^^^

Gombs:

Issue here is, did death snatch him? This is someone God buried, a man who never saw hell

Whether death snatched him or he snatched death, I leave to you to decipher. The question begging for answer is "was it his decision to die on the mountain"? Or God's prerogative?

Ask Paul what he meant when he was writing Timothy... who decided he's finished his course

My friend, David is the focus here. Who decided when David finished his course? David or God?

Who said he decided to end his assignment? Dats suicide na...don't deviate from target...point is, did death snatch him away?

So you know it will be suicide yet you've been trying to get me to agree that heroes of old decided their deaths? Abi when person die, his assignment doesn't end?

I was pointing out that their mode of death is inconsequential...n dat death had no power over them...too bad u dnt see dat

I know its inconsequential and I'm glad you agree. Its you that feels you can decide when or how you go. Maybe you can tell us what you know or have that Peter, Paul etc didn't.

From the bold, are u sure u r a Christian? If Jesus did it, itmeans we can do much more than he did..that's Christianity.
1John 4:17 kjv
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world


As He IS, not WAS...my Jesus is alive, and He’s made me sit together with Him, meaning, am in the same league with Him...that's Christianity, Divinity in Human, He didn’t go to that cross to raise sissies or weaklings, He went to raise other Jesuses

With what you wrote up there, I have to wonder if you know what it means to be a Christian. Christ is a part of the Godhead, are u? If you have the same divinity as Christ, then why will you need Christ? After all you're equal in all respects? Christians are members of the body of Christ and they know they are not equal to the head of that body.

That's the lowest I could go, if u dnt get the difference from that sentence, I can't be of further assistance

My sympathies

Simple... but these folks i named knew...and when u done here on earth, God's gonna sent u ur return ticket.

Yeah and I agreed they did. Like most old folks 'know'

When Jesus was gisting with His disciples in the last supper, He was having premonitions abi?

Jesus is a part of the Godhead that took counsel since before the foundation of the world to send a redeemer, pls stop forgetting that part.

Very soon you'll try to walk on water to form one of the little 'jesuses'

When Jacob was rejecting Reuben etc he was having premonitions shey? Joshua too abi.?

How old were they at their various times of death? When did they 'know' the end had come? Did they decide the time of this end like you want us to believe?

So, in ur theory now, younger folks like Jesus' age have premonitions?

Once again, try and realise you're talking about Jesus who created the world, not Gombs who would die and become food for termites and rodents if the Lord (the same Jesus) tarries.

What of Paul?

Paul had to be told his purpose by Christ himself while Jesus Christ on the other hand was a member of the Godhead that decided the plan for redemption which he came to fulfill. Very big diffetence

Was that the first time he was in jail? Why didn't he write he has finished his course we he was dragged to jail the first time? How come he didn't knw death was hanging over him the first time?

He had always known and expected death. If you're involved in an activity at variance with the ideas of sadistic and despotic rulers, its to be expected. Its the same story even for political and human rights activists.

Nothing about deciding how or when to die. You might wish and pray to go in a certain way, but if God wills otherwise, there's nothing you can do

I laugh when i hear Christians talk about death premonition. This is a christians' thread, so i do not want to be much of a bete-noire.

My Christian neighbour did a thanksgiving ceremony in his church some years back. His testimony was that after boarding a flight, he got a "premonition" from God, that the flight was gonna crash. He withdrew from taking the flight and that craft eventually crashed, nobody survived.

Now, is this his alleged premonition from God?
And if it's from God, what kind of God is this? killing everybody on board and only my neighbour coincidentally missed it. I was happy for him though. But, i was marvelled at "why" he should be making a party out of it.

To be objective and honest. Nobody is worth more than the total number of people in an aircraft. If i was given such premonition, i'd rather sacrifice myself than allow everybody die.

I marvel at the level of illiteracy that is being passed around here.

Someone just claimed his brother was healed of HIV/AIDs.

Unfortunately, I'm not in the mood to give a comprehensive response on how the incidence is purely natural.

rationalmind: I marvel at the level of illiteracy that is being passed around here.

Someone just claimed his brother was healed of HIV/AIDs.

Unfortunately, I'm not in the mood to give a comprehensive response on how the incidence is purely natural.

hmmm

Umm candour, are u saying asides Jesus, the rest Bible heroes had premonitions about their deaths? Use the below picture as a point of reference. Thanks

Gombs: Umm candour are u saying asides Jesus, the rest Bible heroes had premonitions about their deaths? Use the below picture as a point of reference. Thanks

Jesus Christ didnt just know he was to die, He was/is a member of the Godhead that DECIDED he (Jesus) should come and die

Acts 2:22-23 KJV
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: [23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

God determined it even if the jews and romans who carried out the action didn't know and Jesus was a part of this decision making hence my reminder to you about who Jesus really is.

You are the one making outrageous claims which you can't prove that ALL HEROES IN SCRIPTURE DECIDED THEIR DEATHS. Old folks sense or have a premonition when death is near, why, even their failing limbs, dim eyes etc are warnings enough

Genesis 27:1-4 KJV
And it came to pass, that when Isaac was old, and his eyes were dim, so that he could not see, he called Esau his eldest son, and said unto him, My son: and he said unto him, Behold, here am I. [2] And he said, Behold now, I am old, I know not the day of my death: [3] Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison; [4] And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.

Isaac became old and blind. It was obvious to everybody that he was getting set to go the way of all mortals so he wisely decided to put his house in order. It wasnt his decision to die and he needed no special knowledge

Genesis 48:1 KJV
And it came to pass after these things, that one told Joseph, Behold, thy father is sick: and he took with him his two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.

When Jacob became old and sick, he commenced the blessings of his offspring starting with Joseph's children.

1 Kings 1:1 KJV
Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat.

All Isreal knew David was sick and the end was near. See Bathseba telling him to act before its too late

1 Kings 1:20-21 KJV
And thou, my lord, O king, the eyes of all Israel are upon thee, that thou shouldest tell them who shall sit on the throne of my lord the king after him. [21] Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

Immediately, the process for Solomon's enthronement was set in motion.

See Elisha. Even the king knew the time had come hence he went there to weep on the prophet's face. Read subsequent verses to get more.

2 Kings 13:14 KJV
Now Elisha was fallen sick of his sickness whereof he died. And Joash the king of Israel came down unto him, and wept over his face, and said, O my father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof.

Sorry it had to be this long.

Candour:
You are the one missing the point. Did you read my post and the one I quoted at all?? The issue I have is Gombs saying all saints in the bible DECIDED their deaths. Its not about them knowing or sensing their impending deaths.
My grand ma who died recently at a very ripe old age acted in some very strange ways and said some strange things the few weeks before she died that leaves us in no doubt that she must have had a premonition of her death. People regularly have premonitions about death etc but I'm not concerned with a premonition or a pre knowledge of death.
The issue here is anyone affirmiing all heroes of scriptute DECIDED their deaths. If you or him wish to expunge "decided their death" from the discussion, I'll rest my case here.

Premonitions exist. But it’s not about premonitions. Or even actual knowledge of impending death. It’s actual knowledge based on God’s will. Not referring to your grandma, but people – young or old - may have premonitions or actually know of the day they would die even when that death is not God’s will. Ask anybody deeply versed in the occult.

Without quibbling over words as to who decided, the key point is that God decided. But He also needs the cooperation of those people. That’s why He brings them into the picture. Or why do you think He tells them or lets them know – so they can throw a party? Jesus told Peter about his manner of death. But it’s up to Peter if he wanted that or not. He could have walked away on Jesus and died differently.

The key issue though is that people should not be rushing to death when God has not told them it’s their time. You want to dress that as accepting of death when the people you’re comparing them with actually knew from God it was their time. That’s a big difference.

alexleo:
I am not doubting your points but I have also seen people who got the best medical attention to a particular ailment yet they died of it while some other person suffering the same ailment and got a poor medical attention survived the same sickness.
There are christians who had engaged in serious prayer before embarking on a journey yet they died in accident and there are also some others that engaged in little or no prayer yet they survived even worse accidents.
There are christians that did fasting and prayer over a particular sickness yet they died while some others who just prayed normal prayer survived same sickness.
Some churches hold series of fasting and prayer weeks especially in the early part of the year. Part of the major prayer points in such services is prayer against death. Pastors make declarations too yet before the year runs out some of the people who prayed that prayer and shouted big Amen to pastors declarations still dies. This does not mean that prayers do not work but my point is that when your time is up you are going.
Like i said( pls mark my word, because thats what i ve been saying from the begining of my post here), WHEN YOUR TIME IS UP, anything can just be your own medium of exit.
Yea i know that satan always wants to kill and with prayers we can stop him from doing so but when your time is really up, you will go even after all the prayers.

You’re right that we can pray and people still die and some people live even when there was little prayer. But that does not mean that death came when it would come. We simply do not know unless God tells us. That person that died after long prayer perhaps could have lived if people had prayed a day longer. I heard recently about this guy who was prayed for in the hospital in Nigeria and he got well. He was discharged and sent home. The saints that prayed for him had stopped praying. Shortly, after the guy got home, he died. Somebody may say it was his time. But couldn’t it also be that the saints should have stayed in prayer until they secured in a note of victory in their spirit that the job was done?

Other than the cases of people that have a special assignment from God (which God would most probably tell them), God’s will for everybody is to live long. In Ps. 91, He tells us that He’ll satisfy us with long life, not premature death. In both the OT and NT, He tells us that if we honor our parents, we’ll live long. If His desire is not for us to live long, He does not need to tell us what to do to live long.

This eagerness to check out and go to Heaven is not encouraged by the Bible. When the early saints were being persecuted, they did not ask God to take them to Heaven. They sought His help to make it here on earth and fulfill His mandate. I am convinced that many deaths are preventable but for the lack of faith and lack of spiritual diligence of believers today. This point and one made earlier by somebody about “the receiving end” of faith and prayer reminded of a story from years ago that I read somewhere. A pastor’s wife was bedfast, dying of cancer as the doctors said there was nothing they could do for her. A minister and his wife, another pastor and his wife and the woman’s husband decided to pray for the woman. For two days and two nights they prayed, sleeping only for 4 hours a night and spending the rest of the time praying and seeking God. Nothing happened. The minister wondered why, considering that healing is something promised us, and asked God for guidance. It turned out the problem was not from the sending (God) side, but the receiving side. God told the minister to command the spirits of doubt and fear to come out of the woman. He did, the spirits left, and the woman was instantly healed. She danced around the house.

Now think of it, how many Christians would seek to hear from God in such circumstance? Not many, as many Christians have no idea how to hear from God. How many saints devote that much time to pray for a dying person? No, they spend 5 minutes of prayer while listening to cool Christian music in their car. Then, when the person dies, they say it’s nothing to cry about; after all, heaven is much better than here. All along, all they’re doing is excuse their own faith failure, while making themselves feel good that they’re not earthly-minded.

qstar: I laugh when i hear Christians talk about death premonition. This is a christians' thread, so i do not want to be much of a bete-noire.

My Christian neighbour did a thanksgiving ceremony in his church some years back. His testimony was that after boarding a flight, he got a "premonition" from God, that the flight was gonna crash. He withdrew from taking the flight and that craft eventually crashed, nobody survived.

Now, is this his alleged premonition from God?
And if it's from God, what kind of God is this? killing everybody on board and only my neighbour coincidentally missed it. I was happy for him though. But, i was marvelled at "why" he should be making a party out of it.

To be objective and honest. Nobody is worth more than the total number of people in an aircraft. If i was given such premonition, i'd rather sacrifice myself than allow everybody die.

Can you share with us how your neighbor could have sacrificed himself for the other passengers to live?

nlMediator:

Can you share with us how your neighbor could have sacrificed himself for the other passengers to live?

I do not wish him death.
I'm just inquisitive as to the "source" of the premonition.

@OP.. you should ask yourself.. have you used what God-given talents you have before expecting an answer from him.. it is like asking your teacher what is 1+1 when he knows you can count already ..

Hebrews 11:35King James Version (KJV)

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Some of the Disciples that some of you think just died anyhow have a different account to yours and I think we should do well to listen to them. They were "tortured" we agree, but they had a deliverance to accept yet they turned it down because they wanted a better resurrection and because the world wasn't worthy of them. Period.

If Paul didn't think he had finished his course he knew enough to resist his death. This is the same Paul that was confused between staying with the church or departing and being with Christ. If Peter didn't think it was his time to check out he would have had resisted it too. But they accepted it and that is the lesson for all of us.

A christian should give glory to God in every aspect of his life: Actions, words, life and even death. When a christian enters a plane on his way to preach in a place and dies in a crash he has not glorified God that way. Naysayers and Fearful skeptics A.K.A Atheists will mock him saying "why did so and so die like that?" If a Christian is bed-ridden with sickness and then dies in that state like Elisha did such a death doesn't glorify God. I understand that E.W Kenyon or so walked around telling everyone he knew that God had told him to come home. On that very day he sat on a rocking chair and said to his daughter "I told you Jesus was coming for me. There he is" and then he checked out. Even at the point of Dying, God's power over death was evident. What a way to go. There is another popular MOG in Nigeria whose father checked out the same way a few years back. He was praying with his wife in the morning but instead of re-echoing the words in the scripture he opened he said "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit". The wife was taken aback and kept advising him to change his confession and instead say "I shall live I shall not die, I shall declare the good works of the lord in the land of the living" but he refused and kept saying the same thing: "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit". The man knew that if he changed his confession he will get a different result so he stuck to it. After a while the wife ran to call the young man that stayed with them so that he could talk some sense into her husband. When the young man walked in, he saw the man already lying on his back. The man smiled and checked out. That is the way to go.

The message of faith has to be preached more accurately so that Christians will rule and dominate all the wiles of the devil- including death! It is only when the message is preached that Christians will take advantage of it afterall it is through Knowledge that the righteous is delivered (Proverbs 11:9)

nlMediator:

Premonitions exist. But it’s not about premonitions. Or even actual knowledge of impending death. It’s actual knowledge based on God’s will. Not referring to your grandma, but people – young or old - may have premonitions or actually know of the day they would die even when that death is not God’s will. Ask anybody deeply versed in the occult.

Good you agree premonitions exist. But in any case, my argument is not knowledge of death based on God's will. Moses was told and succumbed to that will. The bone of contention is the statement that "all heroes in scripture decided their deaths". Could Moses have decided against that particular decision of God? If you agree with statement in bold, prove it. If not, you and I have nothing to argue about.

Without quibbling over words as to who decided, the key point is that God decided.

@the bolded, that's all I need the OP to realise. GOD DECIDED.

But He also needs the cooperation of those people. That’s why He brings them into the picture. Or why do you think He tells them or lets them know – so they can throw a party? Jesus told Peter about his manner of death. But it’s up to Peter if he wanted that or not. He could have walked away on Jesus and died differently.

@the bolded, you think dying differently mattered so much to Peter when compared to eternity without Christ? We are discussing Peter the apostle, not Peter that could have been lost as an atheist.

Why do you think he told them? To enable them get a negotiator? He told them to prepare their minds. If Peter wanted to remain in God's will, he had no choice. Its as simple as that. He even had to ask the 12 at a particular time thus "will ye also go away?" What do you think their response was? (See John 6:60-69 to find out)

See what Christ told Ananias to tell Paul

Acts 9:15-16 KJV
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: [16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

If you were Paul, what would you do? Decide not to go ahead or pray against it?

The key issue though is that people should not be rushing to death when God has not told them it’s their time. You want to dress that as accepting of death when the people you’re comparing them with actually knew from God it was their time. That’s a big difference.

I don't know who is rushing to death here. If you know any, pls tell them to chill. I don't know what dressing you're insinuating but since God decides, and you agree God decides, then let it rest.

qstar:
I do not wish him death.
I'm just inquisitive as to the "source" of the premonition.

Being inquisitive is fine. And I did not say or suggest that you wished him dead. But you clearly said you'd have sacrificed yourself to allow other passengers escape death. How could you or anyone have accomplished that? You see, I'm inquisitive (too). So please share with us so we can learn and bear that in mind for the future.

Candour:
Good you agree premonitions exist. But in any case, my argument is not knowledge of death based on God's will. Moses was told and succumbed to that will. The bone of contention is the statement that "all heroes in scripture decided their deaths". Could Moses have decided against that particular decision of God? If you agree with statement in bold, prove it. If not, you and I have nothing to argue about.
@the bolded, that's all I need the OP to realise. GOD DECIDED.
@the bolded, you think dying differently mattered so much to Peter when compared to eternity without Christ? We are discussing Peter the apostle, not Peter that could have been lost as an atheist.
Why do you think he told them? To enable them get a negotiator? He told them to prepare their minds. If Peter wanted to remain in God's will, he had no choice. Its as simple as that. He even had to ask the 12 at a particular time thus "will ye also go away?" What do you think their response was? (See John 6:60-69 to find out)
See what Christ told Ananias to tell Paul
Acts 9:15-16 KJV
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: [16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
If you were Paul, what would you do? Decide not to go ahead or pray against it?
I don't know who is rushing to death here. If you know any, pls tell them to chill. I don't know what dressing you're insinuating but since God decides, and you agree God decides, then let it rest.

Sure, it’s God that decides. So long as you’re not saying that it’s God that decides for everybody when they’ll die and the manner of death. Because that’s not true. God decides in some specific situations, like Peter’s as part of his plan for them. He doesn’t decide in the case of the vast majority of people, including possibly the person in the OP. If He decided when everyone would die, what’s the point in telling them what to do to prolong their life? And even when it is according to his plan, like Peter’s, the Peters of this world are part of the ultimate decision in the sense that they have a choice in the matter. That Peter DID NOT walk away does not mean he COULD NOT. Our God, unlike the devil, respects human sovereignty and does not impose His will to override human wills. Otherwise, He’ll get everybody saved today, because His desire is that nobody should perish. So again, I do not understand your fixation with “it’s God that decides.”

mba emeka: [color=#990000]Hebrews 11:35King James Version (KJV)

The message of faith has to be preached more accurately so that Christians will rule and dominate all the wiles of the devil- including death! It is only when the message is preached that Christians will take advantage of it afterall it is through Knowledge that the righteous is delivered (Proverbs 11:9)

You're so correct about deliverance coming through knowledge. God uses different methods to set and make people free, including knowledge, prophets and prayers. People can be healed or delivered without even praying at all! In some cases, all they need is acquire the relevant knowledge of God for their situation. Jesus was obviously right when He said in John 8:32 that knowledge of the truth makes one free. I've had personal experiences where I was freed of something as soon as knowledge came - before I could even pray or think of it.

nlMediator:

Sure, it’s God that decides. So long as you’re not saying that it’s God that decides for everybody when they’ll die and the manner of death. Because that’s not true. God decides in some specific situations, like Peter’s as part of his plan for them. He doesn’t decide in the case of the vast majority of people, including possibly the person in the OP. If He decided when everyone would die, what’s the point in telling them what to do to prolong their life? And even when it is according to his plan, like Peter’s, the Peters of this world are part of the ultimate decision in the sense that they have a choice in the matter. Our God, unlike the devil, respects human sovereignty and does not impose His will to override human wills. Otherwise, He’ll get everybody saved today, because His desire is that nobody should perish. So again, I do not understand your fixation with “it’s God that decides.”

The title of this thread "should I be disappointed in God, when it looks as though he doesn't answer prayers" presupposes we are talking about Christians so I ask "what could Peter have done differently to change the information Christ gave him without jeopardising his eternity?" What choice (as an apostle of Christ who wished for eternity with Christ) did he have in the matter?

Once again, thank God you agree God decides. Also you don't need to understand my fixation with that statement. However I'll keep repeating it as many times as it takes to correct the wrong notion that "all heroes of scripture decided their deaths"

Gombs: Question – Joyce (Australia): My sister was
diagnosed with a hole in her heart. Both she
and I prayed, and believed God for a miracle and
we did everything we knew to do, but she died.
I’m so disappointed with God. My faith is totally
shaken, and I’m at my lowest point since she
passed on. I’m not able to pray any more. Why
did God not answer our prayers?

The arguments that ensue out of issues such as the aformentioned are usually great and that's because this issue is an everyday one, with death and disaster everywhere. While i'd love to posit my position,I would not claim to provide a immutable answer to Joyce's question.

My answer is summed in three verses of scripture.

The Holy Ghost states in:
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

This was young Elihu's response to Job, who lamented as Joyce did and asked as Joyce did, 'why did I suffer all these and God sat up there and never came to my aid even when i'm such a righteous man'. Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar all gave wisdom but couldn't provide an answer to Job. Elihu however though young spoke by God's inspiration and made us understand that God can never do wrong, he won't break his rules, he won't be unjust and won't be evil. His thoughts towards us are of peace and not evil to give us an expected end.

# point 1
God is always just,it is man that is either ignorant or unjust.

The Holy Ghost states again:
Proverbs 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

Job had no revelation concerning the cause and purpose of his suffering and neither did his three old and experienced friends and that's why they all perverted wisdom. If Job had known that his suffering was as a result of God's veneration of him, he'd gladly lose all including his life just to defend his love for God. Joyce has no revelational knowledge concerning her sister's death and that's why she charges God so. If she has, she'd apologize, be sober and be deeper in the things of God.

#point 2
Make no decisions, say no words and entertain no thoughts until you've sought God's revelation when the darkness of adversity looms.

The Holy Ghost states further:
2Corinthians 8:2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

Sister Joyce, this world is the University of Adversity for all of God's children. Trials, temptations, afflictions and sufferings all point the way to God oftentimes.

The church of Smyrna was poor but yet they got a pass mark from Jesus who further admonished them to endure tribulations ten days and be faithful till the death and on the other side of the divide was the church of Laodicea so rich but failed by Jesus' standards.

# point 3
The way to peace is in tribulation and the way to joy is in affliction. It is for this purpose that 'ENDURANCE' is a fruit of the spirit.

Beloved Joyce and anyone in her shoes, don't fall for satan's trick. He did it with Job and he's doing it to all mankind. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. With his truth you'll know the way, with his life, you'll be able to walk the way till you get to the fullness of perfection.

In summary, I admonish that: God is always just so don't lose faith, seek the truth from God alone and walk in the light of it and be prepared to endure the hardship of this 'crazy' world.

I know of three pillars you must not lose: FAITH, HOPE and LOVE! Stand on them always. Even till the death and you'd beat satan in a flawless victory.

Candour:
The title of this thread "should I be disappointed in God, when it looks as though he doesn't answer prayers" presupposes we are talking about Christians so I ask "what could Peter have done differently to change the information Christ gave him without jeopardising his eternity?" What choice (as an apostle of Christ who wished for eternity with Christ) did he have in the matter?
Once again, thank God you agree God decides. Also you don't need to understand my fixation with that statement. However I'll keep repeating it as many times as it takes to correct the wrong notion that "all heroes of scripture decided their deaths"

Peter's eternity would not have been jeopardized. While I'd not dare encourage anybody to walk away from God's plan for them, doing so does not doom people to hell. There's only one reason for going to hell or jeopardizing eternity: rejection of Jesus as Savior. I thought you're part of the eternal security crew here? Suddenly, you now believe that a saved person can lose his salvation?

Yes, in a sense they decided their deaths because they cooperated with God's plan. God did not do it without them. God did not just decide and let it happen to them.

One thing am sure of,is that God's way is the best way. It dosnt really matter how it looks now. I alwys have this mentality so when I pray and believe God and things don't work out according to my plan(where as God has a better plan which I can not see yet)I just believe it is for a greater glory.


Finally I think it just lies in trusting God even if I loose my parent,my brothers,my sisters.....nothing/no one can take my trust away from God. It is so simple

nlMediator:

Peter's eternity would not have been jeopardized. While I'd not dare encourage anybody to walk away from God's plan for them, doing so does not doom people to hell. There's only one reason for going to hell or jeopardizing eternity: rejection of Jesus as Savior. I thought you're part of the eternal security crew here? Suddenly, you now believe that a saved person can lose his salvation?

If there's such a crew, then you must be a high ranking member.

You don't know my views on eternal security of the believer so I'll tell you. See the scripture I believe holds the full gospel message. See the clause in bold

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I know Peter didn't believe in vain because he stayed the course till his martyrdom. There is no way Peter could have believed in Christ and rejected that particular information because it wasn't open for debate. Christ wasn't seeking his opinion. Christ was simply pre informing him of what the future held for him as a Christian. If he left, it means he stopped believing in Christ. If he stopped believing, it means he believed in vain initially and stood disqualified. If it was open for negotiation, why didn't Christ inform the others about theirs too so they could decide to do or not to do? See what John, who was standing by when Christ gave Peter this information, wrote

1 John 2:19 KJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out , that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Also, Have you read "Foxes' book of martyrs"? If you've not, try and do. A lot of 'ordinary' Christians suffered more and died more horrible deaths than Peter. Being a Christian at that time came with terrible perils and everyone of them knew what they signed unto. He would not/could not have walked away and remained the Peter we talk about today.

Yes, in a sense they decided their deaths because they cooperated with God's plan. God did not do it without them. God did not just decide and let it happen to them.

Really?? You mean Moses could have refused to die on the mountain and simply pick up his staff and walk far away from God? Would the refusal have resulted in a struggle between God and Moses?? Was there any record of God consulting Moses before deciding Moses would die on the mountain?

Sorry folks...would respond on this thread after service

Ranchhoddas: hmmm

check it out bro

https://www.nairaland.com/1801110/how-god-cures-hiv-aids

Which brings us back to the issue of Hezekiah. If Hezekiah had just accepted God's will for his life and died when God asked him to some of you would have had a case to refer to. But no, he refused to die and God let him have it his way (even though the extra years he spent on earth were miserable).

Gombs and Nlmediator are correct. When it comes to God's kids (like the Heroes in the bible) they all had their say. Several times Paul was destined to be killed but he resisted it all the time. When the end of his course had come, like his master Jesus he declared that it was time and he checked out. It was not a mystery neither was it some random unseen event. They decided it by accepting it. Take a cursory look at Stephen and advise yourself.

mba emeka: Hebrews 11:35King James Version (KJV)

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Some of the Disciples that some of you think just died anyhow have a different account to yours and I think we should do well to listen to them. They were "tortured" we agree, but they had a deliverance to accept yet they turned it down because they wanted a better resurrection and because the world wasn't worthy of them. Period.

If Paul didn't think he had finished his course he knew enough to resist his death. This is the same Paul that was confused between staying with the church or departing and being with Christ. If Peter didn't think it was his time to check out he would have had resisted it too. But they accepted it and that is the lesson for all of us.

A christian should give glory to God in every aspect of his life: Actions, words, life and even death. When a christian enters a plane on his way to preach in a place and dies in a crash he has not glorified God that way. Naysayers and Fearful skeptics A.K.A Atheists will mock him saying "why did so and so die like that?" If a Christian is bed-ridden with sickness and then dies in that state like Elisha did such a death doesn't glorify God. I understand that E.W Kenyon or so walked around telling everyone he knew that God had told him to come home. On that very day he sat on a rocking chair and said to his daughter "I told you Jesus was coming for me. There he is" and then he checked out. Even at the point of Dying, God's power over death was evident. What a way to go. There is another popular MOG in Nigeria whose father checked out the same way a few years back. He was praying with his wife in the morning but instead of re-echoing the words in the scripture he opened he said "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit". The wife was taken aback and kept advising him to change his confession and instead say "I shall live I shall not die, I shall declare the good works of the lord in the land of the living" but he refused and kept saying the same thing: "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit". The man knew that if he changed his confession he will get a different result so he stuck to it. After a while the wife ran to call the young man that stayed with them so that he could talk some sense into her husband. When the young man walked in, he saw the man already lying on his back. The man smiled and checked out. That is the way to go.

The message of faith has to be preached more accurately so that Christians will rule and dominate all the wiles of the devil- including death! It is only when the message is preached that Christians will take advantage of it afterall it is through Knowledge that the righteous is delivered (Proverbs 11:9)

Very apt reply... the rejected deliverance, and gave up their lives willingly, death not snatching them away, they were above desth n it's forces...it was like it was with Jesus, a lamb willingly going to the slaughterhouse.

What candour is circling around, is not because he doesn't understand what the op is saying, he knows, but as usual, he wants to drag the page into unwated numbers. I asked him a short but precise kweshun which he failed woefully to answer... i asked him according to him, asides Jesus, the rest Bible heroes had premonitions about their deaths? He wrote an epistle and didn’t answer the question. If ghey had premonitions like he claimed his grandmother had, it then means thst since even atheists could have premonitions, then the Christian then is a huge waste of time due to the fact that an atheist or muslim or Hindus etc can have premonitions just as Bible heroes did

God said he wanted every body to see the difference between the hebrews and the egyptians, why? Because there is ALWAYS a difference between those who serve God and those who doesn't. A Christian should not check out of here like the natural man does, why? Because ALL the Christian does is by far different from what the natural man or any man outside Christ does, even death.

So, I'd let him hold on to semantics of decide or decide not... Jesus said no one can take His life from Him, He decides to lay his life and take it whenever he pleases, why? I'd show Candour
John 10:18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


The underlined is the reason why the heroes of Bible days n the new creation should not be snatched by death, and declare like Jesus, no man takes their lives away from them, they decide when it's time to check out...Time the Father has ordained.

Interesting argument, i am on the same page with mba,gombs and Nlmediator here.

You will be doing great injustice to scripture concerning the Hezekiah story if you claim he never DECIDED whether he will live or die.

There is a permissive will and a perfect will. Hezekiah's case was permissive. God permitted it and 15 years was added.

We under the new convenant based on better promises have the more sure word of prophecy that is God's will for our lives. His will is clearly spelt out in His word.

Anything contrary to his will maybe permissive and that is why when most christian fall sick they may attribute it to the will of God which is wrong and erroneous.

2 Kings 20:1 KJV
In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord , Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.

Hezekiah fell sick like any man born of a woman would and the sickness was leading to death...

2 Kings 20:2-3 KJV
Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord , saying, [3] I beseech thee, O Lord , remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

Hezekiah beseeched God. To beseech someone is to beg someone to do something. Hezekiah begged God to extend his life because he knew ONLY COULD DECIDE WHETHER HE LIVED OR DIED. Not only did he beg God, my bible confirmed that HE WEPT SORE. This is not the action of a man who felt he was entitled to having his wish met. He knew all he could ask for was mercy. He was the king but he knew better than to ascribe a power he didn't have to himself.

2 Kings 20:4-5 KJV
And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, [5] Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the Lord , the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord.

God said he had seen Hezekiah's tears and had DECIDED TO HEAL him. The decision to beg was Hezekiah's but the decision to answer and heal was solely God's prerogative. If he didn't accede to the request like he didn't to Paul's request and pleas, which court or power would Hezekiah have appealed to?

2 Kings 20:6 KJV
And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

Whose decision was it to add 15 years? Yea you guessed right..God's. It is God that decided Hezekiah would spend another 15 years on earth. Hezekiah had no decision to make on it.

This Hezekiah's case is similar to Epaphroditus' case

Philippians 2:27 KJV
For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

Despite Paul's anointing and apostleship, he knew its only God's mercy that kept his friend from probable death.

You can make all the decisions you want, but GOD has the final say. He holds the final decision that counts.

^^
Was God mistaken when He sent Isaiah to Hezekiah?
See, God passed a judgement on Hezekiah, Hezekiah pleaded his case, using faith and activating God's principles, and it worked, cos God can't break His Word and principles...
Isaiah 41:21
Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob.


That's God’s principles, Isaiah wrote it, same Isaiah whomwent to Hezekiah, however, Hezekiah activated that principle in faith, God had to respond, But note, the man refused to die, he rejected death sentence by pleading his case.

That is in no way answer to my question
asides Jesus, did the rest Bible heroes had premonitions about their deaths?
Note, atheists or muslims etc could have premonitions, if they could, what then is the basis of the deaths of these Heroes? Are the natural man's way of death same as the man in God?

@Gombs, you've taken the liberty to arrive at the conclusion you feel is correct from my posts so I'll take the liberty to do same to yours.

Your intention was to further your belief that you're equal to Jesus since he called us brethren and can do exactly as he did. This was to help you further your 'godhood' theory. You've boxed yourself into a corner and you've suddenly remembered to put the bold in the quote below

Gombs:
....... they decide when it's time to check out...Time the Father has ordained.

Anyway, thank God for his mercies.

Time the father has ordained=God decides the time.

I don't think this should be hard to realise.


Also, you've quoted verse 18 of the scripture below at least twice on this thread

John 10:17-18 KJV
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. [18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Do you really believe the above applies to Christians? You really believe you can decide to lay down your life and decide to pick it up again like Christ? Is there anything that you believe is exclusively unique to Christ or you think you can do Everything and can make every claim that Christ made? Where exactly is the boundary between your rights, powers, privileges and that of Christ?

Like I've always maintained, you and I and in fact all contributors reserve the right to change or stick to our positions. However, genuine seekers of truth will access this thread now or much later in the future and will be able to find it as they sieve through.

Cheers.

Gombs: ^^
Was God mistaken when He sent Isaiah to Hezekiah?
See, God passed a judgement on Hezekiah, Hezekiah pleaded his case, using faith and activating God's principles, and it worked, cos God can't break His Word and principles...
Isaiah 41:21
Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob.


That's God’s principles, Isaiah wrote it, same Isaiah whomwent to Hezekiah, however, Hezekiah activated that principle in faith, God had to respond, But note, the man refused to die, he rejected death sentence by pleading his case.

That is in no way answer to my question
asides Jesus, did the rest Bible heroes had premonitions about their deaths?
Note, atheists or muslims etc could have premonitions, if they could, what then is the basis of the deaths of these Heroes? Are the natural man's way of death same as the man in God?

See what Hezekiah did

2 Kings 20:2-3 KJV
Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord , saying, [3] I beseech thee, O Lord , remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

Surely Hezekiah knew better than to engage in the braggadocio on display here.

Did Hezekiah decide the additional years or he begged God, Weep sorely and plead for mercy before God granted his request or not?

Did God let him have his way or he decided to show mercy?

Candour:

[s]See what Hezekiah did

2 Kings 20:2-3 KJV
Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord , saying, [3] I beseech thee, O Lord , remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

Surely Hezekiah knew better than to engage in the braggadocio on display here.

Did Hezekiah decide the additional years or he begged God, Weep sorely and plead for mercy before God granted his request or not?

Did God let him have his way or he decided to show mercy?[/s]

Keep circling, when you done, answer this

asides Jesus, did the rest Bible heroes had premonitions about their deaths?

Cheers