chukwudi44:

Please those of you criticizing the catholic church ,I have few questions for you,

What happened to the church left by the apostles?

what year were they obliterated and by whom?

When did the roman Catholics take over and who was he first pope?

Remember Jesus said ''the gates of hell shall NEVER prevail against it(his church)''

so how come the early church were obliterated by the roman catholics or is Jesus telling a lie?

Chukwudi,

U're asking these questions based on the assumption that the church the apostles established and left was the Catholic church.That is still in debate, so ur questions don't hold water.

The church the apostles left was that fashioned after the bible's accounts, not that as portrayed by the Catholics.Peter was never a pope.Roman Catholicism came about as a result of steady deviation from the faith by some set of people with their own convictions about the word of God.

Below is another belief of the Catholics:

" It is said: And the Virgin's name was Mary. Let us speak a little about this name which means: star of the sea and which befits admirably the Virgin Mary. Therefore she really is this noble star born of Jacob whose beams enlighten the whole world. If the winds of temptations arise, if you run into the rocks of tribulations, look at the star, invoke Mary. If you are tossed about by the waves of pride, ambition, betrayal and jealousy, look at the star, invoke Mary.If anger or avarice or the seductions of the flesh shake the little boat of your soul, look at Mary. If, troubled by the enormity of your crimes, confounded by the uncleanliness of your conscience, frozen with fright at the thought of judgment, you start to be swallowed up by the gulf of sadness and the abyss of despair, think about Mary.
In perils, in anguish, in doubt, think about Mary, invoke Mary.May she not depart from your mouth, may she not depart from your heart and, to obtain the succor of the prayer, do not neglect the example of her life.
If you follow her, you do not go astray.
If you pray to her, you do not despair.
If you consult her, you are not wrong.
If she supports you, you do not fall.
If she protects you, you fear nothing.
If she leads you, you do not tire.
If she is favorable to you, you reach your aim.
And thus you experience on your own with what reason it has been said:
And the Virgin's name was Mary."
(Saint Bernard, The name of Mary)

See how they took what was ascribed to Jesus alone and placed it on Mary.The prophesy of Balaam spoke about Christ;the star  out of Jacob was in reference to Christ and not Mary.

Numbers 24:17-19
(17)  I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
(18)  And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall be a possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly.
(19)  Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.

christianity owes its existence to the roman catholic church ,if not for the crusades under taken by the church the whole of europe and indeed the entire world would have been islamised by now.rather than being  criticized ,the catholic church should be commended for it's role in the growth of christianity

Mr ttalks,
you did not provide answers to any of my questions

We can trace the history of the RCC to the last Living Apostle John.just goggle this early christian leaders ;st ignatius of antioch,polycarp of smyrna,clement of rome,st irenaeus,tertulian,st justin matyr.

I dont think God will allow the devil to take over the church he personally founded.Mind you up 65% of christian population today are catholics(ROMAN AND EASTERN CATHOLICS COMBINED)

More than 70% of Christians dont believe in sola scripture(CATHOLICS,ANGLICANS,LUTHERANS ).Pentecostals just woke up in the 19th century and now wants us to forget about church history and depend on the bible alone.

which bibles did the apostles use?

The apostles taught every day by way of mouth ,should we now ignore all the teachings because they were not written down?

Is written scripture superior to oral scripture?

should we ignore divine revelations because there are not in the bible ?

we know that the bible only told us that God created heaven and earth and made no mention of mercury,mars and other planets ,does it mean they don't exist?

What happened to the church left by the apostles?

Nothing happened to the Church except that it almost was pushed ino non existence by the swarming of false faiths.

what year were they obliterated and by whom?

See the reply above.They were not obliterated but rather pushed into the backgrounds by the roman catholics.

When did the roman Catholics take over and who was the first pope?

The roman Catholics took over sometime after the establishment of the gospel and the church;based on the swarming of their false doctrine.Their first Pope? It certainly wasn't Peter.

Remember Jesus said ''the gates of hell shall NEVER prevail against it(his church)''

so how come the early church were obliterated by the roman catholics or is Jesus telling a lie?

See my previous answer where I said, the church was never obliterated,only pushed into the background.Do you know what  to prevail in that context  means?It means to win or overcome totally,completely; not partially or partly.
Jesus Christ did not lie.He said the gates of hell will not prevail against his church.That can be seen in the fact that the church;though beat down into almost non existence in the past, is still in existence more today and will continue to exist.
It is also interesting to note that Christ said that in the last days,many will depart from the faith;meaning that it would only be a few that would be left to be called the church.Not the many who seem to think that they are the church.

As i said before,ur questions are based on the assumption that the roman catholic church is the church.I said that it is still in debate(although it is already a settled matter for some of us what the church was and still is) therefore,ur questions don't hold water.

But at least I've provided some reasonable answers for u.

Is written scripture superior to oral scripture?

Written scripture and oral scripture are compatible and are in agreement with each other.They are just two different forms of passing across the same message;not contradictory,different or alien messages.

should we ignore divine revelations because there are not in the bible ?

We ignore revelations when they do not agree or are not compatible with Scripture/the bible.

we know that the bible only told us that God created heaven and earth and made no mention of mercury,mars and other planets ,does it mean they don't exist?

Psalm 8:3(KJV)
(3)  When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Psalm 8:3(CEV)
(3)  I often think of the heavens your hands have made, and of the moon and stars you put in place.

Sorry,the bible does mention the planets and other heavenly and celestial bodies.So,we know they exist based on the bible and based on physical evidence too.

N/B: Heavens- shaw-mah'-yim, shaw-meh'
The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).
(Strong's bible dictionary)

chukwudi44:

christianity owes its existence to the roman catholic church ,if not for the crusades under taken by the church the whole of europe and indeed the entire world would have been islamised by now.rather than being  criticized ,the catholic church should be commended for it's role in the growth of christianity

This is very true.

This is what our Lord and Saviour, the author and finisher of our faith has to say to those who exalt and uphold their church tradition above the Word of God.

Matthew 15:1-9

Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Consider these Scriptures:

* "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple." [Psalm 19:7] Obviously, God expects the "simple" to comprehend His Scripture.  Notice there is no inference that people cannot understand Scripture by themselves.

* "The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple." [Psalm 119:130]

* "The proverbs of Solomon ,  To give subtlety to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion." [Proverbs 1:1, 4]

* "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward ,  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ." [Ephesians 3:1, 4]

* In 1 Peter 2:5, and 9, all the saints are called a " royal priesthood".  Then, when you understand that the New Covenant of Jesus Christ inaugurated a New Covenant which abolished the old Priesthood of the Old Testament [Hebrews 7:11-25 and 8:5-13, especially verse 13], thus cancelling the Old Covenant of the Old Testament, and abolishing all priests.  From this point on, there were no more priests to "interpret" the Scripture; people were expected to hear it read and understand the plain language of it.

Since all this is true, since God expects men and women of all ages to hear, or read, His Word and understand its plain language, then we should expect that God would take great care to protect His Word from contamination or misinterpretation. Indeed, God did take steps to prevent this kind of corruption.

Consider the Scriptures below:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought [take away] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God , " [Deuteronomy 4:2]

"What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." [Deuteronomy 12:32]

"Every word of God is pure ,  Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." [Proverbs 30:5-6] Notice here that anyone who adds to or takes away from God's pure Word is called a "liar".

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." [Revelation 22:18-19]

Therefore, we can see three distinct warnings against adding to or taking away the Words of God from His Holy Bible.  The Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' day were the leaders of a religious system which was called The Traditions of the Elders, a system which Jesus attacked with all His might, and condemned to the highest degree.  In this Tradition of the Elders, the priests and scribes had created a parallel "Scripture" to God's Holy Word.  Jesus condemned it because it changed, perverted the true meaning of God's Word, as given to Moses and the Prophets.  Listen to Jesus condemn this Traditions of the Elders.

"Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? ,  Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition." [Matthew 15:3-6]

"Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?  He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.  Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.  [Mark 7:5-7]
Do you see that Jesus said that anyone who observes the Tradition of the Elders, they are worshipping Him in VAIN?

Now, listen to Jesus continue with His condemnation of this Tradition:

"For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men ,  and many other such like things ye do.  And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."  Did you get this statement?  Jesus is saying that Jews who keep the Tradition of the Elders are, in reality, rejecting the commandments of God?

Now, listen to the Apostle Paul condemn the Traditions of the Jews:

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." [Colossians 2:8] Here, we see the Apostle Paul stating that the Tradition of Men spoil the hearer, and lead him or her to the world not to Jesus Christ.

The Apostle Peter warns his followers along these same lines, as well.  Listen:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers" [1 Peter 1:18] Notice here that Peter calls the Tradition of the Fathers "vain conversation".

The Roman Catholic Church has created a system of priesthood that is roughly parallel to the priesthood of the Old Testament, even though the writer to the Hebrews clearly states, above, that this Old Covenant was abolished when Jesus instituted His New Covenant.  But, more importantly, the Roman Catholic Church has also created a parallel system of interpretations, which they revealingly call the Traditions of the Fathers, or the Church.  They have then told their parishioners that this parallel Traditions is equal with the Scripture in importance and weight.  Thus, they are equally guilty before Jesus Christ in " teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" [Mark 7:7].  Thus, they are practicing as vain a worship as Jesus told the Pharisees they were practicing in Mark 7:6, above.

Thus, by creating this parallel system, the Roman Catholic Church is[b] guilty of adding to the pure Word of God[/b] [Proverbs 30:5-6].
http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/rc101.htm

very unsafe

ttalks,

the "true" you said was merely pushed aside ,could you please name it.

If they catholic church was wrong and the protestants right how come instead of merely having 2 denominations (protestants and roman catholics),Today we have more than 40,000 differant denominations with differant set of beliefs.

The catholic church is only attacked because of the size of their population,the more you attack us they stronger we shall become .

since the catholic church is "evil" I would recommend all the protestant pastors in the world to organize 3 days special fasting to pull down the church , that way I am sure God will not ignore your prayers

@chukwudi44

talk another thing and stop challenging, better still why don't you conduct your 3 day fast and let the others go to hell eh? the argument here is tradition above bible. the protestants also have some unscriptural practices but that is not the topic here.

@ Omenuko

Its very late over here, just came back from hanging with friends. But before we continue, I just want to ask where are you getting these quotes? Are you just copying and pasting them from another site or are they a result of your research and study. Many of the quotes that you are posting (the ones portraying Catholics) seem to be out of context.

Don't worry the quotes were taken from the very words of the leaders of the RCC over a period of time that were collated. Besides, what difference would it make if information was sourced from other sites? The more the merrier.

"it is plain that the apostles did not pass everything unto us through their letters,many things have come to us orally.Hence let us look to the tradition of the church as the subject of our belief.when such and such a doctrine is tradition,look no further"-st John chrysostom(345-407AD)


"let us suppose that the apostles had left us no hidden records.Would we not have been able to follow the precepts of tradition that they handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?"-st irenaeus(AD 175)

st John chrysostom was the best bible teacher of his generation.
st irenaeus was a disciple of polycarp of smyrna ,who was personally baptised by apostle John

If you ask any Catholic friends at what point did the now Roman Catholic denomination became universal it would be interesting to hear what is said. The bible predicted the arrival of the false church that would dominate and persecute. Are you Catholics aware that the Roman Catholic organization has fulfilled every iota of Bible prophecy since its official inception?

Daniel 7; Revelation 12,13,17 all spoke of a power that would arise to oppose God's teachings and God's people. Histroy is on our side. It so happens that the RCC fits the characteristics of the prophecies.

This constant argument about the RCC being responsible for the preservation of the bible is debatable, but even if it were it doesn't take away from the truth that God could have still allowed His word to be preserved despite the evil intentions of the opposing body.  

I'd be the first to acknowledge that not all the priests and officials in the then Catholic church were evil. The bible says God has His people in all denominations, but they will be exposed to truth and forced to make a decision for truth in its entirety.

The prophecies are as plain as day, and the history to support them couldn't be plainer. In a nutshell let me summarize:

1. Daniel 2 starts with Nebuchadnezzar's dream of an image in 4 metal parts hinting at 4 world kingdoms starting with his own kingdom of babylon to be followed by Media-Persia, Greece, and finally Rome.

2. Daniel 7 repeats the king's vision but the symbols used were 4 beasts namely a 2-winged lion; a lap-sided bear; a 4-winged leopard; and an undescript beast that confused Daniel.

3. This non-descript beast that resembled nothing ever witnessed by humans, including Daniel, represented Rome which was the 4th kingdom to rule the world.

4. Because Daniel 7 was an extension of Daniel 2, God revealed additional information to the prophet concerning the 4th beast Rome. Daniel noted that the 4th beast had 10 horns which in themselves symbolized 10 kingdoms.  Daniel also noticed that 3 of those horns were rooted up as an 11th horn grew.  Daniel went on to describe this 11th horn that had:

- the eyes of a man
- and a mouth speaking blasphemies against God
- persecuting power
- power to reign and persecute God's people for 3 1/2 symbolic years or 1260 literal years

It is this 11th horn that represents Papal Rome or Vatican which sprang up among the 10 barbarian tribes, or what we now call European nations, as soon as pagan Rome went into demise. History reveals that as soon as the Papacy established itself it used crusades to annhilate from the fac of the earth 3 of the original 10 kingdoms, and these were:

1. the Astrogoths

2. the Heruleans

3. the Vandals

These kingdoms were destroyed because they disagreed with the RCC on the nature of Christ. Once again religion became the dominant force for conflict and bloodshed.

Revelation 12 and 13 are basically reminders of what Daniel previously predicted. In these books similar, as well as additional information is given about the opposing body that comes in the form of a church. The Popes and Pontifs are no different in intentions from the former Roman Caesars. Read it for yourselves:

", superior papal authority and dominion is derived from the law of the Caesars." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #19, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.

Pope Pius IX, in his "Discorsi" (I., p. 253), said:  "The Caesar who now addresses you, and to whom alone are obedience and fidelity due."

So the RCC officially began in AD538 and came to a temporary end in AD1798 when Napolean Bonaparte under the revolution brought the church to its knees. Its pope was placed into exile and eventually died. Revelation 13 predicted that one of its head would have been wounded, and it became so in AD 1798, exactly 1260 years according to bible prophecy.

But didn't the prophecy also say that the deadly wound would have been healed? Yes. Italy under Moussilini re-established the RCC, and gave it the vatican city which according to the prophecy would rest on 7 hills. Its all there.

The prophecy goes on to say that this persecuting body in the form of a church will once again dominate not just Europe, but the whole world under a New World Oder that is being worked out as we speak.

Dear bible believers time is not on our side. We need to study God's word and live for Christ. We need to carry the saving grace of Jesus Christ to a dying world for sooner than you think Jesus will come again.

If you want more specifics about the prophecy I will be glad to share more details.

chukwudi44:

"it is plain that the apostles did not pass everything unto us through their letters,many things have come to us orally.Hence let us look to the tradition of the church as the subject of our belief.when such and such a doctrine is tradition,look no further"-st John chrysostom(345-407AD)


"let us suppose that the apostles had left us no hidden records.Would we not have been able to follow the precepts of tradition that they handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?"-st irenaeus(AD 175)

st John chrysostom was the best bible teacher of his generation.
st irenaeus was a disciple of polycarp of smyrna ,who was personally baptised by apostle John

Confused men;the both of them.

So based on what/whose standards was st. John Chrysostom the best bible teacher of his generation?Catholic standards or probably the general populace who were under the influence of catholic teachings?

Being the best bible teacher does not guarantee that you teach the truth because that grading;best,could be based on false and irregular standards.

So does the fact that st Irenaeus being a disciple of polycarp of smyrna,who was personally baptised by apostle John,guarantee that his teachings are infallible?
Look at what you base ur convictions on!! Pathetic!!!

Glory to Jesus

Honour to Mary

Pamperme:

Glory to Jesus

Honour to Mary

Did this girl read anything posted here at all?

Perhaps, and she decided to break the ice,

Bobbyaf,

I think it would be cool for u to give more specifics on the prophecy.Let's all view it and see what we can make out of it.And it would also be nice to get the source where u got the info relating most of the details of the prophecy to the Roman Catholic Church.It would help in viewing things on a very broad note.
Thanks.

Interesting debate here, one of the very few debates on this section free of personal attacks and emotional outburst.

Nice work guys!!

Bobbyaf:

If you ask any Catholic friends at what point did the now Roman Catholic denomination became universal it would be interesting to hear what is said. The bible predicted the arrival of the false church that would dominate and persecute. Are you Catholics aware that the Roman Catholic organization has fulfilled every iota of Bible prophecy since its official inception?

Daniel 7; Revelation 12,13,17 all spoke of a power that would arise to oppose God's teachings and God's people. Histroy is on our side. It so happens that the RCC fits the characteristics of the prophecies.

This constant argument about the RCC being responsible for the preservation of the bible is debatable, but even if it were it doesn't take away from the truth that God could have still allowed His word to be preserved despite the evil intentions of the opposing body.  

I'd be the first to acknowledge that not all the priests and officials in the then Catholic church were evil. The bible says God has His people in all denominations, but they will be exposed to truth and forced to make a decision for truth in its entirety.

The prophecies are as plain as day, and the history to support them couldn't be plainer. In a nutshell let me summarize:

1. Daniel 2 starts with Nebuchadnezzar's dream of an image in 4 metal parts hinting at 4 world kingdoms starting with his own kingdom of babylon to be followed by Media-Persia, Greece, and finally Rome.

2. Daniel 7 repeats the king's vision but the symbols used were 4 beasts namely a 2-winged lion; a lap-sided bear; a 4-winged leopard; and an undescript beast that confused Daniel.

3. This non-descript beast that resembled nothing ever witnessed by humans, including Daniel, represented Rome which was the 4th kingdom to rule the world.

4. Because Daniel 7 was an extension of Daniel 2, God revealed additional information to the prophet concerning the 4th beast Rome. Daniel noted that the 4th beast had 10 horns which in themselves symbolized 10 kingdoms.  Daniel also noticed that 3 of those horns were rooted up as an 11th horn grew.  Daniel went on to describe this 11th horn that had:

- the eyes of a man
- and a mouth speaking blasphemies against God
- persecuting power
- power to reign and persecute God's people for 3 1/2 symbolic years or 1260 literal years

It is this 11th horn that represents Papal Rome or Vatican which sprang up among the 10 barbarian tribes, or what we now call European nations, as soon as pagan Rome went into demise. History reveals that as soon as the Papacy established itself it used crusades to annhilate from the fac of the earth 3 of the original 10 kingdoms, and these were:

1. the Astrogoths

2. the Heruleans

3. the Vandals

These kingdoms were destroyed because they disagreed with the RCC on the nature of Christ. Once again religion became the dominant force for conflict and bloodshed.

Revelation 12 and 13 are basically reminders of what Daniel previously predicted. In these books similar, as well as additional information is given about the opposing body that comes in the form of a church. The Popes and Pontifs are no different in intentions from the former Roman Caesars. Read it for yourselves:

", superior papal authority and dominion is derived from the law of the Caesars." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #19, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.

Pope Pius IX, in his "Discorsi" (I., p. 253), said:  "The Caesar who now addresses you, and to whom alone are obedience and fidelity due."

So the RCC officially began in AD538 and came to a temporary end in AD1798 when Napolean Bonaparte under the revolution brought the church to its knees. Its pope was placed into exile and eventually died. Revelation 13 predicted that one of its head would have been wounded, and it became so in AD 1798, exactly 1260 years according to bible prophecy.

But didn't the prophecy also say that the deadly wound would have been healed? Yes. Italy under Moussilini re-established the RCC, and gave it the vatican city which according to the prophecy would rest on 7 hills. Its all there.

The prophecy goes on to say that this persecuting body in the form of a church will once again dominate not just Europe, but the whole world under a New World Oder that is being worked out as we speak.

Dear bible believers time is not on our side. We need to study God's word and live for Christ. We need to carry the saving grace of Jesus Christ to a dying world for sooner than you think Jesus will come again.

If you want more specifics about the prophecy I will be glad to share more details.

This Prophecy post on the Catholic Church, reminded me of something I came across on youtube a while,

I’ll post the argument for and against and I’d really love opinions on it.


Arguments for
Part 1
[flash=425,344]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpa6npXQoY&hl=en&fs=1[/flash]

Part 2
[flash=425,344]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toBOML5W4uQ&hl=en&fs=1[/flash]


Argument Against
[flash=425,344]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKKuPaxk8uU&hl=en&fs=1[/flash]

I apologize in advance if this turns out to be off topic!

@ttalks

please am still waiting name the "true" church that was merely pushed aside

"we can count up to those who were appointed bishops in the churches by the

apostles,and their successors down to us ,none of them has taught this doctrine.But as it

would be tidious to enumerate the succession of bishops in the differant churches,we refer

you to the tradition of that GREATEST,most ancient and universally known church

founded at Rome by st peter and st paul, which has been preserved there through the

succession of thir Bishops."-st irenaeus 175 AD



"That doctrine is evidently true that whichn was first delivered.On the contrary,that is false

which is of a later date.This maxim standsimmovable against the attempts of all late

heresies.Let such such then produce origin of their churches :let them show the succesion

of their bishops from the apostles ,or their disciples.If you live near italy,you see before

your eyes the the Roman church:happy church to which the apostles have left the

inheritance of their DOCTRINES with their blood ,where peter was crucified,like his

master:where paul was beheaded like the baptist.If this be so,it is plain,as we have

said ,that heretics are not allowed to appeal to the scriptures,since thy have no claim to

it."-tertullian160-220AD
de praes,hareas

ttalks,
mind you st irenaeus was not just a disciple of polycarp of smyrna,but also Bishop of lyons and one of the early church fathers.
Let me ask you this question ,does being with the apostles make the teachings of st paul infallible?
remember he was not even one of the twelve ,but yet had the greatest impact on christianity.

st irenaeus went on to list the names of the popes down to to Eleutherius(AD174-189)
who was living when he wrote hios work 'adversus haeres(against the heretics)

chukwudi44:

@ttalks

please am still waiting name the "true" church that was merely pushed aside

The true church of God does not have any name if u think it does.Not like the RCC.
The true church of God is just what it is;the Church.
What does the church comprise of?
All those who believed in Jesus Christ and were baptized into his body by the Holy Spirit.
The Church is the body of Christ,not the RCC.
The church is made up of different people distributed all over the world who have eternal life through Jesus Christ.

"we can count up to those who were appointed bishops in the churches by the

apostles,and their successors down to us ,none of them has taught this doctrine.But as it

would be tidious to enumerate the succession of bishops in the differant churches,we refer

you to the tradition of that GREATEST,most ancient and universally known church

founded at Rome by st peter and  st paul, which has been preserved there through the

succession of thir Bishops."-st irenaeus 175 AD

The church founded at Rome was not by Peter;it was founded by Paul. This is according to the bible. This makes st Irenaeus accounts contradictory with the bible's and that makes him an unreliable source of truth.The church was founded in Jerusalem and it was by Peter and the other apostles;not exclusively Peter. That established in Rome came up later and this was through Paul.

ttalks,
mind you st irenaeus was not just a disciple of polycarp of smyrna,but also Bishop of lyons and one of the early church fathers.
Let me ask you this question ,does being with the apostles make the teachings of st paul infallible?
remember he was not even one of the twelve ,but yet had the greatest impact on  christianity.

Paul's teachings are infallible because they agree with the rest of the scripture which were written by other apostles.However, st Irenaeus teachings contradict scripture/the writtings of the apostles.

It's you I should be asking that:Does the fact that st Irenaeus being a disciple and Bishop make his teachings infallible?
Don't we have Bishops and teachers and priests and Pastors whose teachings cannot be accepted?
Their teachings cannot be acceped because they do not agree with scripture.
Paul's teachings agree with scripture;that is why his teachings are infallible.

Besides, the argument that Peter was the rock on which Christ built His church is false. The word Peter in Greek means pebble, or small stone. The theme of the whole bible is Jesus, and He is the one referred to as the rock. The rock that Moses struck twice instead of once represented Christ.

The irony of it all is that Peter himself in the very same chapter that Christ referred to him as blessed rebuked Christ for reminding them of His suffering. At that point Christ called him Satan because as usual he was allowing the devil to use him, just as he allowed the devil to use him when he denied Christ later on at the trial.

If anything this chapter revealed more than ever the weakness of Peter, and that he could not have been the foundation upon which Christ would build His church. If only Catholics would read the scriptures and ask for the Holy Spirit's guidance rather than listen to nonsense from their priests, things would be so different.

Listen to Matthew 16:18 "And I also to you say that you are Πέτρος and on this πέτρᾳ I will build My Church, and the gates of Hades will not have power over it.

Christ knew exactly what Peter was and He reminded him, but He also gave Peter the assurance that the very statement that he made concerning who Christ was, would be the foundation or rock on which the church would survive. As long as persons kept in mind at all times who Jesus really was, then the church would be able to overcome any unslaught, or attack that Satan would unleash upon the church.

The fact that Peter was not even in charge of the Jerusalem council speaks volumes. It was James who became the chairman. So where was Peter? Where was this man when Jesus was captured? And long after Pentecost Peter was rebuked by Paul for not standing up against Jewish bigotry, after God sent a message to Cornelius through him explaining that God is no respecter of persons, and that all nations under God are seen as the same.

@ Sisi Jinx

I watched the videos, and they are very much on topic. The first two I saw before, but not the third. The attempt at defense by the speaker in the third video wasn't convincing.

He tries to associate the LovePeddler with Jerusalem, but all that was from the past. What John saw pertained to the future from his time. Besides, Jerusalem didn't commit fornication with the whole world, and neither did she sit on a beast as described in Revelation 17.

Besides, there are other factors in the prophecy that he failed to have noticed, in that Revelation 17 is just an extension of Revelation 13. In most cases when God reveals important information He often does so in phases. Each new vision or revelation tends to develop from the previous, so in actual reality the prophet is usually given a little more each time.

So his attempt was lame if you ask me.

@ Ttalks

Bobbyaf,

I think it would be cool for u to give more specifics on the prophecy.Let's all view it and see what we can make out of it.And it would also be nice to get the source where u got the info relating most of the details of the prophecy to the Roman Catholic Church.It would help in viewing things on a very broad note. Thanks.  Wink

I will provide more details, but I am not too sure I'd like to expose the website I got the information from lest the enemy of souls motivate Naughty Boys to try and cause problems for the site,    ,  I hope you understand.

Concerning the prophecy against the RCC.

Daniel 2
It begins with Daniel. As a matter of fact most of the important prophecies seem to have started there. As I previously said Nebuchadnezzar king of Neo Babylon had a dream of an image divided up in 4 metallic parts, and each part represented his kingdom and 3 future kingdoms that would follow. The image looked somewhat like this:




So the golden head = Babylon which ruled from 705BC to 539BC
two arms & breast of sliver = Media Persia which ruled from BC539-Bc331
Thighs of brass or bronze = Greece which ruled from BC331 - BC169
Legs of Iron = Rome which ruled from NC169 - AD467
feet of Iron and Clay = 10 nations or smaller kingdoms that sprang up after Rome's collapse.

As you know from further chapters the king built a golden statue because he wanted Babylon to rule forever, and he ordered for all peoples and nations to bow down. Of course the faithful ones refused.

Now in chapter 7 Daniel himself had a fresh dream but this time he saw 4 beasts which might have looked like these:



No doubt the lion represented Babylon at the time, and its 2 wings represented the speed with which it came into power. Remember Babylon was called Neo Babylon whose foundation was the old Assyrian nation.

The bear with one side raising higher than the other symbolized the twin kingdoms of the Medes & Persia, but eventually Persia became the dominant kingdom. The 3 ribs in the bear's mouth represented 3 colonies under Persia.

The leopard with 4 heads and 4 wings represented Greece under Alexander the Great. The 4 wings reveals that his kingdom spread rapidly and was established faster than any other. The 4 heads represented the 4 generals, and divisions of Greece after Alexander's death. He died at age 33 after becoming so drunk he died of a fever.

The non-descript beast represented Rome that ruled the longest and was the most feared kingdom just as was described in chapter 7. It started out with 10 horns among which grew a little horn that increased in size and while it grew it uprooted 3 others leaving itself and 7 others. As can be seen from the picture it also had the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke blasphemies. Notice too that this little horn came after imperial Rome. Bear in mind that the 10 horns represented the rise of 10 smaller kingdoms after Rome's demise which was the birth of modern Europe.



History has it that the little horn power (the RCC) started out officially in AD538, although there were Roman bishops around before that. The term catholic which means universal was not yet applied. According to Daniel's prophecy it would rule and persecute and blaspheme for 3 1/2 times, or symbolic years which amounted to 1260 symbolic days, and as most scholars are aware each day in prophecy means 1 literal year.

So in actual reality the RCC would rule for 1260 literal years. John the apostle's revealtion pointed out the same time period in chapter 13. let us read as follows:

Revelation 13:5, "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Now 42 symbolic months represents 1260 years if you calculate the math.

42 X30 days =1260 days = 1260 years.

Notice how John describes the beast in the same manner, and notice also that the beast is a blend of the beasts mentioned in Daniel's 7. What does that mean? It means that the same pagan tendencies would have passed down to the RCC, because all of those kingdoms were pagan. The RCC has baptised paganism to dress it up so that it can become acceptable to the people. How have they managed to get away with it? Simple! People look to the priests instead of reading their bibles. John says they have become drunk with the harlot's wine, or doctrines. They are in a stupor.

Revelation 13 description of the RCC

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Sea here means a very large population. Revelation uses water to represent peoples and nations, etc. The RCC first started in Europe which had the greater of the world's population.

2: And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

The beast was a composite of the previous beasts in Daniel 7. It is pagan in nature but poses as a church. The dragon represents 2 entities. Primarily it represents Satan, but secondarily it represents pagan Rome. If you notice the RCC got its power from pagan Rome in the form of power transfer. Their own literature confesses that reality:

", superior papal authority and dominion is derived from the law of the Caesars." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #19, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.

Pope Pius IX, in his "Discorsi" (I., p. 253), said: "The Caesar who now addresses you, and to whom alone are obedience and fidelity due."

3: And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

This wound occurred in 1798 under Napoleon Bonaparte exactly 1260 years after its AD358 official inception. Between 1798 and 1929 the catholic church existed without an official pope. In fact at one satge there were three candidates fighting over power. Mussulini eventually installed the pope and gave him the Vatican city in 1929 thus healing the wound. Incidentally this city is built in 7 literal hills as pointed out in the prophecy.

4: And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The RCC grew once again and allows Satan to recieve worship by her false idols and pagan practices she has installed in worship. She is way more powerful than we can imagine.

5: And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

See details above

6: And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

The priesthood system under the RCC has violated the High Priesthood ministry of Jesus Christ. It has blasphemed God's name by literally using holy titles that only belong to God. The whole of heaven is offended when priests teach that Jesus' literal body is re-crucified at the mass. They have made a mockery of the crucifixion of our LORD Jesus Christ.

7: And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

If nothing else proves this prophecy true its the manner in which bible-believing Christians were murdered by the millions by the RCC. Babies were cut from pregnant mothers; Children and mothers were given their father's flesh to eat; I could go on and on.

The remaining verses point out the role of the US in helping the beast to gain a stronger foot hold. I will attend to that another time. Initially though America is represented as a lamb which later became a dragon. This US according to the prophecy will create an image of the first beast mentioned in the opening verses of Revelation 13.

In essence the beast represents a union of church and state The US as it were will create the conditions for church and state to combine their efforts in solving the world crisis, but it has to begin at the US first. The current US economic mess is only a planned device to make way for a change in the US constitution so that church and state can mix as it was in Europe.

The first beast = church and state in Europe

The image of the beast = church and state starting in the US and spreading over the globe using war and economics as weapons.

The US = lamb like beast initially when it stood for peace and freedom. The pilgrim fathers all migrated away from popery to the land of the free. Notice too that just as Europe started having its wars and civil uprisings, the lamb like beast was just forming. Recall that Napolean's revolution was just about the time that the US was developing its own constitution. It was a very youthful and powerful nation on the rise.

Trust me fellow Christians, including Catholic Christians this is for real. The prophecies are sure. God's words cannot fail.

I am not here to score religious points against those with whom I disagree. I am here to share what I have come to know through prayerful study of God's words. I make no claim to fame, and I am not anymore righteous than any other man. I too need prayer and encouragement as I journey to the kingdom.

My only desire is to see souls saved in God's kingdom.

nice work bobbyaf

@Bobbyaf

I will provide more details, but I am not too sure I'd like to expose the website I got the information from lest the enemy of souls motivate Naughty Boys to try and cause problems for the site, , I hope you understand.

deleted

Thank you guys. I need your prayers. Its never easy having to speak bluntly to other Christians who sincerely believe that their worship is true.

I hope that as we share that sincere Catholics who are genuinely seeking God will see where we are coming from and flee like Lot did before the destruction comes.

The books of Daniel and Revelation are interesting books to study.

Sea here means a very large population. Revelation uses water to represent peoples and nations, etc. The RCC first started in Europe which had the greater of the world's population.

This assertion is very false, With the population of places like China, India and the whole of Asia, Africa and the Americas(North and South), I know for sure that Europe has never at any time in the history of the world had the greater percentage of the world's population. This assertion is not true.

Posted by: bindex

This assertion is very false, With the population of places like China, India and the whole of Asia, Africa and the Americas(North and South), I know for sure that Europe has never at any time in the history of the world had the greater percentage of the world's population. This assertion is not true.

First of all don't compare populations of different nations today as against what they were over 2000 years ago. It so happened that Europe then at the time the RCC was developing was the most centered place. They were the most dominant of nations. That was the place to be so to speak.

But let's say for argument sake that there were other crowded regions, it still wouldn't affect the prophecy that the RCC came out of a more populated region at first, than say the US which came out of a less populated region. The chapter says that the lamb-like beast came out of the earth signifying a less populated region.