus Christ whom we are supposed to be serving and not us
Afterall when the dust settles, one name remains above every name (i.e. Jesus')
and only what is done for and/or named after Jesus will last

The Attitude of Christ
⁸Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
⁹For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
- Philippians 2:8-9

I REST MY CASE ON F14, FOR NOW

Wow!!!

Baba g himself, always good to read you.

shdemidemi: Wow!!!

Baba g himself, always good to read you.

I agree.

BabaGnoni:

They've personalised the gospel enough to cling on, dearly to positions, forming MOG, and claiming release or exception from stepping down or submitting to counseling during/after divorce or separation (i.e. they are above that)
Personalised the gospel enough that extramarital affairs, divorce and/[b]or separation is OK, as the demands of the ministry takes heavy tolls on marriages.

Case in point: #TheChrisOyakhilomeGate

Great work BabaGnoni.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F15: Fee paying crusades or seminars[/size]

But you have this in your favor-you hate what the Nicolaitans are doing.
I also hate what they're doing.
- Revelation 2:6 GOD'S WORD® Translation

Did Jesus had "ticket price(s)" in mind when He officially or publicly announced the Kingdom of Heaven or when He preached and taught the Gospel?
Did He charge people to hear Him, to watch Him, to meet with Him, to hear the Good News?

No, and Jesus would have used hate (i.e. the same strong word He used when reacting to the Nicolaitans' deeds or practices) to express a strong dislike for the practices that WoF influenced preachers unashamedly have embraced and adopted

The practices can range from charging people to pay a gate fee for tickets to enter church buildings, grounds or civic venues to hear the gospel preached, gospel taught and/or to worship God
to charging gate fees to attend conventions, revivals, crusades, meetings, singles seminars etc or pay-per-view charges to watch church conferences on the internet etc

It also includes imposing entrance fees on worshippers who want to attend New Year’s Eve service/crossover services

How fortunate we are that Jesus Christ never charged any of his followers and/or listeners money to hear Him speak
How fortunate we are that He never had "reserved seats” for bank CEOs, president(s) etc
How fortunate we are that He never had "reserved seats” for select few who were rich and could easily pay for good seats to hear Him teach or preach.
How fortunate we are that, the Holy Spirit doesn't charge any, for the spiritual gifts He gives us

In their greed they will use good-sounding arguments to exploit you.
The verdict against them from long ago is still in force,
and their destruction is not asleep
- 2 Peter 2:3 GOD'S WORD® Translation

People like these are not serving Christ our Lord.
They are serving their own desires.
By their smooth talk and flattering words they deceive unsuspecting people
- Romans 16:18 GOD'S WORD® Translation

Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons.
You received without paying; give without pay
- Matthew 10:8 ESV

Then he said, "Beware! Guard against every kind of greed.
Life is not measured by how much you own."
- Luke 12:15 NLT

Entrance-fee is required to visit Church of England's St Paul's Cathedral, albeit as a tourist-attraction and not for worshipping reasons
but when people get charged to worship God, charged to fellowship with brethren, charged to hear and receive the Gospel, then something is amiss and Paul says it is an abuse of the preachers' power.

What is my reward then?
Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge,
that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
- 1 Corinthians 9:18 KJV

I REST MY CASE ON F15, FOR NOW

I guess the question WoF preachers ask, though tight lipped and act is similar to what Peter asked Jesus-

New Living Translation
Matthew 19;27
Then Peter said to him, "We've given up everything to follow you. What will we get?"