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Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by Blessedsunny2(m): 6:10pm On Jun 11
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Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by taskcompleteng: 9:26pm On Jun 11
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Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by lastpage: 9:39pm On Jun 11
Forgive me, l have to compress all the responses together, so l can give one, final blow to them and be done.
The Choice to Stamp Duty your Nigerian Lease/Rent Agreements is an individual Choice and Responsibility, l am just trying to 'share knowledge'
. I cant, and l am not, forcing anyone to obey the Law. Far from it Sirs. grin

Badgers14:


We are all here to learn, at least I am.

Is there any legal backing in Nigeria regarding that?

If there was , I am not aware, I have never heard of that. I have checked in with a lawyer friend and he thought it was bizarre[/b] but no one knows everything.

If there's a legal background on it, I will like to know for myself . Thanks.
...........
We are talking about landlords and tenants.. recall, tenancy agreement - legal business. [b]Not any illegal activities, cum contract killings.
. maybe you brought up wrong example... I think that was a wrong example if I am honest.

But to your credit tho, ex Turpi causa non oritur actio is a valid legal defense based on your example.. but we are talking about legal business of a landlord renting a property to a tenant
........

Speaking of Nigeria I have first hand experience in landlord tenants issues and have been to court in almost all the states in Eastern Nigeria, count Delta state in too but no magistrate/judge even asked that, not even when the tenants themselves were lawyers or hired a decent counsel for the court room brawl was this ever mentioned.. ( but it's been a while now, maybe things have changed).

If you don't mind me asking, which state did did you experience this in court ? The stamp Duty stuff..

If you don't mind, I am still interested on how the court arrived at this requirement, any actual legal references .. is appreciated

Thanks again.

Thank you.
Yes, there is a legal background to it.
Infact, anything that is an existing LAW, already has a legal background to it so the questions are:

1) Is Stamp Duty payment A Law in Nigeria? Answer: YES, the LAW or Legal basis for this position is the Stamp Duty Act (Law) 2019 as Amended. I have given you the link to that Law, on the FIRS website.

2) Are Rents and Lease subject to Stamp Duty Payment in Nigeria? YES, again, it is in that FIRS website.
So, if a Law is passed, signed by the President and in Operation, it is in Legal Operation in that country (Nigeria) and that is the Legal background.

My past example is 'true and correct' and correct but you seems not to be able to connect the dots!
The Law is BLIND, so it is not a question of whether the "Invalid Agreement" is Business, Tenancy, Criminality or even a Love affair! Once there is a Law in place and what you "signed an agreement on" is UNLAWFUL, with respect to that Law, your agreement becomes null and valid and of no effect.... and you cant seek redress on it, from a Nigerian Law Court (Those who must come to Equity, must come with Clean Hands).
Where you "connect the dots" in this: If there is a Law which says you must "stamp Duty Rent agreements" and you have failed to obey that existing Law, by NOT paying Stamp duty on your business/Rent/Lease Agreement, your "Agreement Document" has become illegal, unlawful, unenforceable and will not be enforced by a Judge, in any Nigerian Court.
The Court Judge will not act or enforce anything "the law has made illegal". That is why l gave you that example os something a Law has made illegal, dont view it in the literal sense, just pay attention to the phrase "illegal Agreement". undecided

bixton:


Well done Sir....
I just found out that it's not entirely applicable in all the States of the federation because some States' National Assembly have not amended their stamp duty laws to effect such changes.

Thank you Sir!
The Stamp Duty Law, is a Federal law and it is being operated by the FEDERAL INLAND REVENUE SERVICE (FIRS), as the only body empowered (or its appointed subsidiaries), to collect Stamp Duty on behalf of the Government.
May l point out that it is on the "exclusive list", that is, what only the Federal Govt can legislate on (Not State) but the law applies to all Nigerians, irrespective of what the State Laws State. Nigeria is a federal System of Govt undecided and "Exclusive List" Laws override State laws.
Everybody with a Tenancy/Lease or operating an Agreement with a Monetary Value in Nigeria, is subject to Stamp Duty Payment.
It has nothing to do with State Laws.


Badgers14:


Thanks. That's why I was curious on the state where he experienced that in court so I can do more research on it.


First, I dont (and you dont) have to personally experience something, to know it is true or for it to be true!
That is why we rely of History/Past Events, to guide us.
For example, when the Tenancy laws states that you cant remove the Roof of a tenant, to effect forceful ejection, have we all experienced it individually, to know/believe it is true? Do l have to kill someone, to know that there is a penalty of death sentence for Murder?
Why do we have Books and Google, then? Why do we attend Court hearings then?

I keep using "examples" because l want o keep it simple and in layman's language so that all of us here can benefit, it will make no sense if l start quoting legal jargons here, just to impress someone. grin grin
But having said that, l have colleagues who have experienced it in all States of the Federation (on Different areas of the 'Stamp Duty Payment', as it affects Agreements in general and Lease in particular. (I am deliberately not mentioning three States that l have been personally involved in, for personal reasons which l do not intend to discuss here but be assured Abuja is one of them.
But if you still have doubts, please walk into any Nigerian Court House and speak with the Registrar or even a Court Clerk.
Remember, this is a NEW Law (Came into effect in 2019... Anyone can google "FIRS Stamp Duty Act 2019"

Most Landlord will personally not know the effect of this Law, until they face a Judge in Court and they need to use their Tenancy/Lease Agreement to PROVE what they agreed between their tenants and themselves. grin grin
I hope we dont learn the hardway sha, it is an individual Choice.

NB: I keep emphasising that this is a DOMESTIC Nigerian Law, meant for Rent/Lease operable in Nigeria or with effect in Nigeria, please, no one should disturb me again with US or UK examples, they are irrelevant to what we are discussing.

Thanks to all who contributed, have a blessed evening Sirs.

Lastpage!

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Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by Badgers14: 10:07pm On Jun 11
Maybe lastpage have a point about the stamp Duty stuff but the analogy he is using to express it is very very faulty in my opinion.

You can't compare an agreement between a landlord and their tenant to a contract killings. Those are two different things.. one is legal business and the later is an illegal business. It is not illegal for a landlord to rent a house to a tenant, but it is illegal for someone to contract a killer to kill another person..Just my opinion though.

I was just asking this things for knowing sake, knowing our dear country Nigeria, anything can happen even in the court law, invoking a non existing legal principle, misinterpreting a law etc... was it not one of our Supreme Court justices, expressing dismay in his colleagues miscarriage of justice in his scathing dissent said, .. wonders shall never end.." grin


I guess "that wonders " have not ended...

I am really interested to see the court transcripts on the cases in Abuja. When the courts are back from strike, maybe that will be possible. Abuja being the seat of power, things are offcourse done differently there. I am suspecting maybe Lagos, because the state is a bit progressive in their laws and might have passed a law to back this thing up.

If you are one of them hard head tenants that have read this write ups and think.. aye, I will take my landlord to court and show him what I learned on Nairaland... be careful.. not every judge or magistrate will be kind to let you off the hook on Rent and possession because of this technicalities.

A lot of judges will frown on that if you base your legal argument on the tenancy agreement was not stamp dutied. Remember that was your burden to pay not the landlords. Just like it is the Burden of the landlord to pay the property rate but responsibility of the Inland revenue services to collect the dues/fees.

Another thing to be mindful of is, if the evidence (tenancy agreement) was successfully suppressed in court and the court ruled it invalid... what other legal documents does the tenant have that gave them the legal rights to be in possession of the property?

Since the tenancy agreement is INVALID, the so called tenant can not be called tenant again, wouldn't that be criminal trespassing? Because the individual doesn't have any legal right to have possession of the said flat/shop as the case might be?

You can't have it both ways, it is either you are in the unit legally that is a tenant or you are not, in that case a criminal taking possession of what he doesn't have any legal right to have the possession of.

Word of advice to tenants, pay your rent on time as at when due don't dwell on court proceedings to be a hard head.
if a landlord wants you to pack out because of reasons unreasonable.. just ask for sometime and move.. in your best interest... just ask for some time and move on with your life in peace. Some of these landlords or property managers could be something else..

Moreover in a landlord and tenant dispute, the majority of the cases, the bone of contention is rent due not possession of the property because the landlord owns the building, that is his property, he just have to file proper notices to evict the tenant from his property.

Cheers!

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Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by dongc(m): 10:24pm On Jun 11
Where I live stamp duty is not relevant on rental property contracts only on mortgages or lease...contracts are contracts...just like. Nollywood legend osuofia said...."agreement is agreement " signed and sealed...admissible in any court...

This days with digital signatures and OTP..approve on phone..


Badgers14:


Thanks for your response but I disagree with your submission.

Stamp Duty for a tenancy agreement is not a requirement in most western countries and I have rented spaces in a few of them.

In the U.S, some states do have a default tenancy agreement form on the state/county/city website that a landlord could just print off and use. Stamp Duty not required even in the event the landlord's lawyer drafts the tenancy agreement. Notary is not even required for the document to be legally binding.

The reference you made about buying a house.. in the U.S some documents requires notary which the desk jockey at the closing company can do.

Also, don't confuse power of attorney with tenancy agreement. Them two have different legal guidelines .

The word "agreement " means two people have agreed on an issue .

An agreement is legally binding if the two parties agreed on it by,

1). By word of mouth.
2). A text exchange
3). Email exchange
4). And offcourse our very popular ink to paper.

Most judges don't like the word of mouth because it places a heavy burden on the court to determine who is telling the truth and who is stretching the truth. Offcourse since the case made it to court, there has been a disagreement and they come to court to seek redress.

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Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by rmx: 10:45pm On Jun 11
Blessedsunny2:
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Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by diordaves(m): 11:28pm On Jun 11
lastpage:
Forgive me, l have to compress all the responses together, so l can give one, final blow to them and be done.
The Choice to Stamp Duty your Nigerian Lease/Rent Agreements is an individual Choice and Responsibility, l am just trying to 'share knowledge'
. I cant, and l am not, forcing anyone to obey the Law. Far from it Sirs. grin



Thank you.
Yes, there is a legal background to it.
Infact, anything that is an existing LAW, already has a legal background to it so the questions are:

1) Is Stamp Duty payment A Law in Nigeria? Answer: YES, the LAW or Legal basis for this position is the Stamp Duty Act (Law) 2019 as Amended. I have given you the link to that Law, on the FIRS website.

2) Are Rents and Lease subject to Stamp Duty Payment in Nigeria? YES, again, it is in that FIRS website.
So, if a Law is passed, signed by the President and in Operation, it is in Legal Operation in that country (Nigeria) and that is the Legal background.

My past example is 'true and correct' and correct but you seems not to be able to connect the dots!
The Law is BLIND, so it is not a question of whether the "Invalid Agreement" is Business, Tenancy, Criminality or even a Love affair! Once there is a Law in place and what you "signed an agreement on" is UNLAWFUL, with respect to that Law, your agreement becomes null and valid and of no effect.... and you cant seek redress on it, from a Nigerian Law Court (Those who must come to Equity, must come with Clean Hands).
Where you "connect the dots" in this: If there is a Law which says you must "stamp Duty Rent agreements" and you have failed to obey that existing Law, by NOT paying Stamp duty on your business/Rent/Lease Agreement, your "Agreement Document" has become illegal, unlawful, unenforceable and will not be enforced by a Judge, in any Nigerian Court.
The Court Judge will not act or enforce anything "the law has made illegal". That is why l gave you that example os something a Law has made illegal, dont view it in the literal sense, just pay attention to the phrase "illegal Agreement". undecided



Thank you Sir!
The Stamp Duty Law, is a Federal law and it is being operated by the FEDERAL INLAND REVENUE SERVICE (FIRS), as the only body empowered (or its appointed subsidiaries), to collect Stamp Duty on behalf of the Government.
May l point out that it is on the "exclusive list", that is, what only the Federal Govt can legislate on (Not State) but the law applies to all Nigerians, irrespective of what the State Laws State. Nigeria is a federal System of Govt undecided and "Exclusive List" Laws override State laws.
Everybody with a Tenancy/Lease or operating an Agreement with a Monetary Value in Nigeria, is subject to Stamp Duty Payment.
It has nothing to do with State Laws.





First, I dont (and you dont) have to personally experience something, to know it is true or for it to be true!
That is why we rely of History/Past Events, to guide us.
For example, when the Tenancy laws states that you cant remove the Roof of a tenant, to effect forceful ejection, have we all experienced it individually, to know/believe it is true? Do l have to kill someone, to know that there is a penalty of death sentence for Murder?
Why do we have Books and Google, then? Why do we attend Court hearings then?

I keep using "examples" because l want o keep it simple and in layman's language so that all of us here can benefit, it will make no sense if l start quoting legal jargons here, just to impress someone. grin grin
But having said that, l have colleagues who have experienced it in all States of the Federation (on Different areas of the 'Stamp Duty Payment', as it affects Agreements in general and Lease in particular. (I am deliberately not mentioning three States that l have been personally involved in, for personal reasons which l do not intend to discuss here but be assured Abuja is one of them.
But if you still have doubts, please walk into any Nigerian Court House and speak with the Registrar or even a Court Clerk.
Remember, this is a NEW Law (Came into effect in 2019... Anyone can google "FIRS Stamp Duty Act 2019"

Most Landlord will personally not know the effect of this Law, until they face a Judge in Court and they need to use their Tenancy/Lease Agreement to PROVE what they agreed between their tenants and themselves. grin grin
I hope we dont learn the hardway sha, it is an individual Choice.

NB: I keep emphasising that this is a DOMESTIC Nigerian Law, meant for Rent/Lease operable in Nigeria or with effect in Nigeria, please, no one should disturb me again with US or UK examples, they are irrelevant to what we are discussing.

Thanks to all who contributed, have a blessed evening Sirs.

Lastpage!

I think you've done enough justice to this. Very impressive.

I have read the act in it's entirety. Tenants should pay their stamp duty. Yes. I will continue to work with the premise that tenancy agreement is admissible in court irrespective of the payment of the duty.

Posers:
If I took a tenant to court among others, refusal to pay their stamp duty, so the court will not decide the case as stipulated in the tenancy agreement because the tenant didn't pay stamp duty? Ma- dness.

If your bank, for some reasons fail to deduct stamp duty when your salary hits your bank account, does this mean your work/employment contract is invalid and this is not admissible in court? Mad-ness.

If I pay my builder and they in turn fail to pay stamp duty on the sum, does it mean the service contract between us is invalid and the agreement is not admissible in court? Mad-ness.

If I ordered stuff online and made payment and if the vendor failed to pay stamp duty on this income, does it mean the receipt and the terms and conditions issued are invalid and not admissible in court? Mad-ness.

Or is stamp duty only paid on properties with regards to leases, rent and tenants and even landlords?

This Stamp Duty Act must be an almighty law nullifying the law of private contracts and the law of evidence and even Tort.

He who comes to equity must come with clean hands. Where is the landlord's hand soiled? Tenants pay stamp duty not landlords. The FIRS are mandated to collect and enforce compliance not landlords.

Don't get me wrong, your argument is convincing. It is Buhari's Nigeria. All is possible. Entire courts are being bribed. Justice is for sale in Buhari's Nigeria.

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Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by Blessedsunny2(m): 12:20am On Jun 12
rmx:


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Yes but is my senior brother show room I have be relocated to my own office at agric market odun-ade bus stop badagry
Expressway coke-lagos
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by Chekitaut: 12:58am On Jun 12
justified007:





How much is a load of Man diesel granite
Depending on the type on Man Diesel we have 4x2, 6x4, 8x4 all have different load capacity 10tons, 20tons, 30tons respectively, It also required the quantity you need for your project.
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by rmx: 2:39am On Jun 12
Blessedsunny2:

Yes but is my senior brother show room I have be relocated to my own office at agric market odun-ade bus stop badagry
Expressway coke-lagos

Nice . Say hello to your brother . I know him cool

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Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by n3xt(m): 3:17am On Jun 12
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Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by Kentucky404: 5:43am On Jun 12
smallsmall:


You are making things worse for the Apprentice and it is unfortunate, if you have no job or placement to give him.
You should not have dissed the other guy the way you did and on top of it, lYou are still Wrong!
This has nothing to do with having a sense of entitlement, it is about 'Courtesy', which is not a Nigerian thing.

Maybe it is your comprehension of English or his statement but l wont dwell on that too much because l dont it to be an issue moreover, this is not an English class. undecided
The word "please" is not a sign of inferiority, when used for another person, it is a sign of Courtesy.
A British Policeman who is putting you in handcuffs, will say: Please can you extend your hands out (so he can put the cuffs).
That shows 'courtesy' and not that the Policeman is inferior or afraid of you.

Let me quote the 'applicant':

And let me quote what you wrote: Please indicate, so i can contact you.
You can see that your statement and his, are not exactly the same, due to where the word 'Please', is placed.

You, are assuming that the 'Please' at the beginning of his statement, covers the whole sentence but someone like @sonnie10 understands English and proper usage of words and he knows it does not cover the whole sentence.

The 'Please' should have come just before the 'indicate so l can contact you'.
To appear as: ... I also need more professional experience in my field, please if you're a professional in this field, PLEASE indicate, so I can contact you.

The reason it is so, is that "indicate" is 'a request' in that sentence and it is what needs the 'courtesy' (please) to qualify it moreover, when you are making a request to someone who will be in the position of a Teacher or a Boss, showing courtesy, in making such request is not a bad idea.
My opinion is that the 'applicant' did not pay enough attention to his sentence but he means no arrogance, in his request.

I come in peace o and l have stomach pain as well, so l cant go back and forth, on the matter.

,


Your quote below:

'The word "please" is not a sign of inferiority, when used for another person, it is a sign of Courtesy.'

No one says It's a sign of inferiority. Or did Anyone dispute that undecided


_____________


Lol, The only thing I love from your Post is your opinion cool .
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by lastpage: 5:48am On Jun 12
Go and read any Textbook on the Law of Evidence.
It will explain to you in more detail, why some EVIDENCE, though TRUE, become INADMISSIBLE in a Court of Law.
When Evidence is Tainted (Like a Tenancy Agreement that is not Stamp Duty paid), it becomes inadmissible as evidence, for the Party who is seeking to use it as a defense.

****Not withstanding, l will take the time to answer each of your posers, (by putting the answers below each line), l am sure someone might gain from them
I also like you as a person, from time. grin


diordaves:


I think you've done enough justice to this. Very impressive.

I have read the act in it's entirety. Hmmm...... undecided shocked
Tenants should pay their stamp duty. Yes. I will continue to work with the premise that tenancy agreement is admissible in court irrespective of the payment of the duty.

Posers:
If I took a tenant to court among others, refusal to pay their stamp duty, so the court will not decide the case as stipulated in the tenancy agreement because the tenant didn't pay stamp duty? Ma- dness.

I never said the Court will refuse to decide the case, all l said is that you wont be able to use the tenancy agreement to further your case, if it was not Stamp Dutied.


If your bank, for some reasons fail to deduct stamp duty when your salary hits your bank account, does this mean your work/employment contract is invalid and this is not admissible in court? Mad-ness.
Stamp Duty is not paid on Salary, did you see anything like Salary in that in the Stamp Duty Act, 2019 you said you read?
I guess you are mixed-up, PAYE/Income Tax is a form of Tax, just like Stamp Duty, but they are paid on different things.

Banks dont deduct Stamp Duty from anyone's account angry grin what they deduct is VAT, on the service they render.

If I pay my builder and they in turn fail to pay stamp duty on the sum, does it mean the service contract between us is invalid and the agreement is not admissible in court? Mad-ness.
You are still missing the point! Tax on Agreements (Stamp Duty) and Tax on Payment for Services or goods (VAT) are not the same thing.
Maybe you guys need to go and read up a little bit on these things first, on your own.


If I ordered stuff online and made payment and if the vendor failed to pay stamp duty on this income, does it mean the receipt and the terms and conditions issued are invalid and not admissible in court? Mad-ness.
I really feel sad for this your line of thought but l will take it that you are just 'messing'. angry
How can you pay Stamp duty on Income? Did you read that in the Stamp Duty Act 2019 or you are just making things up?
Income = Income Tax
Purchases and Services payments = VAT
Agreements, Deeds, Transfers, etc = Stamp Duty

Or is stamp duty only paid on properties with regards to leases, rent and tenants and even landlords?

You said you read the Stamp Duty Act, 2019, you should know. It is paid on a lot of things, as stated in the Stamp Duty Act, including Lease/Rent.

This Stamp Duty Act must be an almighty law nullifying the law of private contracts and the law of evidence and even Tort.
Stamp Duty Laws does not nullify any other Law, stop this sort of 'sarcastic ignorance'! Laws target a certain area and Tax laws target Tax Compliance.
I am not sure you know anything about Law of Evidence otherwise you would have understood how 'not following the Stipulated Law', as per "Agreements", will make such agreements inadmissible in court..


He who comes to equity must come with clean hands. Where is the landlord's hand soiled? Tenants pay stamp duty not landlords. The FIRS are mandated to collect and enforce compliance not landlords.

You said you read the whole Stamp Duty Act, 2019? Are you sure? grin
Even when l quoted the area that answers your question above, clearly in my first Post, you are still making this sort of wild assumption?
The tenant pays the Duty. The landlord collects it and remits it to the Govt (FIRS). The Govt issues a Stamp Duty Certificate in respect of that Agreement. Judge recognise such "stamp duty paid" Agreement, if presented as "EVIDENCE" in Court, during a Legal dispute like when landlord wants to take Possession of his House, through the Court and Tenant does not want to vacate.
But if the Landlord refuses to collect or collects and refuses to REMIT to FIRS, he puts that agreement and himself in Tax default.
Ask anyone in that your US or UK, the easiest way to get jailed, if everything else fails, is through Tax Evasion, even if it is $10.
Go and read the case of Actors like Wesley Snipes
. undecided


Don't get me wrong, your argument is convincing. It is Buhari's Nigeria. All is possible. Entire courts are being bribed. Justice is for sale in Buhari's Nigeria.
I am not arguing and neither am l trying to convince anyone!
I am just stating facts of the Law. All these for the benefit of others who "genuinely" might not be aware, so that it does not come to them as a surprise, if they ever have to try to eject a difficult but Smart Tenant or one who employs a Smart Attorney. undecided grin This issue has nothing to do with Buhari. The Law, is the Law.

Cheers,


Lastpage!
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by lastpage: 7:15am On Jun 12
Badgers14:
Maybe lastpage have a point about the stamp Duty stuff but the analogy he is using to express it is very very faulty in my opinion.

You can't compare an agreement between a landlord and their tenant to a contract killings. Those are two different things.. one is legal business and the later is an illegal business. It is not illegal for a landlord to rent a house to a tenant, but it is illegal for someone to contract a killer to kill another person..Just my opinion though.

You are thinking and writing like a 'layman', as people who are not trained in law are addressed.
You cant interpret an "analogy:, literally. What you are missing in my analogy, which was a perfect analogy, is that l am not talking about the "nature of the infraction", l was explaining to you (in the simplest terms one can explain to someone not learned in Law) that particular principle that you cannot build 'Something', on 'Nothing'. Once an Agreement or Contract is VOID, whatever you build on it, will also be VOID.
Whether it is a Business, a Contract to supply Water, An agreement to Rent a House, a Contract to Kill, Anything you can think of!
Once the "legal foundation" upon which is it placed is "legally faulty", you cannot seek any legal redress, based on it.
Go and ask Lawyers that are seasoned, they would easily tell you this.


Another thing to be mindful of is, if the evidence (tenancy agreement) was successfully suppressed in court and the court ruled it invalid... what other legal documents does the tenant have that gave them the legal rights to be in possession of the property?

Since the tenancy agreement is INVALID, the so called tenant can not be called tenant again, wouldn't that be criminal trespassing? Because the individual doesn't have any legal right to have possession of the said flat/shop as the case might be?

You can't have it both ways, it is either you are in the unit legally that is a tenant or you are not, in that case a criminal taking possession of what he doesn't have any legal right to have the possession of.

Hmmm.... grin You make me laugh! You dont know how the law works at all.
What we want, 'as laymen', and what the Law requires from all of us, are two different things!
If you put yourself in "jeopardy" as l said before, your Tenant will have it both ways and unfortunately, it might make you so angry you might commit another offense that would send Landlord to jail. grin
There is nothing like criminal Trespassing, for a sitting Tenant, unless the Court says so.
Even when the tenant is owing you and his Tenancy has elapsed, he becomes a 'Statutory Tenant' and you can claim Criminal Trespass and you cant deny him entry or throw him out forcefully. You still need to go through the Court.
As a Landlord, you need to study the Law properly, know your Rights, your Duties and your Obligations.

In summary, In a Landlord/Tenant dispute, the tenancy Agreement is the major document that is used to determine and decide the case, because the Law/Courts will respects "Private agreements" willingly entered into, as long as that Agreement is not in itself, Unlawful (You see why l used an analogy of an unlawful agreement, in my example to you?).

if your Rent Agreement is Inadmissible as Evidence (due to your making it so, by not paying Stamp Duty on it), the Court will still decide your case but that "Agreement" wont be admitted as evidence in your favor!
So, if it is what you are relying on, to get a tenant out of your property, that 'Court action' will fail. You wont be able to eject that Tenant because you will lose the Case. grin
And once you lose in Court, your tenant will continue to occupy the Rent, and you have to find other "clever ways" using a good Lawyer, to get the tenant out. (For example, l will allow the Tenant to fall Victim of an offense that the Statutes forbid which does not need an agreement, to prove in Court! undecided I wont expatiate on this any further) grin
The Tenant will leave eventually but it will take some time, longer than necessary and that will be an embarrassment to the Landlord, not to mention the financial loss.

I have seen a Landlord that collected "Agreement Fee" and ate it but did not produce any "Agreement"..
Tenant showed his payment Receipt to the Judge, which shows he paid for "Agreement".
Judge dismissed Landlords Application and asked the tenant to chose between "One Month and Two years", when he knows he would have found another House. Tenant chose Two years (maximum) and lived in that House, on same amount, taunting the Landlord all those two years, before moving out.

Moreover in a landlord and tenant dispute, the majority of the cases, the bone of contention is rent due not possession of the property because the landlord owns the building, that is his property, he just have to file proper notices to evict the tenant from his property.
Cheers!


You are wrong Sir!
Rent due and not paid, is just a small part of it.

It could be "noise", disorderly or nuisance behaviour like "partying all night" every time, It could even be 'physical fight' between Landlord's Wife and Tenant's Wife or landlord Son and Tenant's daughter grin One male, Single Tenant like that, will not stop banging landlords daughter and that drives the Landlord crazy and wants him out! grin )
It could be landlord wants to raise Rent, it could be he want the property for his own use, it could be they come home late at 2am and starts to banging the gate, it could be damage to the Tiles and other accessories of the House, l can go on and on because l have seen many, many in my young life.
If you file proper notices but commit a blunder like not paying Stamp duty (a very, very small fraction of the rent, IMO, then you could be in for a very long and torturous experience with some stubborn tenants.

Like l have said in one of my previous post some months back, the Rent/Lease Agreement is EVERYTHING, pay attention to it, if you want a peaceful and easy relationship with your tenant.

Let us call it a day on the subject. It has been nice chatting with you guys, l guess the point is made and we are all enriched by the discussions.


Lastpage!

5 Likes

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by AngelicBeing: 8:08am On Jun 12
@ lastpage, thanks for your detailed explanation, you have done justice to the topic, nice reading from you, you have been missing from property section, where have you been?

2 Likes

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by Badgers14: 8:24am On Jun 12
@lastpage, I don't want to quote you to avoid blocking off a huge chunk of this page.

But like I said, the example you used was a WRONG example!!.

You don't know what I do for a living, ... I don't even know you personally. my profession is irrelevant here anyways because I am not advertising my business or anything like that and it's was not the subject of the conversation.. I just found the stamp Duty thing interesting and I have swapped few messages to other people that found it interesting as well or bizarre as the case might be.

In your posts, you do somewhat contradict your position, not sure why.

Again, I will suggest to tenants don't bank on all these write ups here , thinking ehn ehn because you the tenant did not pay for the stamp Duty, the landlord can't enforce the agreement... be very careful!! The law don't always reason that way... not every judge will listen to that..

Also in legal proceedings there are lots of things that can go wrong in a case even if the "village people " notarized the agreement and stamp Duty was paid.

It remains to be seen, the legal precedent (if any) if this particular issue " suppressing evidence (tenancy agreement) because of stamp Duty was not paid " have been reversed on appeal or a higher court have interpreted this in a different way and ruled likewise.

I am officially signing out on this topic.

Thanks.

Please don't quote me, I am not feeling fine.
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by lastpage: 9:41am On Jun 12
Badgers14:

It remains to be seen, the legal precedent (if any) if this particular issue of " suppressing evidence (tenancy agreement) because of stamp Duty was not paid" have been reversed on appeal or a higher court have interpreted this in a different way and ruled likewise.

I am officially signing out on this topic.

Thanks.

Please don't quote me, I am not feeling fine.

I can understand you are not feeling fine, in the real sense of it but can it be this bad?. grin
How you still dont get it, after all this explanation, baffles me. shocked
This issue is about complying with the "Tax Law" of the land (Nigeria) as it concerns agreements and other related matters

You keep using words "carelessly and loosely or maybe you dont know exactly what they mean, in legal terms.
You are saying a Judge can suppress Evidence? Can an "invalid document" be considered evidence?
When a Judge throws out a Document or refuse to admit it to Evidence, do you call that "suppression of evidence"?
shocked grin

Do you actually know exactly what "suppression of evidence" means in a Court setting?
Incase you dont know, "Suppressing Evidence" is a criminal offense and to imply a Judge can "suppress evidence", simply because the evidence-document IS NOT EVIDENCIAL and cannot stand the standard required by the Law, is just..... (I wont use the word on my mind but l am sure you get the drift).

The fact that you dont "understand something or cant rap-your-head around it", does not make it wrong or impossible, it is you that is yet to understand it and that is not a crime nor wrong, understanding is a process, as long as we keep an open mind.
Do you think Govt that made that 'Stamp Duty Tax Law', does not know what could happen if you refuse to Stamp Duty your Agreement?

I have tried to 'broaden your knowledge' of this matter (Yes, l dont need to know you or know what you do for a living (It certainly has nothing to do with Taxation or Law), ... to know your level of understanding, in these matter)) but you just kept throwing Mud back. .
This is not just "Landlord and Tenant" issue, it is "Tax-Legal matter o"!)
All your arguments are pedestrian and showing lack of basic understanding of how the law works.

You dont have to agree with what l say but l urge you to not Stamp Duty your Rent Agreement and then try to refer to it, present it as 'evidence' of your Contractual dealings with your tenant, in a Court proceeding, you will come back here and confess. undecided grin

We are all learning but you dont need to keep saying things that are tangential to Knowledge!

Good thing is, those that value knowledge will investigate what l wrote, speak to practicing Lawyers about it and increase their pool of knowledge.

Am done Sir.


Lastapge!

4 Likes

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by lastpage: 9:44am On Jun 12
AngelicBeing:
@ lastpage, thanks for your detailed explanation, you have done justice to the topic, nice reading from you, you have been missing from property section, where have you been?

How are you sir, its been quite awhile.
I have "retired" from the usual frontal posting on NL, l just read and pass-by most times now. grin grin
It is my good friend @gbadexy that drew me out.

I think the pages can do with less of my crayons grin grin

Hope you are doing good Sir?



Cheers.

Lastpage

2 Likes

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by temi4fash(m): 9:55am On Jun 12
lastpage:
Go and read any Textbook on the Law of Evidence.
It will explain to you in more detail, why some EVIDENCE, though TRUE, become INADMISSIBLE in a Court of Law.
When Evidence is Tainted (Like a Tenancy Agreement that is not Stamp Duty paid), it becomes inadmissible as evidence, for the Party who is seeking to use it as a defense.

****Not withstanding, l will take the time to answer each of your posers, (by putting the answers below each line), l am sure someone might gain from them
I also like you as a person, from time. grin




Cheers,


Lastpage!

How much is the stamp duty
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by PAPAFEELERS: 10:17am On Jun 12
Lastpage is a great contributor of knowledge in this forum , we learn alot from his post because of his education, experience, exposure, content and versatility.

3 Likes

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by Blessedsunny2(m): 10:20am On Jun 12
rmx:


Nice . Say hello to your brother . I know him cool

Thanks ❤️
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by Badgers14: 10:23am On Jun 12
@lastpage, I am not sure if you are trying to ridicule your intelligence or what??

Again, comparing a landlord - tenant agreement to an agreement between someone hiring a contract killer to kill someone .. was a WRONG example!!.

Not sure what your profession is or how long you have been around the legal world... you don't know it all, no one does.

"Suppressed evidence" like I used it in my post just means that, that evidence cannot be admitted in court... cannot be used. An opposing counsel can file a motion to suppress an evidence and a judge can grant that motion and that evidence is suppressed. Cannot be used.
( motion to suppress an evidence= an objection by an opposing counsel asking the court not to admit an evidence)

Like I said and I repeat, a tenant should not read all this write ups here and puff out there chest thinking because they didn't pay the stamp Duty on their Tenancy agreement, the landlord cannot use it in court. That's not entirely true..

Remember, a Judge in Ikoyi might see a case differently from a judge in surulere. A magistrate in Onitsha might see a case differently than a magistrate in Enugu.. again, there are lots of things that go on in a case more especiallyin the court room - court room skills.

In big law, some firms actually have a unit that profiles a judge. as part of their duties. I mean have a profile on the judges.. what they are like , how they view things, there legal background, how they ruled in certain cases etc. That shapes the trial lawyers when they prepare for a case, write their briefs and when they actually come in the court.

Again, all these Yada yada here.. if a higher court have ruled about this issue in a certain way... they set a legal precedence on it. I don't know yet about this issue that's why I say it remains to be seen if they have done so. A lower court cannot reverse a higher court. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if that happens in Nigeria.

Keep in mind, it depends on what the issue is between the landlord and tenant. Check this out , if the issue was rent.. tenant owes 1 year of rent and landlord served the tenant proper notices.. in court tenant is saying ehn ehn landlord cannot enforce the tenancy agreement because them the tenant did not pay the stamp duty?? Not that many judges or magistrates will agree with that.

2 Likes

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by gbadexy(m): 10:38am On Jun 12
lastpage:


How are you sir, its been quite awhile.
I have "retired" from the usual frontal posting on NL, l just read and pass-by most times now. grin grin
It is my good friend @gbadexy that drew me out.

I think the pages can do with less of my crayons grin grin

Hope you are doing good Sir?



Cheers.

Lastpage
It's a privilege having you around to give invaluable advice and contributions free of charge.
We appreciate you sir.

1 Like

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by spyder880(m): 10:38am On Jun 12
I have been studying and taking notes about this landlord/tenants relationship as being analysed by all our contributors here, I must say they are very revealing indeed.

@ Lastpage, Diordaves, Badgers14 and all others, I duff my hat for you all.

5 Likes

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by mountmoriah(m): 10:47am On Jun 12
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0-7-0-6-2-3-2-9-5-0-5 for more info

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by EgunMogaji2: 10:55am On Jun 12
rmx:


Nice . Say hello to your brother . I know him cool

Small world.

2 Likes

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by dapotemi: 11:10am On Jun 12
Wow so so revealing and many thanks to lastpage and all other beautiful contributors... My own case is quite a dilemma... I have stays in a rented apartment for about 5 years now, and you know what, like lastpage said, I paid for agreement, agency fee, caution fee but I did not get a single document... In fact, since have been paying rent (Tru bank transfers of course), my landlord/agent just acknowledge with a text message and that is it.. He's not disturbing me, and am not disturbing him, we are cool... I have never received a single receipt for all payment, neither did I get any document termed agreement. I have never been worried, seems I am now.. I pay a little above a mil.. What do you think lastpage and all other contributor pls?

2 Likes 1 Share

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by OAKGroup(m): 11:19am On Jun 12
dapotemi:
Wow so so revealing and many thanks to lastpage and all other beautiful contributors... My own case is quite a dilemma... I have stays in a rented apartment for about 5 years now, and you know what, like lastpage said, I paid for agreement, agency fee, caution fee but I did not get a single document... In fact, since have been paying rent (Tru bank transfers of course), my landlord/agent just acknowledge with a text message and that is it.. He's not disturbing me, and am not disturbing him, we are cool... I have never received a single receipt for all payment, neither did I get any document termed agreement. I have never been worried, seems I am now.. I pay a little above a mil.. What do you think lastpage and all other contributor pls?
Sir, here's my own piece of advice, let it slide, some agents/house owners are fetish, kindly don't go into argument.
Hope you've been working on Ur own house all these while sir!

1 Like

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by EgunMogaji2: 11:22am On Jun 12
dapotemi:
Wow so so revealing and many thanks to lastpage and all other beautiful contributors... My own case is quite a dilemma... I have stays in a rented apartment for about 5 years now, and you know what, like lastpage said, I paid for agreement, agency fee, caution fee but I did not get a single document... In fact, since have been paying rent (Tru bank transfers of course), my landlord/agent just acknowledge with a text message and that is it.. He's not disturbing me, and am not disturbing him, we are cool... I have never received a single receipt for all payment, neither did I get any document termed agreement. I have never been worried, seems I am now.. I pay a little above a mil.. What do you think lastpage and all other contributor pls?

After 5 years? Please just let sleeping dogs lie.

Hopefully you’ll be transitioning from there to your own house but if you happen to rent then please get an agreement.

2 Likes

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by OAKGroup(m): 11:40am On Jun 12
EgunMogaji2:


After 5 years? Please just let sleeping dogs lie.

Hopefully you’ll be transitioning from there to your own house but if you happen to rent then please get an agreement.
Grt advice sir.

1 Like

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by KelvinCoaster(m): 12:14pm On Jun 12
lastpage:


How are you sir, its been quite awhile.
I have "retired" from the usual frontal posting on NL, l just read and pass-by most times now. grin grin
It is my good friend @gbadexy that drew me out.

I think the pages can do with less of my crayons grin grin

Hope you are doing good Sir?



Cheers.

Lastpage

I just love the coloured words,reminds me of medical school.You just need those crayons to highlight points inthe text books.
I have learnt alot from all your posts..Knowledge is power! #FeelingLearned.

1 Like 1 Share

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by rmx: 12:58pm On Jun 12
EgunMogaji2:


Small world.

Absolutely, bought all my Spanish tiles from him

1 Like

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