Kashif:


You are mixing it up friend. It is ignorance that will make you say that BM's 240hp is more powerful (and efficient) than a Toyota's 269hp. A meter is a meter; 1kg mass is 1kg mass; Jupiter or Pluto.

We are talking about raw engine power, and not drive trains. A 500hp is always a 500hp, be it from BM, Kia, or Bugatti. There are many other factors that can affect what a hp does to a vehicle - like transmission, propulsion, rims/tyres, weight, earodynamics, etc.

Thanks for the effort though.

I'll leave this here for you to read,

This F30 328i was tested on EAS (European Auto Source)'s Dynojet 224xLC and put down an impressive 226hp / 230lb-ft torque (at the wheels), with just 91 octane gasoline.

What does this equal to at the crank (for comparison to BMW's factory quoted power figures for the 2012 328i)? Assuming a 15-17% drivetrain loss, this dyno result translates to approximately 265-272hp / 270-277lb-ft torque at the crank, or +25-32hp and +15-22lb-ft torque more than the factory figures!

If you didn't understand the above, ill leave the dictionary explanation of Underrated

underestimate the extent, value, or importance of (someone or something)

Further reading - http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/modp-1005-drivetrain-power-loss/

lungwun:

I'll leave this here for you to read,
If you didn't understand the above, ill leave the dictionary explanation of Underrated
Further reading - http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/modp-1005-drivetrain-power-loss/

You need to quit ingesting subjective info.

Hps are determined using SAE standards at the crank, and that's what we are talking about. You did not read where I said other factors come into play after the crank?

N20B20 gets 240hp at the crank, and 2GR-FE gets 269hp at the crank. Granted that the rpms vary, but these do not change if driven with stock ECM, tuning and manufacture's recommended RON.

If you want to have fun with crank vs wheel hp, the link below would help.

http://www.mk5cortinaestate.co.uk/calculator4.php

Bring on points, and stop digressing/distracting with elementary definitions. I am not saying the 2GR-FE is the most powerful 6 banger, as there are many more powerful ones out there. What you need to show me is the one that beats it in performance and efficiency. Your teachers must have had a hell of time

lungwun:


Lmao! Now ask yourself, Don't you find it strange 269Hp propels a Camry to 60 at 5.7-5.8 seconds whilst 240hp propels a 3 series to 60 in 5.5 seconds?

Everyone (well, except you) knows BMW is rather conservative with HP figures. So their 240hp is more powerful and efficient than Toyota's 269hp.

Let me even break it down further for you. The Camry (XV50) weighs 1,551 kg and the North American 328 (F30) weighs 1570kg.

So, the heavier, under-powered BMW is faster than the lighter Camry in both 0 - 60 sprints and quarter mile times.

What were you saying about efficiency again?

There is a reason why CAMRY is a 5.7sec car and a BMW is a 5.5 sec car. A CAMRY isn't sports/performance bias tuned. It is tuned for efficiency and high MPG economy while operating smoothly. A BMW is sports tuned. The engine of a car alone can't make the car run fastest. Rather the final drive ratios of the gears. If Toyota wishes to make the camry go faster, they will easily do that via tweaks. The CAMRY is a FWD so higher HP and Torques and aggressive gears will result in dangerous torque steer.

Kashif:



You need to quit ingesting subjective info.

Hps are determined using SAE standards at the crank, and that's what we are talking about. You did not read where I said other factors come into play after the crank?

N20B20 gets 240hp at the crank, and 2GR-FE gets 269hp at the crank. Granted that the rpms vary, but these do not change if driven with stock ECM, tuning and manufacture's recommended RON.

If you want to have fun with crank vs wheel hp, the link below would help.

http://www.mk5cortinaestate.co.uk/calculator4.php

Bring on points, and stop digressing/distracting with elementary definitions. I am not saying the 2GR-FE is the most powerful 6 banger, as there are many more powerful ones out there. What you need to show me is the one that beats it in performance and efficiency. Your teachers must have had a hell of time

Take a look at GM current corporate 3.6l v6 very good engine at 300hp

sultaan:


Take a look at GM current corporate 3.6l v6 very good engine at 300hp

And that's what am looking for! This has bested the 2GR......

lomomike:

There is a reason why CAMRY is a 5.7sec car and a BMW is a 5.5 sec car. A CAMRY isn't sports/performance bias tuned. It is tuned for efficiency and high MPG economy while operating smoothly. A BMW is sports tuned. The engine of a car alone can't make the car run fastest. Rather the final drive ratios of the gears. If Toyota wishes to make the camry go faster, they will easily do that via tweaks. The CAMRY is a FWD so higher HP and Torques and aggressive gears will result in dangerous torque steer.

All my Toyota brothers are out in full force today.

The 2gr is tuned for efficiency you say, all I wanted to prove was that with the advancements in engine technology, a smaller 2 litre turbo charged inline 4 is just as efficient, quick and has high mpg whilst destroying the larger engine in performance.

I know about gearing and final drive ratios but my point still stands, he asked for an engine more efficient and I gave him one. One that was created whilst Toyota sat on their past reputation with gullible clients who kept drinking the kool-aid.

I could have responded with Mercedes turbo 2.0 in the CLA & GLA 45 AMG,
i could have introduced Volvos super charged and turbo charged inline 4,
I could also have introduced Subaru's turbo boxer 4 in the WRX and WRX STi
All new engines pushing the boundary of automotive excellence,
but I kept it simple to show that Toyota needs a new engine.
And you guys started the square dance.

where and how did you guys learn all this

lungwun:


All my Toyota brothers are out in full force today.

The 2gr is tuned for efficiency you say, all I wanted to prove was that with the advancements in engine technology, a smaller 2 litre turbo charged inline 4 is just as efficient, quick and has high mpg whilst destroying the larger engine in performance.

I know about gearing and final drive ratios but my point still stands, he asked for an engine more efficient and I gave him one. One that was created whilst Toyota sat on their past reputation with gullible clients who kept drinking the kool-aid.

I could have responded with Mercedes turbo 2.0 in the CLA & GLA 45 AMG,
i could have introduced Volvos super charged and turbo charged inline 4,
I could also have introduced Subaru's turbo boxer 4 in the WRX and WRX STi
All new engines pushing the boundary of automotive excellence,
but I kept it simple to show that Toyota needs a new engine.
And you guys started the square dance.

Bro, 2GR is a naturally aspirated engine. Why measure it against turbos? You are trying very hard to score a point with your beamer engine, but onions and tomatoes are not same. Saw sultaan's post? That's what we are talking about!

Kashif:


Bro, 2GR is a naturally aspirated engine. Why measure it against turbos? You are trying very hard to score a point with your beamer engine, but onions and tomatoes are not same. Saw sultaan's post? That's what we are talking about!

aha, lungwun was right about the efficiency of that BMW engine afterall, since you just got to know that the engine is a turbo and not a naturally aspirated one.

Kashif:


Bro, 2GR is a naturally aspirated engine. Why measure it against turbos? You are trying very hard to score a point with your beamer engine, but onions and tomatoes are not same. Saw sultaan's post? That's what we are talking about!

Exactly my point! Almost every car manufacturer is heavily invested in turbocharging to increase engine efficiency and power (Which was the initial premise behind the argument). But not Toyota, who are quite happy using the same engine for years on end.

You set the premise for this merry dance by asking and i quote.

I would like to know another engine that combines its power with efficiency.

To which i supplied a fairly modern engine that ergonomically combines power & efficiency.
Then, like a politician, you started looking for caveats, the most recent being NA vs Turbo.

Not only is the GM engine superior to your precious Toyota but the mightiest Japanese engine of them all, The VQ is also better than the 2GR.

Counter point - This (VQ37) is also not an all-new engine because it is a bored out version of the VQ35

And to Sultaan's GM engine suggestion (LFX), that is also an evolution of the LY7 which debuted in 2004. Created by tweaking of the Cylinder heads and manifolds, which any one could do by himself to any of his cars if he had the time, money and a working browser to buy aftermarket manifolds on Ebay.


Hopefully this has been enlightening to everyone and i would like to see more of such civil discussions and topics on Nairaland that every one can chime in on. Rather than the deluge of
X car vs Y car
X accident on Y roads

And all the other rubbish posts around these parts. Maybe that would get car people like Siena and the rest of them more active on here as it's gone to the dogs lately.

Special mention to Kashif who kept it civil through out. Other nairalanders would have resorted to verbal insults.

Connoisseur:
where and how did you guys learn all this

To be honest, I dont wrench or do serious DIY but i read and read and read. Thats most likely how i learnt all of this

Talking about efficiency, how do you measure the efficiency of an engine...is it from its indicated power, or just the bhp/litre ratio?

I know Toyota,Nissan, Mitsubishi and Honda are some of the last major manufacturers that have not come out with a replacement engine for their V6 and V8.

Ford, GM, KIA, VW no longer offer V6 in their midsize car,all use a small turbo getting 270hp. They can get more but that is the most you want to put in a FWD car

Toyota is still within CAFE because the volumn of Corolla and camry sold keep them within CAFE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy#MY_2012-2016_Obama_Administration_proposal

Soon they will have to stop the V6 and start a turbo engine

So sometimes to stay legal you cut models that does not meet their CAFE limit they might bring them back with a turbo 4 and hybrid

yungboss:

aha, lungwun was right about the efficiency of that BMW engine afterall, since you just got to know that the engine is a turbo and not a naturally aspirated one.

I should have categorically stated 'naturally aspirated', but thought it was common sense.

yungboss:
Talking about efficiency, how do you measure the efficiency of an engine...is it from its indicated power, or just the bhp/litre ratio?

It is the latter, but efficiencies are typically measured on vehicles.

lungwun:



To be honest, I dont wrench or do serious DIY but i read and read and read. Thats most likely how i learnt all of this

i wouldnt mind reading some of the stuff you read.
i want to be like you

Not for me per see, I've outgrown Hondus (sp), but I think the model got a bad rap.