Sweetlemon:

If you really read those books I'm sure you would have taken note of the correct spelling of Ishekiri by now.

shymexx:

Jekri!

Rexxie:
i learnt that also obtains in the benin kingdom,that the oba of benin mustsnt see his 1st son..legend has it that the current oba of benin got so old his mother had to trick oba Akenzua to the palace court to behold something important only to get there to his son..learnt he got angry,turned back and placed a curse on her and stormed into his charmber never to be seen again...well,i dont know the authenticity of that but i know the current oba was old in years b4 ascending the throne just like prince charlse is getting old while da queen is still frolicking..

shymexx:

Lmao!!! Olokun is Bini god, yet Bini empire was landlocked, no? What does Olokun mean in Bini language?

And what does Ogun mean in Bini language?

I already posted the link about Yoruba influence on Bini arts, go read that. Your brass and terracotta arts came from Yoruba. I'd even wager that the genesis of your Bronze casting also has Yoruba origins.

I'm still doing a scholarship about which of the two kingdoms, Ijebu or Benin, actually first built a moat to surround their kingdoms. And it seems the moat thing most likely came from the Ijebu's, since the Ijebu moat was far bigger than Benin's and it has been labelled as one of the biggest ever.

MacLovington: .
The Romans adopted many gods from Greece and even Egypt and many other places/colonies. Even Islam & Christianity of today are from the Middle East but Chris Oyakhilome & Adeboye are not suddenly from Israel.

Olokun has a meaning and Okun also has a meaning in Bini.

Benin Moats are far bigger than Erodo moats. Get your facts right.

In fact check ur encyclo. Benin moat was regarded as mankind's largest ever work BEFORE Chinese people suddenly claimed to have discovered extra miles of ancient walls.
Note that Benin & Sungbo walls were studied by independent scientists unlike the "new extra miles" by the Chinese.

I have both Bini & Yoruba heritage, I have no need to claim one is superior using bare-face lies.

The problem I see is that many people are not objective and they approach the matter with a massive bias.

[b]To enclose his palace he commanded the building of Benin's inner wall, a seven-mile (11 km) long earthen rampart girded by a moat 50 feet (15 m) deep. This was excavated in the early 1960s by Graham Connah. Connah estimated that its construction, if spread out over five dry seasons, would have required a workforce of 1,000 laborers working ten hours a day seven days a week. Ewuare also added great thoroughfares and erected nine fortified gateways

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benin_Empire

The eredo is, essentially, a moat, with an earth wall alongside it - together, they run, in a circle, for a length of about 100 miles. Mr Sanni's map showed how they snake through thick rainforest, and across deep swamps

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/364754.stm

Sweetlemon:

I understand the first part of your reply but as for the second part all I can say is keep deceiving yourself. Yorubas claim Ishekiris and Igalas every opportunity they get. But the Ishekiris I know will not fail to correct you and proudly tell you that they are Ishekiris and not Yorubas. they are quick to correct the difference btw Omawunmi and Omowunmi, etc. Besides, it is Ishekiri and not Itshekiri.

Rexxie:
i learnt that also obtains in the benin kingdom,that the oba of benin mustsnt see his 1st son..legend has it that the current oba of benin got so old his mother had to trick oba Akenzua to the palace court to behold something important only to get there to his son..learnt he got angry,turned back and placed a curse on her and stormed into his charmber never to be seen again...well,i dont know the authenticity of that but i know the current oba was old in years b4 ascending the throne just like prince charlse is getting old while da queen is still frolicking..

shymexx:

I've got all the love and respect in the world for Benin folks, and the achievements of that great empire. Edo people are like my brothers. So, best believe I'm objective as possible. And this isn't about superiority. It's about giving credits where it's due, to protect our mutual history.

Anyway, I'm glad you accepted that certain aspects of Bini religions were borrowed from Yoruba's, unlike these other folks living in denial. And a lot of things in Yoruba culture/traditions/arts were also borrowed from the Bini's and other tribes.

As for the moat, I'll speak based on FACTS, not fiction. Why isn't the Bini in the guinness book of records like the Ijebu moat? And how come the Ijebu moat preceded it?

Size of the two moats again to see which was actually bigger:

Benin Moat:



Ijebu Sungbo Eredo Moat:



^^^Can you compare 11 miles(Bini), to the 100 miles(Ijebu)?

Edit: I had to change the first source. That was hyperbole by Benin folks.

justi4jesu: gbege

Benin city is just too dirty for my liking

Malawian:
that was not the story. we had a bini neighbour sometime ago and he always regalled us with tales from the bini kingdom. the story was that the reigning oba overstayed on the throne such that his edaiken started having grey hairs. the edaiken now pull some of his grey hairs and sent it to the oba to know that time was no longer on his side. the oba now removed his "talisman".

about that "talisman" it is said to be the symbol of the immortality of bini kings. they either wear it on their waists or hand it somewhere in thier chambers, but once they drop it on the floor. it is instant death.

it was this talisman that the oba now dropped and gave way for the ediaken.

MacLovington: .


Well, if u chose your source in a particular way, u can prove that the tallest building in the world is Cocoa House in Ibadan. .

Benin moats and ramparts are definitely not 11 miles. I grew up to meet some of the ramparts.

The other thing is people think only Benin City had moats and ramparts. Not so. It extended to various towns and villages outside Benin.

Time doesn't permit me now to dig up the details.

Orlando Owoh:
Where is your evidence to dispute my picture evidence?

Orlando Owoh:
Give us proof.

bokohalal: So much fun reading this.
A shrine in Manila, Philipines, dedicated to Mary, mother of Jesus, is the burial place?
Oba of Benin was never buried in Ife. Not even thinkable.
Oba of Benin was never buried in Uselu. The old Palace was at Usama by the Siluko Road and Ekehuan Road junction.
Oba of Benin did not attend a wedding in Ife in February. I stand to be corrected that the Oba has only attended the wedding of some of his children and never outside Benin City.
Only till about the reign of Oba Olua (Oluwa) was there a significant amount of Yoruba in Benin .
Only the inner moat was mentioned by Shymexx. The Benin moats measure over a thousand miles.
OLO is an Edo word.
Ife is farther from the coast than Benin City is. The argument that Benin is landlocked and thus cannot be the origin of Olokun,but Ife, is illogical in that sense. Not however saying Benin.
Iguegha is a Benin name. Like to know what Yoruba called the original bronze caster.
Many Nigerian historians have biases against Benin.

Another theory is based on the chronology developed by Fagg and Dark, according to which the Benin bronze sculptures were strongly influenced by the casting art of the Yoruba city Ife from the 13th to 15th century. Their theory is likewise based on observations, that the realistic and sensitive representation is typical, both for the bronzes from Ife and for the early period of Benin art, what is therefore usually seen as a proof for the influence by Ife and the remarkable Ife style.

http://www.galerie-herrmann.com/arts/art6/Kolumnen/2007_04_Bronzen/Artikel_Hecht_engl.htm

MacLovington: .
Well, if u chose your source in a particular way, u can prove that the tallest building in the world is Cocoa House in Ibadan. .

Benin moats and ramparts are definitely not 11 miles. I grew up to meet some of the ramparts.

The other thing is people think only Benin City had moats and ramparts. Not so. It extended to various towns and villages outside Benin.

Time doesn't permit me now to dig up the details.

Fellonigerians: Very sad that such a subject that should illicit intelligent discussions has been turned into a competition between regions and tribes...

Na only arguments una dey like have for this Nairaland... How can people exchange ideas here with such hostilities

Nigeria we hail thee!!!

shymexx:

No oral history and hyperbole.

Please provide academic proofs.

shymexx:

[s]Let's start with "Olokun" - what does the full name, not just "Olo" mean in Edo language? I believe the Olokun worship never started in Ife, it's common among the coastal Yoruba's. Most mainland Yoruba's don't worship Olokun - I stand to be corrected.

As for the Benin moat, archaeologists put the length at what I posted - around 11km. If it were longer than that, why didn't it beat the Ijebu moat for the Guinness book of records? And if you think it's longer than what I posted, provide academic proofs, not just oral history. I'm sure they've excavated the place and there should be enough academic references. Also, historians put the Benin moat at around the 15th century(1440A.D) and the Ijebu moat at around the 9th century(850A.D) - and that should tell you which of the two preceded the other. I believe Dapper also put the rise of Benin empire to around the 15th century, while he also alluded to European explorers trading and buying clothes from a Kingdom in Gebu(Ijebu) Ode surrounded by moat, ruled by Agusale(Awujale) around 11th/12th century.[/s]

About the bronze casting and how Ife influenced Bini, this is another academic source:




Please be as objective as possible and provide academic proofs. We're all here to learn.

jude33084:
Search for Prince E. Ebohon. The owner of Ebon cultural center Benin; he is my uncle

If you have time I can take to tour some ancient site in Benin so that you can ask questions and get a first hand answers not the ones the Yorubas academicians are writing

Na dem first go school we no argue that one

[b]Let us start our excursion to history with some indisputable records regarding the supremacy of Yoruba and by extension, Ile-Ife, over Benin Kingdom. I quote thus: "In 1916, when Aguobasimi was installed as Oba of Benin in place of his father who died in Calabar while on exile, and the royal messengers of the then Ooni of Ife - Oba Ademiluyi(aka Lawarikan), went to him after a series of earnest requests, they delivered Ooni's message thus: "YOUR FATHER GREETS YOU." (See Nigerian National Archives: Oyo Prof. 1, File 133, 24th May, 1916). And listen to this: "The place called "Orun-Oba-Ado Bini" is the site from where great Oranmiyan set out to found the Yoruba Dynasty in Benin, and it is to here that the heads of the Kings of Benin were brought for burial. The head and nail pairings of King Adolo, the 34th Oba of Benin, who reigned between 1848AD to 1888AD was brought from Benin to Ife in 1888 AD, during the reign of Ooni Derin Ologbenla (1880–1894) - the last occasion on which the tradition was kept." - (See "Ife: The Genesis of Yoruba" p240-1), by Late Dr.(Chief) M. A. Fabunmi." Note: Fabunmi was the Personal Secretary, for over 20 years or there about, to the Late Oba Adesoji Aderemi, the Ooni of Ife, who reigned for 50 years from 1930 - 1980. The late Ooni was born in 1891 and he died in 1980.

And again, in 1982, when the present Oba of Benin paid an official visit to Ile-Ife. A speech of welcome presented by Ooni to the Oba was at that time prepared for the Ooni by Prof. (Sabiru) Biobaku, and I think that the man or people who knew this are still alive. He was a former Vice-Chancellor of University of Lagos and a Professor of History (like Ade-Ajayi). Part of the speech read: “We welcome Your Royal Highness most heartily back to Ile-Ife, the cradle of our common culture, the origin of your dynasty and ours. Today is really a very good day for us in us and its environs because since you left in 891 AD, we have come to know that your dynasty has performed wonderfully well." Biobaku is not just an ordinary historian but one of the best Yoruba and African historians.

Preamble.

The first edition of this article was titled, “Yoruba and Benin Kingdom: The Missing Gap of History”, following the statement credited to Oba Ereduwa OmoN'oba Iku Opolopolo, that the Yoruba race originated from Benin Kingdom, though rich in details and calls for re-examination by historians of high repute from all the Nigerian universities and recognized institutions not from uneducated and bias sources of chambers or shrines of some Obas or traditional rulers as presently being envisaged or contemplated. The statement from Ooni of Ife disputing the fact of Oba of Benin was also strong enough, but more mythological and also capable of influencing some academic exercises. The statement from the two kings and the follow up from Oba of Lagos and host of others had generated lots of discussion worldwide but some questions still remain unanswered. The second publication was titled: “Ile Ife: The Final Resting Place of History”. In doing further research, I will now title my little contribution: "Yoruba and Benin Kingdom: Classical Historical 'War' of Supremacy."

During my findings on the above subject-matter of interwoven history, I dug out some salient facts and records that I feels and thinks as much that history will be kind to me and prosperity will forgive me, if I am able to put them on good record and to the knowledge of not only the Yoruba race, but the world at large. For it is true that, the only debt we owe history is to re-write it and rekindle it's perspective without any attempt to distorting and/or tainting its facts in any form, shape and size. By the way, this writer is from Ora-Igbomina, in Ifedayo Local Government Area of Osun State. My descendants came from Ile-Ife. They were led by the first Asa'Ooni Okese Oloja, who ran away from being installed as another Ooni after his siblings who were previously installed died one after the other! So, the title of the royal father: "Asa'Ooni" means, "one who ran away from being made an "Ooni of Ife." Ooni is the royal title of the traditional ruler of Ile-Ife. And till date, whenever a new Asa'Ooni is to be installed, there must be an approval from the Ooni of Ife. In fact, before a new Asa'Ooni can meet the reigning Ooni (or vice versa), there are some rituals that must be performed in tandem with ancient custom and tradition; and many titles of the Ooni chiefs are also reciprocated in Asa'Ooni-in-Council. The traditional paean - a hymn of praise called "oriki" in Yoruba land is the same with that of the royal palace in Ile-Ife. And today, only Asa'ooni of Ora, throughout Yoruba land, shares similar title with the Ooni of Ife! This background has given me opportunity to access many historical facts - both oral and written. I have had access to some books relating to the Origin of Yoruba race and the Benin kingdom. Therefore, the basis and pillars of my historical sojourn.

The above historical record is necessary, in order to establish where one is coming from. In dabbling into the seeming "war of supremacy" between the Yoruba and Benin people, one does not have to be a trained historian, but it is absolutely necessary for one to consciously and cautiously adopt enough empirical evidences and historical references. These shall be revealed in the course of my submissions. Records don't lie. It is we human beings that lie in our efforts to distort history in trying to re-write it! But it is necessary for us to always pay our debts that we are owing history. Our fathers preserved our history for us and we are also duty bound to hand it over to the next generation. It was indicated in one of the "Letters of Junius" (or Junius: Stat nominis umbra) - a collection of private and open letters from an anonymous polemicist Junius, as well as other letters in-reply from people to whom Junius had written between 1769 and 1772, that: "We owe it to our ancestors to preserve those rights, which they have delivered to our care and we owe it to our prosperity, not to suffer their inheritance to be destroyed."

Let us start our excursion to history with some indisputable records regarding the supremacy of Yoruba and by extension, Ile-Ife, over Benin Kingdom. I quote thus: "In 1916, when Aguobasimi was installed as Oba of Benin in place of his father who died in Calabar while on exile, and the royal messengers of the then Ooni of Ife - Oba Ademiluyi(aka Lawarikan), went to him after a series of earnest requests, they delivered Ooni's message thus: "YOUR FATHER GREETS YOU." (See Nigerian National Archives: Oyo Prof. 1, File 133, 24th May, 1916). And listen to this: "The place called "Orun-Oba-Ado Bini" is the site from where great Oranmiyan set out to found the Yoruba Dynasty in Benin, and it is to here that the heads of the Kings of Benin were brought for burial. The head and nail pairings of King Adolo, the 34th Oba of Benin, who reigned between 1848AD to 1888AD was brought from Benin to Ife in 1888 AD, during the reign of Ooni Derin Ologbenla (1880–1894) - the last occasion on which the tradition was kept." - (See "Ife: The Genesis of Yoruba" p240-1), by Late Dr.(Chief) M. A. Fabunmi." Note: Fabunmi was the Personal Secretary, for over 20 years or there about, to the Late Oba Adesoji Aderemi, the Ooni of Ife, who reigned for 50 years from 1930 - 1980. The late Ooni was born in 1891 and he died in 1980.

And again, in 1982, when the present Oba of Benin paid an official visit to Ile-Ife. A speech of welcome presented by Ooni to the Oba was at that time prepared for the Ooni by Prof. (Sabiru) Biobaku, and I think that the man or people who knew this are still alive. He was a former Vice-Chancellor of University of Lagos and a Professor of History (like Ade-Ajayi). Part of the speech read: “We welcome Your Royal Highness most heartily back to Ile-Ife, the cradle of our common culture, the origin of your dynasty and ours. Today is really a very good day for us in us and its environs because since you left in 891 AD, we have come to know that your dynasty has performed wonderfully well." Biobaku is not just an ordinary historian but one of the best Yoruba and African historians.

Oranmiyan - the famous and an unequaled Yoruba prince and warrior was the only Yoruba royal enigma to have ruled over Benin Kingdom, founded and became the very first Alaafin of Oyo and later came back to become the Ooni of Ife! He, it was who restructured Benin Kingdom, married in Benin, had two sons who later became Oba of Benin monarch. It is on record that Ogiso troubled dynasty was discarded and subsequent kings in Benin became known and addressed as "Oba" till date, based on the order established in Benin Kingdom by Oranmiyan. Even up to 1939, Yoruba language was the official palace language in Benin. No wonder then that many Benin families bear Yoruba names! And what about designs of the Benin palace after the renowned and historical Oduduwa palace in Ile-Ife? It is true then what Simeon Strunsky (1879 - 1949) wrote in his book entitled: "No Mean City" that: "The years by themselves do not make a place historic. It is men who give the colour of history to a place by their deeds there or by merely having lived there."

And from Wikipedia comes this introduction: "The Ọọ̀ni of Ilé-Ifẹ̀ is the traditional ruler of Ile-Ife, whose dynasty goes back hundreds of years. Ife-Ifè is an ancient Yoruba people city in south-western Nigeria. Ọọ̀ni Lajamisan, who was the 8Th Ọọ̀ni of Ile Ife, was a Son of Ọọ̀ni Oranmiyan, (Ọọ̀ni Oranmiyan was also The first Oba of Benin, First Aláàfin of Oyo and the Father of Oṣile of Oke-Ona Egba). Ọọ̀ni Lajamisan the son of Ọọ̀ni Oranmiyan, was also the Father of Ọọ̀ni Lajodoogun, the 9th Ọọ̀ni of Ile Ife, through whom the genealogy of all succeeding Ọọ̀nis of Ile Ife until the reigning Ọọ̀ni Okunade Adele Sijuwade, Olubuse 11, Arole Oduduwa and the Head of the Yoruba Nation, is traced down to Ọọ̀ni Odùduwà, The Ancestral Father of the Yorubas Globally."

From Oba (Dr) Adedapo Tejuoso’s 212 page book, titled: "Oranmiyan: What’s in a name?", I quote: "In Yoruba parlance, a name is given to signify situation of birth in a home, posterity, sense of character and projection into the future. Oranmiyan was one of the seven sons of Okanbi, the only child of Oduduwa, and he reigned as the sixth Ooni of Ife. He was famed as a strong enigmatic leader, who led his people into a path of greatness that lasted several centuries, leaving a heritage that last till today. His Cenotaph, popularly known as Opa Oranmiyan, is in Ile Ife, and is a tourist destination. After several wars and conquests, and establishing the Benin and Oyo kingdoms, he was to later become the Ooni of Ife. The throne he held till he joined his ancestors."

It is my salient advice that, we must not allow ourselves to be hypnotized by the hollow rhetoric and any distortions of facts of history. We must not let any overpowering effluvium envelop our sense of history. With your permission, I want to quote Williams Moore, in his book titled: "Warri Kingdom" published in 1936, where he submitted that: "In this so-called civilized age, one is shocked to imagine what atrocities lie buried in the womb of nature and which may again hatch in the unknown future. All the same, the invincible truth is ever intact to conquer error, however formidable this may seem at first sight." Truth and facts stir the conscience, enriches the consciousness of man and ennobles the human soul to free itself from shackles of ignorance and selfishness. And now to ice my historical cake, let's borrow from the writing of Christopher Marlowe(1564 - 1593), who wrote thus: "I'm armed with more than complete steel, ...The justice of my quarrel."

Before I draw curtain on this important historical argument, I want to borrow some facts from the submission of my compatriot - Kunle I Sowunmi, a Yoruba man of Abeokuta origin, who had earlier run wrote from Dallas Texas, in the United States of America, in his writing titled: "Ile Ife - The Final Resting Place of History." And I quote, in extenso, "Ooni who is not a direct son or descendants of Oduduwa may not necessarily be considered viable in this discussion. Alafin of Oyo who is a descendant of the acceptable link between Yoruba and Edo must examine his place in history and that of his senior brother Orangun of Ila the first son who had disappeared into history because he never challenged Oranmiyan. The abdication of the throne is a loss of right for Oranmiyan to his son in Benin but if the son (Eweka) and his descendants according to history continue to respect tradition and be buried at Ife or received blessing before being crowned then we can conclude that Ife is superior to Benin and Edo’s must have in fact originated from Ife?

The question is this: Can a son be greater than his father? No. Or can a river be greater than its source? No. Otherwise it will dry. The source of Yoruba from Benin although appeared to be authentic as presented by Oba Eredua than Saudi Arabia or Lamurudu, which cannot be traced, traced in Saudi Arabian history. But the fact of history of allegiance of Oba of Benin to Ile Ife the cradle of Yoruba race before being crowned and after death is an indication that Ife is the source of both the Yoruba’s and Edo but the Yoruba’s and historians must come up with a very scientific and foolproof history to support this argument. This is an area the Ooni and other Yoruba writers have not defended enough. The argument of Professor Ajayi was not detailed or courageous enough. The professor wrote as if he was afraid to offend both the Yoruba and the Edos as against the fact, which would have helped the issue unless the Professor has no answer to the problem.

Alternatively, can we write off Alafin of Oyo from this discussion because his descendant failed to head the throne at Ile Ife when Oranmiyan was called? No. Some will say since he was buried at Ife to symbolize his rights to the throne or why did all his brothers fail to challenge his right to the Ife throne if he indeed was the last born maybe, that part of history was right that Oranmiyan was the first born not the last as mentioned by Oba of Benin. They’re so many unanswered questions of history. The answer is not if we will offend ourselves or change the place of Edo’s or Yoruba in history but who we are and where we were coming from. It is often said that it is a taboo to bury a king in exile. Ile Ife from all indications and by having the nails and heads of all the late kings of Benin and that of Oranmiyan himself buried at Ile Ife to this writer is the source of Edos and Yoruba and this fact must not be distorted with sentiments."

Finally, I want to advise the historical novices to stop distorting or doctoring history. With due respect for elders and most especially, "the-heads-that-wear-beaded-crowns"("awon ori dadedade", it is not the present person(s) who reign(s) now that will tell us the history that were on the ground before he was born. We know the truth and nobody should come and be playing with our collective psyche by making politically motivated statements. I found very distorting, disgusting and an historical fallacy, when some people say that, "Oduduwa was expelled or ran away from Benin to establish Ile-Ife!" Who told you that? It makes one incensed! What an historical heresy! It's one's native and natural privilege and right to keep records for posterity sake. It is good to call a spade a spade, no matter whose ox is gored. History remains the natural arbiter and God our historical umpire. Now I remember this: to celebrate the centenary of the Guardian newspapers of London and his 50th anniversary as editor, C.P. Scott wrote, 'A Hundred Years' in 1921. The essay's famous sentence: 'Comment is free, but facts are sacred.'

Only time will tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. But we must always establish the basic facts of history without any further distortion...

Segun A. Fadipe.
olusegunfadipe@africamail.com
[/b]

Orlando Owoh:
You're lying. Give me the name of that Yoruba that claims Itsekiri.

justi4jesu: gbege

Benin city is just too dirty for my liking

Gaggi:

Are u not d girl that sells her body in Dubai? The one exposed on the Dubai fraud thread? I can imagine u are familiar with dirt as it were.

5thNOTE: Am boiling angrily to hear that yoruba claim anything above their father and elder brother. U ppl provoke me. Treachrous elements.

5thNOTE: Am boiling angrily to hear that yoruba claim anything above their father and elder brother. U ppl provoke me. Treachrous elements.