mbaemeka: Candour,

Dr Kent's statement and Paul's are not the same. If a christian lives he lives for Christ. If a Christian dies he dies to be with Christ. We agree.

Dr Kent said "help me be faithful in my illness" and I said God wants us faithful but not in illness for he wants us well.

Which brings me to the names you keep throwing at me namely: Kathryn khulman, Oral Roberts etc. Oral Roberts was 91 when he went to be with the Lord and I cannot remember him suffering any ailment. In fact, I saw him pray for Paul Crouch some months before he was announced to have passed (I mean Oral)

Secondly, in those months leading to when he left he on at least 3 different occasions said he would soon go. (I watched it myself on TBN) no hearsay. Let me use this opportunity to even speak a little about his life. Contrary to the lies about Mansions that satan-influenced fellows said he had he was being accomodated by Benny Hinn who also paid him a salary on monthly basis.

Oral Roberts also lost a son to suicide but it didn't deter his dedication to the things of God and I he is dearly beloved by me. No regrets whatsoever.

So when I hear about various ailments that caused their deaths I just laugh because Satan has his media and the church of christ has hers. I don't take Satans seriously. I am that biased for the things of God.

If Kathryn khulman died due to any sickness she doesn't sink in my estimation. She was still a woman of God used by him in a mighty way. Elisha who enjoyed more miracles than his Mentor Elijah died due to sickness. (I know you may want to make reference to him). Well scripture says, at times he got angry and the anointing didn't flow until he was ministered to by a musician. It's possible he didn't cause it to flow at the point of his death. Much later a man was going to be buried and due to fear his Paulbearers tossed his body into Elishas grave. The dead man's body revived on contact with Elishas dry bones. That's how anointed Elisha was. Same goes for Kathryn and Mrs Kumuyi.

They are with the Lord and I am here to live by my own faith and you too should.

mbaemeka:

The same Jesus that said when you PRAY say this amd that is the same Jesus that said SPEAK to the MOUNTAIN and not SPEAK to GOD about the mountain.

What we see here is you lumping everything into PRAYER and wondering why you don't receive answers to all your prayers. When God didn't tell you to ONLY pray.

John 14:14 says if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Who is the 'I' that will do it? It can't be Jesus himself because because he already said "the Father who dwells in him does the works" vv10. And we know the father is always on his throne because Jesus said I go to my father vv12.

So we can deduce who Jesus is referring to as the Father in Him and that is the Holy Spirit because he responds to Jesus' name vv26. Which means Jesus wasn't teaching about prayer here because in Prayer we pray to the Father in Jesus' name John 16:23.

To leave us without any doubt that he was referring to prayer in Chapter 16 he explained himself better in vv26 saying that we don't even ask him to ask the father on our behalf.

NOW with this knowledge you can understand why Peter and John didn't pray to heal the man at the beautiful gate. They did what Jesus taught them in John 14. Much later when persecution broke out they then prayed to God to cause miraculous signs to happen through them Acts 4: 29-30.

It is on record here and (repeatedly too) that I never refuted the aspect of suffering for the gospel. I am against teachings of sicknesses and poverty (that is unrelated to the gospel) as what that suffering refers to and I am not going to refrain from it as it is very scriptural.

Jesus promised them so and some scripture suggests that he may have absolved John from it (John 21:19-23). Bible History let's us know that John was placed in boiling cauldron for hours but he was unhurt and as a result was given the appellation- Saint John "the Divine" and was banished to the Island of Patmos from where he wrote the book of Revelations.

It might interest you to know that God and not Joshua said that. Also your interpretation of the "book of the law" to refer to the law(s) of Moses is also grossly flawed. The law ALWAYS referred to ALL the books of Moses and wasn't limited to it. As more books from the prophets were given they too were added into the Law. In fact, when the apostles began teaching the gospel of Jesus they did so using the Law which was actually the Pentateuch, Prophets and the Psalms or writings.

Again (and by so doing Trustman can get my responses to his post) there is no separation or demarcation between the Mouth and Meditate as was used in Joshua 1:8. The Hebrew for the word meditate is Hagah and it means: silent whispering; muttering; talking; roaring. It refers to using the mouth to whisper, mutter, talk and roar the words. This is what we refer to as speaking the word. The same admonition was referred to in Jeremiah with the same word "Hagah" and in Psalms 1:1-3. If you even checked the marginal of a regular KJV they would place an alphabet aside the word meditate and refer to it as a form of talking while cross-referencing you to the book of Joshua 1:8

The prosperity the Psalmist referred to is Prosperity, Period.

There are principles that God has established on earth- laws, if you please. If anyone (Saint or sinner) is found observing them they will receive the results of such actions. One of them is giving. If a sinner has a habit of giving he will always have and if a christian is selfish he will always lack. That's what Jesus meant.

Mr A doesn't have money to pay his rent yet he is a tongue-talking Christian. Of course, he will not give anything to the work of the ministry because he is poor and has nothing to give. Mr B has money to pay his rent in Ikoyi but decides to live in Obalende so he can have something tangible to give towards God's work. Mr B should be commended and Mr A should meditate on the word and prosper so he can be like Mr B. That's the 'contradiction' I was trying to make and that's what I meant by "I too suffer lack from time to time because of a need or the other in God's house". That's what the early Christians did.

How could it possibly be? Sicknesses, poverty and death came as a result of the entrance of sin. If Sin as a nature is taken away then the consequences should have been too. Now if people who have their sins taken away still find themselves sinning "occasionally" does it mean the sin wasn't taken away to begin with? Whose duty is it to stay away from sin? Do you think it is possible to stay away from the acts of sin without the concomitant consequences?

Don't call Jesus a liar, call those who sold you the lie that Jesus was homeless liars. Jesus had a house and he lived in Capernum.

- You can help by teaching them that God doesn't want them poor and has made provision through his word for them to prosper.
- You can help them by giving them aides like start-up money, education, provisions, a job etc

The healing school is not for ONLY christians. It is a means to convince Naysayers, scoffers, atheists that God's power is real and active till date. What words may not be able to do, the tangible power and demonstration of it many times does. And no, Christians should not fall sick like ANY other person for they are members of Christ's body; his flesh and his bones!! That is why I (for example, cannot be sick). Jesus took upon himself all my sicknesses and diseases and died with it on the cross. Then he woke up to a newness of life (that is not subject to sicknesses or diseases) and told me I too could walk in the same newness of life by his spirit.

As per 1 Corinthians 11:30 please study these verses you post very well before referring me to them. Do you think I don't know all these verses before posting? Ok let us examine what Paul said there:

When you create threads on men and women of God and call them names you are not discerning the lord's body. You are eating of the communion unworthily and not that you are unworthy. So I am using this medium to warn you again- refrain from this evil!

As per "God considers the heart more important than the words spoken" there could be no greater lie than that. Surely, what is to be spoken must first be believed in the heart first but (you will not experience the reality of it) until you speak it forth. Paul said with the heart man believes unto righteousness but you see he would never experience the SALVATION until he uses his mouth (Romans 10:9-10). That's what Paul taught us and Jesus had made references to it earlier when he said- If you believe in your heart (without doubting) and say with your mouth to the mountain- Move! it will.

mbaemeka:

Yes, God didn't commission me to suffer A.K.A be in poverty, be sick etc for the Gospel. God want's me to Prosper A.K.A be in health, peace, rich etc for the gospel. That's what I have always said, maybe my latter post just elucidated my position better to you.

John 16 King James Version (KJV)
1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you

Jesus had earlier on told them all that they would be killed. Then after his resurrection while talking to Peter he gives Peter a more vivid description of the way he would actually be killed. When Peter asked about John's (because Peter knew that Jesus had a special bond with John), Jesus said what is that to you if I say he will remain till I come? John, in his typical thoughtful and humble style said - "Jesus didn't say I would not die, he only said what if I say John will be here till I return?".

I have made my deductions from the afore and my logic is in order.

As per that teaching about an "era" that's just plain rubbish. If you don't see people teleport, come back from the dead etc It's because people are not taught that these manifestations by the Spirit still happen. We have even seen some say that it ended with the apostles entirely while some say medical science has replaced it. The same Holy Spirit that was in Philip is in me, he can make me teleport if the need arises.

I never said what Israel meditated on had to do with Psalms 1:1-3. I said the Psalmist taught the same thing that Joshua was taught by God years ago. Joshua had the books of Moses to meditate on, and as more books were added to the Torah the Jews had more books to meditate on.

Christ has redeemed us from receiving the blessings by conformance to the "laws". Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law. We can therefore take the blessings and run with it. That's what Paul taught Timothy and others.

2 Corinthians 1:18-20New International Version (NIV)

18 But as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not “Yes” and “No.” 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me and Silas[a] and Timothy—was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.” 20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.

Paul taught Timothy that God's promises (ALL OF THEM) are not some "yes" and some "no". It has ALWAYS been Yes. No matter how many promises God says yes to them in "Christ". That's why we SPEAK AMEN (I claim it) to the glory of God.

That's why I say- I will never be broke in my life; I Dwell in health; I cannot be sick; I prosper in all I do etc. I am claiming the blessings and promises. I am saying AMEN to them.

Sure you are right about Paul. He gave all he had to the preaching of the gospel. LOL @ John. Not with what you have seen above ^^ concerning the promises besides, this is John the Divine; full of the Holy Spirit. If he wished it for anyone, it must have been word-based.

If a Christian puts his fingers into fire it will burn him. If a Christian jumps up he will come down. If a sinner gives he will receive back. What happened to your definition of prosperity being not just about finances? How will the sinner gain access to the blessings of divine health? How will he gain access to the blessings of grace-unmerited favour?

That's why we said there are some principles a sinner can stumble unto by chance and they will benefit him. There are some he can only find by studying and meditating on the scriptures.

Being poor for the gospel is what Barnabas did. He gave all he had into the gospel and lived like he had nothing. The Macedonians above abounded in the grace of generosity for the gospel despite the fact that they had little and experienced trials. They gave their widows mite. That's what it means to be poor for the gospels sake.

First off, death is referred to as the enemy. Secondly, it might interest you again to know that not all christians will die (so just keep that in perspective when you speak about death). Thirdly, Jesus has the keys of Hell and Death now so (for us christians) he reserves the right to call us home and he doesn't do it without our consent (he is that kind).

As per labour in child birth, I can flood this thread with testimonies of Christian women that didn't experience such. It all boils down to how much of the word of God (and his promises) we have believed in and said "amen" to. That's why the accurate teaching of the word of God is required.

A christian can speak the word concerning his health and be in health but be stingy with his money and not prosper. The word of God doesn't work for you simply because you're christian. You have to personalize it- the just shall live by HIS OWN faith.

The Christians that were sending relief to Judea why didn't the famine affect them too? The famine was for the whole world. Challenges come to everyone, but how you respond to them matters. After all, the same "Credit crunch" that affected Bill Gates negatively made Warren Buffet the man with the most money in the world.

We can start small but we should not remain there- regardless of life's challenges. Jesus said we are in the world but not of the "masses". What affects the "masses" should not affect us. I remember when I was in the university and rumours will be flying around that only one student got an A in a particular course. I would always say "I know I am the one" even when I had other very intelligent Christians in my class. I virtually always ended up being the one. One day, someone said I was boasting and I showed him this:


Romans 3:27King James Version (KJV)
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

He started talking the same way too.

Someone who is talking faith cannot be boasting- in a nutshell.

trustman:
I pointed you to the fact that Jesus referred to the poor – Matt. 26:11
Paul in Romans referred to POOR SAINTS – Rom. 15:26
Galatians referred to the poor – Gal. 2:10
James also referred to the poor – James 2: 2-5
It would be unscriptural and demonic then to claim that there are or there should be NO POOR among Christians. That would contradict these portions of Scripture.
I asked you to state where in the Bible it says that poverty, disease and sickness are not from God. I await your answer.
I also await your response to the Deuteronomy 28: 21, 27, 28 , 1 Cor. 11:30, and other passages I listed. Do these show that believers can be sick? Whatever the cause?
I also asked - Which is pride - trusting in God to fulfill his word or trusting in one's self to 'use' God's word to accomplish something? I ask again, which of these is pride?
When you attempt to see “suffering” as different from sickness and poverty it is unfortunate. Maybe again it is your (WoF) way of trying to read your meaning into words. But these two, for your information, are aspects of suffering. A sick person is suffering from some form of ailment or disease or whatever. Secondly how do you qualify or figure out when these are, to use your words, “unrelated to the gospel”?
So ONLY the disciples of Jesus were to suffer? The modern day Christian is immune from it. Any direct scriptural reference?
As at the time Joshua was in the picture here, the prophets had not yet written their books. What Candour was referring to was that “the book of the law” mentioned in Joshua 1;8 consisted only those written by Moses.
If meditate means 'roaring' or 'roar the words' how can you use that to explain the passage? You have again decided to pick and choose what you want? Context!!!!
Merely stating that “the prosperity ... is prosperity' is no answer. What is the meaning of prosperity? Is it to be able to successfully do a thing or is it to have material abundance? What is the exact meaning in the context in which it was used?
It is interesting how you interpret the scriptures. So when Jesus said God sends rain on the just and on the unjust that is taken by you to mean it is ONLY when such a person follows a ‘principle’ that God has established that he gets the ‘rain’. How did you come about this?
So you are more ‘advanced’ in spiritual things than the early Christians and can then differentiate yourself from them? Maybe you even know more than they did about the Christian way of life and that is why you are more ‘prosperous’ than them?
Death came as a consequence of SIN. Is death taken away now – i.e. today, or are we still expecting a future victory over death?
What Candour pointed to was the reference which you made. The fact that Jesus dwelt in a house does not equate to OWNING the house or houses he stayed in. So what is your point – that Jesus was so rich materially that he had a lot of real estate or what?
God’s word says none of these. Quote them clearly if you can.
So again where did Jesus ask us to set up healing schools?
The issue I pointed out here is that Christians were sick and God can afflict with sickness as a means of discipline. Maybe you will need to qualify your statement to mean something like ‘Good, perfect, sinless Christians don’t get sick …bla, bla, bla’
It is the height of absurdity to equate creation of a thread to the issue of discerning the body. This again is how you guys in WoF TWIST the scriptures to suit what you want it to mean for you. That portion of scripture clearly showed what it addressed – the Lord’s Supper.
See 2 Chronicles 16: 9 - "For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to give strong support to those whose heart is blameless toward him". What does the "eyes" of the Lord see here? Those who speak the word? Those who meditate by 'roaring'?
Proverbs 21:2 - "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart". What does the Lord 'weigh' here? The external and obvious or the inside?
Proverbs 23:6, 7 - "Do not eat the bread of a man who is stingy; do not desire his delicacies, for he is like one who is inwardly calculating. “Eat and drink!” he says to you, but his heart is not with you". Can the outward show be different from what is on the inside?
Isaiah 29:13 - "And the Lord said:
“Because this people draw near with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
while their hearts are far from me,
and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men,
cf Matthew 15:8 & Mark 10:6
God is clearly saying in all these that man can verbalize as much as he wants whereas the heart (the inside of him) is FAR from him.
So which is the great lie? What i stated or what you alleged? Even after you said "Surely, what is to be spoken must first be believed in the heart first ..."? If what is to be spoken MUST FIRST be believed then does that not mean that the inside is more important?

mbaemeka:

I mean you no offence man but this is a long pile of nonsense. You are taking me back to things I have already explained in detail. Please refer to my posts to Candour for reference and take all the corrections where necessary.

There's nothing you have said here that I have not responded to even the one's that I flat out off point. I don't think you people know the word as much as you think you do or probably you don't understand it as much. So I find it laughable that you have now taken the position as detectives in the house of God.

If I see anything worth responding to I will. Cheers.

Candour:

See Paul's statement on his infirmity that 'God didn't cure'

2 Corinthians 12:9 KJV
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

It was causing Paul pains but he refused to focus on it, rather he decided to be more faithful while even glorying in his infirmities. That was the same attitude Dr Kent showed.




Does God want us to have infirmities like the one Paul had?




Oral Roberts had 2 major heart attacks that landed him in hospital. One was even a day after being prayed for on TBN (I think). It was so serious he lived with a pacemaker inserted to aid his heart. This is an open secret.

That he said he'll go 3 times in the months leading to his death at 91 tells us nothing. At that age, if he didn't say he'll go, what should we expect? That he'll keep coming for ever? All humans will go and if a 91 year old man isn't preparing and expecting to go, I wonder who should.

Also, on his financial life, do you know he raised $9m for an $8m hospital which he claimed if he doesn't build, God would call him home? Well it was a failed project eventually. Maybe he became bankrupt later that necessitated Benny Hinn's help, I can't say.




Very good attitude for a christian at the bolded. Bad things happen to even Christians but it shouldn't affect our faithfulness to God, shouldn't call for regrets and shouldn't make us that didn't get affected sneer at those who got affected as 'lacking faith' or 'walking in ignorance and darkness'.

"Those whose palm kernels are cracked for them by a benevolent spirit shouldn't forget to be humble" says an Igbo proverb. We can draw lessons from that.





If one of those you term "faithless" and "walking in ignorance" had experienced this, would you have been as understanding? Its only a vain and cruel man that would mock a human being for succumbing to sickness and that is what you and WOF have been doing to others since. You enjoy mocking those whom life has dealt harshly with.

Its the penchant of WOF for lying and living in denial that is the issue here and that is what is being mocked: the lies. If Elisha with all the miracles God did through him could fall sick so much that he died, then who are the modern wanabees feeling like gods? Do you think Elisha never saw psalm 82 throughout his life? Khulman died in 1976 from complications resulting from open heart surgery and it showed how frail and human she and the rest of us are.

Biofun Kunuyi died of cancer in 2010 but she isn't in the sane category with khulman because never for once did she or her husband preach godhood of believers or that a Christian cannot be sick.

Bad things happen to people including Christians and Kathryn khulman et al were no exceptions.

mbaemeka:

Yes you are right that Eliphaz and not Job made the statements in Job 5. And NO, a thousand times NO! Not everything Eliphaz said was wrong. Same way not all Job said was correct e.g cursing the day he was born etc. God corrected not just Eliphaz and the rest he also corrected Job. What Eliphaz said in (Job 5:19,22) for example, were correct. We know the things that he said that were wrong because God said so. Eliphaz believed that God was punishing Job for not doing enough good, and Bildad thought Job was just whining because he wanted His wealth back. On the other hand, by justifying himself, Job was condemning God as being unjust. Elihu on the other hand was correct. In chapter 34 he confirmed the Lord’s inability to do wrong or pervert justice.

Then in chapter 38 when God Himself joined the conversation, we see that Job is neither given a bill of indictment nor a verdict of innocence, but his understanding of God was certainly brought into question. We can see all that.

The question I asked again is how did Job show his "implicit faith" in God? How didn't he waver? Is it similar to Abraham in Romans 4:18-23? Scripture too said Abraham didn't waiver and if Job did same he must have been confessing God's words rightly and giving thanks like Abraham did.

mbaemeka:

Like I said before alot of words and scriptures are being tossed around with little understanding. There are some basic things I would have thought you people that know more the Pastors that you libel would have known and if I start again you will meet me at some point and claim that's what you were referring to or agree with.

To help you save face again I would ask you to go and Learn the 3 different words that some translators referred to as infirmities, afflictions and sicknesses. They do not all mean the diseases. For example in the account of Paul you referred to in Corinthians, he was not referring to any ailment or a disease but you would not know because you have not studied it and when I show it to you, you will turn around and act like you always did.

As per all the mixtures of lies and misrepresentations about Oral Roberts, I leave you to believe what you want o jare. You will not travel to America to see the doctors report but if another person talks about going to Tanzania you would not ask him for doctors report instead you would call him a liar.

I am getting tired of the same old rehashed nonsense that pride would not let you admit to. Imagine seeing the 2 Corinthians 1:18-20 account by Paul concerning God's blessings and promises in Christ and then in turn asking if Paul didn't know about it when didn't "prosper" to you Or asking me about Timothy getting sick?

I believe I have put enough truth here that will help anyone that is still in doubt and would leave the ignorant and egomaniacal naysayers in the dark. You needed to see me laughing here watching all of you fumble scriptures and try to spin it like you were in the know all along.

I can count the amount of people that actually know scriptures in the letter and spirit on one hand (on NL) and none of them is in your camp. The quantity of ignorance here is frightening.

This is my last post on this thread. Let me do like bro Image123 and let you have the last word.

Cheers.

mbaemeka:

I love how we started from "Jesus had no roof over his head" to "Foxes have holes. . " to "My younger brother also 'houses' his friends in my house. It doesn't make him a house owner. He rents a house at his university. That still doesn't make him a house owner.

If you agree Jesus didn't own 'a big fancy mansion' like some pastors claim, then we have no reason to argue on this issue. Even the mad man he cured had a 'place' he abode.

If this is the line you're taking, then there probably was no homeless person in Israel as at this time and we shouldn't be having this argument. If every 25 year old had a place of his to stay, then what's so special about Jesus having a place to house 2 others who also had their own place?"

And I am charged with this:

Ha ha ha ha ha! There's nothing more to say.

DrummaBoy:

I suspected this sort of statement will come up that's why I provided you a "Fashola train" to ride with. Here:

Image123: Gnoni, i've seen your posts to me (goes for drumb and Nora too) as regards Dr Lake.

i'm sorry i could only skim through them saving me the temptation to waste time and resources rebutting them.

Don't worry drumb, i'll still read the Nora pdf, already downloaded it sef, i guess that is what Nora pasted abi?

It's not my style to discuss people in absentia, though when i really wanted you guys to relate your WOF talks to contemporary men around us, you all strangely shied away, preferring to discuss relics and largely unknown people to the audience.

On Lake, i told someone already, i've heard him myself and believe him above what the critics have to say.
One thing you'll need to learn is that even the best men have 'formidable' critics and further links against them. From Jesus to Spurgeon to Kumuyi to Wigglesworth. Take this link for instance against Paul, i would not even advice you to read it, the whole world lies in wickedness. https://www.nairaland.com/1874144/real-apostle-paul

Candour:

Quit the lies. Its not in your character to help anybody save face. You simply are overwhelmed by the truth.

Does this make you know Paul was sick?

Galatians 4:13-14 KJV
Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. [14] And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Keep trying to lie for Paul like he commissioned you to

Romans 8:26King James Version (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities sicknesses : for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

mbaemeka:

I wanted to ignore this, but the prospect of showing you how little you know was too tempting.

The word for "Infirmities of the flesh" as used here in Galatians 4, 2 Corinthians 11:30 and 2 Corinthians 12:10 is Astheneia. It means a weakness; want of strength; weakness of human nature. It was NEVER (I stress the NEVER) translated or referred to as a sickness or a disease in scripture. It was the same word used in Romans 8: 26. Tell us how you can fix sickness into that verse now let us see you try.


Romans 8:26King James Version (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities sicknesses : for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.


We can tell so easily by reading the verses in Corinthians to know what Paul referred to as the things that caused the Infirmities of his body: reproaches, persecutions, distresses, trials etc. Paul is saying he was hungry, beaten, flogged, imprisoned and as such he was WEAK. In fact, vv12 of 2 Corinthians 12 talks about him still performing signs, wonders, mighty deeds etc while still WEAK. Abi don't you think he would have healed himself if he was sick?

And I know you will come back with "thorn in the flesh" by the messenger of satan. It is a figure of speech like "pain in the neck". Paul was saying Satan was responsible for all the persecutions, weaknesses, beatings etc. he faced and God told him that his strength will be made perfect by the persecutions. So Paul began to boast about it!

To help you since you would not study and will be employing underhand tactics to make me teach you, the word for sickness is Astheneo and was used 17 times in scripture to refer to it (few times to refer to physical break down due to overwork). This was the word used for Epaphroditus' case. Thank God Paul told us what caused in Philippians 3:30- for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death. Which simply means he overworked himself into getting sick and this was the same word used for Trophimus in 2 Timothy 4:20.

So Paul was not sick neither was he diseased. Trophimus and Epaphroditus were and we know why.

Please use another example to live in unbelief or save face and learn behind the scene so that you won't fall your hand on your thread.

I am really succumbing to your "truths". Trust me, I can do this to virtually everything you have said including telling us to suffer like Paul and the apostles but stay without the power for God didn't give us that one.

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Image123:

1. Did Jesus heal people who were anticipating healing?
2. Did Jesus heal more than one person through a method?
3. Is Jesus present where people are gathered in His name?

Simple yes or no would reduce the beating of the bush.

Image123: Image123 said that Jesus operated healing schools? woah,

DrummaBoy:
I suspected this sort of statement will come up that's why I provided you a "Fashola train" to ride with. Here:

DrummaBoy:
2. The question was whether Christ operated healing "schools" not whether healing can occur though believers or not.

Image123:
The answer was that Jesus and the apostles gathered people to heal them. That is what a healing school supposedly does.

DrummaBoy:
Another question please: Can we authoritatively say that Jesus ever "gathered people to heal them?" Can we find any biblical account for this? Are you saying Jesus gathered people exclusively for healing exercises like these WOF chaps do in their healing schools?
This is an all in one question.

Image123:
Yes

BabaGnoni:

BabaGnoni:

You're doing yourself a great disservice skimming through that FYI

This thread is not about personalities but more of "shine your eyes welu welu" if not its "last chance saloon" situation then.

It isn't really about the contemporary men around us but is more about how they came about their teachings, practices, doctrine (i.e. what or where is the origin)
The "WOF talks" already is showing where and how the contemporary men around us got influenced or indoctrinated by "relics and largely unknown people"

It is from the "relics and largely unknown people" that some contemporary men around us learned:
- to build universities and become chancellors of such universities
- to set up and practice healing rooms or schools
- to wear white suits albeit the international and our own local one don't anymore
- to pursue acquiring private jets
- to be vainglory and puffed up in biggest/largest building(s) in the world
- to merchandise, personalise etc the Gospel
- to acquire bodyguards and/or security personnel
- to etc etc

Image123:

Doing myself a great disservice how exactly? i'm saved and God loves me and takes care of me (to be simple and brief). Explain what exactly i gain by thinking different of Dr Lake? i don't get how you remain comfortable saying that the thread is not about personalities while ironically i've notseen another thread that so deeply digs up dirt on personalities with glee. For instance, it's yet to be shown how G Lake started healing school as supposed only for the article posted to suggest that John Dowie had one already. Not sweeping under the carpet the fact that the bible records events and principles similar to what is obtainable in a healing school.

DrummaBoy:

Therefore Jesus operated a healing school. abi?

I am not the one beating around the bush, you are. I provided the interaction between us both when it seem you were denying your statement where you admitted that Jesus operated a healing school.

Now that the statement is sounding heretical to you too, you want to deny it. There is no need to answer your question; I won't because it would only blur the issues being discussed. If you are MAN enough, stand by your words.

Image123, you are the one to be held most culpable of all who oppose our discussion here. It is apparent that you know what scriptures say but bc you wish to perpetuate a tradition that is benefitting a small clique, men of God, you choose to oppose clear argument that reveal the errors of these men.

Someone like mbaemeka can be excused but not you.

Or why else do you wish to deny the fact that you admitted that Jesus operated a healing school? Why are you beating around the bush? You need not answer. Its obvious to all.





Good advice.

nora544:

Don't say Dr. Lake he was never and I say never a doctor ha has no degree, he was never at an University he was a big liar and that PDF is from an University of south africa and and you will see that I have right!

Image123:

1. Did Jesus heal people who were anticipating healing?
2. Did Jesus heal more than one person through a method?
3. Is Jesus present where people are gathered in His name?

Simple yes or no would reduce the beating of the bush.

Image123:

One can be called Dr. without a degree. It's another thing to practice illegally or without license. If that is what offends you, i'll stop for you, don't worry, lol. People are nicknamed prof, chief, chairman, doc. Like some say Dr. Jesus. Lake did more for the sick around him than many medical doctors and academic doctors of his time.

trustman: [size=16pt]Astheneia[/size]

The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, 2010 by Thomas Nelson Publishers:

feebleness (of body or mind); by impl. malady; mor. frailty - infirmity, weakness, disease, sickness.
The word means lit., "lacking strength, weakness, infirmity" and is translated (1) "infirmities" in Mt 8:17; it most used rendering; (2) "disease" in Acts 28:9; (3) "sickness" in Jn 11:4 and (4) "weakness" in 1 Cor 2:3, 15:43; 2 Cor 12:9 ......

Candour:

@the bolded, i knew you are very vainglorious but You're also a liar. If you're not, tell us what was used in 1Tim 5:23 to describe Timothy's "infirmities"? Astheneia or Astheneo? Tell us and get shamed.

If you were honest, you'd have known and admited that both can be used interchangeably and were indeed used interchangeably in scripture.

E.g astheneia for infirmity in John 5:5, 1Tim 5:23, diseases in Acts 28:9 and sickness in John 11:4 and astheneo for weak in 1Cor 8:12 and 2Cor 11:21

Galatians 4:13 KJV
Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.

Paul said he preached to them through the infirmity that was in his flesh. See the next verse. What would make a man loathsome, likely to be rejected and despised? Physical weakness or a [s]sickness that could be revolting e.g a smelly sore or like the woman with the issue of blood[/s]?

Galatians 4:14 KJV
And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

The floggings, beatings, hunger and imprisonment that Paul received, couldnt have made him "so weak" to the [s]point of possibly being despised and rejected by the Galatians[/s] unless you're telling us he got an infection from his injuries and I don't need to tell you that an infection is a sickness. In fact a very serious disease

See when Paul was stoned, so badly that the people believed they had killed him

Acts 14:19-20 KJV
And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. [20] Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.

Yet the believers stood by him, not despising or rejecting his battered body.

If you're a honest person, you dont need Greek studies to understand these scriptures because any christian can be sick including you.

mbaemeka:
1 Timothy 5:23King James Version (KJV)
23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

The word infirmities as used here is astheneia. Like I said to trustman Infirmties encompasses sicknesses and diseases but diseases and sicknesses do not encompass infirmities. And astheneia was used by Paul only to describe a weakness and not a disease or sickness. When Paul talked about sicknesses he used astheneo. Therefore in this case Paul said use a little wine to strengthen your oftenly weak stomach. I know some translators translated the word to mean illnesses, but they would be wrong because Paul was so articulate he knew when to use words like astheneo, astheneia and even asthenes. If he knew to use astheneo for Trophimus then he knew to use astheneia for Timothy.

I am honest with myself and for those words to be used interchangeably then there should be some consistency in usage even as we consider the user. In John 5:5 the (man was weak in his legs- he could not walk; used to describe impotency; not used by Paul). 1 Corinthians 8:12 the word used was asthenes and it meant weak conscience. In 2 Corinthians 11:21, asthenekanem was used (only once all scripture) by the very articulate Paul to refer to a lack of confidence (mental weakness). Astheneia was used more than 15times to refer to anything but sickness and disease while Astheneo was used 17times to refer to sickness and not weakness.

If only we would learn to understand the writer.

Paul said infirmity of the flesh/body and not infirmity in the body/flesh. He meant he was weak, beaten, flogged badly with scars and marks all over his body etc. yet the Galatians didn't feel ashamed of him. They accepted his message.

He wasn't rejected or despised, that's what he said and NO he had no infection from his injuries. If a snake bite couldn't infect him, the beatings wouldn't too.

Finally!! A whiff of breakthrough! This is what I have been saying all along man. This was the infirmity of the flesh- his batterings, beatings, stonings due to the persecution he suffered. That's why he used astheneia and not astheneo. He was not SICK or DISEASED.

I am an Honest person and I need the Greek studies for clarity as most of the translators only understood the Greek language but not the Holy Spirit's.

Romans 8:26King James Version (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

See the translators calling the Holy Spirit; the creator of heaven and earth; the first person in the Godhead to be introduced; the power of God; Author of the scriptures etc. an "it" and describing him as an "itself" simply because of the word Pneuma translated Spirit or Wind which seems impersonal.

No sir, I will use the Greek lexicon. And like Jesus and Paul, I will never be sick in my life!!! Amen.

mbaemeka:


1 Timothy 5:23King James Version (KJV)
23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

The word infirmities as used here is astheneia. Like I said to trustman Infirmties encompasses sicknesses and diseases but diseases and sicknesses do not encompass infirmities. And astheneia was used by Paul only to describe a weakness and not a disease or sickness. When Paul talked about sicknesses he used astheneo. Therefore in this case Paul said use a little wine to strengthen your oftenly weak stomach. I know some translators translated the word to mean illnesses, but they would be wrong because Paul was so articulate he knew when to use words like astheneo, astheneia and even asthenes. If he knew to use astheneo for Trophimus then he knew to use astheneia for Timothy.



I am honest with myself and for those words to be used interchangeably then there should be some consistency in usage even as we consider the user. In John 5:5 the (man was weak in his legs- he could not walk; used to describe impotency; not used by Paul). 1 Corinthians 8:12 the word used was asthenes and it meant weak conscience. In 2 Corinthians 11:21, asthenekanem was used (only once all scripture) by the very articulate Paul to refer to a lack of confidence (mental weakness). Astheneia was used more than 15times to refer to anything but sickness and disease while Astheneo was used 17times to refer to sickness and not weakness.

If only we would learn to understand the writer.



Paul said infirmity of the flesh/body and not infirmity in the body/flesh. He meant he was weak, beaten, flogged badly with scars and marks all over his body etc. yet the Galatians didn't feel ashamed of him. They accepted his message.



He wasn't rejected or despised, that's what he said and NO he had no infection from his injuries. If a snake bite couldn't infect him, the beatings wouldn't too.



Finally!! A whiff of breakthrough! This is what I have been saying all along man. This was the infirmity of the flesh- his batterings, beatings, stonings due to the persecution he suffered. That's why he used astheneia and not astheneo. He was not SICK or DISEASED.



I am an Honest person and I need the Greek studies for clarity as most of the translators only understood the Greek language but not the Holy Spirit's.


Romans 8:26King James Version (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

See the translators calling the Holy Spirit; the creator of heaven and earth; the first person in the Godhead to be introduced; the power of God; Author of the scriptures etc. an "it" and describing him as an "itself" simply because of the word Pneuma translated Spirit or Wind which seems impersonal.

No sir, I will use the Greek lexicon. And like Jesus and Paul, I will never be sick in my life!!! Amen.