davidylan:

What about the muslims in Nigeria, Sudan, Jordan, Somalia, Indonesia, Spain, Chechnya?

What universal culture makes them to martyr innocent civilians in the hopes of 72 virgins in the hereafter?

these countries aren't really "western countries" at least not in my definition
and the fundamentalist muslims in the western ones (let's count spain) are either immigrants/ 2nd generation or just the few fundamentalist muslims you can count
just as we have our fundamentalist christians even here in the liberal US.

There's a reason to it. Just as Bush has his "excuse" for invading iraq and creating the war that's causing the deaths of innocent civilians as well as soldiers.
"innocent" means different things to different people. we think ourselves innocent and the radicals as evil. but guess what? they think themselves innocent as the US as the evil.

yeah. you can never get culture.

parents still wonders at the american culture where people are allowed to go almsot bare naked on the streets. lol
that's alien to middle easterners where their culture is to cover the females up head to toe.

davidylan:

Hopefully what you mean here is that both muslims and christians go to separate places that are both called paradise! Christians certainly do not go to a paradise where there is no worship and sex, booze, homosexualism and hedonism are primary "rewards" for "steadfast worship"!

I made that comment sarcastically so don't think i'm agreeing with you.
if you read my previous posts, you'll see that this is why i differenciated heaven and paradise in the first place.

christians go to heaven (w/ exception of jehovah witness peeps).
then i guess you're jehovah witness 'cause most other christians refer to it as HEAVEN. i can't emphasize it more.

WesleyanA:

these countries aren't really "western countries" at least not in my definition
and the fundamentalist muslims in the western ones (let's count spain) are either immigrants/ 2nd generation or just the few fundamentalist muslims you can count
just as we have our fundamentalist christians even here in the liberal US.

Islam in western countries is primarily an immigrant religion! America just got her first muslim member of legislature more than 230 yrs after independence! That is probably why most muslim fundamentalists would be immigrants. What about teh muslims in northern nigeria and sudan? Are they immigrants too? Do they have the same culture as muslims from Jordan and Iran?

WesleyanA:

There's a reason to it. Just as Bush has his "excuse" for invading iraq and creating the war that's causing the deaths of innocent civilians as well as soldiers.

Could you pls be more specific as to what this nebulous reason may be? Beyond the oft abused civilization, culture and injustice?

WesleyanA:

"innocent" means different things to different people. we think ourselves innocent and the radicals as evil. but guess what? they think themselves innocent as the US as the evil.

If you had lost a family member during Sept 11 i'm sure you wont be rationalising away the meaning of innocen civilians!

davidylan:

Islam in western countries is primarily an immigrant religion! America just got her first muslim member of legislature more than 230 years after independence! That is probably why most muslim fundamentalists would be immigrants. What about the muslims in northern nigeria and sudan? Are they immigrants too? Do they have the same culture as muslims from Jordan and Iran?
Could you please be more specific as to what this nebulous reason may be? Beyond the oft abused civilization, culture and injustice?
If you had lost a family member during Sept 11 i'm sure you wont be rationalising away the meaning of innocen civilians!

NIGERIA AND SUDAN AREN'T LIBERAL/ SECULAR WESTERN COUNTRIES get it?!!!! lol
there is no where in the nigerian constitution that protects human rights like western countries (even if there is, one wouldn't believe it) so your argument is null.

you can't compare a nigerian muslim to a US muslim. they will definitely have different opinions about stuff that is shaped by the place/environment, family they grew up in.

If you lost a family member in Iraq (many civilians there were killed) you wouldn't call America innocent either.
watch farenheit 9/11 and see the reaction of the iraqian families.

yes both families will be innocent duh. but then why justify one side and not the other?

The muslim nations are based on the religion of "Islam" so their war obviously will be "based on islam"
America is based on the ideology of "Liberty, equality and democracy" so their war obviously will be "because of liberty, democracy freedom"

but then these wars have their own deep reason why they happened rather than the superflivous, obstentious "yay liberty" "yay islam" reasons.

WesleyanA:

NIGERIA AND SUDAN AREN'T LIBERAL/ SECULAR WESTERN COUNTRIES get it?!!!! lol
there is no where in the nigerian constitution that protects human rights like western countries (even if there is, one wouldn't believe it) so your argument is null.
you can't compare a nigerian muslim to a US muslim. they will definitely have different opinions about stuff that is shaped by the place/environment, family they grew up in.

this is getting more ridiculous than i thought! So the difference between a US and Nigerian muslim is based on the protection of human rights as enshrined in the constitution? Lord!
Was there no human rights laws in the UK? Oh sorry i forgot you said the home grown terrorists were 2nd generation immigrants who were born in the UK, funny how the liberal British environment did not influence them in the positive!
And who said Nigeria had no laws in the constitution that protects human rights like western countries? Methinks you would better keep quiet than keep showing yourself up as an arrogant individual without knowledge! Have you ever bothered to read Nigeria's constitution? On what basis do you then accuse it of not having human rights laws? How can you believe what you have no knowledge about anyway?

Pray! What is the difference between a Hausa and a Yoruba muslim? Where both not affected by the Danish cartoons? Or are there human rights laws only for yorubas?

WesleyanA:

The muslim nations are based on the religion of "Islam" so their war obviously will be "based on islam"
America is based on the ideology of "Liberty, equality and democracy" so their war obviously will be "because of liberty, democracy freedom"

but then these wars have their own deep reason why they happened rather than the superflivous, obstentious "yay liberty" "yay islam" reasons.

What really were you getting at here? That it is perfectly ok for muslim nations to sponsor terrorism (that is encouraged in the quran you have never read!) since their govt is based on the religion while America MUST base their own response on "liberty", "democracy" and "freedom", alien principles to a deadly enemy?
What really was your point here? It must have been lost in a slew of high fallutin but senseless verbosity.

so yeah. people usually think Islam is bad christianity is good just because the recent problem going on.
If USA wasn't as secualarized and christianity was still the thing just as in muslim countries.

The war will be different. US won't even be the same. christianity would have as bad rep. as islam

but fortgunately, christianity is practiced by people in their personal space and not allowed to be the determining factor in people's lifes in all things political/ national
in essence, it's being suppresed to fit in with the civilized western image.

so yeah. I still belief it's a question of civilization and culture why the whole thing is going on and not religion.

'cause you still haven't told me why America became more civilized after it replaced puritan christian ideology with "liberty freedon equality" (well actually civilization caused the replacement.)
and how come southerners used the bible to defend slavery (something that wouldn't happen today where the meaning of equality have been questioned thoroughly close to and after the US civil war)

stop being obnoxious. you know what i'm talking about. quit twisting my words
for example, An american muslim can go out w/o all the garb covering her face and (especially if they are not immigrants or kids of immigrants)
A middle eastern muslim or even one in christian parts of nigeria will go out fully covered (usually in black ) that you can't see their face.
the western ones have more rights.
there most certainly is a difference between a nigerian muslim and american muslim (i'm not talking about recent immigrants)


Ok. how come the govt. didn't influence the second generation immigrants in the positive? you should know the answer, they live w/ their parents that were 1st generation immigrants and that's where the primary influence is.
and and then we all know what's going on in Europe and how minorities, immigrants aren't integrated.
That's why it'll be rare for a 3rd or 4th generation muslim to be part of the terrorism pact. their connection with the islamic world is close to null and the religion they practice will be more influenced with the liberal culture they live in.

What really were you getting at here? That it is perfectly ok for muslim nations to sponsor terrorism (that is encouraged in the quran you have never read!) since their govt is based on the religion while America MUST base their own response on "liberty", "democracy" and "freedom", alien principles to a deadly enemy?
What really was your point here? It must have been lost in a slew of high fallutin but senseless verbosity.

Americans DID base their response on liberty democracy and freedom which is alien to their enemy
and the middle easterners DID base their response on islam which is equally alien to Americans.

that's my point. different sides, diffrerent opinions.
It's a clash of civilizations (one still based on religion practiced in its bare centuries old form and the other more new and modernized, recent ideologies)

I am anti-war so i support neither party. american nor middle east.

maybe you need me to break this post down to kindergarten language for you?

my last post on this thread. I'll come back for you tomorrow.
you still haven't proved to me how Islam is a bad religion. even if we went a little off topic

If you base it on just the book (written centuries ago) you most definitely will find faults with it just like you would find faults with the bible (also written millenas ago).


so yeah. based it on the culture and level of civility of those who practice it and not on the religion itself. that's my opinion that you can't change since i have yet to see the logic in yours.

You don't even have an argument. except: quran mentions 72 virgins therefore the religion must be bad.
what if there hadn't been a feminist revolution? what if women haven't gained rights yet (these were once radical ideas to conservative christians)
what if they're place in society was still as housewives and nothing more (mind you, christianity didn't bring women rights)
will we still have qualms with the qurans' 72 virgins for each man?

funny how when I was in Nigeria, when muslims and christians argued on religion, 72 virgins or gender bias issues never usually came up (except when people who've visited or witnessed other countries discussed it). yeah you guessed the reason right!
the only things that usually locally came up was how muslims did sharia or sacrificed cows. lol and this coming from christians.

we've been westernized and know our place in society, our rights as females e.t.c so we can stand up to the bias that's still practiced in the muslim AND AFRICAN nations. but does that mean that all muslims and Africans are uncivilized and don't respect their females? NO!!

so there!

WesleyanA:

You don't even have an argument. except: quran mentions 72 virgins therefore the religion must be bad.

I know this is not your idea as it is an inference to one in your discussant. However, the Qur'an does not mention the specific number of virgins to be awarded those who fight others and die in *Allah's cause. Rather, it is in the Hadith that a specified number of harems are mentioned.

The point is that, Muhammad claimed to have been sent by the same God of the Biblical prophets. When he could not defend his convoluted claims in light of the character of that same God and the deportment of His prophets, he resorted to violence, blind hatred and sexual perversion as means of propagating his religion.

WesleyanA:

what if there hadn't been a feminist revolution? what if women haven't gained rights yet (these were once radical ideas to conservative christians)

Feminism is antithetical to Biblical revelation and appeals only to restless women who themselves have failed to see the beauty of their calling in Scripture.

WesleyanA:

what if they're place in society was still as housewives and nothing more (mind you, christianity didn't bring women rights)

Women were never in bondage nor reserved as recruits for the kitchen; and any claim that Christianity didn't bring women rights is a weak assumption stemming from a closed mind to the open revelation of Scripture.

WesleyanA:

will we still have qualms with the qurans' 72 virgins for each man?

Yes, we still do - back then in Muhammad's day; in the present (Pakistani women raped and punished by Islamic law, for example); and in the hereafter when women will be reserved only for the purpose of satisfying the base pleasures of ardent Muslim males.

WesleyanA:

funny how when I was in Nigeria, when muslims and christians argued on religion, 72 virgins or gender bias issues never usually came up (except when people who've visited or witnessed other countries discussed it).

You're quite perceptive on that, as I only became quite sensitized about the issue after having been exposed to a broader context of religious persuasions and practices.

WesleyanA:

the only things that usually locally came up was how muslims did sharia or sacrificed cows. lol and this coming from christians.

Sharia is not the main issue of Christian and non-Christian concerns in religious discourses. It is rather the whole pedestal upon which Islam rests: Muhammad's claim as a true prophet of God and Islam as the only right religion before that same God!

WesleyanA:

we've been westernized and know our place in society, our rights as females e.t.c so we can stand up to the bias that's still practiced in the muslim AND AFRICAN nations.

The bias runs rife as well in Christianized and secular societies and cultures of the West and Europe!

WesleyanA:

but does that mean that all muslims and Africans are uncivilized and don't respect their females? NO!!

Applause!! You're very correct there, gurl!

Interesting,

PLEASE BEFORE READING TAKE NOTE THAT MY OBSERVATIONS DOES NOT FAVOUR ANY PARTY, AND PLEASE LET US BE FREE AND FAIR, AND I THINK THAT\'S THE ESSENCE OF AN INTERNET FORUM LIKE NAIRALAND.

I have been observing this debate/arguments/abuses/challenges/wisdoms, blah blah and I come to realized that there are some inpatients members of this forum who are eager to abuse each other\'s religion, this is BAAADDDD attitude that I don\'t know the time it will change in Nigerian\'s behaviour, I don\'t know when such thing will stop.


MY OBSERVATIONS:

1. The thread was posted by a Muslim Lady, in trying to enlight her Muslims members of the forum, she also highlighted that thread is for MUSLIMS.

2. I don\'t see a reason why the arguments changed into RELIGIOUS ABUSES,

3. I also observed that Christian Members of the Forum whom the thread was not meant for was attacked the thread. Quote from: mukina2 on October 04, 2006, 12:04 AM please am on my knees begging all those that like to go off-topic in their attacks against islam , please leave this thread for us, please

4. The entire thread later changed into arguments/abuses, and infact non sense.

5. I also observed the intention of the thread was diverted simply because those who the thread was not meant for respond to the thread which is of course, not a attitude to towards posts and forums over the Internet.

6. I finally observed the arguments/abuses might continue WITHOUT MAKING SENSE AT ALL, since the member that posted the thread made an ettique which was not followed by those wishing to make a comment.

RECOMMENDATIONS:

1. If a member of a forum made a thread that targeted a particular Religion, and wishing member of that Religion to respond and especially stated so, I recommend for the sake of UNDERSTANDING AND RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE member of another religion should not attack such a thread.

2. There should be a mechanism for REPORTING ABUSES to simply stop thread being turning INTO RELIGIOUS ABUSES.

3. I will also recommend that THE WEBMASTER OF NAIRALAND should put an eye over such a cases, that may easily turn into something or anything that WILL SPOIL THE NAME AND OBJECTIVES OF THIS FAMOUS NAIRALAND FORUM.

4. I recommend this post should be mail to the webmaster (which I have to) for further observations, and to drag attention of other members of the forum to be in good understanding with each other especially when it comes to religious debate so that they will try to AVOID RELIGIOUS ABUSES.

5. I finally recommend for the sake of peace, my observation should be understood with good intention, I am not trying to say this group says bad to this group or something else please.

Finally, If there is any error in my observations or recommendations I stand to be corrected, Thanks.

Nairaland Posts Observer.

WANTED TO REMIND MEMBERS OF THE RULES GOVERNING THE ENTIRE NAIRALAND FORUM

Rules can be found at: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-1026.0.html

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. . . And your point is??

, he's totally deluded!
there aren't that many personal attacks here in this thread, please trouble yourself to read through again and you'll see for yourself.

Well, it all depends - and as a former Muslim I can understand where they are coming from. Anything that questions the claims of Muhammad and the authenticity of Islam is regarded as an insult and personal attacks.

Perhaps, quite a few perceived personal attacks have been posted on this thread - or so I pressume from the tone of the posters. But while not accusing anyone (and I'm ready to offer unconditional apologies to all who feel offended), i would rather we continue to have good exchanges of ideas and knowledge on various subjects.

@twinstaiye; welcome to the forum is this the same twins of MN.com mor net
Please continue to post any thing that might be of relevance to the muslim ummah. Once I start reading a post and I see blasphemous writings there, I stop bc ki oju ma ri ibi, gbogbo ara loogun re. I also want to say kudos to Observer01, glad to see that some people exist that still practice sensibility.

Again, muslims, ignore the distractors and address your post to muslims. You watch and see what will happen in a litlle while.

Again, keep the faith, it is true, firm and sure.

ma salam

@observer01 (not surprised) and Ayinba1,
The only reason you guys are petrified of an open discussion forum taking a close look at the Quran and Islam is the very same reason Islam is receiving negative attention in the world today and it also explains why you are still in it. Critique and lateral reasoning (a.k.a asking intelligent questions) are not encouraged or permitted in Islam, in fact muhammed discouraged it from the very beggining because such will expose the false foundation of his ideology called Islam.

Why is Islam attracting a lot of negativity in the world today? Believe me, it is not just because of terrorist bombers; it is because any attempt by any 'free minded' individual to critique or logically appraise the doctrine and tenets of the "faith" is met with brickwall and threat of violence and death. Why? because there are a lot of "things" to hide in Islam??: that is why your Oustass always advice you not to ask questions but simply obey.
Unfortunately, such anti-intellectual stance has no place in this modern world. Islam is a "belief" or an "opinion" to which a [b]"person"[/b] subscribes; just like Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, etc. Therefore, just like any opinion, it is open to critique, whether to your taste or not. Freedom of speech, thought and expression includes freedom to critique, appraise and even ridicule or insult another opinion or belief BUT not another person. Any distasteful critique of Islam/Quran should not be taken a personal attack, because it is not. We are simply expressing our freedom guranteed under our rights and priviledge of living in a "free world". Get in and move in to this century.

It is not true that Muslims are not tolerant of dialogs, what Muslims hate is express disrespect for anything Islam. Call to the way of God with wisdom and fine teachings and when you need to argue, you do it beautifully. Its a good thing that an observer of this thread is able to pick up negative trends that non Muslims introduced into the thread.

The Quran is a living book, maybe in a way unknown to many non-Muslims. The Quran is a book of miracle. For example in Surat Naml, chapter 27, when Allah told the story of Sulayman, a particular incidence was narrated when Suleyman got the throne of Bilkis to be transported to him instantaneously (verses 38-41) over a distance. As an engineer, I take this to be a prophecy of the invention of a machine/system that will be able to move three-dimensional material objects over space instantaneously just like the internet does for data.

So if tomorrow such a machine in invented and patented, I will not be too surprised to allow the invention and its benefits to derail me from the glorious path of Islam.

@nuru,

Calm reasoning, well done. However, I wonder if Muslims really take the time to respect and be more tolerant to other faiths. As a former Muslimah, I know first hand that Islam itself is intolerant or respectful to other faiths. Many Muslims today exude great friendliness and tolerance towards other people; but if one were to go by the Qur'an, such Muslims would find themselves denounced as hypocrites.

nuru:

The Quran is a living book, maybe in a way unknown to many non-Muslims. The Quran is a book of miracle. For example in Surat Naml, chapter 27, when Allah told the story of Sulayman, a particular incidence was narrated when Suleyman got the throne of Bilkis to be transported to him instantaneously (verses 38-41) over a distance. As an engineer, I take this to be a prophecy of the invention of a machine/system that will be able to move three-dimensional material objects over space instantaneously just like the internet does for data.

So if tomorrow such a machine in invented and patented, I will not be too surprised to allow the invention and its benefits to derail me from the glorious path of Islam.

It is mischievous to refer to such a folklore as a "prophecy". Is every folklore to be taken as "prophecy"?

to show you an even greater "miracle", witches and wizards have been able to transport themselves instantenously, the yorubas also have such folklores too!

davidylan,please try as much as possible to ignore weslayan.
After some discussion on a thread regarding why  African Americans are underachievers,her statements were so bizarre that I and several others including thiefofhearts enquired to know if she was breastfed by a full blooded Naija woman.

I came to a conclusion based on several other things she said,that she was at best a junior in high school and so understood where exactly she was coming from.
This is not meant to be insultive,the girl is still reading for SAT (WAEC),it is a futile effort attempting a discussion with her.

from Quran to what i dnt know . .haba . .

muki muki.
By the way,who first called you muki muki?

babyosisi:

muki muki.
By the way,who first called you muki muki?

Would that be Gwaine??

babyosisi:

After some discussion on a thread regarding why African Americans are underachievers,her statements were so bizarre that I and several others including thiefofhearts enquired to know if she was breastfed by a full blooded Naija woman.

I used to think that African American women were underachievers; but then after spending time being exposed to so many of them, I quickly had to change my concept on that. I think most African American women, if given the same enabling environment, will be number one in defining success. Well, just my opinion.

The women are hard working no doubt,the men however need a quick kick somewhere,to wake 'em up.

Very true, Babyosisi. That I'm a man doesn't mean I can't agree with you on that; and it's really shameful what most guys will do with their lives and end up as another statistical number. I wasn't given a kick; but i'm glad that I'm not on the highway to being another statistical figure on the rollcall of failures (or, as the typical yankee calls it, LOSER!!).

babyosisi:

davidylan,please try as much as possible to ignore weslayan.
After some discussion on a thread regarding why African Americans are underachievers,her statements were so bizarre that I and several others including thiefofhearts enquired to know if she was breastfed by a full blooded Naija woman.

I came to a conclusion based on several other things she said,that she was at best a junior in high school and so understood where exactly she was coming from.
This is not meant to be insultive,the girl is still reading for SAT (WAEC),it is a futile effort attempting a discussion with her.

Thanks for the advice. I thought so too and stopped arguing pointlessly with someone who says there is gender bias in the bible simply because her "pastor" thinks so too despite the glaring statements from the bible.

Like you rightly said, she's 17! I had to find out when i argued with her once and i was having difficulting figuring out if she was just plain daft or too young!

babyosisi:

davidylan,please try as much as possible to ignore weslayan.
After some discussion on a thread regarding why African Americans are underachievers,her statements were so bizarre that I and several others including thiefofhearts enquired to know if she was breastfed by a full blooded Naija woman.

I came to a conclusion based on several other things she said,that she was at best a junior in high school and so understood where exactly she was coming from.
This is not meant to be insultive,the girl is still reading for SAT (WAEC),it is a futile effort attempting a discussion with her.

You didn't have to exaggerate it to that extent. My statements weren't bizarre. They come from my perspective and point of view as a student (living in a segregated part of the city and attending an extremely diverse high school). Actually, I found some of your statements really weird.

I am Nigerian but that doesn't mean that i'll agree with all Nigerians comments against African Americans. I state my opinion and not what others expect my opinion to be.

I'm a senior by the way. 16 years old.

your conclusions about me weren't self derived. I mentioned it myself that i was a high school student.

davidylan:

Thanks for the advice. I thought so too and stopped arguing pointlessly with someone who says there is gender bias in the bible simply because her "pastor" thinks so too despite the glaring statements from the bible.

Like you rightly said, she's 17! I had to find out when i argued with her once and i was having difficulting figuring out if she was just plain daft or too young!

You stopped arguing because you had nothing else to defend.
You cannot proove a religion as illegitimate based on the content of scriptures. And your 'around the bush' arguments proved that.
There IS gender bias in the Bible. Even my pastor agrees with me is this point (why would I base my opinion about the bible on what a pastor tells me when I have one of my own to read ? I only used him as a source of authority as he is more knowledgeable on the bible than I am). It's time for you to quit twisting my words to make yourself sound good.

You mere two quotations from the bible is not evidence enough. Can you tell me why the pronoun "HE" is used to refer to God and also why "MAN" is used throughout the Bible If men and women were indeed equal.
I'm not saying the gender bias is something terrible or anything since i wouldn't imagine that there were female authority figures during the lord's time.

but why complain about gender bias in the quran? and use it in the process to judge all muslims.

Your last statement by itself i'm not really concerned about. (and this to Babyosisi as well) It's your problem if you find discussion with a 16 year old as being below your 'standards.'
I guess it's a "Nigerian thing" maybe not? lol

I do not consider myself inferior to any human. not even if you're 60yrs old.

WesleyanA:

I'm a senior by the way. 16 years old.

You're kidding, right?

I rest my case.

Well, I just thought she might be kidding about that number, though I don't mean it in any derogatory sense.

Even though I may not agree with some of her views on issues, I think she sounds quite intelligent for that age! There are indeed many people twice that age who can't even articulate a sensible sentence. Just wait to meet them on other fora, and then you'd wonder. Oh well, just my opinion anyway.

34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Davidylan, proove it that there is no gender bias in the bible (like you mentioned).
'cause i see that all the excitement from poking fun at some of the quran's misogynist verses (in previous pages of this thread) is getting at you.

Why also would there be a need to create a movement for biblical equality if it didn't exist in the first place?

The Quakers were one of the only progressive christian sects that allowed for equality in their churches starting in the 17th century("Quakers were heavily involved in the 19th century movement for women's rights in America; the landmark 1848 Seneca Falls Declaration was in large part the work of Quaker women, and has numerous Quaker signatories, well out of proportion to the number of Quakers in American society at large"
http://www.npg.si.edu/col/seneca/senfalls1.htm)

some passages in the Old Testament are some of the most disturbing things i've read (I bet there are also equally or maybe worse stuff in the quran). like females being forced to marry their rapist

28 “If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.
Deuteronomy 22: 28


But does this mean that Christianity is a false religion? NO!!

bari_kade:

Well, I just thought she might be kidding about that number, though I don't mean it in any derogatory sense.

Even though I may not agree with some of her views on issues, I think she sounds quite intelligent for that age! There are indeed many people twice that age who can't even articulate a sensible sentence. Just wait to meet them on other fora, and then you'd wonder. Oh well, just my opinion anyway.

there are a lot of young people with sound opinion
but then with people (like Davidylan) that would not seize to paste the fact that you're young (*and therefore dumb, immature, e.t.c*), many young people are discouraged from voicing their opinion.
I ain't scared though.

recently, a 9 year old's letter in response to an article in the NYtimes was acknowledged, reviewed and printed.
now that's something i've never seen before.
Davidylan (if he owned NYtimes, God forbid. lol) would have discarded that letter at first sight.

@WeslayanA,

I will not pretend knowledge that I don't yet have; however, the one funny thing I find people always doing is that they quote Judaistic laws to buttress their arguments against Christianity. There is no such law as Deut.22:29 passed onto Christians in the NT, and perhaps the reason for this is found in I Tim. 1:8-11 -

"⁸But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; ⁹Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, ¹⁰For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind (homosexuals), for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; ¹¹According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust."

I believe that the OT helps us understand where we are coming from so that we can better appreciate the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. Unless anyone can successfully prove that Christians are under the Mosaic Law when the Bible clearly says we are NOT, then it makes me wonder why people want to hold Christians accountable to what God doesn't hold them accountable to.

Indeed, there are so many young people who have rare gifts of insight - and though I, for one, may not agree with their ideas or persuasions, it really won't hurt to acknowledge the scholarship and insight of such rare minds. I think I've come a long way to changing some of my previously held concepts (and may I add, biases) after having been exposed to a wider sphere to see things first hand. But when it comes to faith, I always go by what the Bible says than what opinions people express - and there again, I should not expect everyone to accept my views; for afterall, they're just mine.

Blessings.