lastmessenger:
Really?is not news that some information found in wikipedia are false.why should i go to internet to prove my point for you when the bible is there to show where and how the first church started.

REALLY!!! THE SAME BIBLE THAT WAS COMPILED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH YOU SO MUCH DESPISE!!!!HOW ARE YOU SURE MATTEW,MARK,LUKEN OR JOHN WROTE ANY GOSPELS? DID YOU SEE THEIR NAMES IN THOSE ANONYMOUS SCRIPTURES?

chukwudi44:

REALLY!!! THE SAME BIBLE THAT WAS COMPILED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH YOU SO MUCH DESPISE!!!!HOW ARE YOU SURE MATTEW,MARK,LUKEN OR JOHN WROTE ANY GOSPELS? DID YOU SEE THEIR NAMES IN THOSE ANONYMOUS SCRIPTURES?

Another lie that go around that the catholic compiled the bible.how can you compile a book that go contrary to the beliefs,doctrines and practices of the catholics church?there is no proof that the group of men that compiled the bible are catholics.atleast they cant be members of the same catholic church headquarterd in Rome.
By the way peter is never a pope as you guys claimed.the pope that we know today that is not subject to human authority meanwhile paul confronted peter(your so called pope) when he joined in discriminating against Gentiles.
Let me say exactly what i know about the catholic church.when the church in Jerusalem faced persecution,the church was scattered,then came the Dark age(there was no church) after the Romans destroyed the temple in Jerusalem and carried away the Jews as prisoners.the church was left without root.
Then the Romans wanted to make Christainity as a state religion,that was how the Roman catholic came to be.
Other churches(penticostal,prostestant) in the world may have come as an offshoot of the then catholic church.this happened because the catholic church derailed from the original truth as practiced by the early church in Jerusalem and as found in the bible.

PastorOluT:

This is funny, asking me to provide dates n time to all these well known facts? Anyways ow I got to know them is not hearsay bt what I read myself over the years, i have read different write ups over the years bt would mention the few I remembered. The foxes book of martyrs among many others, bt as for the acts of the papacy, got info from many different places even online.

Bt wait are u arguing that these things never took place during the dark years? Even the catholic church never denied it 'cos its an open fact what was done during those period n no one wants to go into that.

Coming to the present about the veneration of saints, Mary, n statues, I am confused what evidence u need here 'cos everyone sees this. Even in some faithful houses u find all sort of statues which they bow to n kiss. Or is it the prayer? 'oh Mary mother of God pray for us sinners' does this not clearly negate the scriptures? Yet millions of adherents make this prayer daily. Does the bible not expressly say we have only one mediator which is Christ Jesus?

So u want proofs as to exactly when all these started, I tell u d truth, I don't know when exactly bt I sure know they are. Even if u counterclaim yesteryears events, what about what is happening now that I have listed?

Who knows maybe if Christ tarries n u die someday u will be venerated n people will ask u pray for them sinners? 'cos as it were anyone can become a saint.

1. When you say the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed, you agree it was founded by Jesus Christ?

You did not answer this question. Please do so in the spirit of sincerity.

2. You claim the Church was good until the Papacy ruined it. When did this happen? Give us a date or a timeframe at least...and tell us where you got the information from.

You said you got this from several places online. Pls show us these sources and when they say the Papacy went bad.

3. Are you serious and sincere when you say "anyone" against the papacy was burned? If you are, please give us the date the papacy went bad and I will provide evidence that what you said is false.

Please show us evidence that everyone against the papacy was burned if you are sincere.

4. You said idolatry came in with veneration of saints. Give us the date when this came in.

Veneration of Saints was before the Church compiled the Bible. So if veneration of Saints came from an evil or erroneous Church, the Bible also did. How then can the Bible be trusted?

5. where did you learn that Mary and statues take God's place...and who told you that prayers must pass through Mary to be legitimate and that she became more important than Christ to the Catholic Church? Pls tell us where the Catholic Church teaches that?

You still can't answer these.

6. You said "The bible no longer became the final authority." Please tell us the date the bible came about, who brought about it, and when was the Bible ever the final authority?

Please answer this if you are sincere.

ByfireByfire:
Yes Mr Arguementator.Let the arguement begin.Sincerity my foot.I wouldn't waste my time if I were pastor Olu.We are on another "repeat" while this section is filled with it.

These thread is not necessarily for everyone.

I opened it because PastorOluT claimed he was sincere.

I just want to see him answer questions sincerely.

You dont have to be scared.

PastorOluT:

No don't get me wrong, what I meant by the first church was that it was the only available church after the first century church that was started by d Apostles in the book of Acts.

It even surprised me ow it all phased out n came into one as they were many as at the time of creation? Well I believe there is so much to history that isn't recorded.

How many Churches did Jesus found...one or many?

Is it the Church Jesus founded that turned into the Catholic Church...

Or the Church Jesus founded is the Catholic Church?

lastmessenger:
Another lie that go around that the catholic compiled the bible.how can you compile a book that go contrary to the beliefs,doctrines and practices of the catholics church?there is no proof that the group of men that compiled the bible are catholics.atleast they cant be members of the same catholic church headquarterd in Rome.
By the way peter is never a pope as you guys claimed.the pope that we know today that is not subject to human authority meanwhile paul confronted peter(your so called pope) when he joined in discriminating against Gentiles.
Let me say exactly what i know about the catholic church.when the church in Jerusalem faced persecution,the church was scattered,then came the Dark age(there was no church) after the Romans destroyed the temple in Jerusalem and carried away the Jews as prisoners.the church was left without root.
Then the Romans wanted to make Christainity as a state religion,that was how the Roman catholic came to be.
Other churches(penticostal,prostestant) in the world may have come as an offshoot of the then catholic church.this happened because the catholic church derailed from the original truth as practiced by the early church in Jerusalem and as found in the bible.

Your arguments are just too childish and I think its high time I started ignoring you!! You just make stupid claims without anything whatsorever to substantiate them!!! Just keep recyclying stories you heard in your village without recourse to historical facts.Smh for you

People keep forming they can teach us church history while their brains and posts are completely void of the slightest historic fact. Smh

They want us to believe the stories they heard from their village beer parlours

SalC: People keep forming they can teach us church history while their brains and posts are completely void of the slightest historic fact. Smh

They want us to believe the stories they heard from their village beer parlours

That dude could not even adduce anything to back up his clams.Alll he does is just to hit at his keypad and anything that comes out should be beleived

italo:

1. When you say the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed, you agree it was founded by Jesus Christ?

You did not answer this question. Please do so in the spirit of sincerity.

2. You claim the Church was good until the Papacy ruined it. When did this happen? Give us a date or a timeframe at least...and tell us where you got the information from.

You said you got this from several places online. Pls show us these sources and when they say the Papacy went bad.

3. Are you serious and sincere when you say "anyone" against the papacy was burned? If you are, please give us the date the papacy went bad and I will provide evidence that what you said is false.

Please show us evidence that everyone against the papacy was burned if you are sincere.

4. You said idolatry came in with veneration of saints. Give us the date when this came in.

Veneration of Saints was before the Church compiled the Bible. So if veneration of Saints came from an evil or erroneous Church, the Bible also did. How then can the Bible be trusted?

5. where did you learn that Mary and statues take God's place...and who told you that prayers must pass through Mary to be legitimate and that she became more important than Christ to the Catholic Church? Pls tell us where the Catholic Church teaches that?

You still can't answer these.

6. You said "The bible no longer became the final authority." Please tell us the date the bible came about, who brought about it, and when was the Bible ever the final authority?

Please answer this if you are sincere.

I will answer u accordingly by answering each questions numbering them as u did.

1. Don't get it twisted, someone only named the whole church founded by Jesus catholic, it could have been saints, brethren or whatever bt they chose Catholic n it sticked. I believe u know what catholic means? Universal-all encompassing.

2. Hope this won't be a vicious circle as someone said, i tot i told u i can provide dates bt gave ow i came to know?

3,4,5,6. Repetitions, all in d name i should produce evidences n dates? Smile, i believe I see what is happening around as well as millions of people, this is where i got to know d doctrines.

NB To make this easy n letting go of all the endless repetitions n going around in a circle while u seek evidence as a detective, lets look at the present, I believe I will be able to provide a whole lot of evidences u seek.

PastorOluT:

I will answer u accordingly by answering each questions numbering them as u did.

1. Don't get it twisted, someone only named the whole church founded by Jesus catholic, it could have been saints, brethren or whatever bt they chose Catholic n it sticked. I believe u know what catholic means? Universal-all encompassing.

2. Hope this won't be a vicious circle as someone said, i tot i told u i can provide dates bt gave ow i came to know?

3,4,5,6. Repetitions, all in d name i should produce evidences n dates? Smile, i believe I see what is happening around as well as millions of people, this is where i got to know d doctrines.

NB To make this easy n letting go of all the endless repetitions n going around in a circle while u seek evidence as a detective, lets look at the present, I believe I will be able to provide a whole lot of evidences u seek.

1. If the Catholic Church is the one Jesus founded, why are you not a part of it?

2. Show us the online sources you claimed told you:

A. The Catholic Church was fine until the Papacy ruined it.

B. Everyone against the papacy was burned

C. Mary and statues took God's place...prayers must pass through Mary to be legitimate and that she became more important than Christ to the Catholic Church

3. Veneration of Saints was before the Church compiled the Bible. So if veneration of Saints came from an evil or erroneous Church, the Bible also did. How then can the Bible be trusted?

4. You said "The bible no longer became the final authority." Please tell us when was the Bible ever the final authority?

5. If neither you nor your so-called sources can say when these things came in, isn't it proof that you are insincere and have something to hide?

It is so bad that you and your sources cannot even say when the Bible came about. How then can you hold it as a final authority?

Aren't you just telling lies? Isnt that why you cant provide any sort of proof whatsoever?

chukwudi44:

Your arguments are just too childish and I think its high time I started ignoring you!! You just make stupid claims without anything whatsorever to substantiate them!!! Just keep recyclying stories you heard in your village without recourse to historical facts.Smh for you

The reason why you refused to see reasons is because you have been brainwashed all your life by the fathers in your catholic church.i have evidences to substantiate my claim.

lastmessenger:
The reason why you refused to see reasons is because you have been brainwashed all your life by the fathers in your catholic church.i have evidences to substantiate my claim.

bros dont you have any iota of shame inside you? you have been making claims without recourse to historical facts yet you claim i have been brainwashed.if you have evidences to substantiate your claims what is stopping you from presenting it?


what you peeps dont realise is that christian and secular historians has been writing books right from the first century of christianity.We have records of what tranpired in ancient christianity right from the sources themselves and not a any village beer palour gist.The apostolic fahers who met the apostles here on this earth and their successors left us records of some of the events that transpired in their time.It is too late for anyone to attempt to change history.

The writings of SS polycarp of smyrna,Ignatius of Antioch,Clement of rome,Ireneaus of lyons,Justin matyr,Tertullian and a host of other church fathers long before the bible was canonised laid the foundation for our chritian faith.

If you claim the early church was not catholic , hope you dont mind naming some members of your so-called church of christ who lived in these early tmes

Please, can someone explain this Polycarp was burned at the stake for refusing to burn incense to the Roman Emperor.

yemibayo: Please, can someone explain this Polycarp was burned at the stake for refusing to burn incense to the Roman Emperor.

Polycarp was a disciple of the apostle John,he was privileged to have seen and conversed with the apostles.His last assignment was been bishop of the church of smyrna in today's turkey.He alongside st ignatius of antioch and clement of rome who were equally matyred are called the apostolic fathers of the church.

PastorOluT:

I will answer u accordingly by answering each questions numbering them as u did.

1. Don't get it twisted, someone only named the whole church founded by Jesus catholic, it could have been saints, brethren or whatever bt they chose Catholic n it sticked. I believe u know what catholic means? Universal-all encompassing.

2. Hope this won't be a vicious circle as someone said, i tot i told u i can provide dates bt gave ow i came to know?

3,4,5,6. Repetitions, all in d name i should produce evidences n dates? Smile, i believe I see what is happening around as well as millions of people, this is where i got to know d doctrines.

NB To make this easy n letting go of all the endless repetitions n going around in a circle while u seek evidence as a detective, lets look at the present, I believe I will be able to provide a whole lot of evidences u seek.

Olboy, Ansa na!!! If you want to avoid vicious circle then all you have to do is ansa. The circle will stop. It's when you start dancing and he keeps trying to get a straight ansa from you, thats when the circling starts.

PastorAIO:

Olboy, Ansa na!!! If you want to avoid vicious circle then all you have to do is ansa. The circle will stop. It's when you start dancing and he keeps trying to get a straight ansa from you, thats when the circling starts.

Me sef I tireooo.people just keep recyclying village beer palour gists without any recourse to historical facts

Ubenedictus:

i think the exact opposite. If you are sincere you will answer the question. If the catholic church is a direct extension of the apostolic church as i think pastor olu says, then it is only right he show us exactly when the church diverge from teaching the gospel.


I'm sure he can tell italo about the dark ages untill italo is blue in the face but the truth s that exactly the gospel preached before the dark ages were the same thing taught after the dark ages. The christian doctrines never changed. If you think they changed then the onus is on you to show us when or give us a time frame of when it occured.

This isn't the time to make sentimental arguement like you did above.

You want him to tell you what you already know. am jst sorry for you guys. its ur life tho.

PastorAIO:

Olboy, Ansa na!!! If you want to avoid vicious circle then all you have to do is ansa. The circle will stop. It's when you start dancing and he keeps trying to get a straight ansa from you, thats when the circling starts.

You think the circle will stop? lol. this discussion is purely circular.

Italo wil keep shooting the arrow until Pastorolut gives up, then he will use it against him. nothing sincere is intended. I mean if u can read the 'handwriting....'

PastorAIO:

Olboy, Ansa na!!! If you want to avoid vicious circle then all you have to do is ansa. The circle will stop. It's when you start dancing and he keeps trying to get a straight ansa from you, thats when the circling starts.

He said he is sincere.

What kind of sincere person dreads simple questions?

JMAN05:

You think the circle will stop? lol. this discussion is purely circular.

Italo wil keep shooting the arrow until Pastorolut gives up, then he will use it against him. nothing sincere is intended. I mean if u can read the 'handwriting....'

No need to be scared. I'm not shooting you to death.

I'm just asking harmless questions.

JMAN05:

You think the circle will stop? lol. this discussion is purely circular.

Italo wil keep shooting the arrow until Pastorolut gives up, then he will use it against him. nothing sincere is intended. I mean if u can read the 'handwriting....'

Yes the circle will stop. It hasn't even started yet. It just wants to begin to start. It has been going in a straight line thus far, nevermind the distractions from people (like us) jumping in and adding irrelevant jara.

I find it curious that you would use the metaphor of 'shooting arrows' to describe his questions. Are you feeling assaulted by the questions? Two people are discussing a matter that they have dragged here from another thread. Did they not agree to have this discussion? Who then is shooting arrows and who is getting struck by arrows?

PastorAIO:

Yes the circle will stop. It hasn't even started yet. It just wants to begin to start. It has been going in a straight line thus far, nevermind the distractions from people (like us) jumping in and adding irrelevant jara.

I find it curious that you would use the metaphor of 'shooting arrows' to describe his questions. Are you feeling assaulted by the questions? Two people are discussing a matter that they have dragged here from another thread. Did they not agree to have this discussion? Who then is shooting arrows and who is getting struck by arrows?

I mean if you can read the 'handwriting...'

JMAN05:

I mean if you can read the 'handwriting...'

Can you please leave your handwriting reading and let them continue their discussion?

Are u for real? Dint u all see what I wrote about catholic church meaning Universal-all emcompassing. Did he say anything concerning that? seeking date n time to history.

I even suggested we should look at the practices now n forget about history. Now lets take it one question at a time.

Lets look at the word Catholic n the intention of naming it then.

PastorAIO:

Yes the circle will stop. It hasn't even started yet. It just wants to begin to start. It has been going in a straight line thus far, nevermind the distractions from people (like us) jumping in and adding irrelevant jara.

I find it curious that you would use the metaphor of 'shooting arrows' to describe his questions. Are you feeling assaulted by the questions? Two people are discussing a matter that they have dragged here from another thread. Did they not agree to have this discussion? Who then is shooting arrows and who is getting struck by arrows?

it seems no one wants to answer the question.

No one is interested in discussing the claims of protestanism from a historical point of view.

Let me wait maybe someone will decide to answer the question.

PastorOluT: Are u for real? Dint u all see what I wrote about catholic church meaning Universal-all emcompassing. Did he say anything concerning that? seeking date n time to history.

I even suggested we should look at the practices now n forget about history. Now lets take it one question at a time.

Lets look at the word Catholic n the intention of naming it then.

it is simple, if we don't understand the past then we will not understand the present.

The practices you are talking about all started in the past! If we can't discuss on the past then the present will not make sense to you.

That is why the question is very important, when did the church turn bad?

When did all her teachings and doctrines and practices become "wrong"?

If we can't see where exactly the church became bad then it is legitimately argued that the teachings and doctrine and practices are never bad.

So we are back to the question, when did the church become bad?

If you answer that we can all move on.

Ubenedictus:


it seems no one wants to answer the question.

No one is interested in discussing the claims of protestanism from a historical point of view.

Let me wait maybe someone will decide to answer the question.

the question is not for everyone.

JMAN05:

the question is not for everyone.

i'm sure italo wouldn't mind if you answered the question.

Ubenedictus:

it is simple, if we don't understand the past then we will not understand the present.

The practices you are talking about all started in the past! If we can't discuss on the past then the present will not make sense to you.

That is why the question is very important, when did the church turn bad?

When did all her teachings and doctrines and practices become "wrong"?

If we can't see where exactly the church became bad then it is legitimately argued that the teachings and doctrine and practices are never bad.

So we are back to the question, when did the church become bad?

If you answer that we can all move on.

Its still the same arguement, u seek time n date it evenatually derailed which can never be given 'cos it crept in gradually. But going by ur rationale that is using the past to better understand the future, we go further to the time of the scripture which is undeniable (to us who believe anyways).

In the bible times (which is d past u seek) things were done differently from the way roman catholic churches worship. So ow is that for history?

PastorOluT:

Its still the same arguement, u seek time n date it evenatually derailed which can never be given 'cos it crept in gradually. But going by ur rationale that is using the past to better understand the future, we go further to the time of the scripture which is undeniable (to us who believe anyways).

In the bible times (which is d past u seek) things were done differently from the way roman catholic churches worship. So ow is that for history?

My guy, even if things crept into the church gradually there will be a time when it is ratified. Usually at some church council or the other.

For example, the doctrine of Trinity. We all know that not every christian accepted it and it was only ratified at, I believe though I could be wrong, the Council of Nicea. That was when it was declared that anyone that didn't accept it couldn't call themselves a christian (that was in the 4th century, about 300 years after christianity started). Please if I'm wrong feel free to correct me, my memory of the case is kinda foggy at the moment.

It seems to me that the only thing derailing this thread at the moment is your refusal to answer the questions. This is going on to one whole page of the thread now. A matter that should only take 2 posts.


Can I just make one last question/point? Can anyone please tell me what they understand by this passage in the bible. If the answer is going to be long and derail the thread then don't bother but if you can do a short answer I would appreciate it.

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. matt 13:52

What new things would a christian scribe bring out of the treasures?

PastorAIO:

My guy, even if things crept into the church gradually there will be a time when it is ratified. Usually at some church council or the other.

For example, the doctrine of Trinity. We all know that not every christian accepted it and it was only ratified at, I believe though I could be wrong, the Council of Nicea. That was when it was declared that anyone that didn't accept it couldn't call themselves a christian (that was in the 4th century, about 300 years after christianity started). Please if I'm wrong feel free to correct me, my memory of the case is kinda foggy at the moment.

It seems to me that the only thing derailing this thread at the moment is your refusal to answer the questions. This is going on to one whole page of the thread now. A matter that should only take 2 posts.


Can I just make one last question/point? Can anyone please tell me what they understand by this passage in the bible. If the answer is going to be long and derail the thread then don't bother but if you can do a short answer I would appreciate it.

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. matt 13:52

What new things would a christian scribe bring out of the treasures?

I am not answering such questions cos i dont consiider iit necesary, n also u guys neglected all i said about the name catholic which started the whole thing. Bt i will the scripture u quoted for the sake of others viiewing the thread, n for clarity purpose n exposing any ulteriior motive.

He said to them, Therefore every [s] teacher and interpreter of the Sacred Writings who has been instructed about and trained for the kingdom of heaven and has [t] become a disciple is like a householder who brings forth out of his storehouse treasure that is new and [treasure that is] old [the fresh as well as the familiar]. Amplified version

Jesus was simply talkiing to the scribes (though everyone 'cos they all hold on to the Old covenant) that everyone that has come to accept the New covenant n its teachings n become a disciple as a result, make use of that which he learnt which is after the Old n the New which he just learnt n become a disciple indeed.

Remember Jesus also said i have not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it, of a truth, when one come to full understand of the Old testament then he will appreciate the New better 'cos the New is actually a fulfilment of the Old n better explain the intent of God for the people of Old.