dont talk about what you dont know!

While I am no atheist and do not agree with a majority of the views of Mazaje; may I state here that if I understand the Bible correctly, that there is no free will in the Bible. Davidlyan etc have quietened down. Provide CONCRETE proof for free will - you have none. I am tired of seeing people use free will in the Bible. I can readily provide 50 verses for no free will; what other proof do you want davidlyan - I am concentrating on you because you seem to use the free will excuse a lot.

CowMeat:

While I am no atheist and do not agree with a majority of the views of Mazaje; may I state here that if I understand the Bible correctly, that there is no free will in the Bible. Davidlyan etc have quietened down. Provide CONCRETE proof for free will - you have none. I am tired of seeing people use free will in the Bible. I can readily provide 50 verses for no free will; what other proof do you want davidlyan - I am concentrating on you because you seem to use the free will excuse a lot.

I work 7 days a week . . . responding to your inane posts is not high on my priority list. If there is no freewill in the bible (as you loudly and falsely proclaim) why does it particularly bother you? Have you nothing else to think about?

why does the bible bother you? Leave God alone. Create your own "god" with his own brand of "freewill" and stop disturbing the rest of us.

I dont play 7 days a week. I cannot tolerate misquoting of the Christian Bible thats why I must get it through your thick skull that there is no free will in the Bible. The Bible warns against misinterpretations. I will now ignore you on this thread to save my time. can somebody please prove free will in the Bible.

CowMeat:

I dont play 7 days a week. I cannot tolerate misquoting of the Christian Bible thats why I must get it through your thick skull that there is no free will in the Bible. The Bible warns against misinterpretations. I will now ignore you on this thread to save my time. can somebody please prove free will in the Bible.

You're not a christian . . . to claim you can't "tolerate" misquoting of the scriptures is pretty silly. Save yourself the lies and deceit, the problem with a lot of you is that you're not sure that the God of the bible is a "fantasy" as you claim so you look for excuses and flimsy reasons why you dont want to acknowledge the bible.

Freewill is an important concept in the scriptures . . . the bible is PLAIN - salvation is not to whoever wins Jehovah's lottery but to as many as recieved HIM!

Christ called more than 70 apostles during His 3 yrs on earth, He sent them and even the devils obeyed them . . . but at the end of the day the majority went away because they (like you excuse-searching sinners) could not tolerate the truth of the Kingdom.

CowMeat:

I dont play 7 days a week. I cannot tolerate misquoting of the Christian Bible thats why I must get it through your thick skull that there is no free will in the Bible. The Bible warns against misinterpretations. I will now ignore you on this thread to save my time. can somebody please prove free will in the Bible.

Statements like this make me wonder . . . why must you "get it through my thick skull" that there is no freewill in the bible? why does it bite you so hard? Is it because you love the bible so much to not misinterprete it or another ulterior motive?

I think this is your premise - prove that there is no freewill in the bible so you can go on sinning with the excuse that God probably didnt call you to be saved.

What a sorry excuse that would be on the last day. You probably dont believe in that anyway.

your argument falls flat.

"Freewill is an important concept in the scriptures . . . the bible is PLAIN - salvation is not to whoever wins Jehovah's lottery but to as many as recieved HIM!"
i have asked you several times to provide bible verses to support this notion which you declined.

it doesnt bite me so hard. I must let you know, I am a pretty mature christian.

Please see below, Church of England articles which forms the anglican book of common prayers (mazaje please note boldened part):

XVII. Of Predestination and Election.
“Predestination to life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby
(before the foundations of the world were laid) He has continually decreed
by His counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those
whom He has chosen in Christ out of mankind and to bring them by
Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honor. Wherefore they
which are endued with so excellent a benefit of God are called according
to God’s purpose by His Spirit working in due season: they through grace
obey the calling: they are justified freely: they are made sons of God by
adoption: they are made like the image of His only-begotten Son Jesus
Christ: they walk religiously in good works and at length, by God’s
mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.

As the godly consideration of Predestination and our Election in Christ is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons and such as feeling in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh and their earthly members and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: so for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God’s Predestination is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the devil doth thrust them either into desperation or into wretchlessness of most unclean living no less perilous than desperation.
Furthermore, we must receive God’s promises in such wise as they be generally set forth in Holy Scripture; and in our doings that will of God is to be followed which we have expressly declared unto us in the word of God."

CowMeat:

your argument falls flat.

this is your default position already, nothing anyone can say will change this.

CowMeat:

"Freewill is an important concept in the scriptures . . . the bible is PLAIN - salvation is not to whoever wins Jehovah's lottery but to [size=13pt]as many as recieved HIM[/size]!"
i have asked you several times to provide bible verses to support this notion which you declined.

This is silly because if you knew your bible you shld know that the last 5 words from my post that you quoted were taken directly from the gospel of John chapter 1.

Verse 12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

CowMeat:

it doesnt bite me so hard & frankly i dont really care. If I must let you know, I am a pretty mature christian.

The truth is YOU CARE! Pls save those lies for a blind person . . .

You're no "mature christian" . . . you really have no relationship with Christ if you have no idea what freewill is. Attending church for donkey yrs does not make you a christian except in label alone.

CowMeat:

Please see below, Church of England articles which forms the anglican book of common prayers:

“Predestination to life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby
(before the foundations of the world were laid) He has continually decreed
by His counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those
whom He has chosen in Christ out of mankind and to bring them by
Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honor. Wherefore they
which are endued with so excellent a benefit of God are called according
to God’s purpose by His Spirit working in due season: they through grace
obey the calling: they are justified freely: they are made sons of God by
adoption: they are made like the image of His only-begotten Son Jesus
Christ: they walk religiously in good works and at length, by God’s
mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.”

and this is your proof? An article from a church that is not sure if homsexuality is against the scriptures or not? A christian indeed.

this is the problem atheists have arguing some times with christians - we often circumvent the issue. i have provided you with doctrinal statements of the Book of Common prayers (used since around 1662) of the Aglican Church said by millions of believers around the world every sunday and you dont accept the evidence - & have failed to provide any urself. i can easily give you 50 verses in the Bible for no free will.

let us leave it as my business whether i care or not - just support your position in a rational, open friendly debate. we are all learning.

book of common prayer in use since 1662 WAY BEFORE THE HOMOSEXUAL INSTIGATIONS BY EVIL POWERS AGAINST THE ANGLIAN CHURCH.

Verse 12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

Those that received Him were those ordained by Divine will to eternal life. ", And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed"

CowMeat:

this is the problem atheists have arguing some times with christians - we often circumvent the issue. [size=15pt]i have provided you with doctrinal statements of the Book of Common prayers (used since around 1662) of the Aglican Church said by millions of believers around the world every sunday and you dont accept the evidence[/size] - & have failed to provide any urself. i can easily give you 50 verses in the Bible for no free will.

let us leave it as my business whether i care or not - just support your position in a rational, open friendly debate. we are all learning.

that is irrational nonsense. What have "doctrinal statements" of the anglican church that accepts gay priests to do with the bible? Since when did "doctrinal statements" of human churches become the yardstick by which we judge the gospel rather than the bible?

As regards "failed to provide any yourself" . . . i'm sure you didnt overlook John 1:12. The main problem we now have with so-called "christians" of today is the increasing unwillingness to regard the bible as God's final authority on an issue.

CowMeat:

book of common prayer in use since 1662 WAY BEFORE THE HOMOSEXUAL INSTIGATIONS BY EVIL POWERS AGAINST THE ANGLIAN CHURCH.

Verse 12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

Those that received Him were those ordained by Divine will to eternal life. ", And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed"

Based on what did you write this? Your own opinion?

this is part of the reason the black race is not progressing today - u see your position is flawed but you carry on arguing - the white man will acknowledge flaws happily but the black man is empirically egocentric.

The Book of Common prayer has EVERY STATEMENT directly related to supporting Bible verses. These statements God inspired and published around 1662 - over 3 centuries before the gay issue - what are you talking about?

Based on what did you write this? Your own opinion?
"You did not choose me, I chose you." (John 15:16 ) Once again OPEN YOUR BIBLE. The highest concentration of predestination verses is found in the Book of John and they are sequential - so you dont say im quoting out of context.

CowMeat:

this is part of the reason the black race is not progressing today - u see your position is flawed but you carry on arguing - the white man will acknowledge flaws happily but the black man is empirically egocentric.

Forget about the black race . . . you say my position is flawed based on what? Where is your own supporting evidence properly analysed?

CowMeat:

The Book of Common prayer has EVERY STATEMENT directly related to supporting Bible verses. These statements God inspired and published around 1662 - over 3 centuries before the gay issue - what are you talking about?

Rubbish. When did the anglican common prayer become the validation for the bible? Do YOU know what you false "christian" are talking about? Ever read 1 timothy 3:16?

CowMeat:

Based on what did you write this? Your own opinion?
"You did not choose me, I chose you." (John 15:16 ) Once again OPEN YOUR BIBLE. The highest concentration of predestination verses is found in the Book of John and they are sequential - so you dont say im quoting out of context.

So my dear "christian" . . . what happened to the other 70 disciples Christ "chose" who "walked no more with Him" after John 6? He made a mistake in choosing or He delisted them as disciples after a while?

Forget about the black race . . . you say my position is flawed based on what? Where is your own supporting evidence properly analysed?
The evidence mazaje listed is enough but if you need more, I can provide. My supporting evidence is the bible verses provided earlier in this thread and the entire Book of Romans. Further evidence is:

Romans 11:7—“What then? Israel has not obtained that
which he seeks for; but the election has obtained it and the rest were
blinded.”

Mazaje you must repent however, Jesus is Lord!

Rubbish. When did the anglican common prayer become the validation for the bible? Do YOU know what you false "christian" are talking about? Ever read 1 timothy 3:16?
Not rubbish. You are the person introducing the idea of it being a validation of the Bible. Mazaje has listed 10s of verses - are they all out of context?

So my dear "christian" . . . what happened to the other 70 disciples Christ "chose" who "walked no more with Him" after John 6? He made a mistake in choosing or He delisted them as disciples after a while?
Christ foreknew that the disciples who left will leave. He foreknew that Peter will deny Him three times even before Peter did it. Furthermore, please read Is 46:10.

CowMeat:

The evidence mazaje listed is enough but if you need more, I can provide. My supporting evidence is the bible verses provided earlier in this thread and the entire Book of Romans.

Mazaje did not list "evidence", he simply listed a host of verses he didnt understand. I repeat . . . the bible is not a literary novel.

CowMeat:

Further evidence is:

Romans 11:7—“What then? Israel has not obtained that
which he seeks for; but the election has obtained it and the rest were
blinded.”

the same romans 11 . . . 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Note here that Paul is saying we are saved by grace but only as long as we retain our salvation otherwise we would be cut off. If we wre simply saved by God's will alone then why shld we be cut off? Shouldnt it be once saved forever saved?

CowMeat:

Not rubbish. You are the person introducing the idea of it being a validation of the Bible. Mazaje has listed 10s of verses - are they all out of context?

That's not true, you were the one who brought as evidence that there was no freewill in the bible. since when did the doctrine of the anglican church of England become the basis for understanding the bible?

CowMeat:

Christ foreknew that the disciples who left will leave. He foreknew that Peter will deny Him three times even before Peter did it. Furthermore, please read Is 46:10.

Foreknowledge is not the same thing as having no freewill. I think you're confused.

If those disciples were chosen outside their own freewill then the fact that they left means Christ FAILED WOEFULLY to choose carefully or He had no idea that those 70 would leave after choosing them? Or was He playing a little joke on them?

No, they joined Him of their own freewill and chose to leave of their own freewill when they (like you) could no longer endure sound doctrine.

You cant dance around facts.

Hahaha, i can't stop laughing seeing david making indistinct muzzle

davidylan:

Mazaje did not list "evidence", he simply listed a host of verses he didnt understand. I repeat . . . the bible is not a literary novel.

The lies this deluded goons keep telling themselves so that they can sleep at night . . . . . .This deluded goon believes that Johen survived inside a fish for 3 days, he also believes that the sun stood still for the chosen sons of yahewh to carry out their massacre. . . . he believes that jesus was raised from the dead. . . . .he believes all these things literary but refuses to believe other literal parts like. . . .

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began

Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." .

I do not believe in any of the mumbo jumbo written in the bible. Free will does not appear in the bible at all and your free will argument has been debunked by the bible itself. . . . Even jesus says that no one can come to him unless it is grated the person by his father he also said that "You did not choose me, I chose you." . . . . Paul in so many places talks about christians already been predestined by the bible god to be who they will be according to the will of the biblegod. . . . He says"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love"

The book of revelation says that the biblegod has all reay predestined everything according to his will right from the so called beginning. . . .

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. . . . . .

How is Free will to be reconciled with the Omnipotence of God?

If God is omnipotent then nothing can thwart his will. Every thing that happens is according to his Will. Can there be any other Wills where there is an omnipotent Will?

Pastor AIO:

How is Free will to be reconciled with the Omnipotence of God?

If God is omnipotent then nothing can thwart his will. Every thing that happens is according to his Will. Can there be any other Wills where there is an omnipotent Will?

It depends on who you ask. . . .Lairs like davidylan who always seem to know what their god is thinking(since he exist only in their deluded imaginations) will tell you otherwise. . . .

Pastor AIO:

How is Free will to be reconciled with the Omnipotence of God?

If God is omnipotent then nothing can thwart his will. Every thing that happens is according to his Will. Can there be any other Wills where there is an omnipotent Will?

Freewill is limited to your personal choice to accept salvation.

davidylan:

Freewill is limited to your personal[b] choice to accept salvation[/b].

Free will as defined by who? The above is your personal opinion.

Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

I do not believe in the above but let's assume it is true, The above passage from the bible makes nonsense of your claim about accepting salvation because jesus says that no one can come to him UNLESS it is GRANTED the person by his father. You can try but if the father does not grant you permission then you try in vain.

When one considers that much of our motivations are grounded in our subconscious or unconscious mind, how does the idea of human will (as a conscious autonomous agent) fit in?

toneyb:

Free will as defined by who? The above is your personal opinion.

Joh 6:65  And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

I do not believe in the above but let's assume it is true, The above passage from the bible makes nonsense of your claim about accepting salvation because jesus says that no one can come to him UNLESS it is GRANTED the person by his father. You can try but if the father does not grant you permission then you try in vain.

you have it all upside down . . . read and pay MORE ATTENTION TO DETAILS not just what you want to see -

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

What is to be given of the Father?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

You cant become a Son of God unless God grants you the power and the Holy Spirit to change you from corrupt to incorruptible . . . but the first step is ENTIRELY UP TO YOU! You must recognise that YOU are a sinner and need His grace to save you from your own unrighteousness.

Its very simple . . . would you also say that admission to secondary school is 100% dependent on the school? Yes and No!

But first you must recognise your need to further your education, the school wont come and drag you out of your father's house to attend by force. You must identify the entrance exam you need to sit for, pass it and then apply to your school of choice.

Should you pass the exam, the school then recognises you as a bonafide student and gives you all rights accruable to a student. Without that right from the school, you can write 1000 exams, pass them with 110% but you're not going to be a student.

Likewise if you dont pass the exam, the school cannot force the rights of being a student on you.

Pastor AIO:

When one considers that much of our motivations are grounded in our subconscious or unconscious mind, how does the idea of human will (as a conscious autonomous agent) fit in?

I already replied you here -

davidylan:

Freewill is limited to your personal choice to accept salvation.

@Davidylan

I am not making a contribution to the topic. Just to ask how your Ph.D work is proceeding. Hope you will round up very soon. Best wishes and Gods grace with your defence. Stay blessed.

Davidlyan, you have a habit of hiding behind words when cornered and bringin in meaningless examples. In this topic just make your point.

Quote from: CowMeat on Yesterday at 12:58:44 AM
Further evidence is:

Romans 11:7—“What then? Israel has not obtained that
which he seeks for; but the election has obtained it and the rest were
blinded.”

the same romans 11 . . . 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This has no direct relation to the argument at hand. I showed you through verse 7 how THE ELECTION HAS OBTAINED "IT" AND THE REST WERE BLINDED. The verse you have quotted as a rebuttal has no direct relevance to the notion supported by rom 11:7. We are focussing on the action of God in giving the election "it" and blinding the rest. Please focus on this and dont try to hide behind words. Can you provide a verse to negate this notion?

Note here that Paul is saying we are saved by grace but only as long as we retain our salvation otherwise we would be cut off. If we wre simply saved by God's will alone then why shld we be cut off? Shouldnt it be once saved forever saved?
Your notion is false. Salvation is initiated by the Spirit of God as man cannot initiate salvation nor maintain it as Ecc says "there is none that is good, no not one". You also seem to misunderstand the sphere of salvation. Salvation cannot be lost (I notice you introduce this separate topic to divert attention from the main point of God's act in predestination which overrides man's will). Can we focus on God's predestination of the elect overiding the will (not free will) of the elect please?

Foreknowledge is not the same thing as having no freewill. I think you're confused.

If those disciples were chosen outside their own freewill then the fact that they left means Christ FAILED WOEFULLY to choose carefully or He had no idea that those 70 would leave after choosing them? Or was He playing a little joke on them?

No, they joined Him of their own freewill and chose to leave of their own freewill when they (like you) could no longer endure sound doctrine.

You cant dance around facts.
Avoid calling me confused as you are only using this to shield yourself from a losing argument. My position is that Gods foreknowledge overrides man's will and therefore man has no free will (you can see the way I made my position punchy, direct and clear with no confusing examples or esoteric knowledge - please make yours so).

Again your own opinion with no supporting Biblical evidence. John says "they came out of us that it may be made manifest that they were not of us for had they been of us no doubt they would have remained with us". In being made manifest, there is no free will. Another example is Judas "I have chosen the Twwelve yet one of you is a devil". Christ said this having known who will betray Him from the beginning. Judas HAD NO FREE WILL. The Bible says that Judas betrayed Christ that scripture might be fulfilled. The crucifiers cast lots and tore Christs garments that scripture might be fulfilled. They had no free will. Scripture being fulfilled overrides their wills.

Furthermore, mazaje (you need to repent though) provides overwhelming evidence:

Rom 9:16  So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
This is not Greek or Spanish or latin or higher knowledge. It is plain English. Davidlyan, the Bible says it DEPENDS NOT ON HUMAN WILL (whether free or not) BUT ON GOD. You oppose this with a weak argument trying to twist scriptures. If we examine the verses you have provided to support your position against this one verse alone, you will if you are honest admit that your position is weak.

This verse is no coincidence: 1 Cor 1:30 "Of God are Ye in Christ". In Christ means saved - of the new creation not "in Adam".

Pastor AIO further asks:

How is Free will to be reconciled with the Omnipotence of God?

If God is omnipotent then nothing can thwart his will.  Every thing that happens is according to his Will.  Can there be any other Wills where there is an omnipotent Will?
You did not comment on this but began to comment on other things to confuse us. David replied this with:

freewill is limited to your personal choice to accept salvation.

You are negating the Bible. The Bible says: Rom 9:16  So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Joh 6:65  "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
toneyb has given a clear explaination. You are not being logical!

you have it all upside down . . . read and pay MORE ATTENTION TO DETAILS not just what you want to see -

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

What is to be given of the Father?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

"But as many as received Him" are those God decides because: ",  they heard the Word of the Lord and as many as were appointed to eternal life belived"; these are the "as many as received". This is my evidence and is no accident that its in the Bible. Now please can you provide from the bible a negation or rebuttal of this without name calling, twisting words or confusing examples. Make a direct statement as is done for Masters & PhD studies.

You cant become a Son of God unless God grants you the power and the Holy Spirit to change you from corrupt to incorruptible . . .

Entirely true up to this point.

but the first step is ENTIRELY UP TO YOU! You must recognise that YOU are a sinner and need His grace to save you from your own unrighteousness

.
No its not entirely up to you because salvation oriiginates from God. This is your opinion. You must recognise that you are a sinner and it is God that must ENABLE YOU IF HE DECIDES to recognise that you are a sinner.


[quote][/quote]

in the absence of any further rebuttals, its now proven that free will does not exist in the Bible.

davidylan:

you have it all upside down . . . read and pay MORE ATTENTION TO DETAILS not just what you want to see -

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

What is to be given of the Father?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

What has John 1:12 got to do with the fact that in john 6:65 Jesus says that no one can come to him unless it is granted him by the father? You are the person that has it upside down the bible is clear, once the father grants you the permission to accept Jesus according to his will and pleasure not according to yours he will then give you the power to become his children according to the bible. I do not believe in all these but it is very clear, You are just twisting what is writing in the bible to agree with your own personal theology and opinion.

You cant become a Son of God unless God grants you the power and the Holy Spirit to change you from corrupt to incorruptible . . . but the first step is ENTIRELY UP TO YOU! You must recognise that YOU are a sinner and need His grace to save you from your own unrighteousness.

Very false. Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Its very simple . . . would you also say that admission to secondary school is 100% dependent on the school? Yes and No!

But first you must recognise your need to further your education, the school wont come and drag you out of your father's house to attend by force. You must identify the entrance exam you need to sit for, pass it and then apply to your school of choice.

Should you pass the exam, the school then recognises you as a bonafide student and gives you all rights accruable to a student. Without that right from the school, you can write 1000 exams, pass them with 110% but you're not going to be a student.

Likewise if you don't pass the exam, the school cannot force the rights of being a student on you.

All this is all BS, the bible clearly says that everything depends on the will of the father who does things according to his will and not on the will of humans, Paul in so many verses says that the bible god has chosen people to believe in him long before they were born, he also says that others were created so that they should be destroyed all according to the wishes and will of the bible god, your arguments about free will has no defense in the bible.

.

.

huxley, what is your view in this matter