Debroslink:

The death of Christ on the cross was done even before God created Adam and Eve. Does that answer your question?

ikes9: one thing yhu people fail to realise is this....
God our Eternal father... created all things...(Planets..galaxies etc...)...He also created all creatures(Angels and Humans)....God didn't create a defective angel that would later rebel and become Satan... in every being God created... he gave FREE CHOICE(or how i call it.. AGENCY)......We all have the freedom of choice..we can choose to Worship God... or we can choose to live a life of Sin...
but beware..
we have the freedom to choose our actions
but we do not have the freedom to.choose the consequences of our actions.....
The rebellion in Heaven.. is Enough proof that God gave his angels freedom of choice.
. ask your self... y didn't God immediately destroy Lucifer when that evil thought of rebellion came into.his mind
In Gods INFINITE wisdom..he knew the best thing to do..was to let it run its course...if yhu want more answers...
y don't yhu live a good Christ like life here.on earth...
when yhu get to Heaven..
yhu can ask God himself...

alexleo:

This brings us to the earlier answer i gave that God was not taken unawares by Lucifer. He knew before hand that Lucifer will fall and still created him and this means that he created him for a purpose. God also knew that the fall of lucifer will lead to the fall of man and he made provision for our redemption plan. Revelations 13:8 says he is the [b]lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. [/b]This simply tells you that the fall of lucifer and the fall of man is part of the creation package. None took God unawares. And it is for a purpose. Do you agree with me?

frank317:

Thank u very much for this answr. If this answer had come since this thread wouldn't have reach 2 pages.

What most christians don't know is that people just don't make decision to be atheists without think so religious doctrines through. Most times sincere answers such as this help in leting them get their minds of some things.

chuxyz: So you mean God did that on purpose so we all gather here on earth and be tormented by lucifer? If he did that on purpose why did he regret ever creating man? (Genesis 6:6). Will you regret what you did on purpose?

alexleo:

Yea bros thanks, i quite understand your point. The bible is very plain about the nature/attributes of God and this should help us have a balanced view of God but we Christians, in our effort to defend God, handpick some attributes of him that we like and use it to draw conclusions that will be unsatisfactory to one who wants to know. And in the process the person becomes more confused. If we can be plain about God based on what his nature is and relate it to this issue then this issue wont be brewing confusion here and there. And like the OP said, pastors are guilty of this too. I know they are doing the defence in good faith but does the defence really matter to God? I mean in the bible God did not hide or pretend about his nature/attributes so why should people hide or pretend about it when explaining some issues about him? God did not also say that we should not discuss what is written in the bible about his attributes. What i would not want to do is to view God outside the attributes that is written of him in the bible.

chuxyz: i was nodding while reading this. You spoke the TRUTH and nothing but the true TRUTH. Christians are always out fighting for God who has made himself known. Nice bro

alexleo:


Thanks bros. Now coming to the issue of purpose, the purpose of creating man I believe is not for us to be tormented by the devil.
We know the attributes/nature of God as we learnt from the bible that he is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. He is also a Loving God and he is also a God of judgment/wrath. Also God of mercy. There is nothing in the bible that shows that God does not want these attributes of him to be made manifest but there are a lot in the bible that shows that God does not pretend about his nature. Also in Malachi 3:6 God said he is unchangeable, which means that he never developed any of these nature of his after creation or as a result of his creation rather this has been his nature before he created all things.
In the light of this, how then can his judgment/wrath be made manifest if lucifer did not sin? I mean he couldn't have started unleashing judgment/wrath in a perfect, peaceful and sinless heaven. Again how then could we experience his mercy if there was no sin? His mercy wouldn't have manifested. This is why I said God allowed the fall of lucifer and the fall of man for a purpose. Let me know your views about this then we can proceed till we get to the other question you raised in Genesis.

Debroslink:

I agree with you 100%. The problem or truth of the matter is that we can NEVER know His purpose due to our limitations as humans. The secret things belong to Him. Even the Bible does not tell us everything about God. However, we argue and raise our facts based on the Bible. The Bible is our level about God. It is not God's level about Himself.

Serve God and obey His commandments. That's our purpose on earth. Let's do that and fulfill it instead of trying to understand God's purpose which will lead to nowhere. The secret things that belong to God will be revealed to us at afterlife.

malvisguy212: alexleo, nice one.

alexleo:

Well i understand what you are saying but i beg to disagree with you bro. One thing we christians have done over the years is trying to defend God and it is this defence that has always brought unsatisfactory answers to this lucifer question. And thats what you ve done in your post hence my disagreement with your submission. If you can keep an open mind now we could discuss it. I mean dont defend God and dont also abuse him. Just keep an open mind and accept the descriptions that the scripture gave about him and relate it to our points and lets see what we can arrive at. Are you ok with that?

JMAN05:

Ur request is rejected. I will defend God cos I consciously dedicated my life to serve Him. I did it with good reason of knowing Him.

If you think what I know about Him from the bible is wrong, then lets look at the topic once more, ie predestination. I agree to be open
minded. But I wont agree to cease from defending Him just with a plea from u. He is a God of justice and love.

My submission above has a scriptural backup, so it isn't just a blind conclusion.

emmyskies: There's this christian book and movie: Pilgrim's Progress. The writter of that book has a revelation. In his testimony, he spoke of him being told that there are many things that are hidden and will remain hidden till after the final day. He said among those thing is how satan became corrupt. He said it is hidden. But GOD will take it away. That in the next life, such a thing can never come up

alexleo:

Yeah you are right that God gave us freewill but the question here now is- Since God is all-knowing, did he know that Lucifer will fall before he created him or did lucifer's action take him unawares? If he knew, then what made him to go ahead and create him, and if he didnt know, then does that not mean that he is not all-knowing? Whats your take on this pls?

ikes9:
Well...God created him...knowing that he would rebel... but like I said FREE CHOICE .... God knowing Lucifer would rebel still wanted to give him the liberty to choose of he would still go on with the rebellion..or if he would repent...
Now...check this out...knowing children are normally foolish and annoying sometimes... does that mean that yhu would not gibe birth to children some day....
It is wah happens after the sin yhu committed that matters..
didn't God know that Judas Iscariot would betray his son Jesus christ
didn't God know that peter would deny Christ 3 times!!.
but did that stop God from creating them??...
peter Denied Christ 3 times..wah did he do after that...
He repented of his sin..and became a Huge instrument in the hands of God...on the other hand....
Judas Iscariot Committed suicide... instead of repenting...
so!
I hope this answers your question

wordcat:

Hehehehehe lol, guy read your first line again.

alexleo:

I was going to give you my own answer until I saw this post of yours.
Obviously this shows you are not here to reason with divergent views
rather to stick to your already drawn conclusion even before opening this thread
so believe whatever you want.
Nobody is forcing you to believe in God. Its a matter of choice. What you choose is what you ll get at last.

chuxyz:
See me see case o! I carry you for mind when i create this topic? Na by force to comment?
This statement really shows you will definitely give a useless answer.
Thanks for keeping it to your self. At least you wouldn't have revealed the more how gullible you are.
I only need bright minds here please fly away.

alexleo:

If you were reasonable enough you should ve known that when you throw a question to the public you maintain a balanced view of the contributions that will come in.
When you approve of someone's contribution the way you did it means you are no more open to divergent views.
In other words your question has been answered and any other answer coming in will be a waste.
Go and learn how to operate in a public forum and stop being silly.
If you had presented a position rather than a question its a different case.
I hope your foolishness will give way for you to learn.
You want bright minds when your own mind isn't bright. Ironical indeed.
You sound more like a tout than what I thought.

chuxyz:
So you finally showed your gullibility, so you can rest now abi? Now evaporate from here.
When a fool can not take part in an arguement, he only finds a way to be noticed. We don notice you now.
You definitely can't stand the arguement here.
If you are knowledgable enough you could have seen the one-sidedness of my arguement even right from the topic.
You didn't do debate in school (if you ever went to school) to know how the topic use to be phrased.
The topics are usually one-sided but while one side proposes, the other side opposes. Should i be in both sides?
If that's what you want, sorry, i'm not as confused as you are. Jesus!
See how humans think like goat o. Please go polish yourself and come back.
We might consider managing you as a reader only. Oloshi version 1.0

chuxyz: So you mean God did that on purpose so we all gather here on earth and be tormented by lucifer?
If he did that on purpose why did he regret ever creating man? (Genesis 6:6). Will you regret what you did on purpose?

alexleo:

Can we start with the purpose first? Then we can move to this other one because as i discuss, i learn too.
Its a two way thing. None of us were born with a bible so we keep reading and discussing and asking God to help us understand.
Thats how i do. Not that i am a master in bible knowledge.

chuxyz:

"Yea bros thanks, i quite understand your point.
The bible is very plain about the nature/attributes of God and this should help us have a balanced view of God
but we Christians, in our effort to defend God, handpick some attributes of him that we like
and use it to draw conclusions that will be unsatisfactory to one who wants to know.
And in the process the person becomes more confused.
If we can be plain about God based on what his nature is and relate it to this issue then this issue wont be brewing confusion here and there.
And like the OP said, pastors are guilty of this too. I know they are doing the defence in good faith but does the defence really matter to God?
I mean in the bible God did not hide or pretend about his nature/attributes
so why should people hide or pretend about it when explaining some issues about him?
God did not also say that we should not discuss what is written in the bible about his attributes.
What i would not want to do is to view God outside the attributes that is written of him in the bible" - alexleo

i was nodding while reading this. You spoke the TRUTH and nothing but the true TRUTH.
Christians are always out fighting for God who has made himself known. Nice bro

alexleo:

Thanks bros. Now coming to the issue of purpose, the purpose of creating man I believe is not for us to be tormented by the devil.
We know the attributes/nature of God as we learnt from the bible that he is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. He is also a Loving God and he is also a God of judgment/wrath. Also God of mercy. There is nothing in the bible that shows that God does not want these attributes of him to be made manifest but there are a lot in the bible that shows that God does not pretend about his nature. Also in Malachi 3:6 God said he is unchangeable, which means that he never developed any of these nature of his after creation or as a result of his creation rather this has been his nature before he created all things.
In the light of this, how then can his judgment/wrath be made manifest if lucifer did not sin? I mean he couldn't have started unleashing judgment/wrath in a perfect, peaceful and sinless heaven. Again how then could we experience his mercy if there was no sin? His mercy wouldn't have manifested. This is why I said God allowed the fall of lucifer and the fall of man for a purpose.
Let me know your views about this then we can proceed till we get to the other question you raised in Genesis.

chuxyz: will that freewill be striped of man when they go to heaven? If no, that means there is every possibility someone will rebel. Why should we wait till we go to heaven to get answers? Getting the answers here on earth is still a course to know about God. There will definitely be no need having such knowledge in heaven cos you will definitely be doing nothing with it.

ikes9:
Lol... the free will ,would still be with us in Heaven.....
look @ this??... have yhu ever heard or read of another rebellion in heaven?...does this mean that the Free will.of the remaining angels has been taken away No,I don't think so....They Still have that free will... but as intelligent beings ... they have chosen not to thread the same path which Lucifer went....
We all know that if yhu are caught stealing ...either yhu go to jail or a mob catches up with yhu....
Now..would yhu still CHOOSE to steal?
Hope I answered your questions

alexleo:

The simple message I was passing is for you to say the truth about God at all times. It is the truth of God's word that will defend God not you. Not manipulation of his word. Where the bible says he is a God of wrath you accept, where it says he is a God of love you accept. Not where it says the one you are not comfortable with or the one that doesn't fall in line with your church doctrine and belief or the one that you don't understand you start telling long stories in the name of defence. You only make a mockery of him by doing so. I'm not pleading with you not to defend him, you can go ahead with your defence. For me I prefer discussing with people who are not out to defend or abuse God. They just have an open mind to know more of him. When we all present the truth of his word unadulterated, it is that truth that will defend him and set us free from confusion and wrong perception of him. Jesus said its the truth that sets free, not manipulation of the truth. Having said this, I hereby end further discussion with you on this issue because your submission as a so called "God defender" can only give me a one sided view, a view that is powered by sentiments and I don't need it sir. I need a balanced view so let me continue with those who wants to discuss with open mind. Thanks.

BabaGnoni:















From chuxyz's - "bright minds here please fly away",
to alexleo's - "Go and learn - hope your foolishness will give way for you to learn-sound more like a tout than what I thought"
to chuxyz's - "not as confused as you are - humans think like goat o.
Please go polish yourself and come back -might consider managing you as a reader only. Oloshi version 1.0"
to alexleo's - "Can we start..."
to chuxyz's - "i was nodding while reading this - Nice bro"
to alexleo's - "Thanks bros... Let me know your views about this then we can proceed..."

It was exciting reading while it lasted
It was a comedy of laughter. From Oloshi, to Nice bro and Thanks bro
After the initial hitch, at least una both somehow made up and una don padi.

"I have been pondering over this time after time but have got no answers.
Even so called pastors will only meander around the question and end up coming out with no answer.
Now the question is this:
If satan tempted man to sin against God, and we term satan the father of sin,
then who tempted satan to also sin or rebel against God? Another Satan?
If your answer is NOBODY, that means when we all have been raptured and gone to heaven, wont that same NOBODY tempt man to rebel against God again?
And we will all start from square-one again back on earth.
Please i need insightful answers only. Thanks." - chuxyz

To my friend chuxyz, I sure hope you can handle the truth.
I'll cut to the chase and answer curtly as much as I can
but will kick off first with this Yoruba adage
"Ilu ti oni ofin, kosi ese"
Sorry I don't know an Igbo version of it, however literally means "where there is no law, sin doesn't exist"

Q/ If satan tempted man to sin against God, and we term satan the father of sin,
then who tempted satan to also sin or rebel against God?
Another Satan?
A/ NOBODY tempted satan to sin or rebel against God.
No, not another Satan, there is and will be only one Satan

Q/ If your answer is NOBODY, that means when we all have been raptured and gone to heaven,
wont that same NOBODY tempt man to rebel against God again?
A/ No, that same NOBODY will not tempt man to rebel against God again. (Note I am about answering your preemptive Why)
Why? Because that same NOBODY won't be able to as God categorically said death will no longer be
(i.e. note that death is the penalty for sin
refer to Revelation 21:4 below to see where God promised that death and by proxy sin wont be anymore
and refer to Isaiah 55:11 also to know why one can believe and trust God's word on this or anything else for that matter)

and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes;
and there will no longer be any death;
there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
- Revelation 21:4 New American Standard Bible

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
- Isaiah 55:11

Q/ And we will all start from square-one again back on earth.
Please i need insightful answers only. Thanks.
A/ We will all start from square-one again back on earth where there will no more be sin as answered above.
Sin has been clinically and thoroughly dealt with by God at Calvary,
however it is allowed to run it's full course as it needs to empty out the whole contents inside it's Pandora box.
- by then, all the life in sin would have been sucked out, it won't have legs to stand on, talkless want to rear it's ugly head ever again.
You're welcome.

chuxyz:
First of all, i will say you are very funny. Hahahahahah! You kept me laughing...
Well, in life there is always thorough understanding after a misunderstanding.
Thanks for your contribution and i will say I understand yoruba very well.

So because God said death will no longer be means no more temptation will come up?
Is it death that tempted man or made satan to rebel?
Was death existing before satan rebelled?
If God dealt with sin totally, then where did sin erupt from?
What is that thing that manipulated satan's mind?
I tell you death and sin were not in existence before satan rebelled against God.
Even if God destroys Sin totally, wont it erupt from nowhere as before?

mazaje: That is the problem with religion, it creates mythical and fictitious problems and later provides mythical and fictitious answers to the problems it created just to keep people in line. . . .

BabaGnoni:

My dear padi chuxyz, LOL,
I dey laugh, at all these questions
- that's my Obasanjo laugh by the way ooo
As earlier said , I sure hope you can handle the truth

Q/ So because God said death will no longer be, means no more temptation will come up?
Is it death that tempted man or made satan to rebel?
A/ Yes, it means no more temptation will come up
No, it wasn't death that tempted man or made satan to rebel

Q/ Was death existing before satan rebelled?
A/ I am not 100% sure whether death was existing before satan rebelled
It could have and could have not
Even if death did exist, it wouldn't have any bearing on satan
Anyway, I am 100% sure death existed before Adam rebelled

Q/ If God dealt with sin totally, then where did sin erupt from?
A/ Sin was only dealt with at Calvary,
as said we are waiting for sin run its full course, remember,
so what is all this about that God dealt with sin totally now?
Sin had always erupted (i.e. came) from the transgression of the law
(i.e. note that every word that proceeds from the mouth of a King is law; God is Sovereign)


Q/ What is that thing that manipulated satan's mind?
A/ The thing that manipulated satan's mind, just like it did with Adam, was self
(i.e. as you've unknowingly but rightly brushed against, that thing is satan's mind)
- Remember Adam wasn't deceived,
- Adam like satan too, just blatantly and out-rightly went against the law (i.e. God's word) by himself
- Satan and Adam alike made up their minds to commit sin (i.e. break the law)

Q/ I tell you death and sin were not in existence before satan rebelled against God.
A/ Sorry beg to differ with you on that one,
they both (i.e. death and sin) were in existence , they were by virtue of a word (i.e. law)
In Satan's case, sin was dormant until it was committed
(note that satan is a spirit and not within the parameters of death as it relates to man)
whereas in Adam & Eve's case, both sin and death were dormant.
- Death is activated by sin. Sin is activated or committed when a word or law is broken.
- Sin is the sting of death, sin is what death kills with

Q/Even if God destroys Sin totally, wont it erupt from nowhere as before?
A/ No, it wont erupt from nowhere as before because nothing will be illegal to do
(i.e. people wont be doing banned or illegal stuff)

Remember, earlier, that sin has been clinically and thoroughly dealt with by God at Calvary,
however it is allowed to run it's full course as it needs to empty out the whole contents inside it's Pandora box.
- by time it's finished, all the life in sin would have been sucked out,
exhausted, it won't have legs to stand on anymore, talkless want to rear it's ugly head ever again.

Maybe this short analogy might explain more:
a crime is not committed if there is no law to break
better still, an act is not criminal, if there is no law against committing the act

PS: Sorry for leaving out the relevant or relating scriptures that backs up the responses

chuxyz:
You did but that bold text didn't do the work you expected cos a freewill individual must want to try something different. Even after satan rebelled, some other angels still came on earth to have affair with the worldly beings. Didn't they learn from lucifer?

chuxyz:

i would really love to get quotes from the scripture.
Have just been wondering how you knew God's mind inside-out.
From all you have said
then it means surely there is every probability that man will rebel again after they have made heaven or paradise
as the case may be.
I like your analysis sha

BabaGnoni:

God is no respecter of persons.
He talks with everyone

What happened on Calvary is a long-lasting solution, chuxyz
Sin needs to run it's course and use up all it's grisly, the gruesome, it's violence, bloodthirstiness, it's bloodiness, brutality, it's savagery,
the frightful, the horrid, the horrifying, fearfulness, the hideous, the horrible, the dreadful, the terrible, the horrific,
disgusting, repulsive, repugnant, revolting, sickening, distressing, shocking, appalling, abominable, loathsome, abhorrent, monstrous, the unspeakable,
all that is gross, sickness, hatred, hatefulness, evil, wickedness etc etc I think you're getting the drift, so all these need to be used up,
so there 'll be nothing more left in sin
- that's how sin wouldn't be able to rear itself again chuxyz (i.e. nail it at the root, the crux of the whole matter as it were)
- and remember what God did at Golgotha.
- Also remember God guaranteed there will be no more sin (i.e. Revelation 21:4)

chuxyz, please, quote me verbatim, where exactly, from all I've said, it means to you, surely there is every probability that man will rebel again

ikes9:
Lol.... They did...their own was Lust.....they had the choice... whether to have affairs with the worldly daughters of Eve.....or to.Abstain
yhu see...the Freedom of Choice is A beautiful thing
but yhu have to learn to Choose The Right @ all times...
for those angels...well...the book of Enoch already stated that they were being imprisoned till the day of Judgement..
but still...have yhu heard of any other heavenly rebellion

chuxyz: thanks for your time. But why should you think i don't know all that? I am only interested in know how satan's mind was manipulated. Did it happen suddenly? If so, won't such thought come up again after we must have gone to heaven? I hope you understand where i'm heading to this time around. Thanks