Wow, so many bible verses being quoted.

mbaemeka

I hope you realize that I asked you a number of questions which you deliberately ignored.

Then you quote scripture BUT end up reading your meaning into each and every portion you pick.

In responding (because you think you have to make a point) you evade pertinent issues raised by me and instead bring up other things to perhaps shift focus away from things you cannot handle.

You are asking for Bible passages, behaving like the Pharisees who were asking Jesus for signs before they would accept him as Messiah.

I’m sure many of your friends have seen that you have goofed big time hence the advice to you by them to cut down on your writing.

You WoF people deify man and reduce the humanity of Jesus Christ to your level so to claim equality with him.

Here I am quoting scriptures while you are there giving me conjectures. Why not just quote the scriptures and let them interprete themselves as usual.

Henceforth, I will reply you in clear scriptures and a few words. Let me see you argue yourself away from God's word.

1. Jesus had to come in the same flesh with ordinary men because his body was from his mum but his blood was from his dad as ELEMENTARY biology will tell you.

Romans 8:3 says God sent his son in the verisimilitude of SINFUL FLESH.

Jesus Christ was sin free in his flesh.
– John 1: 14: “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth”
- 1 John 3:5: “You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.”
- 1 Peter 2:24: “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.”

Look again at your statement: Romans 8:3 says God sent his son in the verisimilitude of SINFUL FLESH.
Simple English Mbaemaka, when something is ‘similar to’ does it necessarily make it EXACTLY LIKE?
Secondly, where does the blood flow? Out of the body or inside the body? Related to every cell of the body or separated from them?
I assure you that you do not want me to teach you the biology of Jesus’ conception because you will be lost.

2. John 20:23 answers you clearly on Man's ability to forgive sins committed against GOD. He told his disciples if they forgave any man's sins the man is forgiven and if they retained his sins he would not be forgiven. Simple and clear.

- By what power can a man forgive the sins another man commits against God?

3. The word pre-existed Abraham of course. That same word was at the beginning in the bosom of the father 1 John 1:2. That same word became flesh and was born by a woman, Mary. That word made flesh was called Jesus.

Do you now understand that that same Word in becoming flesh was something unique? The one who pre-existed Abraham is the one that became flesh and dwelt among us and his glory was seen; the glory as of THE ONLY SON from the Father. Do these words mean anything to you?

4. ANYONE born from God is a son of God. 1John 3:1. So any human being is as much a son of God as Jesus was but the Jews didn't know that.

Two terms were used in talking about Jesus – Son of God and Son of Man. These two terms were not just thrown about in referring to anyone. When Jesus called himself Son of God the Jews who apparently understood him better than you KNEW what he was stating.
John 5:8 – “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”
They clearly understood what he was saying – claiming equality with God. If like you claim the Jews didn’t know anyone born of God can call himself a son of God why did the writer not say so? See again John 1:14. This Son of God was UNIQUE.

5. Being born again means to come from above. Genneth anothen in Greek. How did Jesus come from above? He was the word made flesh same way any man that is born again is born from the same word that lives and abides forever 1 Peter 1:23

You again display your shallow understanding. Who gets ‘born again’? A person who was conceived in iniquity and has Adam’s sin imputed on him or the uniquely born one who has no sin in him? If you are claiming that Jesus was born again by coming from above does any man who is born again today come from above in the sense that Jesus did?

6. Stop making daft relations between the biblical statement that Jesus had a flesh subject to sin (sinful flesh) and one that says he didn't sin in his flesh. Jesus' flesh was a mortal/sinful one like any man's but Jesus didn't sin. Also he had spotless blood. That's why he is different from any other man bar Adam.

Why do you think it was necessary he had a sinful flesh? Because if he could not sin then he could not represent us the same way Adam did because Adam could sin and he did.

6b. Anyone who is born again has received the Spirit without measure for God doesn't give his sons the spirit by measure and then send them the same way he sent the one he sent without measure. It makes no scriptural sense.

Jesus had ‘flesh’, in other words the same physical body we have BUT the BIG difference is that his flesh did not have the sin nature that every other human inherited from Adam. There is a difference here which I hope you can see. Flesh, yes, but sin, no. If he had a sinful flesh he will not qualify to be the lamb without blemish. He was PERFECT HUMANITY. It was this flesh in which there is NO SIN that qualifies to represent mankind before God. The flesh – Jesus' flesh – had no sin. - 1 John 3:5: “You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.” Note 'in him there is no sin'.
Deuteronomy 17:1 tells us that any animal that was to be sacrificed to God must not have any blemish or any defect whatever.
For Jesus to qualify therefore he had to be without ANY DEFECT WHATEVER. Sinful flesh would be a defect.
So if you are telling us that Jesus had sinful flesh you are contradicting scripture.

7. If you don't know the growth stages in the life of the born again man just ask politely and I will teach you. The grown man (fathers) in Christ doesn't sin and he cannot sin. I know they have not taught you that in wherever you worship but it is in scripture. What do you have to say about 1John 3:9 and then compare it with 1 John 1: 8-10 that you initially referred me to.

8. Without faith it is impossible to please God. For he who comes to God must first believe that he exists and that he is a REWARDER of those that DILLIGENTLY seek him. Hebrew 11:6. What is faith? It is the EVIDENCE of things not yet seen Hebrews 11:1 so if a man comes to Jesus without a confidence that he will receive from him then he would not receive. I quoted Paul in Galatians 3:5 and even him in Acts 14. If you have a better understanding why not humor me by telling me what that understanding is and watch you contradict yourself for the gazillionth time.

Congrats on this your ‘revelation’!

9. Stop giving me chaff about the miracles he did and answer the question for once. Which miracle was greater between raising Lazarus from the dead and Jesus raising himself from the dead?

On the irrelevant question on raising Lazarus look at this:
John 10:17,18 – “For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father”
At what point in his ministry did he make this claim? After he raised Lazarus?
So you can see that your question was dead on arrival. He could have raised himself from the dead (like I noted before other members of the Godhead were also involved) even before he raised anyone from the dead. He was not progressively improving in his miracle working abilities like you want to make us believe. If your pastor has sold you this to justify his own state, tell him it’s not in scripture.

As per HS's you have no case. HS's teach about salvation and demonstrate it. The healing is part of the salvation (soteria).

Jesus primary purpose of presenting his miracle-credentials was to point to himself as the saviour. He was not going about performing miracles for miracles sake. That is why he never organized people in any HEALING SCHOOL. It was MORE IMPORTANT to have them believe on him as the Messiah than to have physical healing.

If there is any question you asked me that I evaded please bring them to my knowledge so I can respond. I won't go back and forth with you to discuss very very clear scriptures that need no extra interpretation.

Imagine someone telling me that Romans 8:3 means that it was similar to SINFUL FLESH. Lol. What does it mean that it was similar to SINFUL FLESH except that it was sinful flesh? Man, I tricked you and you took the bait. It said he was made in LIKENESS of SINFUL FLESH and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. This means that his flesh was the same sinful flesh man had and he was made so because of sin so that he could condemn sin in the flesh i.e he could defeat sin by refusing to succumb to it- this is why his body qualified. Even Vooks didn't argue with the scriptures- he simply stretched it to even include Jesus' blood and he is not "WOF" (Whatever the word means).

Hahahaha @ goof. Joagbaje follows me so he would find it laborious to read my exchange with you because it would appear lengthy to someone who hasn't been following the discussion.

What is actually a big goof is the scriptural references you are making. They are indeed laughable. I clearly stated Jesus didn't sin but his flesh was subject to sin yet you are quoting 1 Peter to me and asking me about biology. Hahahahaha. This is a fiasco of a damage-control. The scriptures didn't say he had likeness of the flesh. It said likeness of SINFUL FLESH. Please try again. Your explanation is dead on arrival (borrowing your words).

As per THE WORD that was made FLESH let me repeat myself again maybe by chance you would catch it this time. The scriptures didn't say JESUS was made FLESH. It said the WORD (GOD) was made FLESH. The WORD (GOD) was made a HUMAN BEING and the HUMAN BEING was called Jesus. Do you get it now?

You reference to him calling himself a son makes no sense again. Until Jesus called himself a son of God did you see any MOG or Prophet of old call themselves such? They never did so because to call yourself a son of God was to say you were on par with God. But what does it even have to do with the discussion? I said JESUS DIDN'T FUNCTION AS GOD not that he was not GOD. So please stop trying to save face and answer the questions I have asked you.

Your explanation is thrash on being born again. I explained the Greek rendering. The least you could do was claim the words meant something else or you should have tried to explain the 1 Peter 1:23 that I made reference to. Did Jesus fall down from heaven? Was he not born by Mary? Did you see the Holy Spirit do anything but speak words to her by an angel? What is this cockamamie of a reply from you?

Stop with your ridiculous claims that are bereft of scriptural backing. There are 2 types of flesh: a mortal one and an immortal one. The mortal is called Corruption or corruptible while the latter is called Incorruption or Incorruptible. So which did Jesus come in? Let us start from there. I expect you to evade this question and then tell me again that he was the lamb of God as if anyone is arguing that. What Jesus used to cleanse sin was his blood and that was what had no sin. Please give me 1 scripture- just 1 saying Jesus' flesh was any different from the corruptible flesh that all men have. I will wait. Besides, what SIN would a lamb have, to be disqualified as a means of atonement in the OT? Did Jesus body not get badly beaten and scourged? Is that not a defect? The defect that lambs were not to have were PHYSICAL for no lamb could have SIN defects (how would the lamb sin? Lol). And this was a SHADOW of the zero ACTS of PHYSICAL sin that Jesus would manifest in the FLESH so as to present his badly battered body worthy of a lamb to be used as the sin-offering.

No offense, but that spin on taking his life and raising it according to John 10 is dumb even for someone like you. Jesus already said he had overcome the world in John 17 and he said a man could receive eternal life by believing in him in John 6 & 10. He was talking faith for none of these had happened or could occur until he died. Faith is the confidence that what you expect is real. (Keyword- what you EXPECT). So try again. What did Jesus mean by greater miracles? Raising Lazarus from the dead and raising himself which was greater?

Read Bidam's post on Salvation involving healing from sicknesses and learn something today as you are bumbling scriptures and digging yourself deeper.

shdemidemi:

thanks..

I am sorry, I couldn't read all of your rejoinders.

When you say his flesh changed before corruption, what exactly did you mean, meaning what form was it and what form did it change to?


If you accept that your flesh is corruptible, do you agree it will suffer decay when the soul leaves the body?

He (Jesus) functioned in this world in a corruptible flesh and it changed to Incorruptible when he resurrected. It is the same Immortal flesh that we all would have at his appearing (The Rapture). We all means Christians that are alive and those that are dead whose spirits are already in Heaven. Their physical decayed remains would change to the immortal one with their spirits within and they would ascend to meet Jesus in the air while those of us still around would change in the twinkling of an eye and meet with them shortly after.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

I know some might want to claim that this verses mean that Jesus' didn't have corruptible flesh. That would be a lie on one front:He was beaten with injuries and he was killed. Only Corruptible/Mortal flesh can suffer this- and Jesus suffered this. NB: He said In hell. Meaning the body of Jesus was already buried in the tomb while his spirit was in hell yet God didn't let Jesus' body to decay- he changed it immediately.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Of course the flesh- mortal one suffers decay and would suffer decay when the Spirit leaves it. Have I ever said otherwise?

mbaemeka:
He (Jesus) functioned in this world in a corruptible flesh and it changed to Incorruptible when he resurrected. It is the same Immortal flesh that we all would have at his appearing (The Rapture).

The bible records that the same body that was buried rose, no carcass was left. He needed no glorified body. Are you saying you and I will have this same fallen and sinful body when we meet Christ?



If we both agree that Jesus is God- a physical image of the invisible God, How did Jesus come by a corruptible flesh, could it be by birth like you and I?

shdemidemi:

If we both agree that Jesus is God- a physical image of the invisible God, How did Jesus come by a corruptible flesh, could it be by birth like you and I?

The question is not post ressurection but pre-ressurection.NO one is disputing the deity of Christ on this thread. You quoted Paul after Christ ascension. Did Jesus FUNCTIONED as God while on earth? Was HE omnipresent?

Bidam: The question is not post ressurection but pre-ressurection.NO one is disputing the deity of Christ on this thread. You quoted Paul after Christ ascension. Did Jesus FUNCTIONED as God while on earth? Was HE omnipresent?

I was asking questions to make him see the body of Jesus is way different from our sinful body. He had a body void of sin, He was without blemish, He could forgive sins and he could pay the ransom for sin.

To your question-

Jesus came like a man and not as a man. It was the same Jesus who walked the earth that rose, though we no longer know him or worship him from a worldly point of view.

He did function as God in some capacity while he was on the face of the earth and became omnipresent after he resurrected in the form of the Holy Spirit.

John 12

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jesus became that seed that had to be buried to live in all who will believe.

Paul said he saw Jesus like the other disciples, I believe he did see Jesus- the risen Jesus, the same Jesus that was nailed to the cross. So, the pre and post resurrection Jesus are the same but in different forms.

I don't imagine what scripture says

Likeness means likeness.
He was made in likeness of the sinful flesh not flesh. Do you know the difference? Jesus was Flesh and that flesh was LIKE sinful flesh but it wasn't otherwise mbaemeka is Deity since he was made after Deity's likeness. mbaekema are you God?

You are making unnecessary and imaginary distinction between flesh and blood. Jesus flesh and blood was no different from yours just sinless. Teaching that Jesus flesh was blemished BUT his blood wasn't is heretical
Heb 2:14 “Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same.”

mbaemeka: If there is any question you asked me that I evaded please bring them to my knowledge so I can respond. I won't go back and forth with you to discuss very very clear scriptures that need no extra interpretation.

Imagine someone telling me that Romans 8:3 means that it was similar to SINFUL FLESH. Lol. What does it mean that it was similar to SINFUL FLESH except that it was sinful flesh? Man, I tricked you and you took the bait. It said he was made in LIKENESS of SINFUL FLESH and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. This means that his flesh was the same sinful flesh man had and he was made so because of sin so that he could condemn sin in the flesh i.e he could defeat sin by refusing to succumb to it- this is why his body qualified. Even Vooks didn't argue with the scriptures- he simply stretched it to even include Jesus' blood and he is not "WOF" (Whatever the word means).

mbaemeka,
Are you sinless as evidenced by working miracles in Jesus name?

mbaemeka:

Keep your ridiculousness to yourself. I didn't say miracle-working was a ticket to heaven. Behold even Derren Brown works some sort of "miracles" but is it in Jesus' name? No. So if he ends up going to hell how does that line up with what Jesus said?

Baby/Carnal Christians sin. It doesn't change who they are. A christian is a christian and a sinner is a sinner.

Adam had no unique blood from the next man.
God has NO blood, He created blood for Adam and the same for Jesus. So having no earthly Father does not automatically mean that Jesus blood was less human,divine or from heaven. Jesus blood was unique & fit for propitiation in that it was not tainted by sin not because of its 'divine' nature

Does your God have blood?

mbaemeka:

What does this verse have to do with anything?

Adam like Jesus got his blood from his Father- God! It was only that sort of impeccable blood that could have saved mankind. Nothing else.

How do you think human blood would do so?

shdemidemi:

I was asking questions to make him see the body of Jesus is way different from our sinful body.

Heb 4:15 says He was subject to temptations just like any other man that is fleshy i.e He has weaknesses like any common man but He had a choice not to yield to them and that was why He had no sin. Philipians 2:8 even buttressed this by saying He was being found in appearance as a MAN NOT A GOD which is to say He is subject to passions of men. Rom 8:3 that mba emeka quoted was clear enough, i wonder what the argument is about.He was sent in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH.The 'catch' is that he did not commit sin and that was why He was the perfect sacrifice to condemn sin in sinful man.

He had a body void of sin, He was without blemish, He could forgive sins and he could pay the ransom for sin.

We also could forgive sins(mathew 18:35) if someone stole from you or offends you, are you not required as a christian to forgive him or her? Even righteous Stephen forgave the sanhedrin( Acts 7:60). The only thing we could not do is to pay the ransom for sin. Jesus did that once and for all.

To your question-

Jesus came like a man and not as a man.

No. He came AS A MAN( phil 2:9) Paul by revelation called Jesus the LAST ADAM. Adam was a Man not God.

It was the same Jesus who walked the earth that rose, though we no longer know him or worship him from a worldly point of view.

I hope you would hold on to this view of yours because you keep shifting positions that Jesus that appeared under the law is not the same Jesus that appeared to Paul on the road to damascus( remember we have argued about this on this forum). Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever.

He did function as God in some capacity while he was on the face of the earth

He functioned in THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT( Acts 10:38) God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and Power just like the same anointing came upon elijah to decree there would be no rain for 3 and half yrs, and elisha to raise the dead, moses to part the red sea, Peter to cure a cripple and Paul to use handkerchiefs and aprons to heal the sick...these are men of like passions as we are.

and became omnipresent after he resurrected in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Agreed Jesus is ominpresent right now but not as the Holy spirit but as a SON. The 3 bear record. I believe in the trinity, do you? The Holy Spirit is the giver of spiritual gifts. Jesus administer offices like Apostles, prophets, evangelists,teachers,pastors and God WORKS ALL of them in all men( 1 Cor 12:6).

John 12

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jesus became that seed that had to be buried to live in all who will believe.

We are buried with Him through baptism so we could have a NEW life( Rom 6:4).We are also raise with HIm through faith in the Power of God who raise Jesus from the dead ( col 2:12).

mbaemeka

So you’ve turned into a trickster? Well done.
And you keep making statements to cover up your deficiencies.

If there is any question you asked me that I evaded please bring them to my knowledge so I can respond. I won't go back and forth with you to discuss very very clear scriptures that need no extra interpretation.

Imagine someone telling me that Romans 8:3 means that it was similar to SINFUL FLESH. Lol. What does it mean that it was similar to SINFUL FLESH except that it was sinful flesh? Man, I tricked you and you took the bait. It said he was made in LIKENESS of SINFUL FLESH and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. This means that his flesh was the same sinful flesh man had and he was made so because of sin so that he could condemn sin in the flesh i.e he could defeat sin by refusing to succumb to it- this is why his body qualified. Even Vooks didn't argue with the scriptures- he simply stretched it to even include Jesus' blood and he is not "WOF" (Whatever the word means).

Hahahaha @ goof. Joagbaje follows me so he would find it laborious to read my exchange with you because it would appear lengthy to someone who hasn't been following the discussion.

What is actually a big goof is the scriptural references you are making. They are indeed laughable. I clearly stated Jesus didn't sin but his flesh was subject to sin yet you are quoting 1 Peter to me and asking me about biology. Hahahahaha. This is a fiasco of a damage-control. The scriptures didn't say he had likeness of the flesh. It said likeness of SINFUL FLESH. Please try again. Your explanation is dead on arrival (borrowing your words).

The 1 Peter 2: 24 I quoted was to make you see that “he bore our sins in his body on the tree” because he qualified to do that as a result of (1) having no sinful flesh, and (2) living a life free of sin and fulfilling the Father’s plan. Do you get it now?
As the true reality of the Old Testament animal sacrifices (Deut. 17:1) he had to be WITHOUT DEFECT. In his case (Jesus) sin in whatever form would be a defect. If his body was as you said:

He had the sinful flesh but he had sinless blood

that sinful flesh will be a defect.

As per THE WORD that was made FLESH let me repeat myself again maybe by chance you would catch it this time. The scriptures didn't say JESUS was made FLESH. It said the WORD (GOD) was made FLESH. The WORD (GOD) was made a HUMAN BEING and the HUMAN BEING was called Jesus. Do you get it now?

You reference to him calling himself a son makes no sense again. Until Jesus called himself a son of God did you see any MOG or Prophet of old call themselves such? They never did so because to call yourself a son of God was to say you were on par with God. But what does it even have to do with the discussion? I said JESUS DIDN'T FUNCTION AS GOD not that he was not GOD. So please stop trying to save face and answer the questions I have asked you.

Your explanation is thrash on being born again. I explained the Greek rendering. The least you could do was claim the words meant something else or you should have tried to explain the 1 Peter 1:23 that I made reference to. Did Jesus fall down from heaven? Was he not born by Mary? Did you see the Holy Spirit do anything but speak words to her by an angel? What is this cockamamie of a reply from you?

The Jews who heard his statements clearly understood what he was saying. Go back and look at their reactions and ask yourself why they reacted the way did. He was in effect telling them 'I that I'm standing before you I am GOD'

Can anything be clearer than this passage I quoted? –
1 John 3:5 “You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.”
Like I said if you are telling us that Jesus had sinful flesh you are contradicting scripture.
Vooks went further to state that “Teaching that Jesus flesh was blemished BUT his blood wasn’t is heretical”
Look again at the questions I posed: where does the blood flow? Out of the body or inside the body? Related to every cell of the body or separated from them?
Let me add one more: what supplies replenished oxygen from the lungs to the cells?
In simple terms correctly answering these questions will make you see that you cannot make the separation you are trying very hard to do between body and blood.

Stop with your ridiculous claims that are bereft of scriptural backing. There are 2 types of flesh: a mortal one and an immortal one. The mortal is called Corruption or corruptible while the latter is called Incorruption or Incorruptible. So which did Jesus come in? Let us start from there. I expect you to evade this question and then tell me again that he was the lamb of God as if anyone is arguing that. What Jesus used to cleanse sin was his blood and that was what had no sin. Please give me 1 scripture- just 1 saying Jesus' flesh was any different from the corruptible flesh that all men have. I will wait. Besides, what SIN would a lamb have, to be disqualified as a means of atonement in the OT? Did Jesus body not get badly beaten and scourged? Is that not a defect? The defect that lambs were not to have were PHYSICAL for no lamb could have SIN defects (how would the lamb sin? Lol). And this was a SHADOW of the zero ACTS of PHYSICAL sin that Jesus would manifest in the FLESH so as to present his badly battered body worthy of a lamb to be used as the sin-offering.

Jesus had a PERFECT sin free mortal body. A big difference his body had from the flesh all men have is that like you see from 1 John 3:5 his body had no sin.

Mbaemeka don’t behave like a primary one pupil who still has to taught so much. The Old Testament was a SHADOW of the reality. The things there were REPRESENTATIVE ANALOGIES of what was to come. Why would you go on to ask ‘What SIN would a lamb have, to be disqualified as a means of atonement in the OT?’ As the animals were to be without defect in themselves so any man that would qualify to be the sin bearer of mankind had to be without sin through and through – no sin in his body plus no acts of sin.

No offense, but that spin on taking his life and raising it according to John 10 is dumb even for someone like you. Jesus already said he had overcome the world in John 17 and he said a man could receive eternal life by believing in him in John 6 & 10. He was talking faith for none of these had happened or could occur until he died. Faith is the confidence that what you expect is real. (Keyword- what you EXPECT). So try again. What did Jesus mean by greater miracles? Raising Lazarus from the dead and raising himself which was greater?

Read Bidam's post on Salvation involving healing from sicknesses and learn something today as you are bumbling scriptures and digging yourself deeper.

Any miracle was possible for Jesus, any miracle small or big, great, greater or greatest; any miracle was possible for Jesus from the start of his ministry to the end. He was FULLY PREPARED at the start of his ministry to do ALL that he had to do. He was not ‘improving’ as his ministry went on.

It was the people who needed to see him for who he was. Miracles only served a veritable tool to make people see him as the Savior. Accepting him as that (Savior) was more important than physical healing. That is why he never organized nor gave directive for his disciples to organize so called HEALING SCHOOLS.

Trustman
I can understand the artificial security of the greater-than-Jesus-miracles workers. They think since they have driven out devils in Jesus name, heaven is all theirs. In fact, the very ability to do anything in Jesus name to them is the clearest indication of their heavenly citizenship.

Oyaks they have seen him do 'greater-than-Jesus' miracles and to them, that's all proof they need that he is going to heaven. This is what this debate is all about. They are challenging you; 'since Oyaks does miracles in Jesus name, how can he be a sinner?'

From a practical point of view, do the spiritual gifts cease immediately upon falling or even persisting in sin? I don't think so. You will find tongue-speaking fornicators and that's why personally I don't test spirits by the manifestation of the gifts. Ultimately sin drives away the manifestation but it is not instant. So you will find sinners manifesting. By sinner I mean somebody who sins.

Bidam,

Do you agree with mbaemeka that Jesus body was a body of sin like ours?

Because that's the bone of contention.

trustman and demi are trying to show MBA that Jesus was not in the same class with us.

Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit through the Virgin Mary, with the chief aim for his body, when sacrificed, will become acceptable to God for man's sin, as the Lamb of God. Therefore the shedding of the sinless blood became our right to redemption.

Jesus was tempted as Man. He did not and could not fall to sin because he was God and he had no sinful nature.

It is this peculiar nature of Christ that distinguishes him from us, the redeemed. Therefore, while we trust him for all things for life and godliness, we cannot compare ourselves with the Jesus who walked the earth performing miracles and living free of sin.

Those who do this are the ones propagating the error of Word of Faith: an error that has reduced Christ to a mere man and exalted men to be gods.

So beware of what you claim to agree with mbaemkeka posts lest you share in the consequences of his errors.

mbaemeka:

If there is any question you asked me that I evaded please bring them to my knowledge so I can respond. I won't go back and forth with you to discuss very very clear scriptures that need no extra interpretation.

Imagine someone telling me that Romans 8:3 means that it was similar to SINFUL FLESH. Lol. What does it mean that it was similar to SINFUL FLESH except that it was sinful flesh? Man, I tricked you and you took the bait. It said he was made in LIKENESS of SINFUL FLESH and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. This means that his flesh was the same sinful flesh man had and he was made so because of sin so that he could condemn sin in the flesh i.e he could defeat sin by refusing to succumb to it- this is why his body qualified. Even Vooks didn't argue with the scriptures- he simply stretched it to even include Jesus' blood and he is not "WOF" (Whatever the word means).

Snip..,

Permit me to correct this error highlighted above: Let's read what Romans 8:3 says:

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"

The bolded there emphasises that Jesus came in the flesh but only in the likeness of sinful flesh. His body had been kept free from the inborn sin that we've all inherited due to His miraculous conception and virgin birth and then preserved free from committed sin which is evidenced by His holy living while here on earth. Therefore, His flesh was sinless flesh.

Bidam: Heb 4:15 says He was subject to temptations just like any other man that is fleshy i.e He has weaknesses like any common man but He had a choice not to yield to them and that was why He had no sin.

Now, Jesus is God. He is the physical image of the invisible God.. For you to say he had weaknesses like you and I is not only wrong but blasphemous. There was nothing in him that answered to sin.. He was and he is the definition of righteousness.

Jesus did not sin, not because he did not want to but because there was no sin in him. HE IS GOD.

Bidam: Philipians 2:8 even buttressed this by saying He was being found in appearance as a MAN NOT A GOD which is to say He is subject to passions of men.

Wrong interpretation...

phil 2:8 signified what he was in the eyes of men, which is the outwardly perceptible shape and mode of his existence.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (like a man and not as a man bidam)

Bidam:
Rom 8:3 that mba emeka quoted was clear enough, i wonder what the argument is about.He was sent in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH.The 'catch' is that he did not commit sin and that was why He was the perfect sacrifice to condemn sin in sinful man.

Think deep broo... how can God come to earth as a man. If he had come as a man he would not only die but decay. He came like a man. Committing sin was never an option, He is God.

Bidam: We also could forgive sins(mathew 18:35) if someone stole from you or offends you, are you not required as a christian to forgive him or her? Even righteous Stephen forgave the sanhedrin( Acts 7:60). The only thing we could not do is to pay the ransom for sin. Jesus did that once and for all..

The sort of forgiveness we are talking here isn't taking offense from what a fellow man had done to you. It is what God does in the old testament, it is the act of remittance or cancelling sins committed against God. It is the deliverance of the sinner from the punishment of sinful conduct.

Jesus was not forgiving someone who offended him, He stepped into the realm of God to forgive what the fellow might have done in secret or in his thoughts. What use is my forgiveness to you, if God does not forgive you?

Bidam:
No. He came AS A MAN( phil 2:9) Paul by revelation called Jesus the LAST ADAM. Adam was a Man not God.

The last Adam because God came in to the world like Adam. He came without a sin nature.

The first Adam was made by the second Adam in His likeness. Every other man came in the likeness of the first Adam (fallen Adam) until the second Adam came into the world, circumventinting birth process by coming without the copu-lation between a man and a woman.

Bidam:
I hope you would hold on to this view of yours because you keep shifting positions that Jesus that appeared under the law is not the same Jesus that appeared to Paul on the road to damascus( remember we have argued about this on this forum). Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever.

I have never said Jesus who died isnt the same Jesus who rose, never.

All I say is that the message of grace hid in his parables were revealed after he resurrected by a mouth piece he appointed specially to the gentiles.

Bidam:

He functioned in THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT( Acts 10:38) God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and Power just like the same anointing came upon elijah to decree there would be no rain for 3 and half yrs, and elisha to raise the dead, moses to part the red sea, Peter to cure a cripple and Paul to use handkerchiefs and aprons to heal the sick...these are men of like passions as we are.


Agreed Jesus is ominpresent right now but not as the Holy spirit but as a SON. The 3 bear record. I believe in the trinity, do you? The Holy Spirit is the giver of spiritual gifts. Jesus administer offices like Apostles, prophets, evangelists,teachers,pastors and God WORKS ALL of them in all men( 1 Cor 12:6).

We are buried with Him through baptism so we could have a NEW life( Rom 6:4).We are also raise with HIm through faith in the Power of God who raise Jesus from the dead ( col 2:12).

[/quote]

Isn't Jesus and the Holy Spirit one?

I don't even know where to begin from. I thank God for Bidam ooooo. Chaii.

shdemidemi:

The bible records that the same body that was buried rose, no carcass was left. He needed no glorified body. Are you saying you and I will have this same fallen and sinful body when we meet Christ?



If we both agree that Jesus is God- a physical image of the invisible God, How did Jesus come by a corruptible flesh, could it be by birth like you and I?

Jesus didn't function as God before his resurrection. Heffunctioned as a man. I wish you would start from the beginning of the discussion. I have tabled more than 20 scriptures to that effect.

Jesus had the normal flesh that all men had before he died. If he didn't he won't have died for the Immortal flesh cannot die.

shdemidemi:

I was asking questions to make him see the body of Jesus is way different from our sinful body. He had a body void of sin, He was without blemish, He could forgive sins and he could pay the ransom for sin.

To your question-

Jesus came like a man and not as a man. It was the same Jesus who walked the earth that rose, though we no longer know him or worship him from a worldly point of view.

He did function as God in some capacity while he was on the face of the earth and became omnipresent after he resurrected in the form of the Holy Spirit.

John 12

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jesus became that seed that had to be buried to live in all who will believe.

Paul said he saw Jesus like the other disciples, I believe he did see Jesus- the risen Jesus, the same Jesus that was nailed to the cross. So, the pre and post resurrection Jesus are the same but in different forms.

Can you show me any scripture that says Jesus body was without blemish? Besides, Paul never met a physical Jesus post resurrection for Jesus is seated on the throne of God. Paul met the Holy Spirit who appeared like Jesus but this is talk for another day.

vooks: I don't imagine what scripture says

Likeness means likeness.
He was made in likeness of the sinful flesh not flesh. Do you know the difference? Jesus was Flesh and that flesh was LIKE sinful flesh but it wasn't otherwise mbaemeka is Deity since he was made after Deity's likeness. mbaekema are you God?

You are making unnecessary and imaginary distinction between flesh and blood. Jesus flesh and blood was no different from yours just sinless. Teaching that Jesus flesh was blemished BUT his blood wasn't is heretical
Heb 2:14 “Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same.”

Join shdemidemi in providing one scripture that says Jesus flesh was unblemished.

vooks: Adam had no unique blood from the next man.
God has NO blood, He created blood for Adam and the same for Jesus. So having no earthly Father does not automatically mean that Jesus blood was less human,divine or from heaven. Jesus blood was unique & fit for propitiation in that it was not tainted by sin not because of its 'divine' nature

Does your God have blood?

Your reasoning is right but you are directing it at the wrong person and I am surprised 2 people liked your post given that this has been my point concerning Jesus blood all along which is that like Adam, Jesus received the blood he had from God and as such it was sinless blood but we know Jesus body was gotten from Mary. It wasn't created like Adam's.

If you think otherwise please show me the scriptures. I will retract my statements.

Bidam: Heb 4:15 says He was subject to temptations just like any other man that is fleshy i.e He has weaknesses like any common man but He had a choice not to yield to them and that was why He had no sin. Philipians 2:8 even buttressed this by saying He was being found in appearance as a MAN NOT A GOD which is to say He is subject to passions of men. Rom 8:3 that mba emeka quoted was clear enough, i wonder what the argument is about.He was sent in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH.The 'catch' is that he did not commit sin and that was why He was the perfect sacrifice to condemn sin in sinful man.

We also could forgive sins(mathew 18:35) if someone stole from you or offends you, are you not required as a christian to forgive him or her? Even righteous Stephen forgave the sanhedrin( Acts 7:60). The only thing we could not do is to pay the ransom for sin. Jesus did that once and for all.
No. He came AS A MAN( phil 2:9) Paul by revelation called Jesus the LAST ADAM. Adam was a Man not God.

I hope you would hold on to this view of yours because you keep shifting positions that Jesus that appeared under the law is not the same Jesus that appeared to Paul on the road to damascus( remember we have argued about this on this forum). Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever.

He functioned in THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT( Acts 10:38) God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and Power just like the same anointing came upon elijah to decree there would be no rain for 3 and half yrs, and elisha to raise the dead, moses to part the red sea, Peter to cure a cripple and Paul to use handkerchiefs and aprons to heal the sick...these are men of like passions as we are.
Agreed Jesus is ominpresent right now but not as the Holy spirit but as a SON. The 3 bear record. I believe in the trinity, do you? The Holy Spirit is the giver of spiritual gifts. Jesus administer offices like Apostles, prophets, evangelists,teachers,pastors and God WORKS ALL of them in all men( 1 Cor 12:6).

We are buried with Him through baptism so we could have a NEW life( Rom 6:4).We are also raise with HIm through faith in the Power of God who raise Jesus from the dead ( col 2:12).

Very correct and word-based. Exactly what I have been saying. God bless you.

WinsomeX: Bidam,

Do you agree with mbaemeka that Jesus body was a body of sin like ours?

Because that's the bone of contention.

No, rather what i see as the bone of contention was romans 8:3 he quoted, which was Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Trustman claimed Jesus came as a deity, shdemidemi tried to put a twist to it that Jesus came like a man while vooks said Jesus was human. It will be a great injustice to scripture if you ONLY talk about the divinity of Jesus neglecting a whole plethora of scriptures that talks about his HUMANITY.

trustman and demi are trying to show MBA that Jesus was not in the same class with us.

Pls..Pls we are in the same class with Jesus. He is our elder brother, i agree He is not our mate but as long as He is the first begotten from the dead, we as born again christians are like Him..our goal is to become christ-like. It is a journey of faith. I wonder why you guys like to run away from scriptures that says as He is so are we in this world and loads of pauline epistles that talks about becoming like Christ.Haba!

Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit through the Virgin Mary,

We as believers are born of the Holy Spirit. The only diff. Is that we are born TWICE.(physical and spiritual) Jesus was born ONCE.

with the chief aim for his body, when sacrificed, will become acceptable to God for man's sin, as the Lamb of God. Therefore the shedding of the sinless blood became our right to redemption.

Note: the blood was shed for our sins.Paul said we ARE JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD not his body( Rom 5:9) It was Peter that said by HIS BRUISE we were healed.The healings were physical not spiritual. The 39 stripes represents every form of sicknesses and diseases introduced by sin into the world.

Jesus was tempted as Man. He did not

He did not fall into sin.Correct

and could not fall to sin

Wrong. He could fall into sin, He just choose not to, He had a free will like any other man. Adam to was created perfect yet he choose to sin. He wasn't deceived by the devil, scripture records it was the woman that was deceived not Adam.

because he was God

Can you quote a scripture that says Jesus exists as God in heaven before He died? He exists as the Word. You cannot separate God from his Word.

and he had no sinful nature.

Adam has no sinful nature. It was as a result of Adam's rebellion Sin entered the world.Adam was a pattern of the Last Adam to come. Jesus came in the Likeness of sinful flesh..lets not try to water this truth down by our eisegesis and funny theologies..The 'catch' was that He OBEYED God all through His lifetime thereby making many righteous.

It is this peculiar nature of Christ that distinguishes him from us, the redeemed.

Which nature are you clothed with presently? The nature of Christ or the nature of carnality? It is through Christ we are also Peculiar, Peter said so in 1 pet.2:9. Pls read your bible properly rather than argue blindly.

Therefore, while we trust him for all things for life and godliness, we cannot compare ourselves with the Jesus who walked the earth performing miracles and living free of sin.

Jesus is the Word of God..and it is the Word of God that should serve as the basis of comparism, not comparing ourselves with ourselves. We look unto Jesus to be like Him..This is a scriptural reality, it is never a heretical doctrine to be like Christ, maybe you should argue that with Paul and the Holy Spirit.

Those who do this are the ones propagating the error of Word of Faith: an error that has reduced Christ to a mere man and exalted men to be gods.

Na you sabi, i didn't even grace your ressurected WOF thread. I just stood at the sidelines laffing my head off.

So beware of what you claim to agree with mbaemkeka posts lest you share in the consequences of his errors.

No, i think i should beware of folks like you who see scriptures as fables and myth or cunningly devise fables written to deceive the elect.We are witnesses of His majesty. I see with the eyes of my heart, i don't swallow everything i read online, like the berean i check to verify it.

Smith wigglesworth said " some people read their bibles in hebrews, some in greeks. I like to read mine in the Holy Ghost. I think i will follow the wise instructions of wigglesworth.

mbaemeka:

Can you show me any scripture that says Jesus body was without blemish? .

If Jesus is God (I believe we both agree He is) and we know God is good, could a corruptible flesh house God?

don't worry yourself about my convo with Bidam... this was my question to you before he came in-

The bible records that the same body that was buried rose, no carcass was left. He needed no glorified body. Are you saying you and I will have this same fallen and sinful body when we meet Christ?



If we both agree that Jesus is God- a physical image of the invisible God, How did Jesus come by a corruptible flesh, could it be by birth like you and I?

mbaemeka:
Paul never met a physical Jesus post resurrection for Jesus is seated on the throne of God. Paul met the Holy Spirit who appeared like Jesus but this is talk for another day.

When the bible says Jesus is seated on the throne, does that mean he is literally sitting in a chair?

Holy Spirit appeared like Jesus! where did you get that?

mbaemeka:

Jesus received the blood he had from God and as such it was sinless blood but we know Jesus body was gotten from Mary. It wasn't created like Adam's.

Where are you getting these things from?

trustman:

So you’ve turned into a trickster? Well done.
And you keep making statements to cover up your deficiencies.




The 1 Peter 2: 24 I quoted was to make you see that “he bore our sins in his body on the tree” because he qualified to do that as a result of (1) having no sinful flesh, and (2) living a life free of sin and fulfilling the Father’s plan. Do you get it now?
As the true reality of the Old Testament animal sacrifices (Deut. 17:1) he had to be WITHOUT DEFECT. In his case (Jesus) sin in whatever form would be a defect. If his body was as you said:

that sinful flesh will be a defect.



The Jews who heard his statements clearly understood what he was saying. Go back and look at their reactions and ask yourself why they reacted the way did. He was in effect telling them 'I that I'm standing before you I am GOD'

Can anything be clearer than this passage I quoted? –
1 John 3:5 “You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.”
Like I said if you are telling us that Jesus had sinful flesh you are contradicting scripture.
Vooks went further to state that “Teaching that Jesus flesh was blemished BUT his blood wasn’t is heretical”
Look again at the questions I posed: where does the blood flow? Out of the body or inside the body? Related to every cell of the body or separated from them?
Let me add one more: what supplies replenished oxygen from the lungs to the cells?
In simple terms correctly answering these questions will make you see that you cannot make the separation you are trying very hard to do between body and blood.




Jesus had a PERFECT sin free mortal body. A big difference his body had from the flesh all men have is that like you see from 1 John 3:5 his body had no sin.

Mbaemeka don’t behave like a primary one pupil who still has to taught so much. The Old Testament was a SHADOW of the reality. The things there were REPRESENTATIVE ANALOGIES of what was to come. Why would you go on to ask ‘What SIN would a lamb have, to be disqualified as a means of atonement in the OT?’ As the animals were to be without defect in themselves so any man that would qualify to be the sin bearer of mankind had to be without sin through and through – no sin in his body plus no acts of sin.



Any miracle was possible for Jesus, any miracle small or big, great, greater or greatest; any miracle was possible for Jesus from the start of his ministry to the end. He was FULLY PREPARED at the start of his ministry to do ALL that he had to do. He was not ‘improving’ as his ministry went on.

It was the people who needed to see him for who he was. Miracles only served a veritable tool to make people see him as the Savior. Accepting him as that (Savior) was more important than physical healing. That is why he never organized nor gave directive for his disciples to organize so called HEALING SCHOOLS.

Let me prove to you that your interpretation of 1 John 3:5 to mean Jesus body had no sin or was different is not just blatantly wrong but also a lie. We can proceed to see that he said "whoever abides in him DOES NOT sin" vv.6 "whoever sins has neither seen him vv.6b (which means Peter didn't see the body of Jesus because Peter denied him). Whoever has been born of God DOES NOT sin vv.9 and he CANNOT sin because he has been born of God vv.9b (which means Peter wasn't born of God and Adam wasn't born of God either for they both sinned).

Your interpretation is wrong! When that verse said in him was no sin it was saying Jesus spirit had no sin (hence IN HIM), Jesus blood had no sin (IN HIM). That's why he went further to say he DID NOT sin too. And not that his flesh was any different.

As for the rest of the nonsense you posted. I would only respond to it if it comes from another moniker for I don't know how else to explain to you that Jesus is God but he didn't FUNCTION as God before his death.

mbaemeka:

Jesus didn't function as God before his resurrection. Heffunctioned as a man.

can a man forgive the sins of a fellow man?

could any man call himself a son of God before Jesus did?

can a normal man be aware of his being even before the patriarchs were?

If your answers to these questions is no, then Jesus was more than just a man when he walked the face of the earth.

mbaemeka:
Jesus had the normal flesh that all men had before he died. If he didn't he won't have died for the Immortal flesh cannot die.

Did he leave the normal flesh behind after he left the scene or did he resurrect with the normal flesh?

will you resurrect with your normal flesh like he did?

Romans 8:3 CEB

God has done what was impossible for the Law, since it was weak because of selfishness. God condemned sin in the body by sending his own Son to deal with sin in the same body as humans, who are controlled by sin.

Romans 8:3 GNT

What the Law could not do, because human nature was weak, God did. He condemned sin in human nature by sending his own Son, who came with a nature like our sinful nature, to do away with sin.

OLAADEGBU:

Permit me to correct this error highlighted above: Let's read what Romans 8:3 says:

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"

The bolded there emphasises that Jesus came in the flesh but only in the likeness of sinful flesh. His body had been kept free from the inborn sin that we've all inherited due to His miraculous conception and virgin birth and then preserved free from committed sin which is evidenced by His holy living while here on earth. Therefore, His flesh was sinless flesh.

the inborn sin of a natural man is it in his flesh or in his Spirit and blood? As for the Romans 8:3 let me flood you with other translations maybe you would get it. They are above the post ^^^.

shdemidemi:

Now, Jesus is God. He is the physical image of the invisible God.. For you to say he had weaknesses like you and I is not only wrong but blasphemous. There was nothing in him that answered to sin.. He was and he is the definition of righteousness.

Jesus did not sin, not because he did not want to but because there was no sin in him. HE IS GOD.





Wrong interpretation...

phil 2:8 signified what he was in the eyes of men, which is the outwardly perceptible shape and mode of his existence.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (like a man and not as a man bidam)



Think deep broo... how can God come to earth as a man. If he had come as a man he would not only die but decay. He came like a man. Committing sin was never an option, He is God.

I wish you started from the beginning. All these things you are saying have been thrashed out. For example, vv6 of Philippians 2 that you made reference to said Jesus knew it was no robbery to be equal with God BUT he made himself of no reputation (no privileges, rights, dignity). The BUT at the beginning of vv.7 says it all. He made himself to FUNCTION like a man.

Can God die?
will God pray?
Can God grow in wisdom?

shdemidemi:

The sort of forgiveness we are talking here isn't taking offense from what a fellow man had done to you. It is what God does in the old testament, it is the act of remittance or cancelling sins committed against God. It is the deliverance of the sinner from the punishment of sinful conduct.

Jesus was not forgiving someone who offended him, He stepped into the realm of God to forgive what the fellow might have done in secret or in his thoughts. What use is my forgiveness to you, if God does not forgive you?



The last Adam because God came in to the world like Adam. He came without a sin nature.

The first Adam was made by the second Adam in His likeness. Every other man came in the likeness of the first Adam (fallen Adam) until the second Adam came into the world, circumventinting birth process by coming without the copu-lation between a man and a woman.




I have never said Jesus who died isnt the same Jesus who rose, never.

All I say is that the message of grace hid in his parables were revealed after he resurrected by a mouth piece he appointed specially to the gentiles.




Isn't Jesus and the Holy Spirit one?

Read John 20:23 and explain it to me. Forgiveness of sin is different from remission of sin. Jesus was responsible for Remission but he gave us the right to forgive sins.