Whose lives did the bombs save exactly?

It was just an example and I have no wish to go in-depth in the subject here but:

http://hnn.us/articles/52353.html

The Shockly-Wright effort "to determine to what extent the behavior of a nation in war can be predicted from the behavior of her troops in individual battles" concluded that: "If the study shows that the behavior of nations in all historical cases comparable to Japan's has in fact been invariably consistent with the behavior of the troops in battle, then it means that the Japanese dead and ineffectives at the time of the defeat will exceed the corresponding number for the Germans.   In other words, we shall probably have to kill at least 5 to 10 million Japanese.  This might cost us between 1.7 and 4 million casualties including 400,000 and 800,000 killed."

Every single author agrees that an invasion of Japan would have cost the US more war dead and casualties than in the whole of the preceeding war. The top figure given there is over twice as many. That is without even taking into account the horrendous figure that Japan would have lost.

As at the time those bombs were dropped everyone in the US Govt knew Japan was going to surrender a month or so earlier.

There was a rumour of a conditional surrender. But a rumour was all it was and a conditional surrender was unacceptable. Japan's "fight to the last bullet" attitude totally contradicted any rumours anyway.


I'll leave it there because as I said, it's not something that warrants going in-depth in this thread.
But what it does do is illuminate the grey area between good and evil. You see it as an evil. I see it as an evil that was necessary for good to come about or to stop a bigger evil from happening.

Hi again Bastage

No they are not real. But they are feasible and have been used as philospical question about morality for years.
You say that you will answer them but I can't see an answer. You say that God will guide you but what I'm looking for is an explanation of who you would save and why (if you would save anyone at all).

I have given you an aswer but it is obvious that the philosophical question was posed to elicit a definite answer. I keep to my original answer since the scenario is not real and besides it assumes that the scenario is an independent event and not a small part of a continum. In my declaration of God guiding me lies a deeper answer to the puzzle you posed. I have nothing more to add to it.

Is winning a war not saving the lives of those on your side. There's no doubt that the atomic bomb was dropped because US war planners had calculated that millions would die if Japan had to be physically invaded

If you are in Hiroshima or Narkasaki, you may re-examine wheather the drop of atomic bomb saved lives.

But I'll bet your decisions are almost (if not entirely) identical to those based on the system of morality. Don't you think that's a bit of a coincidence?

No, my decisions are not based on morality as the world knows it. Morality only takes account of shadows, that is, visible actions and words. It has no access to physically invisible realities like motives, intent, thoughts, imagination, much less the spiritual will. If one is capable of silencing the human mind and the human brain, then thoughts, imagination,feelings, words and earthly visible actions will be silence, and the spiritual will will become clear. It is the spiritual will that determines evil or good. That has been the crux of my point.

Unfortunately this has not been bourne out by history. Mankind's sense of good and evil has changed over the years. What may be seen as wrong in some evil in some cultures may be seen as goodness in others. By taking your interpretation, one would have to say that the spiritual goalposts have moved.

It is the sense of good and evil that changes but not good and evil. Their is a difference between what is and how different people percieve what is. The perception of what is, is a reflection of the spiritual maturity of each culture. It is like a light source of precise intensity. If you are very far away from the source of the light, it looks dim, the closer you get, the brighter it gets and yet the intensity remains the same. Thus it is not the goal post that was moved but it is that some cultures are so far away from the goal post that they do not even see it and as the move closer to the goal post, such cultures the see the goal post. If you have undergone an inward experience that moves you, you will actully see people you know differently, even seasons will look different to you. Spring, summer winter or autum have not changed but your inward experience changed your sense or perception of people and seasons.

That doesn't make sense. If you are a Christian (however you use the term), you must have based some large part of your belief system around the New Testament. Even if you say that you don't rely on books, you cannot deny that you have at least been influence

It is ok if it does not make sense. There is no doubt that the bible contributed to my spiritual development. But my belief is based on personal spiritual experiences.

I do not deny that there are extremes of what we consider evil and extremes of what we consider to be good and that they stand in the black and white areas. But there are shades of grey and these have concerned philosophers and law-makers for millenia.
You bring up falsehood. What if someone tells a lie because they know that a tragedy will be averted - let's say Jane tells John that she can't find his car-keys when he is unfit to drive because of alcohol, even though she has them in her pocket. She has told a lie and committed an evil act has she not? But in doing so, she may have saved John's life. Is she guilty of evil? I would propose that she has stopped an evil - if she had told the truth and given John his keys, he may even have got in his car and run down an innocent bystander.
We cannot deny that there are shades of grey.

Philosophers should pray for spirtual experience and their intellectual puzzles will fade away. Let our words be simple and true even in the most insiginificant matters. Again the example you cited is dealing with shadows and not with the spirtual will that caused the shadows (visible actions and words). Yes she lied and even though her lie might have saved the friends life, that does not change the lie to good. It is just that in this case her intent is to save his friends life and that will mitigate the consequences of her lie but not annul it or change it to good. The guiding principle of true love is to live in such a way as not to harm the body, mind, soul, spirit or even the reputation of your neighbour in the fufilment of your desires. If one is not sure wheather what he is to do is evil or good, one should pray for spirtual guidance and the calrification will come. In the case you mentioned the right attitude is for Jane to tell the truth and still prevent John from driving. Their are several options to stop John from driving without lieing about car keys. Most importantly, the problem here is alcoholism and Jane shoud help John to overcome this evil propensity. If not they have just postponed the car crash. Thanks again for your well reasoned inputs and stay blessed.

Divine guidance sounds to me like an Excellent Answer. Exactly how I would hope to answer myself.

what are you guys feeding on.
Horse shit or what?

@m_nwankwo
I have to ask questions that may seem a little naive. It's not to be 'challenging', as I realise a few people have the amazing ability to wrap a tone of voice aroung black and white letters. I'm merely curious. And why shouldn't I be? Your ideas are, I don't know, interesting? Some I 'get',like people's thoughts colouring the environment and influencing unseen events, how owning a gun might attarct a situation where you'll have to use it, which might not happen if you didn't own a gun in the first place,etc. Other ideas are downright bizarre. I've been trying to restrain my curiousity about the past lives you say you've experienced and can recall, and other stuff. However, I am going to ask questions you might consider 'hard'. Would you prefer I don't?

@Mad_Max

Hi,

@m_nwankwo,

You say good and evil isn't sometimes relative, and yet the cold hard reality of our lives is that it is. There are things we would all agree is evil,no matter the spin. A man beating a child to death for no other reason than he could, say. Others things appear to be a matter of perception. All killing except in self defence is murder, you say? What if the above mentioned man were caught and, as punishment for his crime, the judge issues him a death penalty.The guy's killed. He didn't attack the judge and the judge isn't defending himself, and yet he's ordered a man killed, by the power vested in him by the state. Since it isn't self-defence, by your defintion the judge's commited murder,right? What about the men carry out the judges's orders and put the man to death? And I see in the Old Testament God would tell Israelites to kill. And not in self-defence either. By your definition that makes the Old Testament God what? Or are those parts of the Bible doctored as well? I hope you're not saying whichever parts of the bible fits in with your beliefs are genuine, but those that don't, are not?If there are aspects of the bible that aren't legit,and I agree no book is human-proof, surely you must have verifiable proof that meddling took place?

Yes, good and evil are not relative for one who is spiritually alive. It certainly is for those who use their mind and brains for jugement and many human beings fall into that category. As I have repeatedly said on this forum if one is confronted with a situation in which one is in doubt of what is good or evil, then pray to God for guidance and the guidance will come in very clear unambigous way.

Ones earthly position does not take away his personal responsibilities. A judje is responsible to God for all his judjements and he cannot claim protection because he is following the law of the land. If the laws of the land contradicts what a judje knows to be against the commandment of God, then the judje should quit his job and find something else to do. The same applies to all profession. Thus in the case you mentioned the Judje is also guilty of murder for no human being or nation has the right to terminate the life of another. Thus capital punishment is against the laws of God. No only the Judje is guilty but all human beings who in thought want the criminal to be hanged. When they depart this life they will be shocked at what awaits them. Just another example. A young woman is raped in London and people including contributes in nairaland condem such atrocity. Unknown to the condemers, they have contributed to the rape by harbouring lustful thoughts. The lustful thoughts find a willing tool in the rapist in London. Spiritually, the rapist and all human beings that harbour lust are guilt of the rape.

No, God does not kill nor tell anybody to kill. The laws of God return to each person, each nation, the fruits of their seeds. When men oppose the will of God, that opposition is the seed and at maturity, the fruit of the seed returns to the originators and destroy them.   The commandment of God is "Though shall not Kill" and their are no exceptions. Thus wheather it is in the old or new time if a man or a nation say that God ordered them to kill, then they need spiritual help.

If my points on things that are in the bible does not agree with your soul, then ignore them. Each person should only accept what his or her soul has personally recognised. If deep within you spirit you believe that everything in the bible is true, then hold on to it. I just offer my views and you are welcomed to agree, disagree or ignore them. Stay blessed

Mad_Max:

@m_nwankwo
I have to ask questions that may seem a little naive. It's not to be 'challenging', as I realise a few people have the amazing ability to wrap a tone of voice aroung black and white letters. I'm merely curious. And why shouldn't I be? Your ideas are, I don't know, interesting? Some I 'get',like people's thoughts colouring the environment and influencing unseen events, how owning a gun might attarct a situation where you'll have to use it, which might not happen if you didn't own a gun in the first place,etc. Other ideas are downright bizarre. I've been trying to restrain my curiousity about the past lives you say you've experienced and can recall, and other stuff. However, I am going to ask questions you might consider 'hard'. Would you prefer I don't?

You can ask any question. I will aswer and where I do not know or do not wish to answer, I will say so. Stay blessed.

Yes, good and evil are not relative for one who is spiritually alive.

Each person should only accept what his or her soul has personally recognised.

Would you agree that spirituality is relative to each individual?
If so and spirituality is the way you make your judgement, good an evil cannot be anything else but relative.

I know this always bothered me a bit when I was a christian because I always thought the role he had to play was very important to the salvation of christians

@why asking silly question when you are no longer a christian? Even if the right answer is given you will still remain the likes of Banon, okija_juju, thetruth and the rest of them. since you are no longer a christian, i dont't think christian things will be pleasant or useful to you.

your question is irrelevant.

Judas Iscariot?
which one? The one in the Bible?

how on earth am i supposed to know if he was a retard or a fool
i dunno. ask Peter, Simon and co if u can reach them

asinine topics

Interesting question, great contributions.

And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve. - Luke 22:3

After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly." - John 13:27

Still Baffles Me Any help guys?

Hello guys,
Those who are not comfortable with the topic can kindly move on.
@max, nwankwo & bastage
Can you kindly give drive your points home to the thread my head is spinning.

The people who knew him said that he was a thief,a villian used of the devil and better if he had not been born

Image123:

The people who knew him said that he was a thief,a villian used of the devil and better if he had not been born

And would you be saved today without this thief

Whether Judas Iscariot is a hero or a villian is 'questio disputatis'. He fulfilled what was ordained. He betrayed the son of God. His actions led to the salvation of mankind. He played a major role in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Though he regretted his deed, he went too far by taking his life. Yet he fulfilled God's words. Think of it!

Guess he is in heaven now?!

hmmmm, free thinkers are taking over Nairaland

Chrisbenogor:

Hello guys,
Those who are not comfortable with the topic can kindly move on.
@max, nwankwo & bastage
Can you kindly give drive your points home to the thread my head is spinning.

Hi Chris. I have made my point and that is: Jesus the son of God was not sent to die but to bring the Truth to humankind. And that his betrayal and crucifiction is not the will of God but a sacrilegious murder pepatrated by man against God. Thus the shedding of his blood did not atone for humankind sins but burdened humankind with a grevious sin. No sane parent on earth will murder his own son or daughter for any reason and yet men expect or rather demand that God should sacrifice his son so that our load of sins will be washed away by that sacrifice. If it is the will of God for Jesus to die for the salvation of men, why did Jesus and God condem people like Judas who was an instrument to the fufillment of the will of God according to this train of thought. If the crucifiction of Jesus is the will of God, why did Jesus pray that the cup (his crucifiction and death) should pass away. Jesus is God the son and he is praying to God the father that the will of God (his crucifiction and death) of which he is a part of God head should pass way. If it is the will of God that Jesus will be crucified, why did Jesus pray "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" Why will Jesus ask for forgiveness for those who are instruments in fufilling the will of God. The observation that Jesus asked forgiveness for those who crucified him is a clear indication that what they did is evil and not according to the will of God. I guess that my summary is clear enough and will not allow your head to spin . As always stay blessed.

Judas was a Villain not a Hero!

Judas is not the worst character in the Bible but he blew up the chance he had to turn from being a villain to a hero.

I am sure we all know about Saul turned apostle Paul. He commited greater crimes but he later repented and today, he that was persecuting christians has now become the hero of christians, simply because of a genuine repentance.

Judas was used to fulfil the prophecy, but the prophecy did not say that he would commit murder. The prophecy was fulfiled by his betrayal but a genuine simple repentance would have saved him and turned him a matry and a hero. He shouldnt have killed himself. If he had faced the consequences of betraying the Messiah, the condemnation and the likely attack from the believers then would have either led to his matrydom. After his matrydom, they would have realised the importance of his role and genuine repentance and he would have turned a hero.

His refusal to face the consequences, i believe, robbed him of that status of Heroism.

judas is like sylar in heroes
really interesting tv show
anybody a fan?

Can you kindly give drive your points home to the thread my head is spinning.

As the story of Judas is integral to the whole Christ story he must be seen as a villain.

We can't prove that he even existed in real life so he can't be vindicated.

Even if we took the gnostic story of Judas, it's irrelevant. The story of Christ in the New Testament is the basis of Christianity and that makes it clear that Judas is a villain. Anything else is needless conjecture. The nature of Judas' relevance to the Christ story over-rides any other view but guilty.

A real-life Judas may have been innocent. But if that is the case, he is not the Judas in the NT. A comparison would be to say that a real life Jesus was merely a prophet - in that case, he would not be the saviour figure of the NT.

Bastage:

As the story of Judas is integral to the whole Christ story he must be seen as a villain.

We can't prove that he even existed in real life so he can't be vindicated.

Even if we took the gnostic story of Judas, it's irrelevant. The story of Christ in the New Testament is the basis of Christianity and that makes it clear that Judas is a villain. Anything else is needless conjecture. The nature of Judas' relevance to the Christ story over-rides any other view but guilty.

A real-life Judas may have been innocent. But if that is the case, he is not the Judas in the NT. A comparison would be to say that a real life Jesus was merely a prophet - in that case, he would not be the saviour figure of the NT.

He's a villian

i so much enjoyed readin this thread.

i definitely agree with all d points m_nwankwo has made.

over time, i have to question d authenticity of some bible writings, so many contradictions

judas committed an evil deed, yet he fulfilled the will of God, does God achieve his will towards mankind thru an evil means

wat is evil is evil and wat is good is good , there is no justification 2wards evil, so all d examples and illustrations been made by bastage and co is total rubbish. i cant see any grey area btw evil and good.

wats bastage is tryin 2 tell us is that the end justifies the means which is outrightly wrong

m_nwankwo:

, Jesus the son of God was not sent to die but to bring the Truth to humankind. And that his betrayal and crucifiction is not the will of God but a sacrilegious murder pepatrated by man against God. Thus the shedding of his blood did not atone for humankind sins but burdened humankind with a grevious sin.

The Christian Bible is the primary source of 'The Jesus Story'. In it (the Bible), Jesus was sent to die so he could save mankind. It was God's 'Will'.


Now, it isn't God's will in the sense that he planned and facilitated the death of Jesus. He only 'allowed' it to happen. Knowing that in it lies the solution to mankind's salvation. Remember that we are dealing with translations here

Do you agree that God possesses fore-knowledge?

No sane parent on earth will murder his own son or daughter for any reason and yet men expect or rather demand that God should sacrifice his son so that our load of sins will be washed away by that sacrifice.

God did not murder Jesus, He only allowed him to die. Of course, quoting the Preacher's most popular line (besides 'Bring Your 10% tithe' ) "God's ways are different from ours". You previously mentioned that it was 'unnatural' for God to use 'a death' to save man. Now let me ask you, why would a seed have to die before it can bring forth a new crop? Does that make sense to your 'spiritually evolved' way of thinking? Also note that some snake species die while giving birth to their young.


Furthermore, remember that it's an old testament practice to transfer one's sins to an innocent lamb and then 'murder' it to wash away the person's sins.


Note too that there are basic, standard designs in nature. And God repeats them in other creations. As an example, all man-made contraptions that are designed to move on land use wheels (with the exception of the hovercraft and levitating trains). From hand-carts and minivans, to battle tanks all use wheels. Humans move their lower limbs for locomotion. Pigs, antelopes and giraffes have the same locomotive design. Fishes and snakes share the same.


Now, since a sheep's blood can be a cleansing agent for one's sins, why would the same design not apply to Jesus as a man?

m_nwankwo: 1.) If it is the will of God for Jesus to die for the salvation of men, why did Jesus and God condemn people like Judas who was an instrument to the fulfillment of the will of God according to this train of thought.

2.) If the crucifixion of Jesus is the will of God, why did Jesus pray that the cup (his crucifixion and death) should pass away. Jesus is God the son and he is praying to God the father that the will of God (his crucifixion and death) of which he is a part of God head should pass way.

3.) If it is the will of God that Jesus will be crucified, why did Jesus pray "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" Why will Jesus ask for forgiveness for those who are instruments in fulfilling the will of God. The observation that Jesus asked forgiveness for those who crucified him is a clear indication that what they did is evil and not according to the will of God.

Now, let me address your questions in their order:


1.) God and Jesus condemned Judas because he is completely responsible for all his actions. Because God has the power of fore-knowledge, he already knew what was going to happen. He never influenced Judas. Judas possesses free-will just as we all do. And he had the faculties to resist the devil. Remember, what the bible said was, "And the devil entered him". It never said "And God entered him". He acted of his own volition!


If God never had fore-knowledge, Judas would still have acted the same way he did.


2.) Jesus was 100% percent flesh and blood when he lived on earth. The bizarre way he was murdered is not a particularly interesting prospect for someone who has the potential to feel pain. It was perfectly normal for him to be afraid of the unfolding events.


3.) Yes they did evil! And as explained earlier, it's not exactly the 'will' of God, but something God knew before hand and allowed to take it's due course.



In conclusion, Judas is a villian!

wats bastage is tryin 2 tell us is that the end justifies the means which is outrightly wrong

No. I'm not. Only someone with a shallow understanding would say that.

He is my Super-Hero!

@Richfella

Thanks for your input. I respond to your input as follows:

The Christian Bible is the primary source of 'The Jesus Story'. In it (the Bible), Jesus was sent to die so he could save mankind. It was God's 'Will'.


Now, it isn't God's will in the sense that he planned and facilitated the death of Jesus. He only 'allowed' it to happen. Knowing that in it lies the solution to mankind's salvation. Remember that we are dealing with translations here

Do you agree that God possesses fore-knowledge?

Thanks for acknowleging that the planning and facilitation of the death of Jesus is not Gods will. However while the planning and facilitation of the death of Jesus is not Gods will, the death itself is Gods will according to you. I have nothing to add if you cannot see the obvious contradition in your statement.

Yes God posesss foreknowlege. Foreknowlege of an event does not mean that it is the will of God. If you want a detailed discussion on prophecy and how it is possible to predict events, open a thread and I will air my views.

God did not murder Jesus, He only allowed him to die. Of course, quoting the Preacher's most popular line (besides 'Bring Your 10% tithe' ) "God's ways are different from ours". You previously mentioned that it was 'unnatural' for God to use 'a death' to save man. Now let me ask you, why would a seed have to die before it can bring forth a new crop? Does that make sense to your 'spiritually evolved' way of thinking? Also note that some snake species die while giving birth to their young.

Sure God didnot murder Jesus. What exactly do you mean by allowing Jesus to die. Today human beings sin and does it mean because the act of sin took place, it is equivalent to being the will of God. We sin because we choose to, that is what free will is. God will not intervene with our free will since God gave it to us but we are irrevocably bound to the consequences of our choice. Your example of a seed dying and the snake stuff have no relevance to the subject under discussion.

Furthermore, remember that it's an old testament practice to transfer one's sins to an innocent lamb and then 'murder' it to wash away the person's sins

The use of animal or human blood to wash away sins or appease God is peganistic and wheather or not it happened in the old or new times does not change  it. Repentance and reformation is the only road to forgiveness of sins and not human or animal sacrifices. It is indeed strange that the same believer will have a moral outrage when witch doctors and idol worshipers sacrifice humans to their gods, and yet the same believer has no qualms when exactly the same blood sacrifice of the body of the son of God is the foundation for their belief.

Note too that there are basic, standard designs in nature. And God repeats them in other creations. As an example, all man-made contraptions that are designed to move on land use wheels (with the exception of the hovercraft and levitating trains). From hand-carts and minivans, to battle tanks all use wheels. Humans move their lower limbs for locomotion. Pigs, antelopes and giraffes have the same locomotive design. Fishes and snakes share the same.

What relevance has all these your statements got to do with the topic under discussion.

Now, since a sheep's blood can be a cleansing agent for one's sins, why would the same design not apply to Jesus as a man?

Neither a sheep or human blood can cleanse an iorta of sin rather such practices are grievious sins against God.

God and Jesus condemned Judas because he is completely responsible for all his actions. Because God has the power of fore-knowledge, he already knew what was going to happen. He never influenced Judas. Judas possesses free-will just as we all do. And he had the faculties to resist the devil. Remember, what the bible said was, "And the devil entered him". It never said "And God entered him". He acted of his own volition!


If God never had fore-knowledge, Judas would still have acted the same way he did.

Yes Judas acted out of his free will and that is why the betrayal and subsequent crucifiction is as a result of the free will of men not the will of God. Foreknowlege of an event is not the same thing as the will of God. If you have a telescope that can see up two miles a flock of sheep grazing and at the same time you see a pack of lions close by, you can prophesy to people without a telescope that the lions will kill the sheep. Is it then your will thtat the lions will kill the sheep?

Jesus was 100% percent flesh and blood when he lived on earth. The bizarre way he was murdered is not a particularly interesting prospect for someone who has the potential to feel pain. It was perfectly normal for him to be afraid of the unfolding events

That has not addressed the question. Does being in flesh and blood prevent him even for a second from knowing the will of his Father. The question is why did God the son pray that the cup (death and crucifiction) will pass away since according to your view the cup (crucifiction and death) is the will God the father and the reason for Christ coming on earth.

Yes they did evil! And as explained earlier, it's not exactly the 'will' of God, but something God knew before hand and allowed to take it's due course

God knew that we sin and can forsee the sins we will comit tomorrow and yet that foreknowlege do not make God an accomplice in our sin or authorising our sins. Stay blessed.

[color=#006600]Iscariot is not a hero but a villain a disgrace to christainity if he had died 4 us 4 a good reason, mayb i would have regaerded him as a good hero but instead of asking for forgiveness, he committed murder that was not even reasonable. If he died like Jesus for doing good, i would have regarded him as a heroWell, Judas

i've watched the 'Gospel of Judas' on history a few times and heard about the customes of that time and i'm convinced that he was a hero.his depiction as a villian i think is just a bias.

@m_nwankwo

Do u believe the Bible?