Gombs:

[s]Keep circling, when you done, answer this

asides Jesus, did the rest Bible heroes had premonitions about their deaths?

Cheers[/s]

See me cancel yours too. So nice to get in the act.

Keep recycling and remixing your ideas too while I keep pointing out the errors therein.

Oh well! He can't answer... cos he knows the truth would mean shooting his foot

This thread reminds me the hymn of a dear man of God years years ago

Joseph Henry Gilmore 1834-1918

He leadeth me! O blessed thought,
O words with heav’nly comfort fraught;
Whate’er I do, where’er I be,
Still ’tis Christ’s hand that leadeth me.

 He leadeth me! He leadeth me!By His own hand He leadeth me;His faithful follower I would be,  For by His hand He leadeth me.

2Sometimes ’mid scenes of deepest gloom,
Sometimes where Eden’s bowers bloom,
By waters still, o’er troubled sea,
Still ’tis His hand that leadeth me.

3Lord, I would clasp Thy hand in mine,
Nor ever murmur or repine;
Content, whatever lot I see,
Since it is Thou that leadest me.

4And when my task on earth is done,
When, by Thy grace, the vict’ry’s won,
E’en death’s cold wave I will not flee,
Since Thou in triumph leadest me.

Source: http://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/h/585#ixzz36iWo9QeO

The man knew death was below his feet...he knew death can't snatch him away... let me keep humming on joor...

Candour:

If there's such a crew, then you must be a high ranking member.

You don't know my views on eternal security of the believer so I'll tell you. See the scripture I believe holds the full gospel message. See the clause in bold

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I know Peter didn't believe in vain because he stayed the course till his martyrdom. There is no way Peter could have believed in Christ and rejected that particular information because it wasn't open for debate. Christ wasn't seeking his opinion. Christ was simply pre informing him of what the future held for him as a Christian. If he left, it means he stopped believing in Christ. If he stopped believing, it means he believed in vain initially and stood disqualified. If it was open for negotiation, why didn't Christ inform the others about theirs too so they could decide to do or not to do? See what John, who was standing by when Christ gave Peter this information, wrote

1 John 2:19 KJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out , that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Also, Have you read "Foxes' book of martyrs"? If you've not, try and do. A lot of 'ordinary' Christians suffered more and died more horrible deaths than Peter. Being a Christian at that time came with terrible perils and everyone of them knew what they signed unto. He would not/could not have walked away and remained the Peter we talk about today.

Really?? You mean Moses could have refused to die on the mountain and simply pick up his staff and walk far away from God? Would the refusal have resulted in a struggle between God and Moses?? Was there any record of God consulting Moses before deciding Moses would die on the mountain?

Interesting. You're the guy that told us only a few weeks ago that all that is needed for salvation is for one to believe. That even to confess Jesus as Lord as stated in Romans 10 was not necessary. Today, you're telling us that believing is not enough. The believer also has to accept the manner of death specified by God. Because if he doesn't he has believed in vain all this while and will be doomed for eternity. Yet, the guy that doesn't confess Jesus when he can hasn't believed in vain? Your position has no basis in Scripture and you can't fool anyone with Bible verses that you put your own gloss on.

Whether Hezekiah wept sore, prayed for years, sowed seeds, declared words etc is immaterial. The crux of the issue is that he DECIDED not to die at the point that God wanted him to and that is a lesson for those of us that enjoy a better covenant based on better promises as another poster has said. It is actually a struggle for any one to claim that it was the weeping sore or what not that moved God- ONLY faith can. I can show us another person who sought a thing from God in tears but it didn't yield.


Hebrews 12:17King James Version (KJV)

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Scripture says Esau sought his blessings CAREFULLY with TEARS yet he was rejected. Esau wasn't in the "clique" of those who through faith could obtain promises. Hebrews says some others got their dead back to life (because they knew such deaths wasn't according to God's will) while some were tortured and had the option of disappearing from their assailants midst as did Jesus but they turned it down because they looked forward to a better resurrection. Some of them even braggadociosly felt the world wasn't worthy of them so like Stephen they commended their spirits into God's hand and checked out. There are many others that resisted death even when it showed up. They were aware like Elijah and Jesus that they had an innumerable number of angels standing watch over them ready to strike at the faintest call of help. These ones have escaped the worst car crashes, gun shot wounds and even death itself unscathed. Their testimonies are of immense value to us because they give credence to the bible truth that the body of christ is above death. Such that even when we DECIDE to leave this world we would do it in a way that glorifies God.

Praise the Lord! Halleluyah!

Gombs:

Joseph Henry Gilmore 1834-1918

He leadeth me! O blessed thought,
O words with heav’nly comfort fraught;
Whate’er I do, where’er I be,
Still ’tis Christ’s hand that leadeth me.

 He leadeth me! He leadeth me!By His own hand He leadeth me;His faithful follower I would be,  For by His hand He leadeth me.

2Sometimes ’mid scenes of deepest gloom,
Sometimes where Eden’s bowers bloom,
By waters still, o’er troubled sea,
Still ’tis His hand that leadeth me.

3[b]Lord, I would clasp Thy hand in mine,
Nor ever murmur or repine;
Content, whatever lot I see,
Since it is Thou that leadest me.[/b]

4And when my task on earth is done,
When, by Thy grace, the vict’ry’s won,
E’en death’s cold wave I will not flee,
Since Thou in triumph leadest me.

Source: http://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/h/585#ixzz36iWo9QeO

The man knew death was below his feet...he knew death can't snatch him away... let me keep humming on joor...

Thank God for this hymn. if only he understands and believes the hymn his own hands reproduced.

Stanza 2 says in deep gloom or in bloom, in still peaceful waters or in troubled seas, he's content because Christ is the one leading him. This was the mindset of the early Christians and its the mindset I've tried to show on the thread. In bad and good situations, in life or death, Christ leads so nothing to fear.

Stanza 3 defeats every point you've raised on this thread. Gilmore said he'll be content whatever lot he faced since its the Lord that is leading him. Being content means whether good or bad, as long as Christ is leading, its OK. This is much like Paul's mindset and very much in agreement with all I've written here.

Its shocking how you decided to misunderstand and misinterpret stanza 4. The man said when his job on earth is finished, he will not flee from the hands of death because Christ is leading. The man wasn't rejecting death, he was ready to embrace it.

Let me also hum along with you jare

He leadeth me! O blessed thought.....

^^^


You're doing a good work here,
just passing by the 'hood...
----oooO----
----(----)----
-----\--(--
------\_)-
-----------Oooo ---
-----------(--- -)---
------------)-- /----
------------(_/
PS: Moses and Elijah each asked God to kill them.
Who had the last say or word?
Was either disappointed when prayer(s) wasn't answered?

BabaGnoni: ^^^


You're doing a good work here,
just passing by the 'hood...

----oooO----
----(----)----
-----\--(--
------\_)-
-----------Oooo ---
-----------(--- -)---
------------)-- /----
------------(_/

PS: Moses and Elijah each asked God to kill them.
Who had the last say or word?
Was either disappointed when prayer(s) wasn't answered?

My bro, at the bolded, could it be God

Of course God had the final say. Even if they were disappointed, they're foot soldiers and are expected to obey the last command.

God is God and he always has the final decision.

God bless you jare

Candour:

My bro, at the bolded, could it be God

Of course God had the final say. Even if they were disappointed, they're foot soldiers and are expected to obey the last command.

God is God and he always has the final decision.

God bless you jare

^^^
I bet like Jonah (i.e. he too asked to die) they later realised that Daddy; Abba, knows best
I've been watching you since the thread's inception
You're capable, and seem to be enjoying yourself and having fun
Catch you later Alligator!

Candour:

Thank God for this hymn. if only he understands and believes the hymn his own hands reproduced.

Stanza 2 says in deep gloom or in bloom, in still peaceful waters or in troubled seas, he's content because Christ is the one leading him. This was the mindset of the early Christians and its the mindset I've tried to show on the thread. In bad and good situations, in life or death, Christ leads so nothing to fear.

Stanza 3 defeats every point you've raised on this thread. Gilmore said he'll be content whatever lot he faced since its the Lord that is leading him. Being content means whether good or bad, as long as Christ is leading, its OK. This is much like Paul's mindset and very much in agreement with all I've written here.

Its shocking how you decided to misunderstand and misinterpret stanza 4. The man said when his job on earth is finished, he will not flee from the hands of death because Christ is leading. The man wasn't rejecting death, he was ready to embrace it.

Let me also hum along with you jare

He leadeth me! O blessed thought.....

Lol

How does the above suggest the folks of old in the Bible had premonitions like your grandmother?

Gombs:

Lol

How does the above suggest the folks of old in the Bible had premonitions?

Is that the new problem bugging you now?? Did you see any word resembling premonition in the post you're referring to?

Candour:

If there's such a crew, then you must be a high ranking member.

You don't know my views on eternal security of the believer so I'll tell you. See the scripture I believe holds the full gospel message. See the clause in bold

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I know Peter didn't believe in vain because he stayed the course till his martyrdom. There is no way Peter could have believed in Christ and rejected that particular information because it wasn't open for debate. Christ wasn't seeking his opinion. Christ was simply pre informing him of what the future held for him as a Christian. If he left, it means he stopped believing in Christ. If he stopped believing, it means he believed in vain initially and stood disqualified. If it was open for negotiation, why didn't Christ inform the others about theirs too so they could decide to do or not to do? See what John, who was standing by when Christ gave Peter this information, wrote

1 John 2:19 KJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out , that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Also, Have you read "Foxes' book of martyrs"? If you've not, try and do. A lot of 'ordinary' Christians suffered more and died more horrible deaths than Peter. Being a Christian at that time came with terrible perils and everyone of them knew what they signed unto. He would not/could not have walked away and remained the Peter we talk about today.


Really?? You mean Moses could have refused to die on the mountain and simply pick up his staff and walk far away from God? Would the refusal have resulted in a struggle between God and Moses?? Was there any record of God consulting Moses before deciding Moses would die on the mountain?

Interesting. You're the guy that told us only a few weeks ago that all that is needed for salvation is for one to believe. That even to confess Jesus as Lord as stated in Romans 10 was not necessary. Today, you're telling us that believing is not enough. The believer also has to accept the manner of death specified by God. Because if he doesn't he has believed in vain all this while and will be doomed for eternity. Yet, the guy that doesn't confess Jesus when he can hasn't believed in vain? Your position has no basis in Scripture and you can't fool anyone with Bible verses that you put your own gloss on.

That he would be a different Peter from the one we talk about is not the same as sayng he was never a believer.

Sorry, my earlier response was messed up structurally.

^^^

Oh, btw, the above may be my last substantive post on this thread if agents of disunity that have come in will stay here to spread their foul odor. The thread was doing just fine without their coming in to sow discord. It's like some people dont think children of God can discuss without taking sides or some childish cliqueness.

Candour:

Is that the new problem bugging you now?? Did you see any word resembling premonition in the post you're referring to?

Yes, answer why you implied that ur grandmother had premonitions and Jesus was an exception cos he was God, hence I asked, did the heroes of the Bible also had premonitions?

nlMediator: ^^^

Oh, btw, the above may be my last substantive post on this thread if agents of disunity that have come in will stay here to spread their foul odor. The thread was doing just fine without their coming in to sow discord. It's like some people dont think children of God can discuss without taking sides or some childish cliqueness.

Exactly

nlMediator:

Interesting. You're the guy that told us only a few weeks ago that all that is needed for salvation is for one to believe. That even to confess Jesus as Lord as stated in Romans 10 was not necessary. Today, you're telling us that believing is not enough. The believer also has to accept the manner of death specified by God. Because if he doesn't he has believed in vain all this while and will be doomed for eternity. Yet, the guy that doesn't confess Jesus when he can hasn't believed in vain? Your position has no basis in Scripture and you can't fool anyone with Bible verses that you put your own gloss on.

You're very free to remix my posts into any format that would enable you vilify me but try not to add 'jara' when doing so. I asked you to tell how Peter could have rejected the manner of death Christ showed him without jeopardizing his eternity, you couldn't answer. Now you boldly twist my post and import things i never said nor implied to score cheap points?

See another instance with the same Peter. I hope this drives the point home

John 13:8 KJV
Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

Peter initially refused his feet be washed by Jesus but see the master's response at the bolded. IF I DONT, YOU HAVE NO PART WITH ME.

Do you think that declaration of the master would have had no effect on Peter's eternal destination? Or you assume our Lord was just blowing plenty hot air and blabbing?

When Peter saw that it wasn't a joking matter, see him trying to 'comply' but on his own terms. He wished to decide his own way

John 13:9 KJV
Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

However did Jesus succumb or let him have his way? Of course not. It was the Lord's way or the highway

John 13:10 KJV
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

That he would be a different Peter from the one we talk about is not the same as sayng he was never a believer.

The question is still "what would Peter have done differently to avoid the death the master showed him and still remain in a relationship with the master?

Sorry, my earlier response was messed up structurally.

I noticed. That's why I ignored it initially.

Gombs:

Yes, answer why you implied that ur grandmother had premonitions and Jesus was an exception cos he was God, hence I asked, did the heroes of the Bible also had premonitions?

I already answered and even gave you detailed examples and experiences of some of these heroes of faith, what else do you want?

If you don't like the answer I gave, how is that my fault? You're free to discard it but its on the WWW and any body interested will find it. If you are sure i'm wrong, pick it up from the answer I gave and let's proceed from there.

For the vision is yet for an appointed time,
but at the end it shall speak,
and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it;
because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
–Habakkuk 2:3 am so sorry

Candour:
You're very free to remix my posts into any format that would enable you vilify me but try not to add 'jara' when doing so. I asked you to tell how Peter could have rejected the manner of death Christ showed him without jeopardizing his eternity, you couldn't answer. Now you boldly twist my post and import things i never said nor implied to score cheap points?
See another instance with the same Peter. I hope this drives the point home
John 13:8 KJV
Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Peter initially refused his feet be washed by Jesus but see the master's response at the bolded. IF I DONT, YOU HAVE NO PART WITH ME.
Do you think that declaration of the master would have had no effect on Peter's eternal destination? Or you assume our Lord was just blowing plenty hot air and blabbing?
When Peter saw that it wasn't a joking matter, see him trying to 'comply' but on his own terms. He wished to decide his own way
John 13:9 KJV
Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
However did Jesus succumb or let him have his way? Of course not. It was the Lord's way or the highway
John 13:10 KJV
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
The question is still "what would Peter have done differently to avoid the death the master showed him and still remain in a relationship with the master?
I noticed. That's why I ignored it initially.

I don't add jara. I may misread but it's never intentional because I want to be sure I understand what I'm disagreeing with. I answered your question on how Peter could maintain his relationship with Jesus if he disagreed or disobeyed with the message on the manner of death. This time, let me answer this way: by leaning on The same mercy and grace that saved him. He can tell God that it is too hard for him to bear.

On washing of feet, you're on the wrong foot here. First, it was not just about Peter. It was about all the apostles. Jesus would have said the same thing to any of them, but they already complied. Second, that was an experience before the birth of Christianity. After Jesus' resurrection, one's eternal future is not determined by washing of feet. But by believing in Jesus and living for Him, repenting where we miss it.

I can see you're running away from your claim last month that salvation is based on believing only. Then, even your support crew came to assert that mere confession amounts to salvation by works. You're fine with it then. But now that it conflicts with the new reality you're projecting, it has become a case of twisting your words.

I have a simple question for you: who decided that Judas would be the one to betray Jesus - God or Judas?

Another simple one: if I pray to God to make me the MD of Chevron and He speaks to me the next day that He has answered positively and even sends somebody that never knew of the prayer to confirm it; when I start work at chevron, whose decision is it that I work at Chevron?

nlMediator:

I don't add jara. I may misread but it's never intentional because I want to be sure I understand what I'm disagreeing with. I answered your question on how Peter could maintain his relationship with Jesus if he disagreed or disobeyed with the message on the manner of death. This time, let me answer this way: by leaning on The same mercy and grace that saved him. He can tell God that it is too hard for him to bear.

@the bolded, its because you see it as a punishment and see Christianity as a passport to a life of ease. See what Christ had told them earlier in his ministry

Matthew 10:28 KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Death wasn't to be feared so God would have told him the same thing he told Paul

2 Corinthians 12:9 KJV
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

On washing of feet, you're on the wrong foot here. First, it was not just about Peter. It was about all the apostles. Jesus would have said the same thing to any of them, but they already complied. Second, that was an experience before the birth of Christianity. After Jesus' resurrection, one's eternal future is not determined by washing of feet. But by believing in Jesus and living for Him, repenting where we miss it.

We now know with the benefit of hindsight that even the ignominous and painful death picture too wasn't about Peter alone. It was about all the apostles (save John). My firm belief is that Peter was specifically informed because of his proclivity to go against specific programmes of the Spirit he wasnt comfortable with. Eg

1.Trying to steer Jesus away from the cross because he thought it was a horrible thing. (Matt 16:21-23, Mark 8:31-33)

2.Refusing to go to preach to Cornelius until God practically dragged him there. (Acts chapter 10)

Also like I said earlier the picture Christ painted to Peter wasn't open to negotiation because God wished to be glorified by it whether it was palatable to Peter and you or not.

John 21:19 KJV
This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

And we see Peter hold his peace about it henceforth.

I can see you're running away from your claim last month that salvation is based on believing only. Then, even your support crew came to assert that mere confession amounts to salvation by works. You're fine with it then. But now that it conflicts with the new reality you're projecting, it has become a case of twisting your words.

I know it's a challenge for you but can you try to leave 'crew'out of our discussion for once? I'm the one talking to you here. If you miss this 'crew', why not invite them?

My position on believing the gospel for salvation has not changed. Its still the same because that's the bible position. I gave you a scripture - the one i take as holding the full gist of the gospel that saves us today. I'll reproduce it here

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Ephesians 1:13 KJV
In whom ye also trusted , after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Hope you saw the parts in bold?

I have a simple question for you: who decided that Judas would be the one to betray Jesus - God or Judas?

God

Another simple one: if I pray to God to make me the MD of Chevron and He speaks to me the next day that He has answered positively and even sends somebody that never knew of the prayer to confirm it; when I start work at chevron, whose decision is it that I work at Chevron?

Yours

Hope you'll be ready to answer my own simple questions too?

The responses here are quite chilling and sad to read from Christians.

No wonder it is written that whoever loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. If truly you know your father has prepared a wonderful place for you and you really long to be with him then why the fear of death? Oh, I know, you don't really believe that part because life here seems sweet for you and you'd rather be like Esau and live for the now!

This is my problem with feel good messages being preached these days - you begin to think Earth is a Mega train station or airport where all you have to do is enjoy some coolade while surfing nairaland, waiting for your bus or flight to heaven. Not so brethren! It is going to be an air lift like is often the case of soldiers at war. For some, comfortable (on a greenland) and for some, uncomfortable (under the harsh conditions of a desert).

I took time out yesterday to read "Foxes book of matyrs" (please every Christian should download and read) and I was speechless at the persecution that the early Christians suffered. In some cases, a large number of people were led to christ because of the bravery and peace that these Christians exuded in the face of death (gruesome one and not just being shot or beheaded). In fact, in one case, a pagan standing by was so overwhelmed that he exclaimed "Their God must be so great!" - he was executed too.

Now, my question to some of you here;
i) Who does a soldier take orders from? Who decides when a soldier is withdrawn from war? Are you a soldier of christ? If yes, then on what basis do you decide when to be withdrawn or your opinion sought?
ii) Which of your pair of shoes decides what day to be worn or where to be worn? (after all it was bought with your money and belongs to you, right?) So by whose blood were you bought? To whom do you belong? How then do you decide your fate?

Lastly, the topic of this thread should be changed because it is ridiculous! God ANSWERS ALL PRAYERS! Just as YES is an answer, NO is also an answer except of course you feel God is your errand boy and must answer in the affirmative.

Processor01: The responses here are quite chilling and sad to read from Christians.
No wonder it is written that whoever loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. If truly you know your father has prepared a wonderful place for you and you really long to be with him then why the fear of death? Oh, I know, you don't really believe that part because life here seems sweet for you and you'd rather be like Esau and live for the now!
This is my problem with feel good messages being preached these days - you begin to think Earth is a Mega train station or airport where all you have to do is enjoy some coolade while surfing nairaland, waiting for your bus or flight to heaven. Not so brethren! It is going to be an air lift like is often the case of soldiers at war. For some, comfortable (on a greenland) and for some, uncomfortable (under the harsh conditions of a desert).
I took time out yesterday to read "Foxes book of matyrs" (please every Christian should download and read) and I was speechless at the persecution that the early Christians suffered. In some cases, a large number of people were led to christ because of the bravery and peace that these Christians exuded in the face of death (gruesome one and not just being shot or beheaded). In fact, in one case, a pagan standing by was so overwhelmed that he exclaimed "Their God must be so great!" - he was executed too.
Now, my question to some of you here;
i) Who does a soldier take orders from? Who decides when a soldier is withdrawn from war? Are you a soldier of christ? If yes, then on what basis do you decide when to be withdrawn or your opinion sought?
ii) Which of your pair of shoes decides what day to be worn or where to be worn? (after all it was bought with your money and belongs to you, right?) So by whose blood were you bought? To whom do you belong? How then do you decide your fate?
Lastly, the topic of this thread should be changed because it is ridiculous! God ANSWERS ALL PRAYERS! Just as YES is an answer, NO is also an answer except of course you feel God is your errand boy and must answer in the affirmative.

There are so many things wrong with the 'feel bad' message some of God's well meaning children end up accepting and endorsing and one of them is 2 pronged- ignorance and doubt (which is really disobedience if carefully understudied).

The first statement you made has been the most misunderstood message from John. John said he who loves the world does not have the love OF the father in him. He didn't say 'does not have the love FOR the father'. These two statements have a very significant difference between themselves. John meant such a person doesn't know that God loves him that is why the person has such love for the world. On the other hand, many interpret the statement to mean John was saying that the person doesn't love God and that is a lie. Many of you here that come to endorse a suffering Gospel (without being disrespectful) belong to the ilk of those that have love for God but are not aware about the love OF God that should be within. Once a man is ignorant of the love God has for us he/she will invariably look for it elsewhere. I mean, what is wrong in telling people the truth: that God always wants you well; that all good things come from him; that in him lies no shadow of turning or doubts; that he has made provision for all that by sending his son to die; that you are consecrated away from the sufferings that the world is to endure etc.

This is the hard-truth- immortality and life has been brought to light through the gospel. God is not in the business of subjecting us to the same uncertainty that the world experiences. We are in this world but not of the world that is why these things do not own us the way it owns you people.

You make a farce of things to think that because I have resisted Satan's desire to take me out of the world so it means that I am afraid of death. Please study, scripture says Jesus came to liberate those who through FEAR OF DEATH were all their life subject to bondage. Why did he do so? Because, Satan used death to cripple people. Lazarus' sisters, Jarius Daughter, Peter as well as other disciples deserted Jesus before because of the same fear. But when they realised the power they had over death they began to serve God better knowing that satan could not snatch their lives at any point like he was doing before. That is the message we are trying to pass. Peter, James, John, Phillip, Paul, Stephen and so on all were tortured at various points. Some of them resisted death until they were certain they were through with their assignments. Some of them didn't bother- they were tired of the world. Some of them didn't know this truth and they were killed. They awoke to a better resurrection but the fact is that they didn't accomplish what they were sent to do and for those of them we have their experiences to learn from. How do you explain the instance when Paul and Silas were slated to be killed but by prayer and singing of praises to God they were miraculously set free? How do you explain when Paul was murdered by the Jews but when his fellow disciples stood around him a man that was stoned and left for dead miraculously gets up immediately and travels the next day to preach in other regions? If he was killed and left for dead by his fellow disciples (assuming they said it was the will of God) would he have gone on to preach the gospel to other regions prior to then? Didn't you read where they hugged him and kissed him good bye at his final moments? Why do you suppose they did that? They knew he had accomplished his assignment. How do I know? Because Paul said exactly so to them even predicting what false teachers will come to do as soon as he is out of the way. It was more than a mere premonition. He knew he had run his course. We too know, so like Jesus we are running quickly because the time is short. We are not living life as though any day we would be snatched like carnal men. NO! When we are done we would check out- either Enochan style or the Moses way.

Candour:

@the bolded, its because you see it as a punishment and see Christianity as a passport to a life of ease. See what Christ had told them earlier in his ministry

Matthew 10:28 KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Death wasn't to be feared so God would have told him the same thing he told Paul

2 Corinthians 12:9 KJV
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.




We now know with the benefit of hindsight that even the ignominous and painful death picture too wasn't about Peter alone. It was about all the apostles (save John). My firm belief is that Peter was specifically informed because of his proclivity to go against specific programmes of the Spirit he wasnt comfortable with. Eg

1.Trying to steer Jesus away from the cross because he thought it was a horrible thing. (Matt 16:21-23, Mark 8:31-33)

2.Refusing to go to preach to Cornelius until God practically dragged him there. (Acts chapter 10)

Also like I said earlier the picture Christ painted to Peter wasn't open to negotiation because God wished to be glorified by it whether it was palatable to Peter and you or not.

John 21:19 KJV
This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

And we see Peter hold his peace about it henceforth.




I know it's a challenge for you but can you try to leave 'crew'out of our discussion for once? I'm the one talking to you here. If you miss this 'crew', why not invite them?

My position on believing the gospel for salvation has not changed. Its still the same because that's the bible position. I gave you a scripture - the one i take as holding the full gist of the gospel that saves us today. I'll reproduce it here

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Ephesians 1:13 KJV
In whom ye also trusted , after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Hope you saw the parts in bold?


God


Yours

Hope you'll be ready to answer my own simple questions too?

Asking for the manner of death to be changed does not necessarily mean selfishness, hatred of sacrifice or standing in the way of God’s Plan. It’s simply human. I don’t know why it is hard for us to understand that we’re still human and have certain feelings. Jesus asked God in serious prayer at the Garden of Gethsemane to consider changing the manner of death designed for Him. If the Son of God could pray that way, how about us mortals? In the case of Jesus, it could not be changed. Unlike Jesus, neither Peter nor any other Christian is indispensable in the plan or purpose of God to reach the lost, etc., even when obedience will bring Him glory.

The thorn example from Paul you presented further cements my point. Paul was human and sought escape from punishment. Neither he nor God interpreted it as an indication that he has believed in vain. God can decide not to grant the request without castigating or condemning the person. And it’s easier to reject a request for removal of a thorn than one for violent death. So, that Paul got one answer does not mean Peter could not have gotten a different answer.

On your crew, invite ke! Avoiding them is the beginning of wisdom, so chances of my inviting them are below zero. On a more serious note, this is an open thread and everyone is welcome. They should simply avoid polluting the environment by doing the devil’s work of dividing the brethren as that would drive other people like me away.

Sure, I understand that you think the way to salvation is believing, excluding believing in vain. What’s problematic is what you choose to include under ‘believing in vain.’ How do we determine what goes into that and what does not? Your position reminds me of a Nigerian pastor that gives altar calls by quoting the scripture that says “all unrighteousness is sin” and then goes ahead to list a host of things he calls unrighteousness, including ladies’ hair attachment and weave on. That’s the same thing you’re doing here. Choose a scripture and make things you choose fit into it.

I disagree with you on Judas. The prophecy that somebody would betray Jesus never mentioned Judas Iscariot. Just as the birth of the Savior by a virgin did not mention Mary. Each made a decision to fit into God’s plan. The only way God could be justified in punishing Judas was because Judas acted on his free will. If God decided for him and he had no role but be an automaton, why should he die the way he did? Similarly, even when Jesus told Peter that he would betray Him and that it would be orchestrated by the devil, it was still Peter’s action. That’s why when he realized his error, he wept and repented (sign of personal responsibility) instead of relaxing or blaming it on God.

On the Chevron job, I agree with you. But you see, it was God’s decision to give me the job and He even sent somebody to confirm the message. But it was still up to me to cooperate with His decision. That cooperation is also a decision, as you rightly stated. That’s the same thing with the believer’s death.

I welcome your questions.

Processor01: The responses here are quite chilling and sad to read from Christians.

No wonder it is written that whoever loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. If truly you know your father has prepared a wonderful place for you and you really long to be with him then why the fear of death? Oh, I know, you don't really believe that part because life here seems sweet for you and you'd rather be like Esau and live for the now!

This is my problem with feel good messages being preached these days - you begin to think Earth is a Mega train station or airport where all you have to do is enjoy some coolade while surfing nairaland, waiting for your bus or flight to heaven. Not so brethren! It is going to be an air lift like is often the case of soldiers at war. For some, comfortable (on a greenland) and for some, uncomfortable (under the harsh conditions of a desert).

I took time out yesterday to read "Foxes book of matyrs" (please every Christian should download and read) and I was speechless at the persecution that the early Christians suffered. In some cases, a large number of people were led to christ because of the bravery and peace that these Christians exuded in the face of death (gruesome one and not just being shot or beheaded). In fact, in one case, a pagan standing by was so overwhelmed that he exclaimed "Their God must be so great!" - he was executed too.

Now, my question to some of you here;
i) Who does a soldier take orders from? Who decides when a soldier is withdrawn from war? Are you a soldier of christ? If yes, then on what basis do you decide when to be withdrawn or your opinion sought?
ii) Which of your pair of shoes decides what day to be worn or where to be worn? (after all it was bought with your money and belongs to you, right?) So by whose blood were you bought? To whom do you belong? How then do you decide your fate?

Lastly, the topic of this thread should be changed because it is ridiculous! God ANSWERS ALL PRAYERS! Just as YES is an answer, NO is also an answer except of course you feel God is your errand boy and must answer in the affirmative.

I don’t know why some of you prefer to debate with a straw man. Since you claim to have read the posts, I challenge you to show me any one that shows that somebody is afraid of death. And talking of feel good, you are the person really preaching a feel good message. You want to feel good that you love the Lord and are not afraid to die and go to Heaven. You want people to harbor similar feelings. But it’s all false.

Otherwise, prove me wrong by going to Afghanistan next week to live as a missionary and preach on the streets of Kabul. You would even earn a place in the book of martyrs. But I’m sure you won’t do it. Why not? Because you do not believe it’s God’s will for you to be there. That’s the point we’ve been making. People should not embrace death simply because they want to go to Heaven. They should embrace only the death that is God’s will for them.

I honor the lives and service of past and present day martyrs for the gospel. But I honor the Bible more. When I read the Bible, I see Christians who knew they had a job to do on earth, not play into the devil’s hands by embracing death that would only help reduce ministry effectiveness on earth. When Epaphroditus was sick, Paul said God had mercy on him and Paul by not letting him die. So, Paul and Epaphroditus are afraid to die or are not interested in going to Heaven? Paul even said God sparing Epaphroditus spared Paul “sorrow upon sorrow. “ (Phil. 2:25-30). If any of us said that, some of you would be accusing us of hating sorrow and only looking for happiness and enjoyment. When Timothy was sick, Paul told him to drink wine. He didn’t tell him to succumb to the sickness and death to show he’s not afraid of death and doesn’t subscribe to a feel good gospel.

We find other examples from the early church. They just witnessed the first Christian martyr Stephen killed and his powerful testimony of seeing Jesus standing in Heaven as he was about to die. Yet, the next moment Saul went about looking for Christians to haul into prison, these Christians did not line up and say: ‘Here I am, take me, I want to be with Stephen and Jesus today.’ Even when Saul got converted and was sent to them, they responded by wondering if he was not the same guy persecuting Christians earlier. They did not rush out. If any of us acted that way today, you’d be brandishing the story of Stephen or that of other heroes that died for the faith. As if one part tells the whole story. No wonder Paul talked about preaching the whole counsel of God, something so lacking today, as people latch on to any pet set of scriptures and ignore the rest.

If things were as you present it, all a smart devil needs to get more souls in hell is to throw sicknesses, accidents and the like at Christians and they’ll accept death and move on to Heaven. That way, there will be little preaching of the gospel. When we got born again, God could have taken us straight to Heaven. He kept us on earth for a purpose. We can’t run away from that purpose by checking out before our time and patting ourselves on the back that we are not afraid of death. It’s God’s will for us to live long and use our long lives for His service. We’ll have plenty of time to spend in Heaven.

nlMediator:


Asking for the manner of death to be changed does not necessarily mean selfishness, hatred of sacrifice or standing in the way of God’s Plan. It’s simply human. I don’t know why it is hard for us to understand that we’re still human and have certain feelings. Jesus asked God in serious prayer at the Garden of Gethsemane to consider changing the manner of death designed for Him. If the Son of God could pray that way, how about us mortals? In the case of Jesus, it could not be changed. Unlike Jesus, neither Peter nor any other Christian is indispensable in the plan or purpose of God to reach the lost, etc., even when obedience will bring Him glory.

I have never quarrelled with anybody's right to ask. You can decide to ask for the presidency of the united states or for God to even vacate his throne for you. One irrefutable fact and truth is that the prerogative for actioning the request rests solely with God Almighty. If he refuses, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Its called the sovereignty of God.

Jesus requested that the cup of suffering pass but he knew the rules hence the everlasting statement of surrender to God "Not my will, but thy will be done"

Peter was very much aware of this. It was going to bring glory to God and that's what counted and should always count for a Christian.

The thorn example from Paul you presented further cements my point. Paul was human and sought escape from punishment. Neither he nor God interpreted it as an indication that he has believed in vain. God can decide not to grant the request without castigating or condemning the person .And it’s easier to reject a request for removal of a thorn than one for violent death. So, that Paul got one answer does not mean Peter could not have gotten a different answer.

@ the bolded, Halleluyah o. This is all I've been saying since the start of the thread. God might chose to grant or not.

Of course Paul knew he was human. He wasn't lying to himself that he was a god. He even escaped some killers by coming down a city wall in a basket. I wish Christians screaming godhood will hear.

The holy spirit indicated clearly that Peter's horrible death was to bring glory to God. Just as Christ before him, Peter knew nothing could change that. Maybe he even gathered prayer warriors to pray but if God said no, who could say yes? An atheist might find that in bad taste, a Christian shouldn't.

On your crew, invite ke! Avoiding them is the beginning of wisdom, so chances of my inviting them are below zero. On a more serious note, this is an open thread and everyone is welcome. They should simply avoid polluting the environment by doing the devil’s work of dividing the brethren as that would drive other people like me away.

And your crew do not pollute the environment by doing the devils work? How many snide remarks have been thrown my way on this thread that I've overlooked?

Pls chill

Sure, I understand that you think the way to salvation is believing, excluding believing in vain. What’s problematic is what you choose to include under ‘believing in vain.’ How do we determine what goes into that and what does not? Your position reminds me of a Nigerian pastor that gives altar calls by quoting the scripture that says “all unrighteousness is sin” and then goes ahead to list a host of things he calls unrighteousness, including ladies’ hair attachment and weave on. That’s the same thing you’re doing here. Choose a scripture and make things you choose fit into it.

Maybe you forgot what you said that started this discussion on Peter. You said "But its up to Peter if he wanted that or not. He could have walked away on Jesus and died differently". So pls tell how someone could walk away on Jesus and not jeopardise his eternity simply because he wanted to die differently.

Also, its not your place or my place to tell what goes into 'believing'. We can't see the heart. That's why all those recitals of the sinners prayer is all nonsense. You can recite it a million times and never truly believe it for once. What matters is the heart which only the master can see. If Peter's heart was always with master, then he wouldn't walk away from the master just because he was afraid of dying violently. When he denied Christ, he came back because he knew where his home was. If he ran away to India, like Jonah was forced back, he would have been forced back home and still made to go through what he was trying to flee.

I disagree with you on Judas. The prophecy that somebody would betray Jesus never mentioned Judas Iscariot. Just as the birth of the Savior by a virgin did not mention Mary. Each made a decision to fit into God’s plan. The only way God could be justified in punishing Judas was because Judas acted on his free will. If God decided for him and he had no role but be an automaton, why should he die the way he did? Similarly, even when Jesus told Peter that he would betray Him and that it would be orchestrated by the devil, it was still Peter’s action. That’s why when he realized his error, he wept and repented (sign of personal responsibility) instead of relaxing or blaming it on God.

Granted the prophecy never mentioned Judas but do you think physical death matter so much? What type of death did he die that innocents all over the world haven't experienced? His physical death was many times better than what early Christians went through. Why, he wasnt even tortured. His eternal destiny was infinitely more important and that is where I believe he blew it. Despite the betrayal, he could have come back but he didn't.

Have you seen the scripture below before?

Romans 9:17-22 KJV
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. [18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy , and whom he will he hardeneth. [19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? [20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Do you think Pharaoh had a choice?

On the Chevron job, I agree with you. But you see, it was God’s decision to give me the job and He even sent somebody to confirm the message. But it was still up to me to cooperate with His decision. That cooperation is also a decision, as you rightly stated. That’s the same thing with the believer’s death.

Was God at liberty to refuse you the job? If he had, what would you have done?

I welcome your questions.

None for now.

^^^

I think you're making this a lot about Peter and whether or not he could have said No. While the issue is that Peter and the rest died under the will of God. In the process, you miss the big issue, which is that not every untimely death is of God. Christians should be encouraged to resist and reject untimely death. But you took issues with resistance to death, saying in your very first post or so on this issue that believers of old were more accepting of death than today's christians. And if you're presented with David's death, you said he knew because he was old! 70 years is old? If at 70, people knew they'd soon die, what happens if they live till 90? So, they had premonitions for 20 years!

For the record, I'm all for what Peter and Paul did in accepting God's will for their lives. I'd do the same. But the aspect of acceptance should not be minimized. It's because they and Jesus accepted God's will that we celebrate them today. Not because they (Peter and other mortals) had no choice. That flies in the face of God's purpose of creating human beings who are free moral agents. He wants people who on their own will choose to do His will. That's why He did not stop Adam and Eve from sinning, even when stopping them would have saved God and the rest of us a lot of headache.

nlMediator: ^^^

I think you're making this a lot about Peter and whether or not he could have said No. While the issue is that Peter and the rest died under the will of God. In the process, you miss the big issue, which is that not every untimely death is of God. Christians should be encouraged to resist and reject untimely death. But you took issues with resistance to death, saying in your very first post or so on this issue that believers of old were more accepting of death than today's christians. And if you're presented with David's death, you said he knew because he was old! 70 years is old? If at 70, people knew they'd soon die, what happens if they live till 90? So, they had premonitions for 20 years!

You're the one who made Peter's case a big issue. If you had accepted at the earliest mention that it was the will of God that couldn't be changed, it wouldn't have gone this far.

And how do you know which death is timely and which is untimely? I never took exception to resisting death. I took exception to the lie that "All heroes of scripture decided their deaths".

@the bolded, Do you mean David died untimely?

1 Kings 1:1 KJV
Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat.

The bible said he was old, do you disagree?

Is there a mandatory time frame for having premonitions? (Though I wonder where you got the idea of a 20 year premonition from)

For the record, I'm all for what Peter and Paul did in accepting God's will for their lives. I'd do the same. But the aspect of acceptance should not be minimized. It's because they and Jesus accepted God's will that we celebrate them today. Not because they (Peter and other mortals) had no choice. That flies in the face of God's purpose of creating human beings who are free moral agents. He wants people who on their own will choose to do His will. That's why He did not stop Adam and Eve from sinning, even when stopping them would have saved God and the rest of us a lot of headache.

@the bolded, thank God for his mercies. Wish all Christians could think more like this.

When you become a christian, your will should be lost in the master's plan. You surrender your whole life, will, desires etc to him. I don't know if you've sang the hymn "Take my life and let it be" before. I sing it everyday and it keeps me in remembrance of my calling: a calling to full surrender. His will, not my will. I no longer own my life, The Lord does. Processor01 saw it as soldiering, I agree with him

As an unbeliever, I was 'free' to do what I wanted; temporary freedom for everlasting damnation. As a believer, I submit my will, choice etc to him so I could reap life everlasting.

An unbeliever can carry on deciding to do whatever he wants. The end would show who the boss is.

^^^

But surrendering your will is a decision, a choice you make. The whole Christian experience is about growing in our surrender. Choice of manner of death is only one of millions of choices Christians make everyday. I hope you're not deceiving yourself into thinking that in all these decisions, you or other Christians always make the right choice. That's the point.

The other point is that people like Peter and Paul knew clearly what God's will was on this issue. For the vast majority of people facing death, God has not spoken to them or He did but their antenna is not properly tuned. Saying such people should accept death because Peter or some people in a book of martyrs did, misses the point. All of us should seek to grow in knowing His will for us.

And to grow in the grace of doing it because it's not always easy even when we want to . That's why we hear the expression: the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

nlMediator: ^^^

But surrendering your will is a decision, a choice you make. The whole Christian experience is about growing in our surrender. Choice of manner of death is only one of millions of choices Christians make everyday. I hope you're not deceiving yourself into thinking that in all these decisions, you or other Christians always make the right choice. That's the point.

The choice you have is the choice to follow Christ. This choice makes you enlisted into the army where your decisions and choices become dependent on the decision of your commander in chief. Paul didn't chose to be beheaded neither did Peter chose crucifixion. They had no choice. If they did, they'll prefer to go like Moses I'm sure. If you say you would have done better, I'll love to hear about what you know and have that they didn't.

@the bolded. Are you no longer a christian yourself? Were you not the one claiming God must cooperate with your decisions? so the onus is on you to tell us how correct the choices you make which God must abide by are. I don't delude myself thinking I own my life and can decide when I want to check out.

The other point is that people like Peter and Paul knew clearly what God's will was on this issue. For the vast majority of people facing death, God has not spoken to them or He did but their antenna is not properly tuned. Saying such people should accept death because Peter or some people in a book of martyrs did, misses the point. All of us should seek to grow in knowing His will for us.

Peter and Paul also knew that will of God couldn't be changed. That is the crux of the matter. I'm all for growing in the knowledge of the will of God for my life and pray about it everyday. I still ask, how do you know which person's death is the will of God and which isn't?

Do you think Stephen's death was not the will of God?

And to grow in the grace of doing it because it's not always easy even when we want to . That's why we hear the expression: the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Exactly. The Christian life isn't easy. Following the will of God can be hard because we are still in this corruptible body of flesh subject to pain and the like. This is why the bible is replete with exhortations to endure and persevere. See one of them

2 Timothy 2:3 KJV
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

The flesh is indeed weak. That is why I laugh at those who claim godhood. In this body of corruptible flesh? Naaaaa

As Christians, it must be known to us that we do not carry a nature of righteousness only. There is a certain conflict within every Christian - a war between the flesh (wired by the system of the world with the devil as it's propelling source) and the Spirit from God.

The entrance of the nature of the Spirit of God in us reveal the old nature within us. These two natures constantly war for domination of a believer. The bible says 'the flesh desires what is contrary to the spirit', it wars against the spirit... The spirit in us is perfect, it is divine, it cannot sin but we also have the flesh which is made in Sin, it is against God, it is the nature we inherited through genetics directly from our parents the source being through the fall of Adam. Our senses- sight, feel, hear, smell, taste are all members of the flesh connected and rooted to the world, these senses naturally war against FAITH and the God's spirit within us.

The great Apostle Paul described himself i.e his flesh and its members - "o wretched man that I am". Which means, even as Christians, we must realise how wretched and useless we are in our flesh. That which is of God seem very difficult to do but that evil which we really do not want to do are the things that we do without breaking a sweat.


The problem we have today is rendering prayers or requests to God from our nature of sin(flesh) and expect a righteous God to respond with a Yes. We pray, we fast and do the religious dos all to nourish the flesh and its desires.

We sought and use God as a tool to solve our supposed problems. We do not see God as the one who is to be sought on His own i.e as the end in Himself and not a means to an end.

We use God like one would use a servant- a servant is hired because there is a task to be accomplished. In retrospect, if there was no task, there wouldn't be a need for the servant. In other words, if we do not have problems, there will be no need for this 'problem solver' we claim we love.

In other words, through the idea and imagination that stem from the body of sin we ask God and get disappointed and frustrated when the prayers are not answered the way we have imagined. Most times we ask the wrong things through our natural mind almost like our children will do with us. All a child will ask his parent is prolly game consoles, iPad and what have you- they will hardly ask if their parent will provide where they will sleep or if the parent will pay their school fees. Like a Christian who lack the knowledge of God, they take the main and meaningful things for-granted and cry for and over frivolities.

At this point, am lost....in my own thread...

Wonderful

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Sometimes some of us christians think that God is our robot that we can manipulate anyhow. Yes faith works but faith doesnt mean that God should foolishly fall to your faith even when he is seeing that the faith you are exercising is not going to earn you any good. As much as we are exercising our faith in Christ let us also give room for "thine will be done". God is not a slowpoke. Jesus asked for the cup to be removed(typical of the flesh) but he quickly made room for God's will to be done. This flesh is so selfish and can never give better offer than God. If God in his wisdom feels its time to take me out of this world to come and be with him why should i feel he should keep me more? Since when did my little wisdom become much more than God's wisdom? Some of you are telling stories here. At the end of the day God will always have his way. " I will show mercy to whom i will show mercy". Thats God. If he doesnt want to show you mercy then you are wasting your time.