Let me use me as an example.
My Father loves me so much, he is ready to give his life for me, he can't even stand another flog me, he wants the best for me, he gives me everything within his power, yet this same very Father of mine flogs me like a criminal when I air wrongly, WHY?
That is Who he is... he can't stand me misbehaving.

Saying God should abolish hell is like saying My father should unbeat me after beating me.
Can't happen!

finofaya:

Lol @ redemption plan.

See, I still don't know why you think God, who is equally good and evil, or merciful and wrathful to quote you, would have a predisposition for good or mercy. I see enough evidence in the world to suspect that this not the case.

This redemption plan. If his motives are not suspect, why would God in claiming to show mercy to man come up with a redemption plan that involves destroying more people than it saves? It is entirely possible for God to show us mercy and unleash his wrath on any number of things to spare us. Things like plants, microbes, other animals and even property (stars and planets. Destruction of property is evil). Why should his wrath be unleashed on the one thing that is capable of experiencing the most intense suffering, if he is not 'impolite'?

My dear God is a creator. A creator has a concept of what he wants to create at a particular point in time. God created the living things and the non living things. And each of the things he created under this two distinctions have their uniqueness.

In the case of man, his concept was to have a being that will be in his image with higher ability to choose and make decisions etc(than the animals).

Having created that, the next reaonable thing to do for a being you gave such a freewill will is to inform him of the consequences of his choices. And God has always done this from the beginning. He has always warned man on the consequences of his choice right from the garden of Eden.

A little example could be this- A son grows up and ready for marriage, the parents calls him and tells him the consequences of choosing a bad woman for a wife. If the boy goes and choose a bad woman he suffers the consequence. You don't blame the parents again. They played their part as parents. Same way God has been warning us on the consequences of choosing the way that leads to his wrath(which is eternal). You don't blame him for the choice anybody makes. Salvation is too cheap so nobody can say he didn't accept it because of the high cost.

chrisviral:

Hehehehe you na mad man o yoruba huh?
If my post did appear that God is distant to certain things, lol sorry, u know say english no be my language.

No wahala brother. I would like to learn more from you

chrisviral: Let me use me as an example.
My Father loves me so much, he is ready to give his life for me, he can't even stand another flog me, he wants the best for me, he gives me everything within his power, yet this same very Father of mine flogs me like a criminal when I air wrongly, WHY?
That is Who he is... he can't stand me misbehaving.

Saying God should abolish hell is like saying My father should unbeat me after beating me.
Can't happen!

And how does the relationship between man and the creator resemble that of Father and son?

Father is not in them son like God is in us

alexleo:

Bro I'm a christian so whatever I'm discussing about God will still not be out of the biblical background. An atheist can discuss God outside the bible and that's for the person. But not to draw me to reason outside the bible with him. He decided to reason outside the bible by choice and I decided to reason within the bible and that's by choice too.

Having said that, let me answer you about lucifer. He committed sin by wanting to overthrow God. Its an act of pride, greed and treason. God's wrath was pulled out by such a negative act and he cursed lucifer. The curse further placed him on the part of evil and creating evil.

This boils down to what I said that wrath produces evil while mercy produces good.

What's your idea of God??
A SuperBeing that performs magic or a,Spirit that constitutes all in existence??

alexleo:

My dear God is a creator. A creator has a concept of what he wants to create at a particular point in time. God created the living things and the non living things. And each of the things he created under this two distinctions have their uniqueness.

In the case of man, his concept was to have a being that will be in his image with higher ability to choose and make decisions etc(than the animals).

Having created that, the next reaonable thing to do for a being you gave such a freewill will is to inform him of the consequences of his choices. And God has always done this from the beginning. He has always warned man on the consequences of his choice right from the garden of Eden.

A little example could be this- A son grows up and ready for marriage, the parents calls him and tells him the consequences of choosing a bad woman for a wife. If the boy goes and choose a bad woman he suffers the consequence. You don't blame the parents again. They played their part as parents. Same way God has been warning us on the consequences of choosing the way that leads to his wrath(which is eternal). You don't blame him for the choice anybody makes. Salvation is too cheap so nobody can say he didn't accept it because of the high cost.

this is a failed analogy.

If a parent tells the child not to marry a bad wife for the consequence is beyond the parents control...how can you equate this to...God tells a man not to steal for the consequence are God's to give

It all boils down to God dishing out the punishment himself

macof:


this is a failed analogy.

If a parent tells the child not to marry a bad wife for the consequence is beyond the parents control...how can you equate this to...God tells a man not to steal for the consequence are God's to give

It all boils down to God dishing out the punishment himself

The conseequence boils down to the same thing we have been discoursing here- God's wrath.

Wrath is his attributes which he doesn't have control over to change. These attributes are eternal. He didn't develop them as a result of his creation rather those attributes were there before creation and it is a combination of these eternal attributes that make him GOD.

Genesis 1:1 says- " in the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth etc. Which means he was already a God before creating. It wasn't creation that made him God. In this regard, those attributes that made him God had already been there before creation and he cannot change those attributes because of creation.

The best he has done (which is what he can do) is to make a way out so that people will escape this other side of him(eternal wrath). If God had the power to wipe out his attributes he wouldn't have bothered sacrificing Jesus. He would ve expunged that attribute(wrath) from him. But bros, he can't even do it. Malachi 3:6 says I am God, I change not (these is part of the things that constitue his being as a God-unchangeable nature). If he changes his nature he is no more God.

You see how selfish human can reason? We want God to change for us rather than us changing for him. Can you imagine the clay trying to mould the potter? Not possible bro. Its the potter that moulds the clay.

macof:

And how does the relationship between man and the creator resemble that of Father and son?

Father is not in them son like God is in us

You have heard of Genes right? The DNA huh? It carries traits from parents to offspring, anyway I was just using that as an illustration.

macof:


this is a failed analogy.

If a parent tells the child not to marry a bad wife for the consequence is beyond the parents control...how can you equate this to...God tells a man not to steal for the consequence are God's to give

It all boils down to God dishing out the punishment himself

Do you think God is happy to "dish out the punishment?
Answer this and we will talk more on this!

macof:

What's your idea of God??
A SuperBeing that performs magic or a,Spirit that constitutes all in existence??

God is a spirit and a suprer being who cannot change his nature. The creator of heaven and earth. He is not a magician.

alexleo:

My dear God is a creator. A creator has a concept of what he wants to create at a particular point in time. God created the living things and the non living things. And each of the things he created under this two distinctions have their uniqueness.

In the case of man, his concept was to have a being that will be in his image with higher ability to choose and make decisions etc(than the animals).

Having created that, the next reaonable thing to do for a being you gave such a freewill will is to inform him of the consequences of his choices. And God has always done this from the beginning. He has always warned man on the consequences of his choice right from the garden of Eden.

A little example could be this- A son grows up and ready for marriage, the parents calls him and tells him the consequences of choosing a bad woman for a wife. If the boy goes and choose a bad woman he suffers the consequence. You don't blame the parents again. They played their part as parents. Same way God has been warning us on the consequences of choosing the way that leads to his wrath(which is eternal). You don't blame him for the choice anybody makes. Salvation is too cheap so nobody can say he didn't accept it because of the high cost.

What your position equates to is that evil is a more powerful force than good. That is the only way to explain burning a person forever for an act of evil he has committed. For if God was equally good and evil (or merciful and wrathful) then consequences would be equal to their causes. Even more so where God is said to be predisposed to doing good.

But we find that people go to hell for telling lies, no matter the gravity of the lie.

What you say about God may be true, but only if God is more wrathful than he is merciful. More evil than he is good.

Not that I'm holding him accountable tho. It's his nature, and he has no power over it.

finofaya:

What your position equates to is that evil is a more powerful force than good. That is the only way to explain burning a person forever for an act of evil he has committed. For if God was equally good and evil (or merciful and wrathful) then consequences would be equal to their causes. Even more so where God is said to be predisposed to doing good.
Infact, born again christians will the tell you that his mercy is greater(because the are walking on that past while sinners will the you that hidwrath is great
But we find that people go to hell for telling lies, no matter the gravity of the lie.

What you say about God may be true, but only if God is more wrathful than he is merciful. More evil than he is good.

Not that I'm holding him accountable tho. It's his nature, and he has no power over it.

This is not a matter of his wrath being more than his mercy. Both are equal It is your choice that places you on the path you ll head to. Sin places you on the path of his wrath while repentance places you on the part of his mercy. In his mercy your conscience will always alert and plead with you that you ve sinned and should repent.

Its not as if God picks people and places them on the path of his wrath. It is your choice and your choice is entirely on you to control, not on God.

chrisviral:

You have heard of Genes right? The DNA huh? It carries traits from parents to offspring, anyway I was just using that as an illustration.

Traits from father to son is not like Consciousness of God in man

This is a whole different ball game.

God itself is a body of consciousness, that manifest into human life among others

alexleo:

The conseequence boils down to the same thing we have been discoursing here- God's wrath.

Wrath is his attributes which he doesn't have control over to change. These attributes are eternal. He didn't develop them as a result of his creation rather those attributes were there before creation and it is a combination of these eternal attributes that make him GOD.

Genesis 1:1 says- " in the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth etc. Which means he was already a God before creating. It wasn't creation that made him God. In this regard, those attributes that made him God had already been there before creation and he cannot change those attributes because of creation.

The best he has done (which is what he can do) is to make a way out so that people will escape this other side of him(eternal wrath). If God had the power to wipe out his attributes he wouldn't have bothered sacrificing Jesus. He would ve expunged that attribute(wrath) from him. But bros, he can't even do it. Malachi 3:6 says I am God, I change not (these is part of the things that constitue his being as a God-unchangeable nature). If he changes his nature he is no more God.

You see how selfish human can reason? We want God to change for us rather than us changing for him. Can you imagine the clay trying to mould the potter? Not possible bro. Its the potter that moulds the clay.

Firstly:
The potter is not a potter until he begins to mould clay.

God is not a creator until he began to create

Secondly: Wrath is an emotion, God is a spirit, spirits don't have emotions.
Emotions are attributes of living organisms to strive and gain higher consciousness

alexleo:

God is a spirit and a suprer being who cannot change his nature. The creator of heaven and earth. He is not a magician.

Since you know God is a spirit.

How can a spirit be overthrown from it's duties? How can a spirit curse?

Can rocks take the place of rain water??

chrisviral:

Do you think God is happy to "dish out the punishment?
Answer this and we will talk more on this!

God doesn't feel "happiness" or anger

There's always a balanced and fair reward for every act.

macof:
Firstly:
The potter is not a potter until he begins to mould clay.

God is not a creator until he began to create

And he created the the heaven and the earth and everything in it(including you and I0).

macof:


Secondly: Wrath is an emotion, God is a spirit, spirits don't have emotions.
Emotions are attributes of living organisms to strive and gain higher consciousness

Who told you that spirits are not living? They are not emotional? Have you been a spirit before? God created man in his likeness- we talk, think, be happy and sad, and you are here telling me that the one who created us that way is not emotional? You are not just serious. Even man carry the spirit being within us.

macof:

Since you know God is a spirit.

How can a spirit be overthrown from it's duties? How can a spirit curse?

Can rocks take the place of rain water??

Again you are just describing what you think a spirit is in your own little understanding. You are not a spirit so your answers are not authentic. I believe God more who says he is a spirit and says he loves us(we experience his love everyday), he is a God of wrath(we see his wrath taking place), he is a merciful God(we experience his mercy everyday) etc. Of course nobody can overthrow God though Satan attempted it, yet he failed.

alexleo:

Again you are just describing what you think a spirit is in your own little understanding. You are not a spirit so your answers are not authentic. I believe God more who says he is a spirit and says he loves us(we experience his love everyday), he is a God of wrath(we see his wrath taking place), he is a merciful God(we experience his mercy everyday) etc. Of course nobody can overthrow God though Satan attempted it, yet he failed.

How can a spirit attempt to take over a duty that's not it's nature??

This is like saying Rocks want to take over from rainwater and start falling from the sky during storms.

Every spirit has it's nature, no spirit can attempt taking over another spirit.

alexleo:

And he created the the heaven and the earth and everything in it(including you and I0).



Who told you that spirits are not living? They are not emotional? Have you been a spirit before? God created man in his likeness- we talk, think, be happy and sad, and you are here telling me that the one who created us that way is not emotional? You are not just serious. Even man carry the spirit being within us.

God created everything yes, but before creation God was not a "creator"
Creator became a characteristic, infact became it's identity, the moment creation was underway.

So telling me God has been unchangeable with all characteristics before creation is false.

I have had my personal experience with the spirit world, my knowledge is based on my search and experience

Very good

Sorry couldn't read it. What is this thread all about?

from the old testament stories of the jewish yahweh, he is undoubtedly an easily angered blood sucking unforgiving monster, who could not forgive his first creatures of an offense as a result of a temptation he could have abated in the first place as acclaimed omni science. he even extended the punishment to innocent unborn generation.
I would gladly bow to the Gods of my African ancestors, than to worship the jewish yahweh.

The misery is too wide to understand
We don't see God but we believe.
I have no idea of what am sayn gan

interesting post,,,this could continue for a while....
[img]http://smsh.me/axul.jpg[/img][img]http://smsh.me/azlb.jpg[/img]

finofaya: I've been wondering what is meant by a good God.




God is good.

Okay.

The problem here is that "good" is meaningless without "evil". In order for good to exist, evil must exist, since a thing can only be good in relation to another thing.

Christians will say that God is good and man introduced evil after the fall. Or perhaps it was the fall of Lucifer that introduced evil. Either way, what it means is that God became good at the point of the introduction of evil. Before then, he was good in relation to what? Nothing. So he could not have been good.

In order for God to be good from the on set, there must have been evil somewhere, from the on set. There are four ways this could have played out:

1. God is neither good nor evil, he just is. In this case, good and evil only have meaning because we say they do. What we mean when we say something is good or evil is that we approve or do not approve of it. Nothing is objectively good or evil.

2. Assuming that one thing can be both at the same time, God is both good and evil. Good and evil exist objectively, and they are both embodied in God.

3. Assuming that nothing can be both at the same time, God is good, while another entity exists which is evil. This entity would be similar to God, (eg if God has a good personality, it would have an evil personality) in order to be the antithesis of God. Thus it should be sentient. Here, God is not responsible for the evil being. Instead something higher than both God and the evil being is responsible for both of them.

4. Still assuming that nothing can be both at the same time, God is evil, while another entity exists which is good. And something else is responsible for both of them.

Which one is obtainable? I have no idea. I could even be entirely wrong.

Any ideas?

Amos 3:6-7 (KJV)

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it? Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.


Proverbs 16:4 (KJV)

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Another human attribute expected of the creator of the universe (if any)...Good? I'll pass.

You can never know how much or how good God is,until you stop/are almost not breathing. Only the dead can answer that properly cos if given a chance,I'm pretty sure they'd choose to live again,despite all the troubles and chaos in the world. God is too good for you to know how good He is.

In absolute truism, there is no good and evil. Everything works towards singularity. Think about earthquake, for victims of the cataclysmic natural tectonic re-alignment it is evil, but within the cosmic creativity, its core goal is the alignment of the san adreas fault, a sequence that can only make the planet better.

So in essence, Cosmic Infinity codenamed God by religion is neutrality. Both good and bad is of same source. That source is what you call God....2 sides of the same coin.

He's ''WHO WAS , WHO IS, AND WHO IS TO COME''. So He has bn good, nd He is good and will continue to be good. Get used to that mann.

chrisviral: Let me use me as an example.
My Father loves me so much, he is ready to give his life for me, he can't even stand another flog me, he wants the best for me, he gives me everything within his power, yet this same very Father of mine flogs me like a criminal when I air wrongly, WHY?
That is Who he is... he can't stand me misbehaving.

Saying God should abolish hell is like saying My father should unbeat me after beating me.
Can't happen!

So, as a father, you can burn your child eternally, so as to correct him, yeah?